Ireland's Rugby World Cup 2015 Thread - "You're wrong on several counts..."

[Don Alfonso]

First topic message reminder :

Alright.

The time for whinging at the Welsh, sniping at the Scots and educating the English is done. Playtime is over. The bitterness is dialled up to ten, the eye-patches producing metaphorical one-eyedness are donned, chips are placed on shoulders – it’s time for some proper, down n’ dirty, internecine bickering.

Who will go to the 2015 Rugby World Cup to play for Ireland?

Who should go?



The players have the following opportunities to shine like a diamond for Joe:


Emerging Ireland Tbilisi Cup

Emerging Italy v Emerging Ireland
Saturday 13th June 14:00 BST

Uruguay v Emerging Ireland
Wednesday 17th June 14:00 BST

Georgia v Emerging Ireland
Sunday 21st June 16:00 BST


Ireland Matches

Wales v Ireland
Millennium Stadium
Saturday 8th August

Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 15th August

Ireland v Wales
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 29th August

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium
Saturday 5th September


31 players.

A 17/14 split? Has Madigan played himself off the plane? Do Ruddock or Trimble have enough time to make it back? Can Rory’s darts be trusted? Does POM spend too much time on the wing? Are Payne and Strauss “Irish” enough? Why is Reddan there? Has Zebo been by-passed? Is Cave too slow? Why Felix Jones?

HAVE AT THEE!

[SecretFly]

Does the auld dog POC (and may he light our way over the coming weeks) but does POC not actually himself limit the gameplan Joe can give to his team?  Is he not one of the factors forcing Schmidt to be more conservative and less pacey and open?  He knows he needs POC for all that POC is and all his technical and leadership ability, but it's certain too that POC doesn't have the mobility to punch at a high pace in a counter attacking game for too long in an 80 minute game - and even if he had a stormer of an open field game for one full 80, he'd hardly be ready for another one the week after.
So we can often blame Schmidt for becoming quite conservative at International level but he is designing a game too around his considered best players.  Even Paulie would admit he probably pleads with Joe not to let the gameplan get too fast and furious.  The old knees ain't what they used to be.

[rodders]

I don't think anyone doubts POCs leadership but given he's been an on field leader for over decade, I don't see that anyone could reasonably argue that he and not Schmidt as the key difference in the results over the past 2 seasons.

POC has said about the clarity Joe has brought and that he has even made him a better player.  

Schmidt's record is just too good to ignore, be coincidence, or attribute to other personnel.

[eirebilly]

POC is still very fit and able to play high tempo matches week in week out so to suggest that Schmidt's conservative game plan is due to accommodating POC gives me a little laugh, cheers for that Fly

You could also say that Payne has something on Schmidt which is why he keeps being picked at 13 when he cant attack so Joe has to form a conservative game plan around Payne for fear of Payne exposing something on him

[SecretFly]

Oh come on, billy. POC would laugh at you. He knows how mobile he is.

[rodders]

You could also say that Payne has something on Schmidt which is why he keeps being picked at 13 when he cant attack so Joe has to form a conservative game plan around Payne for fear of Payne exposing something on him

Hey, don't knock a guy for pulling in a few favours billser - ROG made a career out of it ... .

[GunsGerms]

I don't think that it is ridiculous but thanks for your comment. I do believe that POC brings a leadership on the pitch (something that Schmidt does not have) and a calmness that got Schmidt's plans working. Schmidt himself said that it was great to have POC's leadership on this pitch.

You are deluded mate. So hard to take Munster fans seriously. Of course it is good to have POC on the pitch, he is a great player. He is not the reason Ireland have won back to back six nations though.

[eirebilly]

You could also say that Payne has something on Schmidt which is why he keeps being picked at 13 when he cant attack so Joe has to form a conservative game plan around Payne for fear of Payne exposing something on him

Hey, don't knock a guy for pulling in a few favours billser - ROG made a career out of it ... .

Ya cheeky feic rodders

[eirebilly]

I don't think that it is ridiculous but thanks for your comment. I do believe that POC brings a leadership on the pitch (something that Schmidt does not have) and a calmness that got Schmidt's plans working. Schmidt himself said that it was great to have POC's leadership on this pitch.

You are deluded mate. So hard to take Munster fans seriously. Of course it is good to have POC on the pitch, he is a great player. He is not the reason Ireland have won back to back six nations though.

Sorry, not going to bother.

[eirebilly]

Fly, POC is as mobile as ever, key to Ireland's potential progress

[rodders]

Fly, POC is as mobile as ever

Well he is commuting from the cotes d'azur rather than Limerick I suppose.

[SecretFly]

As mobile as ever...reasonably mobile then POC has many talents. Running/spacefinding/offloading/ and mixing it with the backs boys would be the least of those talents he's displayed over the years.

Why do people get so sensitive when a Great player is called a humanbeing?

BOD didn't have enough pace as he was ending his career. Didn't have the puff anymore for extended periods and admitted so. These guys are human and have their weaknesses. It's not saying they don't belong but POC, he's human.

[eirebilly]

POC has never been the most mobile player Fly, he is very solid around the ground but has never been the quickest so he still gets around the ground as fast as he used too. Was a hell of a swimmer in his youth though

[SecretFly]

I hope they introduce the butterfly before this Rugby Cup starts then!...I think we may need to claw some points back using the pool.

[rodders]

I'm with Billser fly - POC can still show young Devon Toner a clean pair of heels. Joe has taught him to pass and catch as well so he's in fine nick indeed even if the barnet isn't what it was.

He hasn't gone to Toulon just for his own polo-shirt range and private yacht you know.

[eirebilly]

Aaahh Devon Toner. To be honest I thought that it was a huge mistake to select him in the beginning but he has come along in leaps and bounds. He is a real menace in defensive mauls and has added more physicality to his game. Toner and Dave Kearney are two players who I thought would do nothing but have come good.

[rodders]

Aaahh Devon Toner. To be honest I thought that it was a huge mistake to select him in the beginning but he has come along in leaps and bounds.

Nah those are just steps he's taking - he has very long legs .

I rate Toner actually - a lot of people calling for Henderson to start and also not rated as highly as Ryan but I think he's been a key man over the last few season. Great line out player, deceptively physical and really high work-rate.

He's been a good foil for old creaky knees.....

[SecretFly]

He hasn't gone to Toulon just for his own polo-shirt range and private yacht you know.

Hmmm, I couldn't rightly say what he's going to Toulon for now as my tongue is sealed by most probable direct accusations pending. Maybe Toulon will be a ghost-town to rugby by the time he arrives Certainly the townsfolk look like they'll have to go elsewhere for their prescriptions for a while.

[SecretFly]

BTW, Toulon is a retirement home for big lads if Ali Williams is to be believed. Very cushy number there indeed for the old icons.

[FecklessRogue]

Toner has indeed been a key man, but it's difficult to ignore what that Henderson fella can do.

By the way there is no secret attacking gameplan that will be sprung in the World Cup. We'll play the conservative kicking game. If we execute it well we have a good chance against anyone. If our accuracy is off we can be beaten. The only difference will be the patented Schmidt power plays off set pieces which we, along with every other team, have been keeping under wraps for while.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Can't agree with you at all,one game where Wales played well and weren't great proves nothing.It takes a run of consistent results before we can draw any conclusions,anything else is just reactionary.

Each to their own but on recent form (the 4 warmup matches) Ireland have played 4 and won 2.

Ireland v Wales : Ireland won that in the first half whilst playing some attacking rugby, especially with Earls at 13. Died badly when Earls went off and to be fair, it was a 3rd string Welsh side. (possible 2nd string Irish side)

Scotland v Ireland : Again Ireland won but it was an absolute dire Ireland team to watch with no imagination in the midfield. Some would argue that it was also a pretty poor 4th string Scotland side so hardly impressive. (possible 2nd string Irish side)

Wales v Ireland : A true test with the Welsh putting out a solid side. Ireland completely found out and found wanting. Ireland showing no attacking flair or plan B approach.

England v Ireland : Again a true test with both sides putting out strong teams. Ireland well beaten and had England been more clinical in finishing, could have done a real number on Ireland. No attacking flair from Ireland and again, no plan B.

All in all, I feel it was a less than impressive run in from Ireland and actually started highlighting the issues I had been seen arising during the 6N. When Joe Schmidt arrived, I was in a very optimistic mood about Ireland and he did a very good job but he seems to have now stagnated. I know that many on here will abuse me for being a Munster fan for saying this but I do believe that the return of POC coincided more to Irelands success than that of Schmidt.

I think it has more to do with Toner becoming a first team player.PoC had years to exert this influence but he was never able to do it.

[ME-109]

My goodness it seems the Chunky Norwich affliction is contagious in terms of idiotic ramblings...

A bit of advice Billy. Dont question St Joe or the Stepford Wives will be angered.

[rodders]

Toner has indeed been a key man, but it's difficult to ignore what that Henderson fella can do.

By the way there is no secret attacking gameplan that will be sprung in the World Cup. We'll play the conservative kicking game. If we execute it well we have a good chance against anyone. If our accuracy is off we can be beaten. The only difference will be the patented Schmidt power plays off set pieces which we, along with every other team, have been keeping under wraps for while.

I concur big man. I think we might try and put a few on Georgia and Canada though, a ploy Schmidt used against Italy in the past 6N pretty well - grind them down with phase play and kicks in the first half then go for a few scores.

The area I'd be looking for most improvement is actually defense and hoping the warm-up games were an anomaly, with commitment and eagerness for contact way below the level that helped win us the 6N and beat the Wallabies.... hopefully this was just players feeling preseason training and maybe a bit of self preservation and not reflective of the intensity and organization we'll see once the tournament kicks off or we'll be feiced against France.....

[Sin é]

I don't think that it is ridiculous but thanks for your comment. I do believe that POC brings a leadership on the pitch (something that Schmidt does not have) and a calmness that got Schmidt's plans working. Schmidt himself said that it was great to have POC's leadership on this pitch.

You are deluded mate. So hard to take Munster fans seriously. Of course it is good to have POC on the pitch, he is a great player. He is not the reason Ireland have won back to back six nations though.

Yea, he was only Player of the Tournament having played 80 minutes of every game a few months back. No influence whatsoever on the back-to-back wins (which is probably more down to the decline of France than anything else).

[Sin é]

Can't agree with you at all,one game where Wales played well and weren't great proves nothing.It takes a run of consistent results before we can draw any conclusions,anything else is just reactionary.

Each to their own but on recent form (the 4 warmup matches) Ireland have played 4 and won 2.

Ireland v Wales : Ireland won that in the first half whilst playing some attacking rugby, especially with Earls at 13. Died badly when Earls went off and to be fair, it was a 3rd string Welsh side. (possible 2nd string Irish side)

Scotland v Ireland : Again Ireland won but it was an absolute dire Ireland team to watch with no imagination in the midfield. Some would argue that it was also a pretty poor 4th string Scotland side so hardly impressive. (possible 2nd string Irish side)

Wales v Ireland : A true test with the Welsh putting out a solid side. Ireland completely found out and found wanting. Ireland showing no attacking flair or plan B approach.

England v Ireland : Again a true test with both sides putting out strong teams. Ireland well beaten and had England been more clinical in finishing, could have done a real number on Ireland. No attacking flair from Ireland and again, no plan B.

All in all, I feel it was a less than impressive run in from Ireland and actually started highlighting the issues I had been seen arising during the 6N. When Joe Schmidt arrived, I was in a very optimistic mood about Ireland and he did a very good job but he seems to have now stagnated. I know that many on here will abuse me for being a Munster fan for saying this but I do believe that the return of POC coincided more to Irelands success than that of Schmidt.

I think it has more to do with Toner becoming a first team player.PoC had years to exert this influence but he was never able to do it.

Ah, you missed the Grand Slam then in 2009? How did Toner do previous to the last 2 years. He always looks poor when not partnered with POC. Same goes for Henderson as well. He wasn't great in the first Welsh game partnered with Ryan.

It was noticeable how they all improved when POC came on in the Scotland game. Thats the effect POC has. He lifts everyone's game.

[GunsGerms]

I don't think that it is ridiculous but thanks for your comment. I do believe that POC brings a leadership on the pitch (something that Schmidt does not have) and a calmness that got Schmidt's plans working. Schmidt himself said that it was great to have POC's leadership on this pitch.

You are deluded mate. So hard to take Munster fans seriously. Of course it is good to have POC on the pitch, he is a great player. He is not the reason Ireland have won back to back six nations though.

Yea, he was only Player of the Tournament having played 80 minutes of every game a few months back. No influence whatsoever on the back-to-back wins (which is probably more down to the decline of France than anything else).

You said it more or less. He is only one player. A fine player but really only a Munster fan could be deluded enough to think Ireland's back to back 6 nations were down to POC rather than having a good coach.

I knew some Munster fans were really needy but that is taking it to new levels.

[eirebilly]

I don't think that it is ridiculous but thanks for your comment. I do believe that POC brings a leadership on the pitch (something that Schmidt does not have) and a calmness that got Schmidt's plans working. Schmidt himself said that it was great to have POC's leadership on this pitch.

You are deluded mate. So hard to take Munster fans seriously. Of course it is good to have POC on the pitch, he is a great player. He is not the reason Ireland have won back to back six nations though.

Yea, he was only Player of the Tournament having played 80 minutes of every game a few months back. No influence whatsoever on the back-to-back wins (which is probably more down to the decline of France than anything else).

You said it more or less. He is only one player. A fine player but really only a Munster fan could be deluded enough to think Ireland's back to back 6 nations were down to POC rather than having a good coach.

I knew some Munster fans were really needy but that is taking it to new levels.

So if I understand you correctly, no back to back titles can be down to one person but can be down to one person (Schmidt)?

All I am saying is that POC is a major influence on the field and as Sin é said, he lifts the game of players around him.

[GunsGerms]

So if I understand you correctly, no back to back titles can be down to one person but can be down to one person (Schmidt)?

All I am saying is that POC is a major influence on the field and as Sin é said, he lifts the game of players around him.

No that's not all you are saying though is it. The difference is the coach isnt a player he is a coach. His job is to get the best out of players and to build a winning formulae which he not POC has done.

If Ireland lose its Schmidt's fault but if Ireland win it is down to POC. Is that right?

[eirebilly]

If Ireland lose, its the teams fault up to and including Schmidt. If Ireland win, its the team up to and including Schmidt.

All that I am saying is the when POC returned to the team, he lifted the boys more on the field than Schmidt could do and got the boys playing well. Most teams have that one influential player on the pitch that lifts their team mates.

[rodders]

I think the ladyboys and turnipheads are both right here.

Two critical components of a successful side are a great coach and a great captain - thankfully we have both...now shut the feic up with this interpro gobshoite wafflle please .

[RubyGuby]

I think the ladyboys and turnipheads are both right here.  

Two critical components of a successful side are a great coach and a great captain - thankfully we have both...now shut the feic up with this interpro gobshoite wafflle please .

Together Standing Tall - You tell 'em Rodders

[eirebilly]

If Ireland have both then whats going wrong rodders

[rodders]

If Ireland have both then whats going wrong rodders

Not enough Kiwis in the side

[GunsGerms]

I think the ladyboys and turnipheads are both right here.  

Two critical components of a successful side are a great coach and a great captain - thankfully we have both...now shut the feic up with this interpro gobshoite wafflle please .

I think you can measure the greatness of the Irish coach by Rodders' (or the nations) optimism levels. At the moment they are at an all time high. A far cry from the extreme pessimism of a few years ago. Am I wrong?

[GunsGerms]

Ferris reckons that Henderson should be shoehorned into the starting backrow at 6 to give the pack a bit more muscle. Cant say I disagree with him. Thoughts?

[RubyGuby]

Ferris reckons that Henderson should be shoehorned into the starting backrow at 6 to give the pack a bit more muscle. Cant say I disagree with him. Thoughts?

I understand the rationale but a very good 2nd row does not maketh a very good 6 IMO. If anything he replaces Toner at some stage as the backrow specialists are exactly that and you have sufficient talent there if you get the balance right. IMO he's too slow for a 6 but fast for a 2nd row. You either start with him instead of Toner or bring him on to add mobility and power when things are starting to get loose - Just my thoughts GG - Good luck to the men in green for the RWC

[rodders]

Ferris reckons that Henderson should be shoehorned into the starting backrow at 6 to give the pack a bit more muscle. Cant say I disagree with him. Thoughts?

First though is Ferris is his mate so not surprising!

Second thought is that he's right that neither SOB or POM are anywhere near top form.

Third is that Henderson was selected primarily as a lock so don't think Schmidt will start him in the back row.

Fourth is some rumors that SOB will be used from the bench and if so my guess is Murphy or Henry may start rather than Hendo.    

I think Schmidt will stick to plan - POC can't start all the group games and he won't want to burn Toner out either. I think Hendo will start maybe the second game at lock alongside Ryan and maybe some rotation against Italy too - beyond that I think he'll be used from the bench.

[GunsGerms]

Ferris reckons that Henderson should be shoehorned into the starting backrow at 6 to give the pack a bit more muscle. Cant say I disagree with him. Thoughts?

I understand the rationale but a very good 2nd row does not maketh a very good 6 IMO. If anything he replaces Toner at some stage as the backrow specialists are exactly that and you have sufficient talent there if you get the balance right. IMO he's too slow for a 6 but fast for a 2nd row. You either start with him instead of Toner or bring him on to add mobility and power when things are starting to get loose - Just my thoughts GG - Good luck to the men in green for the RWC

Henderson had always been a bit of a hybrid though. He has played enough in the back row to be able to slot in there. The biggest criticism of him is that he has never been good at learning lineout calls (according to Drico) and his biggest strength is his brute strength around the gainline and ruck. So maybe back row is a better place for him?

[ME-109]

I think the ladyboys and turnipheads are both right here.  

Two critical components of a successful side are a great coach and a great captain - thankfully we have both...now shut the feic up with this interpro gobshoite wafflle please .

I think you can measure the greatness of the Irish coach by Rodders' (or the nations) optimism levels. At the moment they are at an all time high. A far cry from the extreme pessimism of a few years ago. Am I wrong?

Plus the easy group relative to others...

[GunsGerms]

First though is Ferris is his mate so not surprising!

Second thought is that he's right that neither SOB or POM are anywhere near top form.

Third is that Henderson was selected primarily as a lock so don't think Schmidt will start him in the back row.

Fourth is some rumors that SOB will be used from the bench and if so my guess is Murphy or Henry may start rather than Hendo.    

I think Schmidt will stick to plan - POC can't start all the group games and he won't want to burn Toner out either. I think Hendo will start maybe the second game at lock alongside Ryan and maybe some rotation against Italy too - beyond that I think he'll be used from the bench.

I know he is his mate but why wouldnt Ferris suggest that he goes into the secondrow his favoured position then?

I would be tempted to start Henry at 7 too. Very under rated. Jury is out who should slot in at 6 IMO. POM is coming back from a shoulder injury and has never provided much beef anyway, Hendo could slot in and so could SOB.

[rodders]

I think the ladyboys and turnipheads are both right here.  

Two critical components of a successful side are a great coach and a great captain - thankfully we have both...now shut the feic up with this interpro gobshoite wafflle please .

I think you can measure the greatness of the Irish coach by Rodders' (or the nations) optimism levels. At the moment they are at an all time high. A far cry from the extreme pessimism of a few years ago. Am I wrong?

Yup- I'm 75% sure we'll make the final and 37.5% sure that we'll win it if we do.

Although as a note of caution - post Australia 2011 game I was a 100% sure we'd win the tournament but this dropped to 0% when Kidney dropped Sexton and picked ROG for the Wales game ...

[GunsGerms]

I think the ladyboys and turnipheads are both right here.  

Two critical components of a successful side are a great coach and a great captain - thankfully we have both...now shut the feic up with this interpro gobshoite wafflle please .

I think you can measure the greatness of the Irish coach by Rodders' (or the nations) optimism levels. At the moment they are at an all time high. A far cry from the extreme pessimism of a few years ago. Am I wrong?

Plus the easy group relative to others...

Cant say I disagree with that. To get to the final is potentially easier/similar than wining a grand slam IMO:

Beat:
Canada
Romania
Italy
France
Argentina
England

Vs

Beat:
England
Wales
France
Italy
Scotland

Anyone else agree/disagree that our potential route to the final is on a par or slightly easier than winning a slam?

[ME-109]

Exactly and because we have been winning slams left right and centre its a given no?

[GunsGerms]

Exactly and because we have been winning slams left right and centre its a given no?

To get to the final you obviously have to raise your game.

We have missed out on a slam due to the following losses:

2014: England 13–10 Ireland
2015: Wales 23–16 Ireland

Both one score losses, both away games. In other words we aren't far off. We wont have to face either of these teams until the semis and the only team we can possible face at home is England.

[eirebilly]

There is, of course, reasons to be positive about Irelands chances at this RWC but I think that some are seriously over-rating Ireland myself. I would personally be extremely happy if Ireland make the semi finals but I certainly cant see them getting to the final or winning it.

[rodders]

Beat:
Canada
Romania
Italy
France
Argentina
England

Vs

Beat:
England
Wales
France
Italy
Scotland

Anyone else agree/disagree that our potential route to the final is on a par or slightly easier than winning a slam?

Yes. I think the biggest challenge is winning the group - I think France won't be a walk over.

Both the QF and SF look very winnable. Not to dismiss Argentina but on NH soil I think they are beatable.

The SF is interesting because I think there is a very good chance we will face Australia - probably 50:50 with England although am sure a lot of people fancy England.

At that point either of those side would have played Fiji, Wales and each other, then a QF, which is a very tough run of fixtures, tougher than ours and both are fairly young and inconsistent sides.

Basically my biggest concern is winning the group and if we do I fancy us to get to the final on that side of the draw, with Australia being the biggest shark in the water rather than England who I think will buckle at some point and don't have the experience or consistency unless they've gained it in preseason.

Other side of the draw its going to be NZ or SA and I have a feeling the boks might make it. NZ are weak at 10 and with the tournament in England they are at a real disadvantage if they have to call anyone up versus any other side.

So I'm predicting SA versus either Ireland, France and Australia in the final.

Given we are the highest ranked and beat them all last time out that makes us tournament favorites in my eyes .

[George Carlin]

Lads - can I someone to create a second part to your World Cup thread as I'm going to have to lock this one because you all can't stop talking.

[rodders]

That'll be the excitement of being favourites I suppose ....

[Marshes]

Lads - can I someone to create a second part to your World Cup thread as I'm going to have to lock this one because you all can't stop talking.

Made a new thread here: https://www.606v2.com/t60561-ireland-rugby-world-cup-thread-continuation-flight-of-the-keith-earls

[GunsGerms]

I think you can measure the greatness of the Irish coach by Rodders' (or the nations) optimism levels. At the moment they are at an all time high. A far cry from the extreme pessimism of a few years ago. Am I wrong?

Yup- I'm 75% sure we'll make the final and 37.5% sure that we'll win it if we do.

Although as a note of caution - post Australia 2011 game I was a 100% sure we'd win the tournament but this dropped to 0% when Kidney dropped Sexton and picked ROG for the Wales game ...  [/quote]

Yeah the chopping and changing of OH was ridiculous.

[GunsGerms]

There is, of course, reasons to be positive about Irelands chances at this RWC but I think that some are seriously over-rating Ireland myself. I would personally be extremely happy if Ireland make the semi finals but I certainly cant see them getting to the final or winning it.

I think with the draw we have if we don't get to the semis we will have failed. Winning a semi would be a massively successful tournament and I cant really see us winning a final.

Id imagine most people see it that way. Realistically France and Argentina are teams we should beat and the success and failure of this WC campaign revolves around that IMO.

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