Regional Teams increasing the Salary Cap?

I just saw a news article which showed both Ospreys and Blues want to now increase the self imposed salary cap. I do find it ironic that the regions who have pleaded poverty for the past 2 seasons have suddenly had a change of heart regarding the salary cap given financially not a lot has changed. If anything they have more space within the cap as the central contracts only take up their share of the 40% for those players so they will have been able to spend the rest as an addition to their salary cap. I do suspect the change in management at the WRU has now resulted things going back to normal.

From a my perspective I hope the Dragons & Scarlets don't agree to this for purely selfish reason. Because being realistic the Dragons who don't spend anywhere near the current cap will no doubt get hit hard by player poaching from primarily what I suspect will be the Blues. Under the current restrictions the Blues cant really outbid us heavily for our own talent so in that sense the salary cap has worked to retain players for their respective regions, even though it has caused increased pressure from outside of Wales. If they don't agree I cannot see how the Blues and Ospreys can push through a salary cap rise.

It will at least keep things on parity in terms of spending between the 4 regions meaning that any success is had is purely from a equal footing basis. It would be wrong for the Blues to get themselves out of the pit they are in by poaching players from the Scarlets and Dragons only to make sure both sides end up beneath them and not from a viewpoint of developing their own team. You would think any salary cap increase they are asking for would be better spent on sorting their academy out and start developing some youngsters. At least the Ospreys have developed a hell of a lot of their own youth so you cant really fault them for that.

Anyone else think I am wrong on this and that the Blues/Ospreys will use that money to bring in top draw players in from outside of Wales? I've always thought the salary cap might come back to bite the Ospreys and Blues in the long run because now that they have entered into a PRL style agreement with the other 2 regions I cannot see why the financially poorer teams would ever vote to increase the cap as it would only serve to create a bigger gap between them.

As a Dragons fan, I have enjoyed the fact things are more equal then they were in recent years. I don't particularly want to see us return to a setup where 2 teams bring through players only to have the other bigger budgeted teams take them of us once they are developed into professionals. Granted I am only thinking with my Dragons hat on here but any other fans feel the same or am I totally missing something here?

Welshmushroom wrote:I just saw a news article which showed both Ospreys and Blues want to now increase the self imposed salary cap.  I do find it ironic that the regions who have pleaded poverty for the past 2 seasons have suddenly had a change of heart regarding the salary cap given financially not a lot has changed.  If anything they have more space within the cap as the central contracts only take up their share of the 40% for those players so they will have been able to spend the rest as an addition to their salary cap.  I do suspect the change in management at the WRU has now resulted things going back to normal.

From a my perspective I hope the Dragons & Scarlets don't agree to this for purely selfish reason.  Because being realistic the Dragons who don't spend anywhere near the current cap will no doubt get hit hard by player poaching from primarily what I suspect will be the Blues.  Under the current restrictions the Blues cant really outbid us heavily for our own talent so in that sense the salary cap has worked to retain players for their respective regions, even though it has caused increased pressure from outside of Wales.  If they don't agree I cannot see how the Blues and Ospreys can push through a salary cap rise.  

It will at least keep things on parity in terms of spending between the 4 regions meaning that any success is had is purely from a equal footing basis.  It would be wrong for the Blues to get themselves out of the pit they are in by poaching players from the Scarlets and Dragons only to make sure both sides end up beneath them and not from a viewpoint of developing their own team.  You would think any salary cap increase they are asking for would be better spent on sorting their academy out and start developing some youngsters.  At least the Ospreys have developed a hell of a lot of their own youth so you cant really fault them for that.  

Anyone else think I am wrong on this and that the Blues/Ospreys will use that money to bring in top draw players in from outside of Wales?  I've always thought the salary cap might come back to bite the Ospreys and Blues in the long run because now that they have entered into a PRL style agreement with the other 2 regions I cannot see why the financially poorer teams would ever vote to increase the cap as it would only serve to create a bigger gap between them.    

As a Dragons fan, I have enjoyed the fact things are more equal then they were in recent years.  I don't particularly want to see us return to a setup where 2 teams bring through players only to have the other bigger budgeted teams take them of us once they are developed into professionals.  Granted I am only thinking with my Dragons hat on here but any other fans feel the same or am I totally missing something here?

Still don't believe ewe. Try harder.

I couldn't really care less if you believe me or not Dave.

Welshmushroom wrote:I couldn't really care less if you believe me or not Dave.

You have form and why have a go at "the regions" when one of them is supposedly yours? Doesn't makes sense.

I suggest you read the post again. I'm not having a go at the regions. There's no way we are spending anywhere near the 3.5 million salary cap. My simple point is the Dragons and Scarlets are not the ones asking for the increase. I'm glad the restriction is in place. It serves to create a more equal template between us. I'm also not having a go at the regions. I am having a go at the Blues primarily here because I don't want to see a scenario where the only way the Blues can get themselves out of the mess they have gotten themselves into is by weakening the Dragons and Scarlets. Maybe Thomas can actually put a guy in place, give him enough time to do his job, develop their own players and create some success through positive actions, instead of thinking his cheque book will be the answer to all their problems. I'm not saying its a popular viewpoint but all I'm saying is that the Pro 12 is only a strong product as long as the teams within it remain competitive.

Welshmushroom wrote:I suggest you read the post again.  

Once was enough and I got the jist plus the bit about not much has changed. Dodger got destroyed mun. Big time. All 4 get more cash as a result.

I guess if Pieman is willing to pay out shed loads of money on players then he shouldn't have to worry about a salary cap but agreed that only last year them and the other regions were pleading poverty. Still at least Pies won't have to worry about paying Jamie Roberts a wage. Judging by the comments on that forum the Cardiff faithful are not too happy about it

(You can thank me for breaking it into paragraphs)

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s170.htm?221,15214233



Jamie Roberts should never play for Wales again.

He has swapped a club towards the bottom of the pro 12 for a club towards the bottom of the English Premiership. Neither club are playing in the champions cup. This myth, the standard is better in the english premiership is simply not all that true. Glasgow smashed Bath this year, and the three big Irish teams even though they have suffered a bit from rebuilding have continually beaten English opposition this season.

Leinster beat Bath in the champions cup semi final and pushed Toulon close, Munster beat Sale, home and away, Leinster beat Wasps, Ulster beat Leicester and the Scarlets beat Leicester. In a season which is recognised as a rebuilding season for many clubs including Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, I do not think this displays a clear disparity between the two leagues. Attendance, has been hampered by stars going from the Welsh teams in the pro 12 Ireland dont have this problem and have far better attendances.

Garlands rule must apply except in exceptional circumstances, Oxford is not much further from Cardiff as it is from Richmond, the rule must be implemented otherwise there is no point in having rules. We have brilliant young centres, Tyler Morgan, Scott Williams, Cory Allen and even George North, Not to mention Jonathan Davies. Halfpenny and Foxy went to the two best clubs in European Rugby at the moment, Roberts has not.

Steffan, Quins have a good set-up (better than the poorly run regions) so they're pretty sustainable. They're also bringing in a few good players so they might be back in the top 6 next season. Blues certainly won't be in the top 6, when they're run by morons.

Mushroom, I think we need an increase in the salary cap, just to be able to keep up with English clubs (the ones who mostly poach our players). If our top players are tied down with DCs then other regions won't be able to poach them. It also goes both ways, as we get players from other areas. Also with internationals on the increase, I think we might need a few more marquee players as the academies will need a few more years to catch up with the current demand for pro players.

I thought Jamie chose Quins so that he could continue with his medical degree in Cambridge university, I could be wrong mind you. But to do this he insisted with Quins that he must be allowed to play for Wales any time team Wales came knocking, again I could be wrong on that as well, it's just what I have been led to believe.

The Saint wrote:Mushroom, I think we need an increase in the salary cap, just to be able to keep up with English clubs (the ones who mostly poach our players). If our top players are tied down with DCs then other regions won't be able to poach them. It also goes both ways, as we get players from other areas. Also with internationals on the increase, I think we might need a few more marquee players as the academies will need a few more years to catch up with the current demand for pro players.

I agree with this. Also, we need to match the Irish with what they are spending otherwise we will never break the monopoly in our league.

Does our salary cap have a marquee player clause? If not that is the place to start. One or two players outside of the salary cap and not on DC's. I'd prefer for us to try and develop more players but i also think having world class players around all season will help that no end. I do not want us to chase the salaries of the Aviva/T14 as they're getting out of hand.

Probably more to do with money and location. He could have continued his medical career in Paris. If you look at his CV though, it includes doing a duet with Manic Street Preachers; is there anything this guy can't do?

Coleman wrote:Does our salary cap have a marquee player clause?

I do not think it does, but it would be a good idea. Look how affective these extra one or two players make for the Irish provinces, a really good one could really galvanise a team, one that has been there all season and shoulders a lot of responsibility. I would love these kinds of marquee players, the regions could probably afford them now as the WRU are helping with the DC.

The Saint wrote:Probably more to do with money and location. He could have continued his medical career in Paris. If you look at his CV though, it includes doing a duet with Manic Street Preachers; is there anything this guy can't do?

Finger pick? Calculus? Change brake shoes and pads on a Ford Fiesta?

Steffan wrote:I guess if Pieman is willing to pay out shed loads of money on players then he shouldn't have to worry about a salary cap but agreed that only last year them and the other regions were pleading poverty. Still at least Pies won't have to worry about paying Jamie Roberts a wage. Judging by the comments on that forum the Cardiff faithful are not too happy about it

(You can thank me for breaking it into paragraphs)

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s170.htm?221,15214233

Always something to grumble about down Cardiff way i'm afraid.

Welshmushroom wrote:I just saw a news article which showed both Ospreys and Blues want to now increase the self imposed salary cap.  I do find it ironic that the regions who have pleaded poverty for the past 2 seasons have suddenly had a change of heart regarding the salary cap given financially not a lot has changed.  If anything they have more space within the cap as the central contracts only take up their share of the 40% for those players so they will have been able to spend the rest as an addition to their salary cap.  I do suspect the change in management at the WRU has now resulted things going back to normal.

From a my perspective I hope the Dragons & Scarlets don't agree to this for purely selfish reason.  Because being realistic the Dragons who don't spend anywhere near the current cap will no doubt get hit hard by player poaching from primarily what I suspect will be the Blues.  Under the current restrictions the Blues cant really outbid us heavily for our own talent so in that sense the salary cap has worked to retain players for their respective regions, even though it has caused increased pressure from outside of Wales.  If they don't agree I cannot see how the Blues and Ospreys can push through a salary cap rise.  

It will at least keep things on parity in terms of spending between the 4 regions meaning that any success is had is purely from a equal footing basis.  It would be wrong for the Blues to get themselves out of the pit they are in by poaching players from the Scarlets and Dragons only to make sure both sides end up beneath them and not from a viewpoint of developing their own team.  You would think any salary cap increase they are asking for would be better spent on sorting their academy out and start developing some youngsters.  At least the Ospreys have developed a hell of a lot of their own youth so you cant really fault them for that.  

Anyone else think I am wrong on this and that the Blues/Ospreys will use that money to bring in top draw players in from outside of Wales?  I've always thought the salary cap might come back to bite the Ospreys and Blues in the long run because now that they have entered into a PRL style agreement with the other 2 regions I cannot see why the financially poorer teams would ever vote to increase the cap as it would only serve to create a bigger gap between them.    

As a Dragons fan, I have enjoyed the fact things are more equal then they were in recent years.  I don't particularly want to see us return to a setup where 2 teams bring through players only to have the other bigger budgeted teams take them of us once they are developed into professionals.  Granted I am only thinking with my Dragons hat on here but any other fans feel the same or am I totally missing something here?

There has been an increase in money for all of the Welsh regions in the past year, so I can't see how you can argue that not a lot has changed financially. Big sponsorship deal with BT Sport, dual contracts, new European money, slight increase in Pro12 revenue due to Sky coming on board, etc etc. Ospreys and Blues were not far off breaking even in their accounts for the previous year (when the struggle was still ongoing), so therefore they now have extra money to spend (and have spent in Ospreys case, in improving the squad for next season). The point I'm making is that if they can afford to spend above the £3.5m on European squads then the cap will be raised, if not scrapped altogether.

I think each region should fend for itself. If players want to move to other regions cos there's a better offer, let them at it - that's the market at work. And at least it keeps the players playing in the Pro12 and in Wales.

Welsh rugby over the next few years needs to get all of its players back from other leagues and start winning some silverware - outside of the Ospreys.

If the Dragons can't cut it - tough. They should be able to though.

Pot Hale wrote:I think each region should fend for itself.   If players want to move to other regions cos there's a better offer, let them at it - that's the market at work.   And at least it keeps the players playing in the Pro12 and in Wales.  

Welsh rugby over the next few years needs to get all of its players back from other leagues and start winning some silverware - outside of the Ospreys.  

If the Dragons can't cut it - tough.  They should be able to though.

Not sure I agree with this Pot Hale. 'Market at work' sounds like the old, non-regional, private club and sugar daddy model that we used to have, that England and France have, and that we've been 12 years trying to move away from. We're trying to go down a more Irish/SA/NZ type model, as I'm sure you know. That's more about equality amongst regions, levelling the playing field so that no one club stockpiles the talent at the expense of the others and therefore at the expense of the national team. Moving from a Conservative to a Labour model, if you'll excuse the politics analogy. As Ireland have shown you don't leave the regions to fend for themselves. If Connact couldn't cut it - tough? Nah, increase their funding and level the playing field. As happened. You know all of this this though. Have I missed a hidden meaning here? Or tongue in cheek mischief?!

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think each region should fend for itself.   If players want to move to other regions cos there's a better offer, let them at it - that's the market at work.   And at least it keeps the players playing in the Pro12 and in Wales.  

Welsh rugby over the next few years needs to get all of its players back from other leagues and start winning some silverware - outside of the Ospreys.  

If the Dragons can't cut it - tough.  They should be able to though.

Not sure I agree with this Pot Hale. 'Market at work' sounds like the old, non-regional, private club and sugar daddy model that we used to have, that England and France have, and that we've been 12 years trying to move away from. We're trying to go down a more Irish/SA/NZ type model, as I'm sure you know. That's more about equality amongst regions, levelling the playing field so that no one club stockpiles the talent at the expense of the others and therefore at the expense of the national team. Moving from a Conservative to a Labour model, if you'll excuse the politics analogy. As Ireland have shown you don't leave the regions to fend for themselves. If Connact couldn't cut it - tough? Nah, increase their funding and level the playing field. As happened. You know all of this this though. Have I missed a hidden meaning here? Or tongue in cheek mischief?!

Connacht eventually had to go down the route of getting in private funding to keep them running.   By market at work, I meant the internal market within Wales.   The point more was that if Welsh players are getting tempted by offers from other leagues, and by an offer from another region, which is better that they sign for, if their own region can't pay/offer them enough?

The Salary cap is an agreement between the pro teams, i don't think it is set in stone anywhere and was brought about from the PWC findings on how to make themselves sustainable.

If one region wants to spend more than the cap then there's no sanctions or penalties if they do so as it is not a rule bound to the league they play in. So if, for instance, the Dragons said they don't want to raise it then there's nothing stopping the Ospreys or Blues spending more as the only consequence will be bad feeling/jealous for them having more money to throw around.

PS. I think the last time the blues 'poached' a player from the dragons was Jason Tovey, and he went back after a year because of the emergence of Patchell and he didn't want to fight for the 10 shirt. Being bang average didn't help either.

Steffan wrote:I guess if Pieman is willing to pay out shed loads of money on players then he shouldn't have to worry about a salary cap but agreed that only last year them and the other regions were pleading poverty. Still at least Pies won't have to worry about paying Jamie Roberts a wage. Judging by the comments on that forum the Cardiff faithful are not too happy about it

(You can thank me for breaking it into paragraphs)

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s170.htm?221,15214233



Jamie Roberts should never play for Wales again.

He has swapped a club towards the bottom of the pro 12 for a club towards the bottom of the English Premiership. Neither club are playing in the champions cup. This myth, the standard is better in the english premiership is simply not all that true. Glasgow smashed Bath this year, and the three big Irish teams even though they have suffered a bit from rebuilding have continually beaten English opposition this season.

Leinster beat Bath in the champions cup semi final and pushed Toulon close, Munster beat Sale, home and away, Leinster beat Wasps, Ulster beat Leicester and the Scarlets beat Leicester. In a season which is recognised as a rebuilding season for many clubs including Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, I do not think this displays a clear disparity between the two leagues. Attendance, has been hampered by stars going from the Welsh teams in the pro 12 Ireland dont have this problem and have far better attendances.

Garlands rule must apply except in exceptional circumstances, Oxford is not much further from Cardiff as it is from Richmond, the rule must be implemented otherwise there is no point in having rules. We have brilliant young centres, Tyler Morgan, Scott Williams, Cory Allen and even George North, Not to mention Jonathan Davies. Halfpenny and Foxy went to the two best clubs in European Rugby at the moment, Roberts has not.

Take a look at ponty.net for a real laugh. Some on there think they should be a professional team and are dead certain they do not get free players from the Blues. Also, don't mention the A team thing or they'll organise a walk in defiance, from the pub they meet in through the usual route to the ground....so their usual walk....but they'll have bed sheets and everything!

Steffan wrote:

Leinster beat Bath in the champions cup semi final and pushed Toulon close, Munster beat Sale, home and away, Leinster beat Wasps, Ulster beat Leicester and the Scarlets beat Leicester. In a season which is recognised as a rebuilding season for many clubs including Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, I do not think this displays a clear disparity between the two leagues. Attendance, has been hampered by stars going from the Welsh teams in the pro 12 Ireland dont have this problem and have far better attendances.

.

If one of the finalists in the pro12 was in a "rebuilding" season, what does that say about the pro12? You can't have it both ways.

gcBlues wrote:

Steffan wrote:I guess if Pieman is willing to pay out shed loads of money on players then he shouldn't have to worry about a salary cap but agreed that only last year them and the other regions were pleading poverty. Still at least Pies won't have to worry about paying Jamie Roberts a wage. Judging by the comments on that forum the Cardiff faithful are not too happy about it

(You can thank me for breaking it into paragraphs)

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s170.htm?221,15214233



Jamie Roberts should never play for Wales again.

He has swapped a club towards the bottom of the pro 12 for a club towards the bottom of the English Premiership. Neither club are playing in the champions cup. This myth, the standard is better in the english premiership is simply not all that true. Glasgow smashed Bath this year, and the three big Irish teams even though they have suffered a bit from rebuilding have continually beaten English opposition this season.

Leinster beat Bath in the champions cup semi final and pushed Toulon close, Munster beat Sale, home and away, Leinster beat Wasps, Ulster beat Leicester and the Scarlets beat Leicester. In a season which is recognised as a rebuilding season for many clubs including Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, I do not think this displays a clear disparity between the two leagues. Attendance, has been hampered by stars going from the Welsh teams in the pro 12 Ireland dont have this problem and have far better attendances.

Garlands rule must apply except in exceptional circumstances, Oxford is not much further from Cardiff as it is from Richmond, the rule must be implemented otherwise there is no point in having rules. We have brilliant young centres, Tyler Morgan, Scott Williams, Cory Allen and even George North, Not to mention Jonathan Davies. Halfpenny and Foxy went to the two best clubs in European Rugby at the moment, Roberts has not.

Take a look at ponty.net for a real laugh. Some on there think they should be a professional team and are dead certain they do not get free players from the Blues. Also, don't mention the A team thing or they'll organise a walk in defiance, from the pub they meet in through the usual route to the ground....so their usual walk....but they'll have bed sheets and everything!

Aye the Ponty fans forum on the proper Pontypridd RFC website. Is it monitored I wonder. Imagine if Cardiff Blues had a fans forum on their website? Would probably get shut down after 5mins.
I should add that there are Ponty fans who know the score.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Leinster beat Bath in the champions cup semi final and pushed Toulon close, Munster beat Sale, home and away, Leinster beat Wasps, Ulster beat Leicester and the Scarlets beat Leicester. In a season which is recognised as a rebuilding season for many clubs including Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, I do not think this displays a clear disparity between the two leagues. Attendance, has been hampered by stars going from the Welsh teams in the pro 12 Ireland dont have this problem and have far better attendances.

.

If one of the finalists in the pro12 was in a "rebuilding" season, what does that say about the pro12? You can't have it both ways.

Munster have been that way for a little while now. It says to me they have some good players and are very well coached. The year they didn't make the play-offs and had 50+ points put on them by Glasgow they made the KO stages of the euro cup. What does that say about the European competition? See you can have it both ways.

Welshmushroom wrote:I suggest you read the post again.  I'm not having a go at the regions.  There's no way we are spending anywhere near the 3.5 million salary cap. My simple point is the Dragons and Scarlets are not the ones asking for the increase.   I'm glad the restriction is in place.  It serves to create a more equal template between us.   I'm also not having a go at the regions.  I am having a go at the Blues primarily here because I don't want to see a scenario where the only way the Blues can get themselves out of the mess they have gotten themselves into is by weakening the Dragons and Scarlets.  Maybe Thomas can actually put a guy in place, give him enough time to do his job, develop their own players and create some success through positive actions, instead of thinking his cheque book will be the answer to all their problems.  I'm not saying its a popular viewpoint but all I'm saying is that the Pro 12 is only a strong product as long as the teams within it remain competitive.  

Spending £4.27m on 235 employees does rather prove you right on that front.

However, the salary cap was not adhered to at Cardiff last season. It's already gone up to £4m.

To believe that it doesn't need to be higher, when you consider the Welsh teams are amongst the lowest spenders on wages in the European professional game, is naive. Sorry.

You write about the Pr'O12 being competitive but don't seem to place any emphasis on the significantly larger wages paid by the SRU and IRFU.

Welshmushroom wrote:I just saw a news article which showed both Ospreys and Blues want to now increase the self imposed salary cap.  I do find it ironic that the regions who have pleaded poverty for the past 2 seasons have suddenly had a change of heart regarding the salary cap given financially not a lot has changed.

Bar a bigger payment from the Union, more from EPRC and a signing on fee for the RSA?

Pot Hale wrote:I think each region should fend for itself.   If players want to move to other regions cos there's a better offer, let them at it - that's the market at work.   And at least it keeps the players playing in the Pro12 and in Wales.  

Welsh rugby over the next few years needs to get all of its players back from other leagues and start winning some silverware - outside of the Ospreys.  

If the Dragons can't cut it - tough.  They should be able to though.

Spot on.

Griff wrote:
Not sure I agree with this Pot Hale. 'Market at work' sounds like the old, non-regional, private club and sugar daddy model that we used to have, that England and France have, and that we've been 12 years trying to move away from. We're trying to go down a more Irish/SA/NZ type model, as I'm sure you know. That's more about equality amongst regions, levelling the playing field so that no one club stockpiles the talent at the expense of the others and therefore at the expense of the national team. Moving from a Conservative to a Labour model, if you'll excuse the politics analogy. As Ireland have shown you don't leave the regions to fend for themselves. If Connact couldn't cut it - tough? Nah, increase their funding and level the playing field. As happened. You know all of this this though. Have I missed a hidden meaning here? Or tongue in cheek mischief?!

We still have a 'non-regional, private club and sugar daddy model'. We are nowhere near the model of Ireland / SA / NZ as the Union here doesn't either control outright, have a 51% or control all of the playing assets of our four teams.

The 'expense of the National team' is the number of players playing outside of Wales.

And you're aware that Connacht were hours from being closed down by the IRFU not too many years ago?