Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches

Previous RWC related nonsense:
https://www.606v2.com/t58234p1000-scotland-world-cup-look-ahead-and-squad

Game 1:

  
IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Game 2:


ITALY v SCOTLAND
22 August 2015
KO: 15:00 local
Stadio Olimpico di Torino, Turin

Game 3:

  
SCOTLAND v ITALY
29 August 2015
KO: 15:15 local
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh

Game 4:

 
FRANCE v SCOTLAND
05 September 2015
KO: 21:00 local
Stade de France, Saint-Denis

I'm going to that first game in Dublin. Always a good occasion.

I think it will be on Sky Sports. Don't they have the rights to Irelands home games outside the Six Nations now?

Good job GC - always amazed how quickly you put these together!

If Naiyaravoro tries to weasel out of the contract then I want to see him punished in the courts. Too many players are reneging on their contracts and, at this point, he would be leaving Glasgow with no time to find someone else.

If the Wallabies want him then they should at very least be paying big bucks to buy him out his 3 year contract (millions!).

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good job GC - always amazed how quickly you put these together!

Like a pale blue Ayrshire ninja.

madmaccas wrote:If Naiyaravoro tries to weasel out of the contract then I want to see him punished in the courts. Too many players are reneging on their contracts and, at this point, he would be leaving Glasgow with no time to find someone else.

If the Wallabies want him then they should at very least be paying big bucks to buy him out his 3 year contract (millions!).

Absolutely.

He shouldn't be forced over here against his will if he doesn't want to - he's not going to play very well if that's the case - but if there is a contract in place then Glasgow need to get some compensation.

Problem now is that they need to find a replacement if the deal is off.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

madmaccas wrote:If Naiyaravoro tries to weasel out of the contract then I want to see him punished in the courts. Too many players are reneging on their contracts and, at this point, he would be leaving Glasgow with no time to find someone else.

If the Wallabies want him then they should at very least be paying big bucks to buy him out his 3 year contract (millions!).

Absolutely.

He shouldn't be forced over here against his will if he doesn't want to - he's not going to play very well if that's the case - but if there is a contract in place then Glasgow need to get some compensation.

Problem now is that they need to find a replacement if the deal is off.

Yep and any compensations needs to factor that in.

So Glasgow are down DTH, Maitland and backup wing Mata. Not looking good.

But gutted as would have loved to see the big man in blue.

When Xavier Rush canceled his move to Ulster, I was as peed off as Glasgow fans will be. But there is very little the club can actually do- going through the courts takes time and money and rugby clubs don't really have huge amounts of staff to deal with all the legal stuff on top of their regular job.

Notch wrote:When Xavier Rush canceled his move to Ulster, I was as peed off as Glasgow fans will be. But there is very little the club can actually do- going through the courts takes time and money and rugby clubs don't really have huge amounts of staff to deal with all the legal stuff on top of their regular job.

Given the SRU are the ultimate employer it will come down to them - the SRU certainly will have more resources than Glasgow.

If he did rip up the contract for no compensation it makes a mockery of the whole rugby transfer situation and sets a dangerous precedent!

Notch wrote:When Xavier Rush canceled his move to Ulster, I was as peed off as Glasgow fans will be. But there is very little the club can actually do- going through the courts takes time and money and rugby clubs don't really have huge amounts of staff to deal with all the legal stuff on top of their regular job.

Well it depends if the SRU get involved. This has come about because the Wallabies want to play him (and all Australian players are centrally contracted). The SRU can threaten the Wallabies with the loss of Autumn International games etc. It'd be different if he were off to Toulon etc, but in this scenario it's the SRU who signed him and the ARU who want to keep him. So we have a lot more to bargain with.

madmaccas wrote:

Notch wrote:When Xavier Rush canceled his move to Ulster, I was as peed off as Glasgow fans will be. But there is very little the club can actually do- going through the courts takes time and money and rugby clubs don't really have huge amounts of staff to deal with all the legal stuff on top of their regular job.

Well it depends if the SRU get involved. This has come about because the Wallabies want to play him (and all Australian players are centrally contracted). The SRU can threaten the Wallabies with the loss of Autumn International games etc. It'd be different if he were off to Toulon etc, but in this scenario it's the SRU who signed him and the ARU who want to keep him. So we have a lot more to bargain with.

Would that really be much of a bargaining chip since we get a lot more out of the fixture than they do? They can say fine then, we'll just play England, France, Ireland and Wales instead!

We're already down to midweek test status against them when we do travel to Aus.

I cant see him setting foot in Scotland anytime soon unless it is playing for the wallabies.
I think it will be similar to the Naholo story where he has signed for Clermont but now that he has had a good season the NZRU have put pressure on Clermont to release him.
Its not right that this is becoming more common and certainly detracts from the traditional good rugby values.
If he doesn't sign for Glasgow will he be a loss. Possibly yes....he has certainly scored a few tries this season for the Tahs and is a very imposing player. However he has made a fair few mistakes for the Tahs this season as well. He is a big guy but he isn't anywhere near the Savea, Nadolo, Nalaga level yet of being a great winger.
Townsend is very shrewd with his signings and lists of targets so I would imagine he will act pretty quickly and have something lined up as a back up.

Seriously, what is with that Rancid Scotland strip?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Seriously, what is with that Rancid Scotland strip?

Radge, are you honestly saying that a strip of tartan on a white shirt is worse than this?:

Imagine Rob Harley's hair with this in high definition?

Your eyes would melt.

George Carlin wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Seriously, what is with that Rancid Scotland strip?

Radge, are you honestly saying that a strip of tartan on a white shirt is worse than this?:

Imagine Rob Harley's hair with this in high definition?

Your eyes would melt.

True enough it would be a bit orange, but Jeez the tartan just looks tacky.

Like the stuff you would buy from a tourist trap on the royal mile that plays Red Hot Chillie piper music at an unbearably high dB level.

Majestic83 wrote:I cant see him setting foot in Scotland anytime soon unless it is playing for the wallabies.
I think it will be similar to the Naholo story where he has signed for Clermont but now that he has had a good season the NZRU have put pressure on Clermont to release him.
Its not right that this is becoming more common and certainly detracts from the traditional good rugby values.
If he doesn't sign for Glasgow will he be a loss. Possibly yes....he has certainly scored a few tries this season for the Tahs and is a very imposing player. However he has made a fair few mistakes for the Tahs this season as well. He is a big guy but he isn't anywhere near the Savea, Nadolo, Nalaga level yet of being a great winger.
Townsend is very shrewd with his signings and lists of targets so I would imagine he will act pretty quickly and have something lined up as a back up.

Tinfoil hat time. I am sure there has already been a bit of horse trading going on the in background. Townsend has already said he will be coming to the Warriors regardless.

I think what will happen is Australia will cap him, tying him in. He will go to Glasgow, do his 3 years there, to help development. Then return. He isn't ready to international rugby yet so this would be a good path.

I can see your logic, Cakeman, but if he is capped in the Rugby Championship and either he plays out of his skin, or Australia have an injury crisis similar to our own then he could end up drafted into their WC squad.
This would be bad for two reasons; first we need all the bodies we can get our hands on during the WC, second if he plays and has a good tournament then surely he would be ready for international rugby.

My feeling on the whole matter is that the issue of residency has probably driven most of Tacky's actions.
If it looked like his family wouldn't be granted resident status then a three year sojourn at a highish profile club in the northern hemisphere would make a lot of sense. He would earn decent money at Glasgow and put himself "in the shop window" for Toulon et Clermont inter alia.

However, if the ARU suddenly decide they want him and cap him then hey presto the residency qualifications would be met, therefor no need to endure the rain and black pudding suppers of the west coast.

I sincerely hope he has signed a contract and the ARU have to buy him out of it at great cost.

madmaccas wrote:

Notch wrote:When Xavier Rush canceled his move to Ulster, I was as peed off as Glasgow fans will be. But there is very little the club can actually do- going through the courts takes time and money and rugby clubs don't really have huge amounts of staff to deal with all the legal stuff on top of their regular job.

Well it depends if the SRU get involved. This has come about because the Wallabies want to play him (and all Australian players are centrally contracted). The SRU can threaten the Wallabies with the loss of Autumn International games etc. It'd be different if he were off to Toulon etc, but in this scenario it's the SRU who signed him and the ARU who want to keep him. So we have a lot more to bargain with.

Seems like that would hurt Scotland much, much more than Australia. Plenty of other teams happy to take your place and play against Australia more regularly. SRU are right now fighting to stay recognised as a top tier team with regards to touring etc. This wouldn't help them. Samoa in particular would be delighted to get some of the tests the SRU would be turning down. USA, Canada and Japan are also sitting waiting for the scraps to fall from the table. I don't think the SRU are going to risk losing their place at that table just so they can have one more non-Scottish qualified player taking up a slot.

Australia clearly concerned about the residency implications and are willing to fast track him to avoid Scotland getting him. Maybe thats what he wanted all along, who knows.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Notch wrote:When Xavier Rush canceled his move to Ulster, I was as peed off as Glasgow fans will be. But there is very little the club can actually do- going through the courts takes time and money and rugby clubs don't really have huge amounts of staff to deal with all the legal stuff on top of their regular job.

Given the SRU are the ultimate employer it will come down to them - the SRU certainly will have more resources than Glasgow.

If he did rip up the contract for no compensation it makes a mockery of the whole rugby transfer situation and sets a dangerous precedent!

Well, it's far from unprecedented. I mean, it already happened this summer with Naholo and the All Blacks. With us and Rush before... I'm sure there are many examples.

jimbopip wrote:I sincerely hope he has signed a contract and the ARU have to buy him out of it at great cost.

Wait, you don't even know if he's signed on the dotted line?

Notch wrote:

jimbopip wrote:I sincerely hope he has signed a contract and the ARU have to buy him out of it at great cost.

Wait, you don't even know if he's signed on the dotted line?

Yes, previous reports in the Sydney Morning Herald made specific reference to the fact that he had signed something.

Precisely what he signed is unclear.

It is fairly obvious that a Rugby Championship immediately prior to a World Cup is a great opportunity to rotate a squad to stop first choice wingers getting injured and tying a player to Australia in the future in the hope that he will progress as at the same speed as he is now. Of course he will get capped now that he has been chosen for the squad.

George Carlin wrote:Of course he will get capped now that he has been chosen for the squad.

Yeah it's a shame. I'm pragmatic and know that every country picks the odd project player, it's just ours are usually so cr@p - would have been nice to have a good one for a change.

I just can't imagine there being another winger of that quality in the wings for Glasgow. It looks like it'll be a big hit. Shame on him if he does break the contract. Honour is thin on the ground in rugby nowadays.

cakeordeath wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:I cant see him setting foot in Scotland anytime soon unless it is playing for the wallabies.
I think it will be similar to the Naholo story where he has signed for Clermont but now that he has had a good season the NZRU have put pressure on Clermont to release him.
Its not right that this is becoming more common and certainly detracts from the traditional good rugby values.
If he doesn't sign for Glasgow will he be a loss. Possibly yes....he has certainly scored a few tries this season for the Tahs and is a very imposing player. However he has made a fair few mistakes for the Tahs this season as well. He is a big guy but he isn't anywhere near the Savea, Nadolo, Nalaga level yet of being a great winger.
Townsend is very shrewd with his signings and lists of targets so I would imagine he will act pretty quickly and have something lined up as a back up.

Tinfoil hat time. I am sure there has already been a bit of horse trading going on the in background. Townsend has already said he will be coming to the Warriors regardless.

I think what will happen is Australia will cap him, tying him in. He will go to Glasgow, do his 3 years there, to help development. Then return. He isn't ready to international rugby yet so this would be a good path.

I think that outlook is a very optimistic one which sadly I doubt will happen.
From the interviews he has done with the Australian and world press today it sounds like he is definitely going to try and get out of his contract and stay in Australia.
Planet rugby have an article about it which he is quoted in


"Waratahs winger Taqele Naiyaravoro is looking to settle in Australia following his call-up to the Wallabies squad.

Naiyaravoro had signed a three-year contract with Glasgow Warriors before he was being considered by Australia head coach Michael Cheika, who has worked closely with Naiyaravoro at the Waratahs.

The Fijian-born winger told Fox Sports that his family were his priority in making his decision, with discussions to be had with Glasgow in the near future.

"The decision I made is not just about me, it’s for my family as well," he said.

"I am trying to create a good future. I’m not saying playing for Fiji is not, but I’m saying this is a career and for my kids, because they were born here [in Australia] and they’re going to be settling down here, it’s probably the best decision for them."

"I'll probably still have to sort that out [with Glasgow], there is still a lot to sort out with that, for now getting the selection is an indicator of me trying to settle in and try to chase the residency again [in Australia].

"I’ll probably settle here first, and look to overseas afterwards.

"When I had that deal offered to me from Scotland, I didn’t really see myself making the Wallabies team."

Naiyaravoro revealed his emotions after hearing the news from Cheika that he had been called up to the squad.

"When he gave me the call last night, I just started crying. I never thought I’d get selected. I’m still over the moon, I can’t stop thanking God for this opportunity, I never thought it would come. I’m still on cloud nine."

Hopefully Glasgow get some sort of compensation for this. It is beginning to be far too common that this is happening and World rugby or someone needs to stamp down on this.

Without wishing to be to obvious in dragging us away from the subject of stuff we all know very little about...

...How about them summer tests, eh?

Anyone fancy a meet-up in Edinburgh for the match on 29 August? It'll be my last drink before the Great North Run on 13 September so, you know... celebrate.

Wow that's more than a little frank, well he can do one as far as I'm concerned.

This guy has messed everyone around. John McKee said he's promised to play for Fiji, now he's thanking god for being picked for Aus. He signs a huge contract with Glasgow and now wants to stay with the Tahs and says ""I'll probably still have to sort that out'. You think?! Pretty cavalier considering we're talking about a reported million pound contract.

One of the ScottishRugbyBlog writer just posted this on Facebook:

Cammy Black wrote:.@GlasgowWarriors has Taqele Naiyaravoro actually signed for you. The lad seems confused about it http://m.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-debutant-naiyaravoro-buzzing-at-selection-20150702-gi3qbx.html

To which they rather bullishly replied:

Glasgow Warriors wrote:@CammyBlack Yes - here is the story: http://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/15/05/18/warriors-sign-fijian-winger-naiyaravoro …

Looks like they're not gonna give up without a fight.

Interesting final line in the original announcement:
"We look forward to him joining us at the end of the season and we know he'll be with us regardless of any international commitments.”

nickj wrote:Interesting final line in the original announcement:
"We look forward to him joining us at the end of the season and we know he'll be with us regardless of any international commitments.”

Yeah that stuck out a mile at the time.

The thing is, I'd be absolutely happy for him to play for Australia. I can't speak for what is in his heart, but if he feels Fijian and is grateful to Australia, then he really shouldn't be playing for Scotland.

I also can't see Glasgow interfering with him if he wants to play for Australia - what would be the point? The only downside is that he is a bit more tired at the beginning of our domestic season each year. If the flipside of that is that he's available during the six nations, I'll swallow it like Calpol.

Total compensation =

total salary
legal costs
costs in finding and signing comparable replacement
damage to reputation of club
loss in sponsorship
loss of ticket sales
loss of mechandising

plenty of stuff  

that could be millions. Id go for it,  if he wants to break the contract he pays not glasgow. simple.

id be looking at min 1m. 50pc from player and 50pc from oz rugby. quite fair and presumably he has a legal team advising of his contractual obligations !!

Mr Bru, as you may know Princess Daughter is being made an honest woman at the start of August so everything after that is beyond MrsPip's comprehension. If I can persuade her to visit the ancestral homeland I think it would be great to take young Pipetto back to Murrayfield again. He met his Uncle Schiz, and carer, last time so you have a hard act to follow. I'll contact you nearer the time.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_59539,00.html

Well, if thats his attitude towards his Glasgow future you don't want him in your environment anyway. You've gotten this far by having a great culture and a squad that plays for each other. Having a guy who doesn't really want to be there is not ideal. If he wants to stay is Aus he'll eventually stay in Aus, all thats left is the arguing and the money.

If the point of the contract for him was to provide him a route to playing international rugby for Scotland as a second choice to playing for Australia, which he didn't think would happen, now he's got that call-up he's not going to want to honour it. Even if Glasgow have an iron-clad contract and get all sorts of compensation there is no point in having a player who doesn't want to be there.

Notch. I agree with you. However he has screwed us. So we should get our compensation

Back to the subject of warm up matches...

All winnable but we should look to experiment a bit. I don't mind us losing these as long as we find something useful to learn from them!

Ireland we should field 12 first choice players with 3 experimental choices

Italy 10 first choice and 5 experimental

France Mixture of first choice and the breakthroughs from the other games.

I'll be at the Italy match in August with my old man. Happy to grab a pint Bru!

I think I said previously that I’d like to see us put out our strongest team against Italy and aim to give them a doing – Scotland fans (and players) are in need of catharsis given what happened in the 6N.  Given it is the only home game too I’d be disappointed if we put out a completely experimental team.

That's a fair point. I do however think it's a good chance to try McInnally out for example, I think another back row vs Italy would go down well. Perhaps not 10, maybe 12 like with Ireland, but I'd like to see us try combinations (especially at scrum half, I really think Pyrgos/SHC should be our first/second choice, it's an area we've been missing a lot of fizz).

IanBru wrote:Without wishing to be to obvious in dragging us away from the subject of stuff we all know very little about...

...How about them summer tests, eh?

Anyone fancy a meet-up in Edinburgh for the match on 29 August? It'll be my last drink before the Great North Run on 13 September so, you know... celebrate.

The chances of me being able to break the chains of impending fatherhood will be remote. However I will continue my forlorn hope to make this event.

It seems ludicrous that four games from the World Cup and we still don't know our best XV.

Second Row? Gray and Gray? Captain Gilchrist and Hagrid? Is Rob Harley the fifth choice ?
Scrum Half? Is Frodo the Ponderous really there for "inspirational leadership"? All Glasgow fans will tell you that NO-ONE ever deserves to be picked for that reason. In my mind Frodo is fourth choice after; Henners, Samwise Gamgee and then Cooseater. However, each of them has valid reasons for selection i.e. they actually pass the ball faster than passing kidney stones and they sometimes run with it too.
Open side Blair Cowan : stand out 6N's performer or penalty magnet? For me, very much the latter. One can only hope that John Barclay has given his usual masterclass during the training camp and sanity will prevail.
Blind Side Do we really inhabit a universe where Al Strokosh is included as a 6 and neither Kellybrows nor Rob Harley are? Really?


We have four games, so each scrum half should start, and play the majority of, one game.
Dancer is obviously our first (only) choice at 10. So Weir, Jackson and Horne should all get a start to see what we look like without the syncopated one. ( Oh all right if you are feeling masochistic give Tonks another chance to show his complete unsuitability).

Richie V should get a couple of games at 13 to see how he copes. God only knows who will be fit to play at 12.

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that the whole campaign will be determined by two factors; the fitness of our best centres (Dunbar and Bennett), and ultimately Jamesie Cotter's ability to admit that Frodo and Cowan are not the answer.

jimbopip wrote:It seems ludicrous that four games from the World Cup and we still don't know our best XV.

Second Row? Gray and Gray? Captain Gilchrist and Hagrid? Is Rob Harley the fifth choice ?
Scrum Half? Is Frodo the Ponderous really there for "inspirational leadership"? All Glasgow fans will tell you that NO-ONE ever deserves to be picked for that reason. In my mind Frodo is fourth choice after; Henners, Samwise Gamgee and then Cooseater. However, each of them has valid reasons for selection i.e. they actually pass the ball faster than passing kidney stones and they sometimes run with it too.
Open side Blair Cowan : stand out 6N's performer or penalty magnet? For me, very much the latter. One can only hope that John Barclay has given his usual masterclass during the training camp and sanity will prevail.
Blind Side Do we really inhabit a universe where Al Strokosh is included as a 6 and neither Kellybrows nor Rob Harley are? Really?


We have four games, so each scrum half should start, and play the majority of, one game.
Dancer is obviously our first (only) choice at 10. So Weir, Jackson and Horne should all get a start to see what we look like without the syncopated one. ( Oh all right if you are feeling masochistic give Tonks another chance to show his complete unsuitability).

Richie V should get a couple of games at 13 to see how he copes. God only knows who will be fit to play at 12.

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that the whole campaign will be determined by two factors; the fitness of our best centres (Dunbar and Bennett), and ultimately Jamesie Cotter's ability to admit that Frodo and Cowan are not the answer.

Cowan for me is a tough one. He is IMO the form 7 at the moment. I say this because you can count on one hand the ammont of times Barcs has played 7 for the Scarlets. That's not saying Barclay isn't a good player. Thats saying he might have lost his edge as a 7 due to the fact he has played the bulk of his rugby this season at 8. I think the most likely challenger at the moment to Cowan is Watson. He has played very well for Edinburgh at 7 and IMO should be able to make a good case in the warm up games.

Laidlaw is not as simple as you make out Jimbo.

Laidlaw in the Autumn games was superb for Scotland. He was also very strong for Glaws at the tail end of the season. Granted he was a wee bit mince in the 6N but other players who were very promising in the AI's (Harley) also had a bit of a dip in form in the 6N.

SHC would be my choice at the moment with Pyrgos coming on from the bench. I have no idea why Cusiter is still on such a high pedestal with some Scottish fans. Steele has shown more this season IMO.

I personally want to give Russel and SHC as much game time together as humanly possible in the warm up matches. SHC has also been very solid at the kicking duties so the arguments for retaining Laidlaw are fading rapidly.

I see what you're saying, Radge, and by and large I agree with you. But....

Cowan for me is a tough one Yes he is. I think he made a lot of turnovers in the 6N's but that was undone not so much by the mistakes he made (silly penalties and fumbles giving away possession) but the fact that he always seemed to do it when we were putting the opposition under pressure thereby giving them an out. Perhaps he is one of those players who finds the step up just a bit too much? Watson does look very exciting and would bring some energy to the back row, especially if we try to play a fast offloading game a la the Pro 12 Champions.

Laidlaw is not as simple as you make out I'm afraid it is. If he can't see anything on he will box kick every time, that's his default setting. I watched him at Twickenham walk up to a ruck, hold his hands in the air and shrug as if "Oh well here we go " and then kick to the England back three. Even he knew it was counter productive. I think SHC is the best runner with ball in hand, Henners controls the tempo and direction best and Cooseater may be there because of his experience. God help us if Cotter is seeing Frodo as a valuable squad member because "he could do a job at 10".

jimbopip wrote:I see what you're saying, Radge, and by and large I agree with you. But....

Cowan for me is a tough one Yes he is. I think he made a lot of turnovers in the 6N's but that was undone not so much by the mistakes he made (silly penalties and fumbles giving away possession) but the fact that he always seemed to do it when we were putting the opposition under pressure thereby giving them an out. Perhaps he is one of those players who finds the step up just a bit too much? Watson does look very exciting and would bring some energy to the back row, especially if we try to play a fast offloading game a la the Pro 12 Champions.

Laidlaw is not as simple as you make out I'm afraid it is. If he can't see anything on he will box kick every time, that's his default setting. I watched him at Twickenham walk up to a ruck, hold his hands in the air and shrug as if "Oh well here we go " and then kick to the England back three. Even he knew it was counter productive. I think SHC is the best runner with ball in hand, Henners controls the tempo and direction best and Cooseater may be there because of his experience. God help us if Cotter is seeing Frodo as a valuable squad member because "he could do a job at 10".

That would be an error. Russell & Horne should be the front runners for the 10 jersey. Weir has come up wanting time and time again and Jackson is an unknown quantity, he has been injured and even when he hasn't been injured he hasn't shown even half of what Russel has.

Horne despite his shakey performance against Italy is frankly the best of what we have left. It's very unfair to judge him on the back of what was generally a poor performance by all in the context of the Italy game. He deserves more game time at 10 and given a chance to show what he can do. However not at the expense of SHC and Russel playing together. We should focus on getting SHC and Russel playing as much rugby as a unit as we can.

It is kind of an eggs in one basket tactic but we are kidding ourselves if we think any of the alternatives are as good at the moment as these two. Scotland's RWC IMO hinges on those 2 being fit and playing well together.

Going back to Tonks, I know it is a 'Glasgow thing' but I don't see why there's so much negativity about him.

Jimbopip wrote:Oh all right if you are feeling masochistic give Tonks another chance to show his complete unsuitability).

Tonks is untested at worst at international level as, when he came off the bench in the 6N, it was usually only the last 10 minutes or so where he played 12/13/15 and generally just had to put a defencive shift in - something which I noted at the time he did well. He's certainly not made the high profile errors that Horne has whenever he's played.

So really he's not had the chance to show what he can do at international level, so to call him completely unsuitable is way OTT. Horne so far has shown himelf to be out his depth at that level IMO - and Tonks may do so as well - but the simple fact is that I'm not even sure Tonks has played 10 for Scotland yet.

So he is inexperienced and unproven, but completely unsuitable is too much.

He's not been helped by injury and Solomons moving him around the Edinburgh back division, but the reason for optimism is that when he played at 10 for a number of games in a row for Edinburgh he did well.

And just to clarify - I'm not saying he's a better option than Horne before the Glasgow lot make 5 from 2+2 again, I just think he needs to actually have some gametime at 10 for Scotland so we know what he's got.

RDW, it's interesting that usually when we discuss Tonks we bring Horne in as a point of reference. I see Tonks as being in the position Horne was not so long ago.  
Is he good enough to be Ednburgh's first choice 12? No. Strauss then Scott then him.
Is he their fist choice 15?  Actually he's way behind Lightning Jack Cuthbert.
Is he their first choice 10? He is if being just ahead of Te Rure makes you first choice.

For Horne; Russell,Dunbar, Bennett (and Vernon) and Hogg were 10, 12, 13 and 15 ahead of him. So, possibly all Tonks needs is a run of games and we'll all see that he really is capable of playing at the highest level.

However the big difference between Tonks situation at the Luvvies and Horne at the Champions is that the players being chosen ahead of Furra Linee are all world class. Tonks is being kept out by ....well by Luvvies.

As much as I don't like facts getting in the way of an argument:

1 - I don't think he's ever played 12 for Edinburgh, and certainly isn't considered one. The only time he's played 12 recently is as emergenncy cover for Scotland during the 6N when he came on and put in a solid defensive effort.

2 - He's not behind Cuthbert. Tonks was out for a while injured but when he came back Cuthbert was also injured, so Solomons decided Burleigh at 10 and Tonks at 15 was better than Tonks at 10 and Tom Brown or Nick Mclennan at 15. Therefore Tonks got a lot of games at 15.

3 - I'd have him as Edinburgh's first choice 10. Heathcoat started the sesson when Tonks was injured and Burleigh finished it given Cuthbert's injury at 15, and Te Rure is gash, but Tonks is the best choice IMO and I'm fairly sure we'll see him play there a lot next season.

Just checked - Tonks was out most of the season.  When he returned in February he was selected at 10 for a run of games (from memory he'd barely played all season when he was in the 6N squads).  When Cuthbert was injured he was moved to 15.

Its pointless RDW. Tonks could score a hatrick in the world cup final victory over the all blacks (you heard it here first) and hed still have Glasgow fans saying he shouldnt be in the team.

IBD, I really don't think that's true.

I would simply say that being a good player in a relatively average team is not an indicator of international class.

Starting in the league final and getting into bed that night clutching a big shiny trophy is a rather stronger claim, I think.

IanBru wrote:IBD, I really don't think that's true.

I would simply say that being a good player in a relatively average team is not an indicator of international class.

Starting in the league final and getting into bed that night clutching a big shiny trophy is a rather stronger claim, I think.

That's comparing Horne with Tonks, which is a completely different argument (Horne's showings at Scotland level so far would be the main evidence against him). We have very little to go on for Tonks being a 10 at international level, so that would be the evidence against him.

I was merely discrediting Jimbopip's claim that Tonks is completely unsuitable at International level.

IanBru wrote:
I would simply say that being a good player in a relatively average team is not an indicator of international class.

Neither is being a good player in a good club team... cough HORNE cough...

sorry, hay fever got me there.

Imperialbigdave wrote:Its pointless RDW. Tonks could score a hatrick in the world cup final victory over the all blacks (you heard it here first) and hed still have Glasgow fans saying he shouldnt be in the team.

Funny you should mention a hatrick by Tonks, as 3 tries is all he's appeared to have scored since joining Edinburgh. But somebody scored 100 points this season alone.....oooh whats his name?....its on the tip of my tongue