Ireland's Rugby World Cup 2015 Thread - "You're wrong on several counts..."

[Don Alfonso]

First topic message reminder :

Alright.

The time for whinging at the Welsh, sniping at the Scots and educating the English is done. Playtime is over. The bitterness is dialled up to ten, the eye-patches producing metaphorical one-eyedness are donned, chips are placed on shoulders – it’s time for some proper, down n’ dirty, internecine bickering.

Who will go to the 2015 Rugby World Cup to play for Ireland?

Who should go?



The players have the following opportunities to shine like a diamond for Joe:


Emerging Ireland Tbilisi Cup

Emerging Italy v Emerging Ireland
Saturday 13th June 14:00 BST

Uruguay v Emerging Ireland
Wednesday 17th June 14:00 BST

Georgia v Emerging Ireland
Sunday 21st June 16:00 BST


Ireland Matches

Wales v Ireland
Millennium Stadium
Saturday 8th August

Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 15th August

Ireland v Wales
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 29th August

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium
Saturday 5th September


31 players.

A 17/14 split? Has Madigan played himself off the plane? Do Ruddock or Trimble have enough time to make it back? Can Rory’s darts be trusted? Does POM spend too much time on the wing? Are Payne and Strauss “Irish” enough? Why is Reddan there? Has Zebo been by-passed? Is Cave too slow? Why Felix Jones?

HAVE AT THEE!

[eirebilly]

Great news on Trimble. Hoping he can now deliver v Wales which I think he will. Moore in a moon boot doesn't inspire confidence but from what Kiss is saying I'm still hoping both he and Healy can make it.

That all depends on the centre pairing, put Payne at 13 and Trimble will struggle to see the ball. I truely hope that Schmidt plays a more offensive centre with the ball getting to the wings more, then we will see Trimble shine.

[Notch]

Here's what Robbie Henshaw has to say about Jared Payne;

“I was just having a word with one of the lads during the week about how I was just amazed by the amount of time he has on the ball. When he has it on his hands, it seems like players are rushing around him, that kind of way.
He is a balanced kind of player and when he has the ball he is looking to exploit the defence and in his defensive game as well he always makes the right read and he always has your back and he is really perfect to have outside you in that number 13 shirt. He has done really well for us. It just seems like he doesn’t panic when he is on the ball. He just plays what is in front of him and is just a really good player.”

[Artful_Dodger]

Schmidt wants Payne for his defence. Outside centre is often considered as the most difficult position to defend. Payne hasn't put a foot wrong there. Against Scotland his tackle stats were 13/0 (13 made 0 missed) and thats in a game were we missed an awful lot of tackles. It was the same in the 6N in which he started every game at 13, his defence there is as good as you are going to get in international rugby. Its easy to say play a more attacking 13, but actually, the obvious choice is Earls who is more of a running threat than a distributor that would get the backline going. I've no doubt Payne is going to be our man at 13 in the big games come the WC.

[eirebilly]

I certainly do not query Payne's inclusion is based on his defensive capabilities, he is a very very good defender. My problem is with his distribution and attacking abilities, he has not shown anything internationally that leads me to believe that he is capable of attacking play.

Earls is not as bad a defender as most would have you believe and i do feel that he brings more attacking qualities that would cover for his 'supposed' defensive frailties. I am not cchampioning Earls for 13, i would prefer to have Henshaw at 13 but i do believe that Earls is more suited at 13 than Payne. His distribution, which is constantly called poor by some, is again not as bad as some would have you think and he marshals the defensive line excellently.

[Notch]

I just don't think Payne is bad in attack, or has been bad in attack for Ireland- and I think he had a very good game against Scotland with ball in hand contrary to your analysis. I expect you to reply with disbelief, but that's how I feel about your point of view as well. Certainly I'm not alone in seeing the value of Payne in an attacking sense though. I think you're either not giving him a fair hearing, or you see major line breaks as the only gauge of success for an outside centre. I think his contribution has been more subtle than that, but certainly I don't think anyone can argue at the yards he's made in the tackle and his handling and passing of the ball since he came into the team. I think consistently, every time he gets the ball he does something right. It's all the smaller contributions that add up throughout the whole game that make the difference.

I also don't think that the wingers will be getting more or less ball regardless of who is picked at 13. I mean, against Scotland nearly every time we tried to attack in the wider channels the ball went straight from 10 to 15 to get Zebo involved from fullback. Considering we play a style of rugby where most of it is one or two passes from the ruck, quick recycle, until eventually we go wide or kick it's pretty reductive to think that one change at 13 is going to be the main factor in seeing how much ball gets out wide. Even if we use our 13 in the most limited and conservative sense possible where he cuts inside and takes contact every time he gets the ball, that ball is still going to be going wide or going into the air for a winger to chase a few phases later. The speed we clear the rucks at, the tempo we maintain throughout the game, and the distribution of our halfbacks, the ability of the wingers to judge when to come off their wing and their ability to run good trailing lines- all much more key to determining how much of the ball they see than who plays 13.

[eirebilly]

Notch,

Contrary to my analysis... Please point out where i said he had a bad game against Scotland? For the record, i believe he had a very solid defensive game but also was not exactly an attacking threat against a pretty much 2nd/3rd string Scotland team.

I also have not said that he has NO attacking potential, i am saying that i have not seen it at International level as yet. I see nothing wrong with that statement. I respect your point of view but believe you are championing him as if he is the perfect player...

[Notch]

I didn't mean any offence, I saw on the Scotland thread you posted this so thats what I was referring to;

My first day free since the game so i re-watched the game and i must say that i thought that Payne was ordinary to say the least in attack. Defense he was solid but this not offering anything in attack is a serious worry for me if he stays as starting 13.

I had thought he played well not just in defence against Scotland, but also it's my opinion he was good in attack when he had the chance. I didn't think you were saying he had a bad game against Scotland, just disagreeing with your analysis of his not offering much in attack in that game.

He's not the perfect player. He could use an extra bit of pace, that would top it off. Thats the one weakness I can see you could argue about. He's got the rest. Other than that, he's just as much a mortal as any rugby player.

[eirebilly]

I stand by what i said, i dont hink he has offered anything in attack for Ireland yet. I do think that he is very solid in defence but he has shown very little, if any, influence in attack. I believe in one game he threw zero offloads... Tactics or ability at International level?

I can see where you feel that i think he had a poor game but i dont think that he was poor, he was ordinary in attack but solid in defence. To me, many are building him up as the perfect 13 and i think that he is far from that as a 13 also has to have attacking abilities at international level. Again, not saying he does not have them just that he has not shown them in my opinion.

People are very quick to highlight any issues with Earls' offloading ability and defensive capabilities but champion Payne as if he is as good as BOD and seemingly seem unable to accept that he does have issues in attack.

As i have said before, i believe that Henshaw is the best option at 13 for Ireland. Not that he has done badly as a 12, far from it, but because i see him as an excellent 13. I would actually have Payne at 15 ahead of Kearney...

[Guest]

I stand by what i said, i dont hink he has offered anything in attack for Ireland yet. I do think that he is very solid in defence but he has shown very little, if any, influence in attack. I believe in one game he threw zero offloads... Tactics or ability at International level?

I can see where you feel that i think he had a poor game but i dont think that he was poor, he was ordinary in attack but solid in defence. To me, many are building him up as the perfect 13 and i think that he is far from that as a 13 also has to have attacking abilities at international level. Again, not saying he does not have them just that he has not shown them in my opinion.

People are very quick to highlight any issues with Earls' offloading ability and defensive capabilities but champion Payne as if he is as good as BOD and seemingly seem unable to accept that he does have issues in attack.

As i have said before, i believe that Henshaw is the best option at 13 for Ireland. Not that he has done badly as a 12, far from it, but because i see him as an excellent 13. I would actually have Payne at 15 ahead of Kearney...

That might be because he plays under Schmidts instruction.

Henshaw has high praise for Payne, and helps give insight into the questions of offence/defence you ask:

"....the main thing, creating that relationship that no one would break us, and I suppose the attacking things are coming now and we’re learning from one another every week so I think it’s really expanding"

That's just a snippet. The article is well worth a read: Just4eirebilly

[eirebilly]

I dont particularly read too much into those interviews myself, i mean what is he going to say otherwise?
If Cave was in 12 and Henshaw at 13 do you really think that Henshaw would say something different about Cave? I would wager that he would say something almost identical.

I just see him as not being an attacking threat as yet (tactics or ability). People seem very quick to highlight the weakness' of players like Earls whereas Payne seems to be above criticism, why is that?

[Sin é]

I stand by what i said, i dont hink he has offered anything in attack for Ireland yet. I do think that he is very solid in defence but he has shown very little, if any, influence in attack. I believe in one game he threw zero offloads... Tactics or ability at International level?

I can see where you feel that i think he had a poor game but i dont think that he was poor, he was ordinary in attack but solid in defence. To me, many are building him up as the perfect 13 and i think that he is far from that as a 13 also has to have attacking abilities at international level. Again, not saying he does not have them just that he has not shown them in my opinion.

People are very quick to highlight any issues with Earls' offloading ability and defensive capabilities but champion Payne as if he is as good as BOD and seemingly seem unable to accept that he does have issues in attack.

As i have said before, i believe that Henshaw is the best option at 13 for Ireland. Not that he has done badly as a 12, far from it, but because i see him as an excellent 13. I would actually have Payne at 15 ahead of Kearney...

That might be because he plays under Schmidts instruction.

Henshaw has high praise for Payne, and helps give insight into the questions of offence/defence you ask:

"....the main thing, creating that relationship that no one would break us, and I suppose the attacking things are coming now and we’re learning from one another every week so I think it’s really expanding"

That's just a snippet. The article is well worth a read: Just4eirebilly

Presumably Payne and Earls would be under the same instructions from Schmidt?

[Guest]

I stand by what i said, i dont hink he has offered anything in attack for Ireland yet. I do think that he is very solid in defence but he has shown very little, if any, influence in attack. I believe in one game he threw zero offloads... Tactics or ability at International level?

I can see where you feel that i think he had a poor game but i dont think that he was poor, he was ordinary in attack but solid in defence. To me, many are building him up as the perfect 13 and i think that he is far from that as a 13 also has to have attacking abilities at international level. Again, not saying he does not have them just that he has not shown them in my opinion.

People are very quick to highlight any issues with Earls' offloading ability and defensive capabilities but champion Payne as if he is as good as BOD and seemingly seem unable to accept that he does have issues in attack.

As i have said before, i believe that Henshaw is the best option at 13 for Ireland. Not that he has done badly as a 12, far from it, but because i see him as an excellent 13. I would actually have Payne at 15 ahead of Kearney...

That might be because he plays under Schmidts instruction.

Henshaw has high praise for Payne, and helps give insight into the questions of offence/defence you ask:

"....the main thing, creating that relationship that no one would break us, and I suppose the attacking things are coming now and we’re learning from one another every week so I think it’s really expanding"

That's just a snippet. The article is well worth a read: Just4eirebilly

Presumably Payne and Earls would be under the same instructions from Schmidt?

I suppose you can presume, but presumption is still more probability than fact. We don't know. What we do know is that which Henshaw has imparted to us. You are of course free to ignore
I think it's probable that Schmidt asked Earls to play offensively, and not Payne. I think this considering the opposition and the game Earls was involved in. It was a weak Wales in a warm up game. Not a 6N's, or even an Autumn international. The winning didn't matter so much. Finding out what Earls could do did matter. Added to that is the belief that Schmidt now wants his game plan to be more attacking.

[Sin é]

Payne maybe a good tackler, but the Ireland defence was a shambles v Scotland.
This makes me laugh because Earls was noticeable organising the defence against Wales (and it was good until after he went off). Payne was surrounded by very good defensive players (D'Arcy and Fitzgerald), yet the defence was poor and Payne could have done something to try and organise it.

[Guest]

Yep, the Scotland game was all Paynes fault

[eirebilly]

I suppose you can presume, but presumption is still more probability than fact. We don't know. What we do know is that which Henshaw has imparted to us. You are of course free to ignore
I think it's probable that Schmidt asked Earls to play offensively, and not Payne. I think this considering the opposition and the game earls was involved in. It was a weak Wales in a warm up game. Not a 6N's, or even an Autumn international. The winning didn't matter so much. Finding out what Earls could do did matter. Added to that is the belief that Schmidt now wants his game plan to be more attacking.

It was also a very weak Scotland team in a warmup game. Why would Schmidt want to see what Earls could do offensively and not what Payne could do offensively considering Payne has not been offensive in any of his previous games. Surely the Scotland game would have been the perfect game for Payne to show his attacking qualities?

I am still unsure if it is actually Schmidt's tactics or Paynes ability to attack at International level. We all know how good he is defensively so what would Schmidt have learnt about Payne during that game?

I still see Payne as the better option at 15 than Kearney.

[Guest]

Maybe because he was looking for something in particular with Earls and not Payne. I don't know, eirebilly, and neither do you.
Henshaw seems to answer those questions to some extent. He is very impressed with Payne and envisages a future pairing with Payne.
You can ignore Henshaws comments, but I won't. To me they are much more relevant than presumption.

[eirebilly]

I do not know, you are right on that but it does leave an uneasy feeling in my stomach. If it is tactics, then fair enough i am happy with it but if it is not then it is a worry for Ireland i feel.

As i asked before, why is it that Payne is above criticism on here? People keep painting him as the best 13 going and all those people seem unable to see any faults in him yet are very quick to find faults in players competing for his 13 shirt.

As i previously said, Henshaw would almost certainly say the same things about any player he was partnered with so i read very little into those interviews myself. Thats just me though, could be right and could be wrong.

[Guest]

I don't believe Payne is above criticism. Maybe you missed it but we Ulster folk were not happy at all about Payne moving to centre, and I personally was sceptical of his ability to play in that position for Ireland. He proved me and the rest of his doubters wrong.

I completely disagree with you on Henshaws comments. You don't know what he would say with a different partner, and I doubt he would go to the lengths he has in praising Payne unless he meant it.

[Sin é]

I don't believe Payne is above criticism. Maybe you missed it but we Ulster folk were not happy at all about Payne moving to centre, and I personally was sceptical of his ability to play in that position for Ireland. He proved me and the rest of his doubters wrong.

I completely disagree with you on Henshaws comments. You don't know what he would say with a different partner, and I doubt he would go to the lengths he has in praising Payne unless he meant it.

Payne is the only one he has actually played with so far internationally. Payne is the only one he can speak of since he hasn't played alongside anyone else.

'

[eirebilly]

So if Payne was, lets say injured, and Cave was partnering Henshaw. If asked, would Henshaw say that he missed playing with Payne and could not wait for him to get back or would he say that he is loving playing with Cave and that they are building a nice understanding and partnership?

I simply think that these are standard answers that players give when being asked such questions, they are hardly going to say anything different. Maybe thats me being a miserable old distrusting git though

[Guest]

So if Payne was, lets say injured, and Cave was partnering Henshaw. If asked, would Henshaw say that he missed playing with Payne and could not wait for him to get back or would he say that he is loving playing with Cave and that they are building a nice understanding and partnership?

I simply think that these are standard answers that players give when being asked such questions, they are hardly going to say anything different. Maybe thats me being a miserable old distrusting git though

There are many 'what ifs'. I could come up with an endless stream of them. Stream being the operative word. Better to stand on the solid ground of what players are actually saying, like Henshaw.

We will see what happens come the RWC games, eirebilly. In any event, Earls isn't the only player eyeing a place at centre after the world cup. There's also McCloskey and Olding....

Well if you're a distrusting git then that would make both of us distrusting gits

[Guest]

I don't believe Payne is above criticism. Maybe you missed it but we Ulster folk were not happy at all about Payne moving to centre, and I personally was sceptical of his ability to play in that position for Ireland. He proved me and the rest of his doubters wrong.

I completely disagree with you on Henshaws comments. You don't know what he would say with a different partner, and I doubt he would go to the lengths he has in praising Payne unless he meant it.

Payne is the only one he has actually played with so far internationally. Payne is the only one he can speak of since he hasn't played alongside anyone else.

'

“I was just having a word with one of the lads during the week about how I was just amazed by the amount of time he has on the ball. When he has it on his hands, it seems like players are rushing around him, that kind of way.
“He is a balanced kind of player and when he has the ball he is looking to exploit the defence and in his defensive game as well he always makes the right read and he always has your back and he is really perfect to have outside you in that number 13 shirt.
“He has done really well for us. It just seems like he doesn’t panic when he is on the ball. He just plays what is in front of him and is just a really good player.”

Deal with it, Sin é

[Notch]

I don't believe Payne is above criticism. Maybe you missed it but we Ulster folk were not happy at all about Payne moving to centre, and I personally was sceptical of his ability to play in that position for Ireland. He proved me and the rest of his doubters wrong.

Yeah, I was also extremely critical of the idea of moving him to 13 but he made me eat my words in the end. I suspect we'll live to see him do the same for Ireland fans in general.

[Guest]

I think he will, Notch. eirebilly will be a mixture of delight and relief. Sin é will be

I think Schmidt is holding his cards close to his chest when it comes to showing what our centre pairing can do. We will find out for sure soon enough anyway.

[Sin é]

We will see what happens come the RWC games, eirebilly. In any event, Earls isn't the only player eyeing a place at centre after the world cup. There's also McCloskey and Olding....

We've been waiting for the next big thing from Ulster for a long time now ... I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the next big thing.

[Guest]

How can you complain when we have given you Payne. Just no pleasing some people....


P.s they don't need to be the next big thing. They just need to better than Earls. So either McCloskey or Olding it is then

[Rory_Gallagher]

We will see what happens come the RWC games, eirebilly. In any event, Earls isn't the only player eyeing a place at centre after the world cup. There's also McCloskey and Olding....

We've been waiting for the next big thing from Ulster for a long time now ... I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the next big thing.

You don't have to wait for long.. Marshall, Olding and McCloskey already have proven that they have the talent, but unfortunately they all have injury problems which is the only thing holding them back.

It is very similar to Earls actually, a player we are all waiting to be fully fit and fulfil his potential, but he has been blighted by injuries.

[Notch]

Suggestion from the 42 that Fitzgerald will be wearing the 13 jersey at the weekend, outside Henshaw.

http://www.the42.ie/luke-fitzgerald-13-ireland-wales-team-news-2294129-Aug2015/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

They have put up a Possible Ireland XV (v Wales):

15. Rob Kearney
14. Keith Earls
13. Luke Fitzgerald
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Dave Kearney
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Jack McGrath
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Nathan White
4. Iain Henderson
5. Paul O’Connell
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Jordi Murphy
8. Jamie Heaslip

I'm a little surprised that we haven't seen Henderson at 6 yet, thought getting O'Mahony game time obviously takes precedence. Good to see Earls on the wing, expect to see Trimble off the bench.

[Guest]

A strongish team if selected, and it will be interesting to see how White gets on. Yep, expect Trimble off the bench and possibly a start v England.
Against Wales strongest side we might struggle to get a win, but a real Test which is what we need.

[Notch]

Well this would make it 19 backs he's selected in 3 games, with the only players starting more than once starting in two different positions, so it'll be fascinating to see which 5 don't make it.

[Sin é]

A strongish team if selected, and it will be interesting to see how White gets on. Yep, expect Trimble off the bench and possibly a start v England.
Against Wales strongest side we might struggle to get a win, but a real Test which is what we need.

Bowe will need to start against England. He is well off the pace and since he is on the side of the plane, he is travelling anyway.

[Guest]

A strongish team if selected, and it will be interesting to see how White gets on. Yep, expect Trimble off the bench and possibly a start v England.
Against Wales strongest side we might struggle to get a win, but a real Test which is what we need.

Bowe will need to start against England. He is well off the pace and since he is on the side of the plane, he is travelling anyway.

I have to admit I completely forgot about Bowe, Sin é. Sure Trimble can wait until the Canada game to get a start.

[Guest]

Well this would make it 19 backs he's selected in 3 games, with the only players starting more than once starting in two different positions, so it'll be fascinating to see which 5 don't make it.

Schmidt leaving no stone unturned. I'm looking forward to the cut. For me, once that's done it will really start to feel like the world cup is happening. Something I haven't really felt in the warm ups. It will be fascinating. Might be one or two surprises

[Notch]

Think if Dave Kearney has a good game there's a decent chance Bowe won't make it at all.

[The Great Aukster]

Well losing out to Kearney this time at least wouldn't be as monumentally stupid as losing out to Carney in 07.

[Artful_Dodger]

Well losing out to Kearney this time at least wouldn't be as monumentally stupid as losing out to Carney in 07.

That decision by O'Sullivan is easily the worst world cup selection of all time.

[the-goon]

Well losing out to Kearney this time at least wouldn't be as monumentally stupid as losing out to Carney in 07.

That decision by O'Sullivan is easily the worst world cup selection of all time.

It wouldn't have made a difference tho, neither were in the chosen 15, so would have just held tackle bags.

[Submachine]

Theres talk of White starting at 3 with Furlong on the bench. I think if thats the case then we will bring 6 props to the world cup. Bent needs to show he can shore up a scrum at TH against a first choice international front row.
If Bent isn't in the squad for this game then I don't think he travels.

[Don Alfonso]

So Fitzgerald and Earls will both have had one start on the wing and one start in the centre, is that right?

An "either/or" shoot-out?

The 42.ie team:

Jack McGrath, Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Michael Bent, Nathan White (if Marty Moore is not fit to travel).
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss.
Paul O’Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Donnacha Ryan
Peter O’Mahony, Sean O’Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Jordi Murphy, Chris Henry.
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Isaac Boss.
Jonathan Sexton, Paddy Jackson.
Robbie Henshaw, Jared Payne, Ian Madigan, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls.
Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney, Simon Zebo.

[Notch]

So Fitzgerald and Earls will both have had one start on the wing and one start in the centre, is that right?

Yes, the only two backs to start more than one game each- obviously because they are being assessed in two positions. Think it'll be a shootout to see who covers wing and centre best from the bench.

[Notch]

Theres talk of White starting at 3 with Furlong on the bench. I think if thats the case then we will bring 6 props to the world cup. Bent needs to show he can shore up a scrum at TH against a first choice international front row.
If Bent isn't in the squad for this game then I don't think he travels.

Disagree with that, he played tight head off the bench in the first game, loose head in the second, and then its probably more important he play loose head again since we're looking at bringing Healy who is still a doubt.

[Notch]

Irish Times saying Bowe and Trimble to run out for Ulster- don't think both of them will make it into the final squad. My money is on Trimble to go, Bowe to be dropped but if that foot injury flares up again Bowe could get a reprieve.

[Guest]

That's what we should expect, Notch. Trimble has been the better of the two for some time now. I can't shake off the feeling that Bowe might sneak in ahead of Trimble though. Maybe they will both lose out!

Maybe I need a

[Notch]

Schmidt was quite complimentary about him, said he played well in his time against Wales. They need to see him play 40-60 minutes to prove he's fit not just 20 off the bench, hence him going back to Ulster.

He also said some of the players sent back to their provinces this weekend will make the final cut, and some of the guys in the squad for Wales... might not...

I would not be surprised if Bowe gets cut, but I would be very surprised if Trimble does. Based on what Kiss and Schmidt have said about him it seems like he needs to prove his fitness, not his form. Bowe needs to prove his form and his one chance to do that in green before the announcement passed him by somewhat.

[Notch]

Similarly, Michael Bent is starting at tight head for Leinster

[Submachine]

Theres talk of White starting at 3 with Furlong on the bench. I think if thats the case then we will bring 6 props to the world cup. Bent needs to show he can shore up a scrum at TH against a first choice international front row.
If Bent isn't in the squad for this game then I don't think he travels.

Disagree with that, he played tight head off the bench in the first game, loose head in the second, and then its probably more important he play loose head again since we're looking at bringing Healy who is still a doubt.

I think he will travel as the third choice LH if Healy is fit or not. However if Moore is ruled out and with White unproven at international level I don't see him as a fifth, cover both sides option. If Furlong has a good scrummaging performance I think he travels as a third specialist TH even though he is very inexperienced. In my view...

All pops fit:
Healy, McGrath, Bent, Ross, Moore

Healy ruled out
McGrath, Kilcoyne, Bent, Ross, Moore

Moore ruled out
Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Ross, White, Furlong. Bent looses out as Kilcoyne is higher up the pecking order of specialist LH's

Both Healy and Moore ruled out
McGrath, Kilcoyne, Bent, Ross, White, Furlong

[Marshes]

I think that McFadden (and Conan) is among the replacements says that he is probably out

[Guest]

Schmidt was quite complimentary about him, said he played well in his time against Wales. They need to see him play 40-60 minutes to prove he's fit not just 20 off the bench, hence him going back to Ulster.

He also said some of the players sent back to their provinces this weekend will make the final cut, and some of the guys in the squad for Wales... might not...

I would not be surprised if Bowe gets cut, but I would be very surprised if Trimble does. Based on what Kiss and Schmidt have said about him it seems like he needs to prove his fitness, not his form. Bowe needs to prove his form and his one chance to do that in green before the announcement passed him by somewhat.

I agree, Notch. It's just my habit of looking at the 'what ifs' sometimes leads to unfounded fears, even if short lived. Kiss also seems pleased with Trimbles progress, and I don't really see him losing out. In fact I think he's probably done enough to cement his inclusion after his 1st half performance v Wales. I will be delighted if Bowe can earn his inclusion, but I'm not so hopeful. Hopefully he can prove his worth tomorrow.

It all adds an edge in waiting for the 31 man squad to be named

[Golden]

Hadn't Fitz been talking about how he was losing all the extra weight he had put on to play centre?

[Notch]

Theres talk of White starting at 3 with Furlong on the bench. I think if thats the case then we will bring 6 props to the world cup. Bent needs to show he can shore up a scrum at TH against a first choice international front row.
If Bent isn't in the squad for this game then I don't think he travels.

Disagree with that, he played tight head off the bench in the first game, loose head in the second, and then its probably more important he play loose head again since we're looking at bringing Healy who is still a doubt.

I think he will travel as the third choice LH if Healy is fit or not. However if Moore is ruled out and with White unproven at international level I don't see him as a fifth, cover both sides option. If Furlong has a good scrummaging performance I think he travels as a third specialist TH even though he is very inexperienced. In my view...

All pops fit:
Healy, McGrath, Bent, Ross, Moore

Healy ruled out
McGrath, Kilcoyne, Bent, Ross, Moore

Moore ruled out
Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Ross, White, Furlong. Bent looses out as Kilcoyne is higher up the pecking order of specialist LH's

Both Healy and Moore ruled out
McGrath, Kilcoyne, Bent, Ross, White, Furlong

I think Bent is ahead of Furlong at tight head- he's probably getting more than 40 minutes at tight head for Leinster on Friday whereas he'd not be getting more than a cameo if on the bench.

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