Ireland's Rugby World Cup 2015 Thread - "You're wrong on several counts..."

[Don Alfonso]

First topic message reminder :

Alright.

The time for whinging at the Welsh, sniping at the Scots and educating the English is done. Playtime is over. The bitterness is dialled up to ten, the eye-patches producing metaphorical one-eyedness are donned, chips are placed on shoulders – it’s time for some proper, down n’ dirty, internecine bickering.

Who will go to the 2015 Rugby World Cup to play for Ireland?

Who should go?



The players have the following opportunities to shine like a diamond for Joe:


Emerging Ireland Tbilisi Cup

Emerging Italy v Emerging Ireland
Saturday 13th June 14:00 BST

Uruguay v Emerging Ireland
Wednesday 17th June 14:00 BST

Georgia v Emerging Ireland
Sunday 21st June 16:00 BST


Ireland Matches

Wales v Ireland
Millennium Stadium
Saturday 8th August

Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 15th August

Ireland v Wales
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 29th August

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium
Saturday 5th September


31 players.

A 17/14 split? Has Madigan played himself off the plane? Do Ruddock or Trimble have enough time to make it back? Can Rory’s darts be trusted? Does POM spend too much time on the wing? Are Payne and Strauss “Irish” enough? Why is Reddan there? Has Zebo been by-passed? Is Cave too slow? Why Felix Jones?

HAVE AT THEE!

[Sin é]

Zebo looks like a Gazelle but runs like a carthorse -  a poor man's Fion Carr.

Thankfully Fitz, Bowe and the K brothers will save the day and score the tries.

They all run like carthorses, God ,love'em

Speaking of carthorses though...some of those Munster boys certainly had legs!!! when they actually got around to playing and putting the pressure on in the 5 or 10 minute spell after halftime.  I was impressed by how quickly the closed down big spaces.  Munster....

Maybe showing a little hint of true 'Irish' fitness levels.  Joe won't be happy but they did pull in their horns enough to hide the truth from most (Welsh) observers.

Speaking of fitness levels, ROG was on off the ball the other week saying that the French went altitude training and that the stats from the Top14 are showing they are covering an extra 1km a match on average compared to the first week of the season which is unheard of in previous top14 seasons.

I hope our plan isn't to 'move around the big french players for 60 minutes to tire them out, then pull away in the final 10-15 minutes'.  Even the french coaching ticket seem to have spotted that at this stage.

Altitude fitness doesn't last long - it would be only effectiveness for a week or so.

edit - actually its for 3 weeks.

[rodders]

The physiological changes may only last a few weeks but the fact that you can get much more intense training doing less volume means the players are in better shape physically than the numpties flogging themselves an sea level.

[SecretFly]

It lasts long enough for most teams to try to get to it in advance of this WC. New Zealand have their own. SA have their own. France have their own. Australia - never need it - good genes.

England and Wales always like a taster of it to get their spirits up and get them off to an early kicker.

We seem to think 6N prep will do it. Maybe it will. But other sides travel up for a reason.

[Sin é]

The physiological changes may only last a few weeks but the fact that you can get much more intense training doing less volume means the players are in better shape physically than the numpties flogging themselves an sea level.

Not so sure about that. Have you ever been at altitude? Its difficult enough to move, let alone train. You might be able to train better for the 3 weeks after it (though I think the Welsh were sleeping high and training low).

[rodders]

The physiological changes may only last a few weeks but the fact that you can get much more intense training doing less volume means the players are in better shape physically than the numpties flogging themselves an sea level.

Not so sure about that. Have you ever been at altitude? Its difficult enough to move, let alone train.

Yup I have and couldn't have ran the length of myself - but they won't be at high altitude, more like 2000-2500 metres.

Wales were training low and sleeping high - seemed like a good idea but then they all got injured!

[rodders]

Anyways it looks like Joe is going for a staggered approach.

One team will play the opening game with a second set of players still in training to peak later against France.

Genius if it works!

[Sin é]

The physiological changes may only last a few weeks but the fact that you can get much more intense training doing less volume means the players are in better shape physically than the numpties flogging themselves an sea level.

Not so sure about that. Have you ever been at altitude? Its difficult enough to move, let alone train.

Yup I have and couldn't have ran the length of myself - but they won't be at high altitude, more like 2000-2500 metres.

Wales were training low and sleeping high - seemed like a good idea but then they all got injured!

2000 metres is pretty high. I've certainly felt it anyway. Highest I've been is about 5,500 metres (Everest Base Camp).

[SecretFly]

I don't like all the talk of us just planning perfectly to peak at the right time in the right week.

That's bullschidt.  And it isn't Joe saying it.  It's a few players and the media concocting 'narratives'.

If we keep this up we'll be as bad as the English media and followers (of the past), thinking we're going to turn it on just when we need to and push all enemies aside with oodles of energy and pace.

If Joe has been working on form and trying to mould it for the WC then he'll simply want it ready in all players now, not still bubbling in the science chambers to be ready for the second half against France.

If his team are in top form, he's been disguising it by choosing puff'n'huff tactics that put them under pressure and not allowing them to get ahead of themselves.  If he is still trying to bring them to form at the right time then he's bluffing himself and us.  

They're as ready as they'll ever be now.  And will notch things up if needed/when needed.  Not saying they'll be fine - but the conditioning is done.  Anything they have, they have it already in the bank.

[Gwlad]

Except winning g, they dont have that in the bank and they're sliding down the ranking. Inconsistent and reliant on the form of one or two key players. Ireland are notoriously average at RWC and I think italy will sniff an opportunity. In my opinion France will win easily and top the group

[SecretFly]

France might very well win easily and top the group.  

Anything is possible.  It's funny that I was quite alone this last two years when I was saying France have their own agenda always - they don't give a flying f**k about the Home Nations rhythms or the Lions tour and they don't avail of post-Lions form every four years like is the constant myth of self-importance propagated by the Lions Nations - but they do like the WC.... and virtually always have a real go.  That's their priority and what they prepare for.

So you might very well be right.  But we'll see.  The fun, and torture, is in seeing what transpires.

[eirebilly]

Against Wales in the 6N, Ireland were found out with the kicking game-plan and were beaten. Against England and France, they were also countered easily but won those games due to France and England's inability to finish off their chances. Ireland simply played a containing game after getting the lead in both those matches. Some saw those victories as easily won matches but i saw some very worrying trends in those matches that have continued into the RWC warm up matches.

Ireland simply look ordinary in the backs with the ball in hand. As i have said many times, i am not sure if that is Schmidt being clever and not showing anything (risky tactic) or Ireland simply have the wrong balance in the midfield. I think its a bit of both but can see Ireland struggling if they do not get some fluidity in the backs leading up to the crunch matches.

S.A.,Oz,England and France didn't find out the kicking game so I think it's far more accurate to say that Wales just performed better than us on the day.

We have looked pretty ordinary in the backs but I feel very confident that our passing,running and rucking will be at a much improved level and that will result in the same gameplan becoming far more effective,gaps will appear in defenses and we'll be more ruthless in taking advantage of our chances.

With respect, SA, OZ, England and France answered all the questions given to them with Irelands kicking game-plan. The major problem I have with this kicking game-plan is that Ireland (the kicker and the chasers) have to be bang on and hope that the top sides are having a slightly off day for it to be effective enough to win them the majority of games.

Gaps have appeared in defences but Ireland have not shown the attacking flair to exploit them. Its very easy to say that they will but as they haven't as yet, I get the feeling that Ireland are not fully prepared for such a style of play. I feel as if Ireland do not have that extra gear to go up to and it worries me.

The problem with that statement is that Ireland have won over70% of matches,so against every team bar NZ,if what you say is correct then every time we've won it's been because the opposition weren't at their best.I just don't believe that to be the case.

I am saying it was a very good tactic when first deployed, won Ireland quite a few matches but now Ireland have not changed styles and have had other teams set themselves up for Ireland's tactic. The 70% you refer to is great but does not help in going forward as teams are awake to Ireland's one dimensional attack.

[asoreleftshoulder]

It will take a larger sample size before we can say that teams have figured out how to stop it.Wales in the 6N are only one example versus all the teams that couldn't cope with it while we won two 6N titles and had a clean sweep in the AI's.

[eirebilly]

I disagree, it only requires being found out once and other teams coaches will analyze the games and set up their defenses accordingly. The only times that predictable game-plans win consistently is when teams are simply that much better than the rest and I don't believe Ireland are that much better than the rest as recent results have highlighted.

Ireland have yet to show that they can adjust successfully in match situations where they find themselves chasing the game. These game-plans (if there are any) need to be tried out in match situations sooner rather than later or ireland will be home earlier than many expect.

[rodders]

I don't like all the talk of us just planning perfectly to peak at the right time in the right week.

That's bullschidt.  And it isn't Joe saying it.  It's a few players and the media concocting 'narratives'.

Actually Joe did say. After the England game he said some of the players were still some way off match fitness and that they were taking a calculated risk with the preparation to peak a few weeks later than other sides. Rory Best, Tommy Bowe and O'Connell have said the same which supports what Kay was saying.

Certain players were given an extended break and started their preparation later with a mind to peak later in the tournament - specifically October 11th - this includes Sexton, Bowe, Best, Murray, Toner, O'Connell, Fitzgerald, Kearney... whereas another group of more fringe players are 2-3 weeks ahead to be ready to go in the pool games.

My guess is that there will be some level of rotation in the first 3 games with the full deck going in against France.

[eirebilly]

To me, the risk of calculating / attempting to time players fitness leaves too many issues open for Ireland. This, coupled with the supposed hiding of game-plans makes me very nervous.

[Pete330v2]

I don't like all the talk of us just planning perfectly to peak at the right time in the right week.

That's bullschidt.  And it isn't Joe saying it.  It's a few players and the media concocting 'narratives'.

Actually Joe did say. After the England game he said some of the players were still some way off match fitness and that they were taking a calculated risk with the preparation to peak a few weeks later than other sides. Rory Best, Tommy Bowe and O'Connell have said the same which supports what Kay was saying.

Certain players were given an extended break and started their preparation later with a mind to peak later in the tournament - specifically October 11th - this includes Sexton, Bowe, Best, Murray, Toner, O'Connell, Fitzgerald, Kearney... whereas another group of more fringe players are 2-3 weeks ahead to be ready to go in the pool games.

My guess is that there will be some level of rotation in the first 3 games with the full deck going in against France.

I think it makes the most sense with the group we're in and the order the games are being played. It's no insult to Canada and Romania to treat them as extra warm-ups and Italy will be the final piece of tough preparation before we take on the French. It's fairly typical of the kind of formulaic approach Joe would be taking to this kind of challenge.

[eirebilly]

People are of the belief that Ireland will cruise through this group. I am not so certain myself as Italy will be a test but France seem to be gelling very well and have the players to beat Ireland.

Maybe Schmidt is not the only coach getting his players match fit for the right time?

[SecretFly]

I don't like all the talk of us just planning perfectly to peak at the right time in the right week.

That's bullschidt.  And it isn't Joe saying it.  It's a few players and the media concocting 'narratives'.

Actually Joe did say. After the England game he said some of the players were still some way off match fitness and that they were taking a calculated risk with the preparation to peak a few weeks later than other sides. Rory Best, Tommy Bowe and O'Connell have said the same which supports what Kay was saying.

Certain players were given an extended break and started their preparation later with a mind to peak later in the tournament - specifically October 11th - this includes Sexton, Bowe, Best, Murray, Toner, O'Connell, Fitzgerald, Kearney... whereas another group of more fringe players are 2-3 weeks ahead to be ready to go in the pool games.

My guess is that there will be some level of rotation in the first 3 games with the full deck going in against France.

Well add him to the clap trap 'narrative'  Tommy Bowe has had two years to get into WC form.  He's cutting it fine.  I hope he plays a blinder.  
The fitness work is done.  it has to be done because they have to practice... the guys in the early selections (early games) need practice against realisticallly primed opposition.  If half the squad are walking around and only half hitting and half attacking and half-assed interested, then that's not a very high quality camp that's going on there.

They haven't tightened up yet is what I feel Schmidt is alluding to.  They haven't pushed the drills to get the systems fully up to speed with no room for errors or a tongue lashing if those errors occur.  But I'd guess and pray that the players in the squad, all of them, are already at the fitness levels to get down to concentrating fully on the detail of each match gameplan now.

[SecretFly]

People are of the belief that Ireland will cruise through this group. I am not so certain myself as Italy will be a test but France seem to be gelling very well and have the players to beat Ireland.

Maybe Schmidt is not the only coach getting his players match fit for the right time?

France are holding back their true intensity levels for us????? never!! We're the only side in the world cute enough to do that kinda stuff No, France have shown us everything they have and are easily beatable on the evidence................

I jest GOD!!!!! I'm only joking. Don't take it personal and jinx us out of spite now!

[Golden]

Whose doing the RWC coverage for TV3?

[GunsGerms]

People are of the belief that Ireland will cruise through this group. I am not so certain myself as Italy will be a test but France seem to be gelling very well and have the players to beat Ireland.

Maybe Schmidt is not the only coach getting his players match fit for the right time?

Nobody thinks Ireland will cruise through it. We do however, have one of the easier groups and one of the best schedules with our easier games first and then the second toughest game the penultimate game with the France game as the finale and decider.

Besed on the fact that we havent lost to France in a while and we are back to back six nations champions we are favorites to win the group again and we should be good enough to do so. Anything less is failure in my opinion.

That said I agree re France, they are one of our biggest nemisis, they are a world cup team and we have never defeated them in a world cup game nor a world cup warm up game so it wont be easy at all.

[GunsGerms]

Whose doing the RWC coverage for TV3?

Stuart Barnes is a commentator anyway I think.

[Sin é]

Whose doing the RWC coverage for TV3?

Pretty good selection in fairness:

Matt Cooper, Keith Wood, Shane Jennings (I think he is excellent), Peter Stringer, Liam Toland, Stuart Barnes, Murray Kinsella (another excellent one), Neil Back, Hugo McNeill and Sinead Kissane.

[SecretFly]

Pity about the insistence on maintaining Big Bang Noise quality levels for their terrestrial channel. A slap in the face for people who can get them legally from Earth and absolutely counter-intuitive to the way all TV must go to stay in the market.
Folks no longer tolerate 70s style vision quality in the 21st Century. They could have used the WC to go fully HD on all platforms.

[RubyGuby]

I think Ireland are guaranteed a runners up spot in their group. Who's next for them in the 1/4s?

[eirebilly]

Aah Guru, nice to see you pop in to try and wind us up

[SecretFly]

I think Ireland are guaranteed a runners up spot in their group. Who's next for them in the 1/4s?

We'll knock out the All Blacks for everyone. And I hope we get bloody thanked this time! I'll be sad though, 'cause they've always been my second team.

[George Carlin]

Jaysus - you kids are slow with your match threads, like
https://www.606v2.com/t60533-ireland-v-canada-19-september

[RubyGuby]

I think Ireland are guaranteed a runners up spot in their group. Who's next for them in the 1/4s?

We'll knock out the All Blacks for everyone.  And I hope we get bloody thanked this time!  I'll be sad though, 'cause they've always been my second team.

This time? - Did I miss the last time - and as if I would try to wind up Eirebilly and his lovely mate the not so Secret-Fly - It would be good to see Ireland progress though

[SecretFly]

Do you know me, Ruby???

Has my secret been sprung?

Have you hacked into my systems and found the truth!!!???? *gulp*

[SecretFly]

I think Ireland are guaranteed a runners up spot in their group. Who's next for them in the 1/4s?

We'll knock out the All Blacks for everyone.  And I hope we get bloody thanked this time!  I'll be sad though, 'cause they've always been my second team.

This time? - Did I miss the last time - and as if I would try to wind up Eirebilly and his lovely mate the not so Secret-Fly  - It would be good to see Ireland progress though  

I was thinking more about last time we tried to give the Europeans (of which I'm not one) an easier route by beating the Aussies who were expected to beat the bloomin'bejaysus out of us....

[Golden]

Whose doing the RWC coverage for TV3?

Pretty good selection in fairness:

Matt Cooper, Keith Wood, Shane Jennings (I think he is excellent), Peter Stringer, Liam Toland, Stuart Barnes, Murray Kinsella (another excellent one), Neil Back, Hugo McNeill and Sinead Kissane.

Cheers.

Sounds like a good panel alright.

[RubyGuby]

I think Ireland are guaranteed a runners up spot in their group. Who's next for them in the 1/4s?

We'll knock out the All Blacks for everyone.  And I hope we get bloody thanked this time!  I'll be sad though, 'cause they've always been my second team.

This time? - Did I miss the last time - and as if I would try to wind up Eirebilly and his lovely mate the not so Secret-Fly  - It would be good to see Ireland progress though  

I was thinking more about last time we tried to give the Europeans (of which I'm not one) an easier route by beating the Aussies who were expected to beat the bloomin'bejaysus out of us....

Your lads are renowned for always having 1 good game in them you knows that

[eirebilly]

Your lads are renowned for always having 1 good game in them you knows that

Hey you cheeky feicar, 1 and a half good games...

[SecretFly]

...Like the French in that final. One good game is all it would take. Pity about the corrupt ref!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oops...don't let Chunky see that.... I said nothing.

[RubyGuby]

Your lads are renowned for always having 1 good game in them you knows that

Hey you cheeky feicar, 1 and a half good games...

The thing is Billy the other 1/2 is always the first half of the other game

[rodders]

I think it makes the most sense with the group we're in and the order the games are being played. It's no insult to Canada and Romania to treat them as extra warm-ups and Italy will be the final piece of tough preparation before we take on the French. It's fairly typical of the kind of formulaic approach Joe would be taking to this kind of challenge.

Au contraire mon ami.... I don't think Joe is talking Canada or Romania lightly at all - I believe he has one group slightly staggered to be fresher and peaking in October - he'll have a team fully primed for Canada and overall will have the whole panel fully prepared for each game.

I remember he did a similar thing in the 6N - he had 2 groups one preparing for the next game and the other preparing for the subsequent one and rehearsing 2 different game plans.

[rodders]

Your lads are renowned for always having 1 good game in them you knows that

Hopefully this time we'll save that one for the final

[eirebilly]

Your lads are renowned for always having 1 good game in them you knows that

Hey you cheeky feicar, 1 and a half good games...

The thing is Billy the other 1/2 is always the first half of the other game  

Jeebus, I am all doom and gloom now

[RubyGuby]

Together Standing Tall boys

I think your all missing the point here, you will win your group - France will stuff you and then of course they'll lose to Canada and draw with Italy and scrape runners up. Its just a French thing

Getting excited

[SecretFly]

So France want to start at the end and work backwards? I hope we put in a protest. We need easy games first, like all the others....

[asoreleftshoulder]

I disagree, it only requires being found out once and other teams coaches will analyze the games and set up their defenses accordingly. The only times that predictable game-plans win consistently is when teams are simply that much better than the rest and I don't believe Ireland are that much better than the rest as recent results have highlighted.

Ireland have yet to show that they can adjust successfully in match situations where they find themselves chasing the game. These game-plans (if there are any) need to be tried out in match situations sooner rather than later or ireland will be home earlier than many expect.

Can't agree with you at all,one game where Wales played well and weren't great proves nothing.It takes a run of consistent results before we can draw any conclusions,anything else is just reactionary.

[rodders]

Plus we were robbed by Wayne Barnes - hard to plan for that.

[RubyGuby]

I disagree, it only requires being found out once and other teams coaches will analyze the games and set up their defenses accordingly. The only times that predictable game-plans win consistently is when teams are simply that much better than the rest and I don't believe Ireland are that much better than the rest as recent results have highlighted.

Ireland have yet to show that they can adjust successfully in match situations where they find themselves chasing the game. These game-plans (if there are any) need to be tried out in match situations sooner rather than later or ireland will be home earlier than many expect.

Can't agree with you at all,one game where Wales played well and weren't great proves nothing.It takes a run of consistent results before we can draw any conclusions,anything else is just reactionary.

Wouldn't that be 2 games

[eirebilly]

Can't agree with you at all,one game where Wales played well and weren't great proves nothing.It takes a run of consistent results before we can draw any conclusions,anything else is just reactionary.

Each to their own but on recent form (the 4 warmup matches) Ireland have played 4 and won 2.

Ireland v Wales : Ireland won that in the first half whilst playing some attacking rugby, especially with Earls at 13. Died badly when Earls went off and to be fair, it was a 3rd string Welsh side. (possible 2nd string Irish side)

Scotland v Ireland : Again Ireland won but it was an absolute dire Ireland team to watch with no imagination in the midfield. Some would argue that it was also a pretty poor 4th string Scotland side so hardly impressive. (possible 2nd string Irish side)

Wales v Ireland : A true test with the Welsh putting out a solid side. Ireland completely found out and found wanting. Ireland showing no attacking flair or plan B approach.

England v Ireland : Again a true test with both sides putting out strong teams. Ireland well beaten and had England been more clinical in finishing, could have done a real number on Ireland. No attacking flair from Ireland and again, no plan B.

All in all, I feel it was a less than impressive run in from Ireland and actually started highlighting the issues I had been seen arising during the 6N. When Joe Schmidt arrived, I was in a very optimistic mood about Ireland and he did a very good job but he seems to have now stagnated. I know that many on here will abuse me for being a Munster fan for saying this but I do believe that the return of POC coincided more to Irelands success than that of Schmidt.

[SecretFly]

Just bear in mind, it's usually when people expect a lot from us and we look GOOD in the build up that we tend to fall on our butts either from over-training without the ball or over-fighting amongst ourselves about Provincial niggles (allegedly )

It would appear Joe has been able to come on board, strengthen and solidify just about everywhere (well, 13 is still a hard number to work on after what we were used to) - but overall, he's managed to drag us up and slap us into shape enough to have been 2nd in the World on the back of two 6Ns.... and now, he's managed to almost casually take all that expectations off our backs again in the blink of an eye.

I was looking at some Australian and New Zealand press stuff a few days ago and barely a mention of us (that's changed from a few short months ago!)  Even in the British media, the talk has gone back to the usual suspects - Australia, England, New Zealand SA and good outside bets Wales.

We're coming in well under the radar again - and isn't that the considered best vantage point for any irish team with ambitions to upset the bookies?

So like I keep saying, Joe has done quite a bit in recent months that either plots him out as a surprisingly weak tactical coach at International level or he's just proven how very smart he is yet again.

We'll see which it is shortly.

[GunsGerms]

Eirebilly, I have some concerns re the warmup games too. Wales and England were better for sure and we were quite sloppy. However, can you remember many times Ireland teams under Schmidt have not fronted up when it really matters. His win loss record is very good and we are back to back champions. With our fixture list getting to the WC final should be on paper no more difficult that a six nations grand slam and we aren't too far off achieving that.

I certainly expect Ireland to be much better in our key world cup games. Schmidt's focus to date has been to get the whole squad to perform the basics really really well so that there is a strong foundation there for everyone to sing off the same hymn sheet. I think this game plan lends itself well to world cup matches which are historically lower scoring than any other series of games in international rugby.

I wouldn't be surprised if Schmidt looks to integrate some more creativity into our back play but for now he has given the squad a strong platform for success at the world cup.

[eirebilly]

But Ireland have not been doing the basics that well of late. Even during the 6N Ireland has issues with the basics, Ireland (IMO) were slightly the best of a very poor bunch in the recent 6N.

Where is the creativity going to come from in the backs? The only time in recent months that Ireland looked attacking orientated was in the first game against Wales with Earls at 13. Will Schmidt select Earls at 13 (or for that matter Cave at 12 and Henshaw at 13) for big matches? I doubt it, he will stick with Henshaw and Payne and although Henshaw looks to attack, Payne doesn't so I cant believe that Ireland will change tactics.

I would love Ireland to do better but I cant see it as I find Schmidt to be overly pragmatic and constricting in regards to open play offense. Totally different to what he was like at Leinster.

[GunsGerms]

I know that many on here will abuse me for being a Munster fan for saying this but I do believe that the return of POC coincided more to Irelands success than that of Schmidt.

Fairly ridiculous comment to be honest and yes it is because you are a Munster fan. Everyone knows how good a player POC is but Ireland are infinitely more organized than they were in the 2013 campaign under Kidney when we had a shocker. I actually think that Ireland have won every game that Poc has missed since Schmidt took over including two emphatic wins v Wales.

[eirebilly]

I don't think that it is ridiculous but thanks for your comment. I do believe that POC brings a leadership on the pitch (something that Schmidt does not have) and a calmness that got Schmidt's plans working. Schmidt himself said that it was great to have POC's leadership on this pitch.

[Sponsored content]