London Welsh in the Pro12 ? The subject just will not go away.

First topic message reminder :

London Welsh chairman Bleddyn Phillips says the club would be open to quitting the English game to join the Pro12. I thought this was now put to bed, but now the head honcho at London Welsh is telling people he would like to see it happen, do you agree with what he has to say ? Especially about the travelling to London rather than further afield, an obvious dig at the Italians, he also says "There would be a degree of support behind the possibility." I don't think there would be much of a chance of LW joining the Pro12, I just think he is trying to cause a stir because of this ring fenced Aviva idea, I would rather see a North Wales region in the Pro12 before London Welsh. Here take a read:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/33347545

LondonTiger wrote:In what way is it a fact?

Anyone seen a signed document?

Confirmed by a member of PRL.

So quite a long way from being reality then Chunky.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So quite a long way from being reality then Chunky.

No, not at all. It was signed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So quite a long way from being reality then Chunky.

No, not at all. It was signed.

You've just said that the RFU hadn't signed it. Which is it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So quite a long way from being reality then Chunky.

No, not at all. It was signed.

You've just said that the RFU hadn't signed it. Which is it?

Why are you bringing the RFU into it?

The debate in question is this:

The Great Aukster wrote: the PRL don't want the Welsh regions in the AP.

Which I have just proved inaccurate.

You said 'It was all signed and ready to go if RCC didn't happen. That's a fact. Doesn't mean it can't happen again. Very unlikely in the short term.' Well in fact it wasn't as it would have needed the RFU agreement. Also in relation to wanting the Welsh regions in the same interview Craig said it wasn't the preferred option to include the Welsh.

"We had a signed agreement with the Welsh regions and we would have gone through with an Anglo-Welsh league"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Factoid.

If there was no Europe comp could see welsh regions being invited to replace the home games lost.

Chunky Norwich wrote:"We had a signed agreement with the Welsh regions and we would have gone through with an Anglo-Welsh league"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Factoid.

But you said it was ready to go which isn't a 'factoid'.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:"We had a signed agreement with the Welsh regions and we would have gone through with an Anglo-Welsh league"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Factoid.

But you said it was ready to go which isn't a 'factoid'.

Ready to go as in "signed" up to it - and therefore disproving the claim that PRL didn't want the Welsh teams in the Aviva Premiership.

Some verbal diarrhoea from the most verbose of chairmen is a long way an agreement signed by all.

LondonTiger wrote:Some verbal diarrhoea from the most verbose of chairmen is a long way an agreement signed by all.

Can't win then.

Completely true LT. Also the point is that the PRL didn't want the Welsh, it was an option to make up potential money lost without Europe, as was inviting SA teams. Europe was the want, the SAs and Welsh were the fall backs. Why are you so obsessed with a British league?

No 7&1/2 wrote: Why are you so obsessed with a British league?

It's the only way domestic pro rugby will flourish in Britain and Ireland. You'll see.

But is it the only way that English rugby will flourish? They've agreed their TV rights, doing very well. No need to rock the boat. The Pro 12 are improving year on year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But is it the only way that English rugby will flourish? They've agreed their TV rights, doing very well. No need to rock the boat. The Pro 12 are improving year on year.

It's the only way the English will bridge the gap with the French in Europe. If you're not bothered about that, then fair enough, I can see why you wouldn't want change.

The Pro 12 is an insignificant piece of plankton to the Aviva Premiership's baracuda and the Top14's blue whale.

Why would joining a new league and losing clubs who would be competing at the top thus reducing the amount of young players exposed to top level competition, losing money to develop players from TV rights help the English clubs bridge a gap with the French? They would still presumably be playing to their wage structure so it wouldn't affect anything in a positive way.

Three great leagues currently and you want to mess up 2.

No 7&1/2 wrote: losing clubs who would be competing at the top

wouldn't happen

thus reducing the amount of young players exposed to top level competition

wouldn't happen

losing money to develop players from TV rights

wouldn't happen

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was a power play and would never have happened. Who would have been forced out? You really think the RFU would have said yes this is great?

It's a fact. Of course it was a power play. But a very real threat. It was signed.

It wasn't a fact. It would have never happened, Chuncky. PRL didn't want it. RRW didn't want. RFU would never have allowed it. WRU would never have allowed it.

Munchkin wrote:

It wasn't a fact. It would have never happened, Chuncky. PRL didn't want it. RRW didn't want. RFU would never have allowed it. WRU would never have allowed it.

They didn't have to sign anything. They did.

I don't know what was or wasn't signed. The Regions wouldn't move to Aviva. None of PRL, RRW, RFU or WRU wanted it. It simply wouldn't have happened.
PRL used RRW in the Euro battle. RRW very likely understood that they were being used, but thought siding with PRL added strength to their own negotiations with WRU. It didn't. RRW never wanted to leave PRO12. It was a rather poor bluff, and the reason it was so poor was because legally they couldn't. The implication was that PRL/LNR/RRW break away and start their own league. Not that RRW join with Aviva.

Munchkin wrote: It simply wouldn't have happened.

I've got your opinion. On an internet rugby fan forum. And I've got one of the CEO of the PRL clubs quotes, contradicting that in the public domain.

It's a tough choice.

I remember Roger Lewis saying that if the regions went with the English they would lose everything and would have to go it alone. They would get no funding from the WRU, no insurance, no use of referees ect. Roger then said that the WRU would have put 4 different teams in the Pro12.

LordDowlais wrote:I remember Roger Lewis saying that if the regions went with the English they would lose everything and would have to go it alone. They would get no funding from the WRU, no insurance, no use of referees ect. Roger then said that the WRU would have put 4 different teams in the Pro12.

Roger also said that he'd like to run the 4 regions. The regions offered him the choice.....and he shat out. They called his bluff big time.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It simply wouldn't have happened.

I've got your opinion. On an internet rugby fan forum. And I've got one of the CEO of the PRL clubs quotes, contradicting that in the public domain.

It's a tough choice.

It isn't just my opinion, Chunky. It really doesn't matter who spouted what. What mattered is what was possible, and RRW moving to Aviva wasn't possible. If it was possible it would never have happened anyway. None of the sides involved really wanted it. Not a chance that any of the Unions would have sanctioned it. That's the reality, Chunky.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It simply wouldn't have happened.

I've got your opinion. On an internet rugby fan forum. And I've got one of the CEO of the PRL clubs quotes, contradicting that in the public domain.

It's a tough choice.

It isn't just my opinion, Chunky. It really doesn't matter who spouted what. What mattered is what was possible, and RRW moving to Aviva wasn't possible. If it was possible it would never have happened anyway. None of the sides involved really wanted it. Not a chance that any of the Unions would have sanctioned it. That's the reality, Chunky.

Of course it was possible.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I remember Roger Lewis saying that if the regions went with the English they would lose everything and would have to go it alone. They would get no funding from the WRU, no insurance, no use of referees ect. Roger then said that the WRU would have put 4 different teams in the Pro12.

Roger also said that he'd like to run the 4 regions. The regions offered him the choice.....and he shat out. They called his bluff big time.

Oh, and he also said as well, that any Welsh players playing for team that joined English league, would not be picked for team Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I remember Roger Lewis saying that if the regions went with the English they would lose everything and would have to go it alone. They would get no funding from the WRU, no insurance, no use of referees ect. Roger then said that the WRU would have put 4 different teams in the Pro12.

Roger also said that he'd like to run the 4 regions. The regions offered him the choice.....and he shat out. They called his bluff big time.

Oh, and he also said as well, that any Welsh players playing for team that joined English league, would not be picked for team Wales.

Said alot of things that guy. 90% was utter tripe.

So what others say are utter tripe, but what the likes of Bruce Craig say are not then. Ok fair enough.

LordDowlais wrote:So what others say are utter tripe, but what the likes of Bruce Craig say are not then. Ok fair enough.

What Roger said about the future of the Welsh regions was proven to be untrue. He lied. Craig has no reason to lie about the Welsh regions.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I remember Roger Lewis saying that if the regions went with the English they would lose everything and would have to go it alone. They would get no funding from the WRU, no insurance, no use of referees ect. Roger then said that the WRU would have put 4 different teams in the Pro12.

Roger also said that he'd like to run the 4 regions. The regions offered him the choice.....and he shat out. They called his bluff big time.

Oh, and he also said as well, that any Welsh players playing for team that joined English league, would not be picked for team Wales.

I'm not sure of the context in which he was speaking (are you sure it wasn't that if the Regions eloped with PRL and LNR teams to form their own league under a new code?), but it doesn't matter. For the Regions to have moved to the Aviva they would have needed the sanction of both WRU and RFU. It would never have happened.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: losing clubs who would be competing at the top

wouldn't happen

thus reducing the amount of young players exposed to top level competition

wouldn't happen

losing money to develop players from TV rights

wouldn't happen

You've got your head in the sand.

Look Chunks, I am not saying things would not have been different, God only knows what would have happened if the European argument was not settled. But the way you smooch up to the English league on here is cringe worthy. Look, I have issues with our league, and I get a bit fed up of the Irishness of our league, but I would never see us walk away from it. If you think the English league is so good, go and support an English team.

Yeah that's me. Head in the sand.

2012–13 France Toulon
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2014–15 France Toulon

LordDowlais wrote:Look Chunks, I am not saying things would not have been different, God only knows what would have happened if the European argument was not settled. But the way you smooch up to the English league on here is cringe worthy. Look, I have issues with our league, and I get a bit fed up of the Irishness of our league, but I would never see us walk away from it. If you think the English league is so good, go and support an English team.

All I have done is correct the incorrect statement:

The Great Aukster wrote:
the PRL don't want the Welsh regions in the AP

If you want to have a go at me for doing that, then go nuts.

LordDowlais wrote: If you think the English league is so good, go and support an English team.

What a bizarre statement.

Chunky Norwich wrote:All I have done is correct the incorrect statement

Yes, you have. But you are constantly going on about us joining the English, it is cringe worthy, it's almost like a worker sucking up to his boss in front of every one, you are like Mr Smithers to Mr Burns. I would hate to see us walk away from the Pro12. For me, it will be bigger than the S14 before long, if we can iron out the issues within it.

I understand you want some of the English money they've negotiated but you're not demonstrating how this would be beneficial for English clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:All I have done is correct the incorrect statement

Yes, you have. But you are constantly going on about us joining the English, it is cringe worthy, it's almost like a worker sucking up to his boss in front of every one, you are like Mr Smithers to Mr Burns. I would hate to see us walk away from the Pro12. For me, it will be bigger than the S14 before long, if we can iron out the issues within it.

See, to me ^ that sort of undue hubris is far more cringeworthy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I understand you want some of the English money they've negotiated but you're not demonstrating how this would be beneficial for English clubs.

A British League? they'd have far more money to spend on academies, facilities and players, salary caps could increase, better squads to challenge in Europe.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I understand you want some of the English money they've negotiated but you're not demonstrating how this would be beneficial for English clubs.

A British League? they'd have far more money to spend on academies, facilities and players, salary caps could increase, better squads to challenge in Europe.

No they wouldn't. In reality tv money and/or spectators would have to go through the roof to equal what the English are already getting. So the English would see less money.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No they wouldn't. In reality tv money and/or spectators would have to go through the roof to equal what the English are already getting. So the English would see less money.

Yes. tv money will go through the roof.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No they wouldn't. In reality tv money and/or spectators would have to go through the roof to equal what the English are already getting. So the English would see less money.

Yes. tv money will go through the roof.

Why? BT have already spent a shed load to secure rights for the prem. They're at the top end now. How would they be able to afford the vast hike needed for the English to even get the same amount they do now? Would never happen.

Sorry Chunky the tv money would need to nearly double (10 more teams to present 12) with only the addition of about 1/4 population increase. Can't see it myself

Add in the fact it would probably then kill off interest in Europe so tv money there would fall.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No they wouldn't. In reality tv money and/or spectators would have to go through the roof to equal what the English are already getting. So the English would see less money.

Yes. tv money will go through the roof.

Why? BT have already spent a shed load to secure rights for the prem. They're at the top end now. How would they be able to afford the vast hike needed for the English to even get the same amount they do now? Would never happen.

That's exactly the reason. They've just spent the best part of a billion pounds on some football matches. A £100m B&I league package would be a drop in the ocean for them.

It's coming lads.

But they won't pay that as there isn't the competition for rugby or the demand to watch it. You may as well say the English alone will get that next time, so again it doesn't benefit the English clubs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But they won't pay that as there isn't the competition for rugby or the demand to watch it. You may as well say the English alone will get that next time, so again it doesn't benefit the English clubs.

Ah bugger. I must be wrong then.

Funny thing is I actually agree with Chunky that a properly structured and funded B & I League would be good but we've gone too far down the road for it to happen now.
Maybe if BT want it to happen it might but it would involve a huge change in the way the game was run to make it happen, even if BT were willing to throw loads of money at it.
The common view is that BT Sport overpaid for the Aviva rights in the first instance and have again with the Champions League - their business model is about taking customers from Sky and Virgin - and they've already started to wind in on the "get BT broadband get free BT sport" deals.
Finally Chunky does playing the English solve the seemingly intractable problems with Welsh rugby at home, as per the "Regional A Teams thread", with diminishing spectator numbers, "disenfranchised" (I love that word) Valleys fans and all national league stuff?
Are Welsh fans going to suddenly buy into the Regions/Superclubs just because you're playing London Irish or Newcastle Falcons rather than Glasgow or Munster? More to the point are English fans going to be more interested in attending games at the Mad Stad or Kingston Park to see Scarlets rather than Saracens ?

Irish Londoner wrote:
Finally Chunky does playing the English solve the seemingly intractable problems with Welsh rugby at home, as per the "Regional A Teams thread", with diminishing spectator numbers, "disenfranchised" (I love that word) Valleys fans and all national league stuff?
Are Welsh fans going to suddenly buy into the Regions/Superclubs just because you're playing London Irish or Newcastle Falcons rather than Glasgow or Munster? More to the point are English fans going to be more interested in attending games at the Mad Stad or Kingston Park to see Scarlets rather than Saracens ?

It would certainly help in my neck of the woods. But won't solve all the problems.

It will also be key to select the right model - i.e. - conferences or 2 tier "leagues". Conferences would be more sensible in many ways, as per my thread I started last year:

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league