London Welsh in the Pro12 ? The subject just will not go away.

First topic message reminder :

London Welsh chairman Bleddyn Phillips says the club would be open to quitting the English game to join the Pro12. I thought this was now put to bed, but now the head honcho at London Welsh is telling people he would like to see it happen, do you agree with what he has to say ? Especially about the travelling to London rather than further afield, an obvious dig at the Italians, he also says "There would be a degree of support behind the possibility." I don't think there would be much of a chance of LW joining the Pro12, I just think he is trying to cause a stir because of this ring fenced Aviva idea, I would rather see a North Wales region in the Pro12 before London Welsh. Here take a read:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/33347545

Awful lot of games. More likely to be cut down to the perceived big teams if it ever happened. I'd personally hate to see that happen.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Awful lot of games.

Eh?

OK, so he does not want two divisions. If 24 teams in one league you could only play each other once.

LondonTiger wrote:OK, so he does not want two divisions. If 24 teams in one league you could only play each other once.

They are either conferences. Or 2 divisions.

Mind why 24 teams? We only have 22 in the two current leagues.

Yeah you keep saying 2 conferences but you keep ignoring the more realistic thing would be to make 1 league around the top clubs.

LondonTiger wrote:Mind why 24 teams? We only have 22 in the two current leagues.

A ringfenced English 14, plus the Pro12 minus the Italians.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah you keep saying 2 conferences but you keep ignoring the more realistic thing would be to make 1 league around the top clubs.

It's not more realistic. It's totally unrealistic. Because the likes of Ulster would be left wthout professional rugby.

Anyway, at least we're thinking about it. Well done lads. 1st step is coming out of denial!!

how realistic i sit to think the Irish/Scottish/Welsh teams and Unions would accept being minority partners in such a venture?

How would such a competition make the clubs any better off? If anything there would be less money available as the TV and commercial rights for this would be appreciably lower than the current ones covering AP/Pro12/EPCR.

Yeah all it would take is the failure of Europe and BT craashing and burning and taking the Prem tv money with it and then having another broadcaster come in with a much bigger offer.

LondonTiger wrote:how realistic i sit to think the Irish/Scottish/Welsh teams and Unions would accept being minority partners in such a venture?

Why are they minority partners?

How would such a competition make the clubs any better off? If anything there would be less money available as the TV and commercial rights for this would be appreciably lower than the current ones covering AP/Pro12/EPCR.

For the hundredth time, all teams would be MILES better off, because BT Sport have mountains of money they are willing to put into rugby.

I like this quote:

The increased domestic television deals secured in France and England was already on the cards so their respective budgets were always set to increase. The only way the Irish, Welsh and Scottish clubs can close the gap on that front is to replace the Aviva Premiership and Guinness Pro12 with a British and Irish league. The IRFU need to start pushing that agenda immediately to have any hope of remaining competitive in club Europe

Really though it would take the collapse of the BT deal for the English clubs to be pushed towards this now. Is there anyone else to challenge Sky currently? I see how it makes sense for the Pro 12 teams to be wanting a joint league and increase their revenue; it always comes back to the fact it would have to be weighted heavily in the favour of the English clubs as they hold the cards now.

That said the Pro 12 is going from strength to strength and will continue to improve. Your blindness to this does you no favours Chunky.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:how realistic i sit to think the Irish/Scottish/Welsh teams and Unions would accept being minority partners in such a venture?

Why are they minority partners?

why would they not be? If you are asking for 14 English Teams and 10 from the rest, why should PRL not be the majority partner?

How would such a competition make the clubs any better off? If anything there would be less money available as the TV and commercial rights for this would be appreciably lower than the current ones covering AP/Pro12/EPCR.

For the hundredth time, all teams would be MILES better off, because BT Sport have mountains of money they are willing to put into rugby.

You keep saying that, but never explain how the value of this competition would increase. Why would BT have to pay more than they currently do for two competitions?

LondonTiger wrote:

why would they not be? If you are asking for 14 English Teams and 10 from the rest, why should PRL not be the majority partner?

Why does the number of teams in a competitiond enote "majority partner"? I don't see it as a parameter at all.

You keep saying that, but never explain how the value of this competition would increase. Why would BT have to pay more than they currently do for two competitions?

Why would they have to pay more? To make the whole thing work. That's the incentive. To make it the biggest, best domestic rugby thing on the planet. The value of this and the potential is simply huge. And it's the only way forward (certainly for the Celtic nations, the English could survive a few extra years before going pop).

I would have grave reservations if the top English dogs were dead against it and wanted to protect an all English league at all costs. But that doesn't seem to be the case, fortunately.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Your best hope is that the Champions Cup proves a failure within the next couple of seasons, Chunky. And even if changing circumstances bring about a B&I league, you then have to hope that all Regions are included, which I think would be extremely unlikely.

What a bizarre thing to say.

Hardly. You envisage a conference type league with 24 teams. No broadcaster is going to fork out a fortune just to keep everyone happy in a league that would require much more cost and effort to broadcast (12 games).
If a B&I were to happen, it would be 12/14 teams. Half of the teams would miss out.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

why would they not be? If you are asking for 14 English Teams and 10 from the rest, why should PRL not be the majority partner?

Why does the number of teams in a competitiond enote "majority partner"? I don't see it as a parameter at all.

You keep saying that, but never explain how the value of this competition would increase. Why would BT have to pay more than they currently do for two competitions?

Why would they have to pay more? To make the whole thing work. That's the incentive. To make it the biggest, best domestic rugby thing on the planet. The value of this and the potential is simply huge. And it's the only way forward (certainly for the Celtic nations, the English could survive a few extra years before going pop).

I would have grave reservations if the top English dogs were dead against it and wanted to protect an all English league at all costs. But that doesn't seem to be the case, fortunately.

So if the English top clubs apparently don't want to protect the rest of the English why do you believe they will be looking out for everyone in this case? Wouldn't the smart play be to split off the top teams include some SAs and get the money that way? Why share with more folk?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah you keep saying 2 conferences but you keep ignoring the more realistic thing would be to make 1 league around the top clubs.

It's not more realistic. It's totally unrealistic. Because the likes of Ulster would be left wthout professional rugby.

The likes of Ulster who are selling out games, and consistently finishing top four in PRO12? Nice try at a wind up, Chunky. If a B&I league were to happen right now I would think Glasgow, Munster, Ospreys, Ulster and Leinster with Scarlets scraping through in 6th.

With Connacht and Edinburgh gaining in strength, who knows who will finish in that top 6 over the next few seasons?

Uh oh I feel a Joey Barton moment coming on

'In the land of the blind the one eyed man is still a dangerous nutter'

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

why would they not be? If you are asking for 14 English Teams and 10 from the rest, why should PRL not be the majority partner?

Why does the number of teams in a competitiond enote "majority partner"? I don't see it as a parameter at all.

So you want to merge with PRL to create a B&I Leaugue. You wish to do this because that is the way to increase money for the Pro12 teams. In your scenario the Pro12 teams need the English far more than the other way round, but you want the english who will be providing the bulk of the teams and bringing the bulk of the TV and commercial cash to be your little lap dog. What makes you think PRL woudl go "OK we will make you rich and have no control because we are nice people who care about others"


As to your argument about why BT would pay more than it does currently for effectively less. Shows a lack of understanding on TV rights bidding. Any TV company pays what it views as the minimum it needs to secure the rights. BT broke the bank and Sky when securing AP rights. No way will Sky offer enough to drive BT to bid the amounts you suggest. If rugby had a global audience then things may be different. It does not. It is a minority sport even in pretty much all countries that play it to a decent level.


Now I fully expect the landscape to change over the next decade - but far more likely to be a Euro/SA league.

lostinwales wrote:Uh oh I feel a Joey Barton moment coming on

'In the land of the blind the one eyed man is still a dangerous nutter'

In this context I suspect the following quote, predating Barton, has more relevance

'When seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.'

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So if the English top clubs apparently don't want to protect the rest of the English why do you believe they will be looking out for everyone in this case? Wouldn't the smart play be to split off the top teams include some SAs and get the money that way? Why share with more folk?

They want to ringfence to 14. PRL are looking out for PRL.

There is no "share the money with less folk". The competition will be for the pro teams in Britain and Ireland. Not half the pro teams in Britain and Ireland.

LondonTiger wrote:

So you want to merge with PRL to create a B&I Leaugue. You wish to do this because that is the way to increase money for the Pro12 teams. In your scenario the Pro12 teams need the English far more than the other way round, but you want the english who will be providing the bulk of the teams and bringing the bulk of the TV and commercial cash to be your little lap dog. What makes you think PRL woudl go "OK we will make you rich and have no control because we are nice people who care about others"

money.

As to your argument about why BT would pay more than it does currently for effectively less. Shows a lack of understanding on TV rights bidding. Any TV company pays what it views as the minimum it needs to secure the rights. BT broke the bank and Sky when securing AP rights. No way will Sky offer enough to drive BT to bid the amounts you suggest. If rugby had a global audience then things may be different. It does not. It is a minority sport even in pretty much all countries that play it to a decent level.

Now I fully expect the landscape to change over the next decade - but far more likely to be a Euro/SA league.

ok.

and we get back to money, which you believe is there just waiting to be picked and the rest of us feel is not.

Even if it was there you can be pretty damned sure PRL would be making sure they got what they consider to be their fair share of the dosh and the control. There is no way on earth they would join a new league where they provide the bulk of the cash and the bulk of the teams and not demand the control.

LondonTiger wrote:and we get back to money, which you believe is there just waiting to be picked and the rest of us feel is not.

That's fair enough. At the end of the day all we can do is put forward our opinions. I believe BT Sport would be itching to seal a mammoth tv deal that guarantees this new groundbreaking competition. You do not. Can't really expand much more on that.

Even if it was there you can be pretty damned sure PRL would be making sure they got what they consider to be their fair share of the dosh and the control. There is no way on earth they would join a new league where they provide the bulk of the cash and the bulk of the teams and not demand the control.

Well it's got to work for all parties yes. I believe it can.

It's almost unbelievable that anybody can think the PRL will simply welcome the Celtic Unions as equal partners in a new league after they've fought tooth and nail with those same unions to have more control over the European competitions, and a larger share of the profits.

I oppose a British and Irish League right now because the compromises demanded of us to make it work are not worth it. It won't be milk and honey, it will be ceding majority control of our basic competition to a larger partner and having pressure applied to change the basic structure of how rugby works in our country to better serve the needs of this new competition.

The IRFU you characterise as blazertastic, but we retain our independence to organise our game as we see for and we are successful on and off the pitch. That shows Scotland and Wales as similarly sized nations can also be successful and it raises the question, why would we want to change the status quo? Just for a payout which probably isn't as big as you'd imagine?

Notch wrote:It's almost unbelievable that anybody can think the PRL will simply welcome the Celtic Unions as equal partners in a new league after they've fought tooth and nail with those same unions to have more control over the European competitions, and a larger share of the profits.

I oppose a British and Irish League right now because the compromises demanded of us to make it work are not worth it. It won't be milk and honey, it will be ceding majority control of our basic competition to a larger partner and having pressure applied to change the basic structure of how rugby works in our country to better serve the needs of this new competition.

The IRFU you characterise as blazertastic, but we retain our independence to organise our game as we see for and we are successful on and off the pitch. That shows Scotland and Wales as similarly sized nations can also be successful and it raises the question, why would we want to change the status quo? Just for a payout which probably isn't as big as you'd imagine?

And I find it unbelievable that you fail to see the bleak future ahead if a British and Irish league does not materialise.

Notch wrote:It's almost unbelievable that anybody can think the PRL will simply welcome the Celtic Unions as equal partners in a new league after they've fought tooth and nail with those same unions to have more control over the European competitions, and a larger share of the profits.

I agree. any such league would probably be born from the PRL inviting others to join, and they would be miserly with what they handed out.

Notch wrote:
The IRFU you characterise as blazertastic, but we retain our independence to organise our game as we see for and we are successful on and off the pitch. That shows Scotland and Wales as similarly sized nations can also be successful and it raises the question, why would we want to change the status quo? Just for a payout which probably isn't as big as you'd imagine?

It is argued by some that you guys behave towards the other countries as PRL are accused of in euro talks, and that Irish strength has been gained at the expense of their Celtic colleagues (not agreeing with this as such, feel Wales and Scotland have created their own mess by and large, but there is an increasing dissatisfaction with Welsh media about the "Irish run" Pro12).


Should there be a push from PRL to create a B&i league (or in cahoots with France and/or SA for a broader league) you can be sure that they will approach the Welsh first, followed by the Scots to get them to jump ship before leaving Ireland isolated and more acquiescent.

LondonTiger wrote:


Should there be a push from PRL to create a B&i league (or in cahoots with France and/or SA for a broader league) you can be sure that they will approach the Welsh first, followed by the Scots to get them to jump ship before leaving Ireland isolated and more acquiescent.

Yup.

I do not understand why the future is bleak without a B&I. My own view is that the future looks worse with a B&I.

Now this is of course in part because we have a strong domestic league. This means I get my staple diet from the AP. My cake from the Champions Cup and the icing on the cake from internationals.

I really like the local rivalries that the domestic league gives - and it draws crowds. This is the same in Pro12 - the InterProvice/Region/City games are so much more hyped and well attended. You lose that with a B&I league - as well as many of the travelling fans.

Yeah, of course. We need the Welsh and the Scottish. But I would be inclined to wait until the talks are about a European super-league, not this ersatz British and Irish version. I doubt the PRL are interested in trying to make a British and Irish league come about though. The practicalities of making it work mean at least some of their members will either be dropped from the top tier league or dropped altogether.

But this noise emanating from Wales needs to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. The fact we can sell out games and sell lots of merchandise does not prevent Welsh regions from doing that. The fact we have a productive settlement between the interests of the national team and the provincial teams and the two are not at odds with each other does not prevent anyone else from doing that. We are competing for different markets and the failure to create demand in the Welsh market is not really anything to do with us.

The WRU blew (no surprise there) there chance of a B&I league in the mid-late 90s and way before the Regions were thrown together.

There was in principle a deal to done for a 2 league set up with promotion/relegation. If memory serves me well the RFU offered (I think) 6 teams a place with a 3/3 split between the leagues.

The WRU wanted more and held their ground until the RFU got fed up and withdrew the deal. I remember an interview with Neil Jenkins at the time who was then still with Ponty saying that the WRU should have accepted the deal as least it was a foot in the door etc.

He also said that Ponty were one of the teams that would have been in the proposed 2nd League but they themselves were happy with that as at the time they were in their pomp and felt confident enough in the own ability to gain promotion fairly rapidly to the top league.

LondonTiger wrote:

I really like the local rivalries that the domestic league gives - and it draws crowds. This is the same in Pro12 - the InterProvice/Region/City games are so much more hyped and well attended. You lose that with a B&I league - as well as many of the travelling fans.

You do not lose the local rivalries in a conference system.

Notch wrote:

But this noise emanating from Wales needs to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

It's emanating from Ireland too.

LondonTiger wrote:

Notch wrote:It's almost unbelievable that anybody can think the PRL will simply welcome the Celtic Unions as equal partners in a new league after they've fought tooth and nail with those same unions to have more control over the European competitions, and a larger share of the profits.

I agree. any such league would probably be born from the PRL inviting others to join, and they would be miserly with what they handed out.

Notch wrote:
The IRFU you characterise as blazertastic, but we retain our independence to organise our game as we see for and we are successful on and off the pitch. That shows Scotland and Wales as similarly sized nations can also be successful and it raises the question, why would we want to change the status quo? Just for a payout which probably isn't as big as you'd imagine?

It is argued by some that you guys behave towards the other countries as PRL are accused of in euro talks, and that Irish strength has been gained at the expense of their Celtic colleagues (not agreeing with this as such, feel Wales and Scotland have created their own mess by and large, but there is an increasing dissatisfaction with Welsh media about the "Irish run" Pro12).


Should there be a push from PRL to create a B&i league (or in cahoots with France and/or SA for a broader league) you can be sure that they will approach the Welsh first, followed by the Scots to get them to jump ship before leaving Ireland isolated and more acquiescent.

Which Welsh media have voiced an increasing dissatisfaction with how PRO12 is run?


No you can't be sure. Frankly I think the notion is absurd, as things stand, and the reason I think it's absurd is because of what the Provinces bring to the table. If anything it will be the IRFU that is first approached.

Notch wrote:Yeah, of course. We need the Welsh and the Scottish. But I would be inclined to wait until the talks are about a European super-league, not this ersatz British and Irish version. I doubt the PRL are interested in trying to make a British and Irish league come about though.

I agree. any driver for a new/different pan country competition would be driven by the likes of Craig, Wray, Boudjellal and Lorenzetti. If Sa left Super Rugby I could see them ignoring the Pro12 counties completely and trying to set-up a different SR type competition. Not impossible to see them setting up a competition with equal numbers of teams from the 3 countries (5 if SXV, 6 if 18 sides etc) featuring Bath, Sarries, Wasps and Quins from England; Racing, Stade, Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont from France etc

Disagree Munchkin. The Irish would be hardest to persuade, so would be the last to be approached. the low hanging fruit would be picked off first so as to leave the Irish wioth less wiggle room.

However I really cannot see a B&I league happening as the only winners from it woudl be the Welsh.

LondonTiger wrote:Disagree Munchkin. The Irish would be hardest to persuade, so would be the last to be approached. the low hanging fruit would be picked off first so as to leave the Irish wioth less wiggle room.

However I really cannot see a B&I league happening as the only winners from it woudl be the Welsh.

I understand the thinking, but I don't believe anyone would go the long way around in any negotiations. It would make more sense to sound out the IRFU's thinking on a possible new League first, and then if IRFU resist such a move that's when you apply the pressure you describe. It's fantasy stuff, but interesting nonetheless.

Which Welsh media have voiced an increasing dissatisfaction with how PRO12 is run?

The Provinces would definitely be the bigger draw but as has been said that may make them hold out for a better deal so I can see what LT is saying by getting the 'lesser' Unions on board first then the Irish would want it or run risk of being out in the cold.

I have seen stuff on ScrumV, Walesonline and the Western Fail

bedfordwelsh wrote:The Provinces would definitely be the bigger draw but as has been said that may make them hold out for a better deal so I can see what LT is saying by getting the 'lesser' Unions on board first then the Irish would want it or run risk of being out in the cold.

It is after all how they handled the creation of EPCR.

bedfordwelsh wrote:The Provinces would definitely be the bigger draw but as has been said that may make them hold out for a better deal so I can see what LT is saying by getting the 'lesser' Unions on board first then the Irish would want it or run risk of being out in the cold.

In order for the IRFU to hold out for a better deal they would first need to be approached. It wouldn't be good business to go behind their back in an attempt at weakening their bargaining position. Not before first approaching them.

LondonTiger wrote:I have seen stuff on ScrumV, Walesonline and the Western Fail

LT,

I wouldn't take any of those as a reliable source especially WOL or the Fail, as for ScrumV if it isn't Blues orientated they not like anything

LondonTiger wrote:I have seen stuff on ScrumV, Walesonline and the Western Fail

Have you any links, LT. It's just that I do keep an eye on media reports and haven't been made aware of any growing Welsh media dissatisfaction with how PRO12 is being run.

They would be talking out of their @rse anyway. The PRO12 isn't ran by the Irish. That's a false perception peddled by those ignorant of the facts.

I can't beleive that I'm stil being dragged into a thread about something that's never going to happen but here we go again.
Chunky - you keep saying that BT will pay for this shiny new league because "they can" - with no actual evidence to show why, getting the PRL on board was clever to enable them to steal one of Sky's flagship sporting events, but realistically the rest of BT sports schedule apart from the rugby and the football is just filler - MMA, womens tennis, awful chat shows - The Footballs On/Baker and Kelly? Is that all you got ?
The bottom line is who benefits from a GB & I league and there is no benefit (indeed there is a lot of risk) for the English clubs who will make up half of it - you've mentioned ringfencing the league so you think that the rest of the English clubs in the pyramid (Leeds, Bristol, Cornwall, Rotherham etc.) will just let that happen, do you think the RFU will let it happen ? Do you think Northampton, Saracens, Bath and co will be happy to have competition from the Irish on a weekly basis - given Welsh performaces in Europe over the last few years why would any Welsh side get to eat at the top table - do you think Newcastle will relish a trip to Connaught in Janaury ?
It's a lovely fantasy but that's all it is.

The issue is it would then reduce the european competitions to something not that special. Also why would any current top flight club want to go down to secondary status?

Irish Londoner wrote:I  can't beleive that I'm stil being dragged into a thread about something that's never going to happen but here we go again.
Chunky - you keep saying that BT will pay for this shiny new league because "they can" - with no actual evidence to show why, getting the PRL on board was clever to enable them to steal one of Sky's flagship sporting events, but realistically the rest of BT sports schedule apart from the rugby and the football is just filler - MMA, womens tennis, awful chat shows - The Footballs On/Baker and Kelly? Is that all you got ?

I didn't think BT sport would b paying the prices it is for things like the Champions League (£900m is it?) but they are.

The bottom line is who benefits from a GB & I league and there is no benefit (indeed there is a lot of risk) for the English clubs who will make up half of it

So despite me saying they would be milliosn better off, you still claim there would not be a single benefit.

you've mentioned ringfencing the league so you think that the rest of the English clubs in the pyramid (Leeds, Bristol, Cornwall, Rotherham etc.) will just let that happen, do you think the RFU will let it happen ?

Yes, because it would be a positive thing for English rugby.

Do you think Northampton, Saracens, Bath and co will be happy to have competition from the Irish on a weekly basis

Yes, because it would be a positive thing for English rugby.

given Welsh performaces in Europe over the last few years why would any Welsh side get to eat at the top table

Same as Sale, Glocuester, London Irish, Newcastle, Harlequins then.

do you think Newcastle will relish a trip to Connaught in Janaury ?]

Someone's got to play Connacht in January. Or should that someone be the crappy Welsh and Scottish clubs only?

It's a lovely fantasy but that's all it is.

It's alot more than a fantasy.

123456789 wrote:The issue is it would then reduce the european competitions to something not that special. Also why would any current top flight club want to go down to secondary status?

What secondary status?

This has gone from London Welsh to the Pro 12 to fantasy land.