Ireland's Rugby World Cup 2015 Thread - "You're wrong on several counts..."

[Don Alfonso]

First topic message reminder :

Alright.

The time for whinging at the Welsh, sniping at the Scots and educating the English is done. Playtime is over. The bitterness is dialled up to ten, the eye-patches producing metaphorical one-eyedness are donned, chips are placed on shoulders – it’s time for some proper, down n’ dirty, internecine bickering.

Who will go to the 2015 Rugby World Cup to play for Ireland?

Who should go?



The players have the following opportunities to shine like a diamond for Joe:


Emerging Ireland Tbilisi Cup

Emerging Italy v Emerging Ireland
Saturday 13th June 14:00 BST

Uruguay v Emerging Ireland
Wednesday 17th June 14:00 BST

Georgia v Emerging Ireland
Sunday 21st June 16:00 BST


Ireland Matches

Wales v Ireland
Millennium Stadium
Saturday 8th August

Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 15th August

Ireland v Wales
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 29th August

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium
Saturday 5th September


31 players.

A 17/14 split? Has Madigan played himself off the plane? Do Ruddock or Trimble have enough time to make it back? Can Rory’s darts be trusted? Does POM spend too much time on the wing? Are Payne and Strauss “Irish” enough? Why is Reddan there? Has Zebo been by-passed? Is Cave too slow? Why Felix Jones?

HAVE AT THEE!

[The Great Aukster]

Can't he play both sides?

[Marshes]

If Bent can play both sides effectively do we need to bring six props? Are Furlong and Kilcoyne that much of a step up from him? I thought he was brutal when he first came on the scene and haven't seen much of him since, but he seems to be back in contention at Leinster..Would free up an additional space..

[Sin é]

If Bent can play both sides effectively do we need to bring six props? Are Furlong and Kilcoyne that much of a step up from him? I thought he was brutal when he first came on the scene and haven't seen much of him since, but he seems to be back in contention at Leinster..Would free up an additional space..

I wouldn't read too much into Bent's selection in the squad. Far more likely that there is no one left at Leinster for him to actually train with bearing in mind that not only are all the Leinster props there, all their hookers are as well not to mention Leinster's coaching set up being a complete mess.

[rodders]

Training Squad announced.

LH Prop
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Michael Bent (Dublin University/Leinster)

TH Prop
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)*

Hooker
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)

Lock
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)

Backrow
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Scrumhalf
Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Outhalf
Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)

Centre
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster)

Back Three
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster)

There's your cut.

The key question is around the midfield and backrow. Controversial to leave out Henry but Murphy covers 8 so makes the cut. Could we go with 2 centres? If not I can't see us taking 6 backrowers given Henderson can play 6.

Back 3 I think he'll go for 2 specialist 15's and a split of left and right sided players. Dave Kearneys ability to play left and right might see him sneak in ahead of Trimble, Earls and McFadden.

[Golden]

Bent has had a great season as a LH. On last seasons showing I think Bent and Buckley should have been vying for the 3rd LH spot. He is not a TH however.

The only problem I'd have with him going is it leaves Leinster down 6 props and most likely 8 front rowers.

[Standulstermen]

McCloskey not included AT ALL, behind Cave, D'Arcy and Reid? I wouldn't have any of those guys ahead of him for Ulster but time was against him. I am certain he will breakthrough after the RWC...

...but with that squad we can definitely add centre to the list of positions we are fecked if there is an injury because after Henshaw and Payne that is a weak looking selection. The lack of game time for Luke Marshall and the injury to Stuart Olding could badly derail our backs if either Henshaw or Payne are unavailable.

Also surprised not to see Archer in the forwards, although other than that it's exactly what I would have picked.

Completely agree with regards to d'arcy. Not sure what he is bringing to the table anymore. Bear in mind that we need to use the squad well and rotate to put points on the minnows should we lose a pool game. We don't need the ball to disappear at 12.

[Sin é]

D'Arcy may not be good enough to face the All Blacks, but he would provide experience and leadership in the games against Romania & Georgia when the likely starters (such as Sexton, Murray etc) will be rested.

[Golden]

Makes sense having someone of his experience in the training camp, but I wouldn't be too keen on him making the final squad.

[rodders]

Well by the sounds of Darcy's comments in the media this week and the training plan he's on with the Irish S&C team he's nailed on to be in the 30.

I'll bet that no one who didn't feature in the Autumn series or the last 2 6N campaigns will be selected, unless Joe knows them from the Leinster squad.

That leaves 3 players at center plus Madigan, with Cave/Reid on standby.

Same with the back 3, so expect Earls and Gilroy to miss out for sure with Trimble, McFadden and Kearney battling over one wing spot and only one of Fitzgerald and Zebo to go.

I don't think there'll be any surprises.

[Sin é]

I'll be surprised if Fitz goes - he is too injury prone and the chances of him picking up some sort of an injury is fairly high. Not sure Trimble will make it (due to not having much of a kicking game and lack of versatility). Its Bowe or Trimble and I think Bowe will get it - he seems to be a Schmidt favourite.

[profitius]

A bit of blue tinted bias from Joe or maybe he wants to be sure of the personalities in the squad?

It looks likely that D'Arcy will probably get into the 30. It won't be anything to do with talent though because he is well down the pecking order of centers at the moment. More than likely be picked for his experience to counter balance Henshaw and Payne and as Sin é said, be mainly played against the smaller sides like Romania.

Jackson and Madigan is interesting. Madigan will be sub behind Sexton but Jackson is more likely to fill in for Sexton if he gets injured.

Likewise for prop, if they're including 5 in the squad Bent will be kept on and Kilcoyne and Furlong will be cut. If they're including 6 props Bent will be cut.

Second row is between Ryan and Tuohy. I think Ryan will be given time to see if he can get back up to speed because he was out for a long time. One of Irelands best players before his injuries though so he is already a proven international and will get the nod.

Back 3 sees plenty of competition. Hard to know how many players will be included but the certainties for me are Bowe, R Kearney and Trimble. Trimble like Ryan has to prove his fitness but has plenty of credit in the bank for his 2014 performances. The kick chase game is vitally important to Schmidt and the back 3 will be picked based on that I'd say. I reckon it will be Bowe, R Kearney, Trimble, Zebo and probably Luke Fitz.

[Standulstermen]

D'Arcy may not be good enough to face the All Blacks, but he would provide experience and leadership in the games against Romania & Georgia when the likely starters (such as Sexton, Murray etc) will be rested.

I assume you mean Canada here sin. I completely disagree. We have henshaw and Payne with experience enough and the backup ten will most likely be Jackson who has plenty of time with McCloskey. It's a no brainer of a selection. The d'arcy of a few years back could give a team valuable go forward. There has been no evidence this season that he can still do it whereas we have omitted the one guy big enough to make other teams worry. 

Look at the direct style that our centres now play. D'arcy just isn't physically suited to it anymore.

[Sin é]

Payne & Henshaw can't start every game (and won't be needed against Romania - yes I did mean Canada). But Payne & Henshaw are still a relatively new partnership and haven't been particularly creative so far. It would also might be a good idea to have a centre who can actually beat a man with their feet.

[Don Alfonso]

Payne & Henshaw can't start every game (and won't be needed against Romania - yes I did mean Canada). But Payne & Henshaw are still a relatively new partnership and haven't been particularly creative so far. It would also might be a good idea to have a centre who can actually beat a man with their feet.

But Olding's out injured...

[Standulstermen]

Payne & Henshaw can't start every game (and won't be needed against Romania - yes I did mean Canada). But Payne & Henshaw are still a relatively new partnership and haven't been particularly creative so far. It would also might be a good idea to have a centre who can actually beat a man with their feet.

D'arcy can no longer do that though. Watching his play this season his pace is so far gone he gets hit so far behind the gainline that the ball dies. The irony is the McCloskey is almost guaranteed go forward against minnow teams. With the signing of his extension the selection of d'arcy seems a fait accompli and that saddens me. It's to my mind a regressive selection.

McCloskey is young, just as Irish and playing better and misses out. That's a negative in my view. That said it's great for ulster 

I would actually select cave over d'arcy at 12 and there's a guy I thought ulster should have let go given their centre stocks playing put of position. As it happens given the injury profile of ulsters centres I'm glad they didn't.

[Sin é]

McCloskey will have his day, but he has something like 8 starts for Ulster to his name at the moment. He is too inexperienced to give a place to when there are other experienced players available like D'Arcy (or Luke Fitz and Earls) who have been capped internationally in that position and who also offer something different to Henshaw/Olding.

[rodders]

McCloskey is young, just as Irish and playing better and misses out. That's a negative in my view. That said it's great for ulster 

I would actually select cave over d'arcy at 12 and there's a guy I thought ulster should have let go given their centre stocks playing put of position. As it happens given the injury profile of ulsters centres I'm glad they didn't.

Re McCloskey, I think his inexperience has counted against him. Schmidt wasn't going to select both him and Reid. McCloskey has massive raw talent and would love to see him line up alongside Henshaw but he is still prone to the odd risky offload or penalty.

I would take Cave ahead of D'arcy too (I think this could happen but unlikely). Cave is solid at 12 and 13 and would be a decent foil for either Henshaw or Payne, who is quite injury prone and not the most durable player.

I have a feeling D'arcy's experience, defence and breakdown work might edge it if he goes ok in the warm ups. That said he does offer nothing in attack and I think he will have to prove himself or Schmidt may go for Cave or even Reid.

I think Schmidt will count on Bowe, Madigan and maybe Fitzgerald to cover center if there is an injury to Payne.

[Marshes]

Ah if McCloskey is good enough he is experienced enough. Where would we be if they hadn't dropped BOD in the deep end in Paris? Honestly I'd love to see one of the Ulster 12s come in and make the jersey their own, move Henshaw to 13 where he can open up play like he does at Connacht rather than just chasing and catching, and move Payne back to 15. D'Arcy can go as an advisor and give encouragement without taking a spot in the squad. There are plenty of other and better leaders on the pitch who can still play at this level.

In regard to the back 3, there haven't bee too many who have effectively married the rigid tactics that Joe has for the wings AND occasionally make clean breaks and get into space. Trimble was the most effective at it when he was fit I thought so hope he can get back to his best after injury, and Fitzgerald showed glimpses of it against the Scots so he should get a spot (and he can cover centre as well), although I don't know if that was the opposition or Fitzgerald's ability. D.Kearney and Zebo were effective without really threatening anything too inventive when they had their chance.

[Sin é]

Ah if McCloskey is good enough he is experienced enough. Where would we be if they hadn't dropped BOD in the deep end in Paris? Honestly I'd love to see one of the Ulster 12s come in and make the jersey their own, move Henshaw to 13 where he can open up play like he does at Connacht rather than just chasing and catching, and move Payne back to 15. D'Arcy can go as an advisor and give encouragement without taking a spot in the squad. There are plenty of other and better leaders on the pitch who can still play at this level.

In regard to the back 3, there haven't bee too many who have effectively married the rigid tactics that Joe has for the wings AND occasionally make clean breaks and get into space. Trimble was the most effective at it when he was fit I thought so hope he can get back to his best after injury, and Fitzgerald showed glimpses of it against the Scots so he should get a spot (and he can cover centre as well), although I don't know if that was the opposition or Fitzgerald's ability. D.Kearney and Zebo were effective without really threatening anything too inventive when they had their chance.

Paris was BOD's 11th Ireland cap, not his first. Most of his first 11 caps were losses as well!

[Marshes]

I know it wasn't first cap Sin, was more a comment on age not being a factor if quality is there. McCloskey is 2 years older now than BOD was then!

[Notch]

The game plan we have now is much more technical and detailed than those baggy jumpered, give it a lash years when we were transitioning from the amateur era though.

I don't have a problem with bringing guys like McCloskey in at the start of a World Cup cycle, makes perfect sense, the problem I have is D'Arcy and Cave don't do it for me so if I was going to take a gamble on any position.... Can't understand the inclusion of Reid for the life of me either. I suppose the biggest objection I have is, why not have McCloskey in the extended squad. He'd gain from the experience and you'd think he'll be in the mix come the Six Nations even if he's not involved in the World Cup.

[Sin é]

I know it wasn't first cap Sin, was more a comment on age not being a factor if quality is there. McCloskey is 2 years older now than BOD was then!

McCloskey was a late developer size wise. Unlike BOD, he has not played any international underage rugby and he has hardly played for Ulster. He is too much of an unknown to bring to a world cup at this stage. His time will come after the world cup.

[rodders]

I know it wasn't first cap Sin, was more a comment on age not being a factor if quality is there. McCloskey is 2 years older now than BOD was then!

McCloskey was a late developer size wise. Unlike BOD, he has not played any international underage rugby and he has hardly played for Ulster. He is too much of an unknown to bring to a world cup at this stage. His time will come after the world cup.

I agree Sin

[Don Alfonso]

Agree - just a year or two too early.

[rodders]

Interesting that Ireland seem to be doing their training camps at home rather than go for the hot weather and/or high altitude training camps that Wales, Scotland and England are going for.

I wonder if this may come back and haunt us in the RWC if we aren't as well conditioned as some of the other sides?

At the last one Wales clearly had a different level physically after their spala camps than we did despite the reports that our guys were in their best condition ever.

[Sin é]

I think you have to remember that both England & Wales will be 'at home' for the world cup, while Ireland will travel. Wales & England would be climbing the walls by September if they stayed at home in their one base. All the Irish lads say being away from home for so long is the hardest part of the whole thing. I think last week they were back with their provinces for preseason as well (and I saw a video of some Munster training and it looked sharp enough).

Paul O'Connell said the other day that they were not even thinking of the warm up games just yet, just concentrating on S&C. So, if POC's concentrating on S&C, you can bet the others are as well! The Welsh & English are meeting so they have to be able to beat each other up.

[Notch]

Interesting that Ireland seem to be doing their training camps at home rather than go for the hot weather and/or high altitude training camps that Wales, Scotland and England are going for.

I wonder if this may come back and haunt us in the RWC if we aren't as well conditioned as some of the other sides?

At the last one Wales clearly had  a different level physically after their spala camps than we did despite the reports that our guys were in their best condition ever.

To be honest I think the benefit of those camps is psychological; they go off somewhere and create the mindset that they are better prepared than everyone else because they've done x and y. They also get a break from the routine and a refreshing change of scene. I don't think you need to go anywhere to get to the level of fitness required.

[rodders]

No doubt there is a psychological aspect of these camps but the benefits of altitude and hot weather training are well pretty known and proven.

[profitius]

Ireland have an advantage in that we have a few easy world cup games before Italy.

[GunsGerms]

Interesting that Ireland seem to be doing their training camps at home rather than go for the hot weather and/or high altitude training camps that Wales, Scotland and England are going for.

I wonder if this may come back and haunt us in the RWC if we aren't as well conditioned as some of the other sides?

At the last one Wales clearly had  a different level physically after their spala camps than we did despite the reports that our guys were in their best condition ever.

To be honest I think the benefit of those camps is psychological; they go off somewhere and create the mindset that they are better prepared than everyone else because they've done x and y. They also get a break from the routine and a refreshing change of scene. I don't think you need to go anywhere to get to the level of fitness required.

I agree. Also why would you do hot weather/high altitude training when the world cup is going to be in England? Seems like a daft idea.

[rodders]

Wales are sleeping at altitude which allows them to train at higher intensity and recover better at lower altitude - seems a pretty good idea to me.

Training at heat provides benefits when going back to the colder climate - why do you think so many athletes use warm weather camps?

I can understand why it would be a bad idea when doing the skills based work with the rwc in the UK but definitely think the benefits for the S&C work are obvious.

[GunsGerms]

Im not convinced Rodders. Id understand if the WC was in South Africa and you had altitude games coming up in Bloemfontein etc. However, surely there isnt an awful lot to be gained otherwise that cant be achieved here.

I reckon the Ireland team should do a few psychology sessions with Conor McGregor on winning mentality. I actually think the Irish rugby teams problem at world cups or elsewhere have been more mental than fitness or skill related.

Obviously you need to cover everything off but I think that should get some expert attention.

[rodders]

I agree. In fact I'd like to see us trash talk our opponents a bit more in the build up to the RWC.

Can you imagine POC calling Robshaw a midget and saying he will rest his b*lls on his head? We need a bit of that I think.

[GunsGerms]

I agree. In fact I'd like to see us trash talk our opponents a bit more in the build up to the RWC.

Can you imagine POC calling Robshaw a midget and saying he will rest his b*lls on his head? We need a bit of that I think.

I with you on that. That would be gold.

[lostinwales]

Just for reference purposes according to Wiki POC is all of 10cm in height and 2kg heavier than Robshaw

[The Boss]

Just for reference purposes according to Wiki POC is all of 10cm in height and 2kg heavier than Robshaw

Well then big Dev should do it
I think it was a reference to the trash talking leading to the UFC at the weekend, lostinwales

[Sin é]

I recall hearing of The Claw thrash talking Brian Moore - something about what was Moore going to do for a face when Saddam wanted his arse back. Think Moore got sent off for starting a fight. Ireland lost though!

[Cyril]

Conor McGregor looks like a hipster

[rodders]

Conor McGregor looks like a hipster

isn't that Ian Madigan?

[Chunky Norwich]

Ireland will make the semi final. Nigel will make sure his boys get out of the group on top.

[Sin é]

Ireland will make the semi final. Nigel will make sure his boys get out of the group on top.

Fairplay to Nigel Owens who has fooled everyone into thinking he is the best ref in the world.

[Chunky Norwich]

Ireland will make the semi final. Nigel will make sure his boys get out of the group on top.

Fairplay to Nigel Owens who has fooled everyone into thinking he is the best ref in the world.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The man is a fraud. And has admitted that he has never even read the law book. He refuses to referee the scrum and just lets everything go on the floor. It doesn't take a genius to work out which type of sides this suits, and why he's revered so much in certain countries.

http://www.joe.ie/sport/nigel-owens-is-the-latest-star-to-jump-on-the-hurling-bandwagon/502626?utm_content=bufferbc063&utm_medium=Social+organic&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

He's a legend, to be sure.

[Don Alfonso]

Interesting that Ireland seem to be doing their training camps at home rather than go for the hot weather and/or high altitude training camps that Wales, Scotland and England are going for.

I wonder if this may come back and haunt us in the RWC if we aren't as well conditioned as some of the other sides?

At the last one Wales clearly had  a different level physically after their spala camps than we did despite the reports that our guys were in their best condition ever.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/33565695

Looks like Wales have changed their minds. Want to hone their "skillz" now.

[wolfball]

Ireland will make the semi final. Nigel will make sure his boys get out of the group on top.

Fairplay to Nigel Owens who has fooled everyone into thinking he is the best ref in the world.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The man is a fraud. And has admitted that he has never even read the law book. He refuses to referee the scrum and just lets everything go on the floor. It doesn't take a genius to work out which type of sides this suits, and why he's revered so much in certain countries.

http://www.joe.ie/sport/nigel-owens-is-the-latest-star-to-jump-on-the-hurling-bandwagon/502626?utm_content=bufferbc063&utm_medium=Social+organic&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

He's a legend, to be sure.

#ligind

[SecretFly]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/33565695

Looks like Wales have changed their minds. Want to hone their "skillz" now.

"The altitude chamber, the heat stress option and the cryotherapy chamber will complement our first two camps well."

These days rugby sounds more like alloy testing for the aerospace industry.

[SecretFly]

At least Nigel is one more guy from outside Ireland who now knows it's not a lie when we tell people that rugby ain't our main sport.

[Sin é]

Lots or reports doing the rounds that Cian Healy won't be fit for World Cup.

[rodders]

Source??

To be honest we are pretty well covered at LH and Healy hasn't been fully fit in a few seasons. Big blow though if true.

[Sin é]

Source??

To be honest we are pretty well covered at LH and Healy hasn't been fully fit in a few seasons. Big blow though if true.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/fears-grow-over-cian-healys-world-cup-participation-31408491.html

Others are covering it as well, but this was the original source. The IRFU are refusing to comment which doesn't sound good.

Some chatter about there being question marks over his career as well!

[rodders]

Not good. To be honest they need to look at the long term and not worry about the RWC.

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