Welsh World Cup Squad part 2

First topic message reminder :

Anyone else think Ll Williams and Anscombe did well when they came on? Would definitely take them over Phillips and Hook at the moment.

Hibbard is a big surprise for me!

fES,

Think it was to most and like Phillips I would have taken him as 3rd choice

Dropping Phillips is a step in the right direction for Gatland, faith in the youthful scrum halves who have shown better form and promise over the last few seasons.

No surprise to me - good choices from Gatland. Hook and Phillips are has beens and Baker is a good club player, no more. Hibbard has not looked that interested for a while. He must see something in Lloyd Williams that I don't though, I've never rated him as test level.

IronMike wrote:Dropping Phillips is a step in the right direction for Gatland, faith in the youthful scrum halves who have shown better form and promise over the last few seasons.

IM,

I agree in principle but that's a lot experience to lose. I am surprised at Hibbard but felt Phillips might miss out after Saturdays performance, as I have mentioned before I would have taken both as 3rd choice.

Davies and or Williams must have come on a lot then..i thought MP had a job to do vs Fiji but age and recovery and his slow service obviously did for him. Hibbard is a straight forward shocker, already we have a front row compromised and now we are taking out a bulky experienced lion…then again, Owens and Baldwin have shown their mettle and Dacey must have that extra something.

Couple of points 1) By the look of things we are in extremely serious trouble in the Tight Head area when they HAVE to keep those 2 terrible scrummagers Andrews and Jarvis in the squad, 2) Personally things couldn't have gone much better for my team, we have Smith and Baker back which means Bevington is kept out of the first team and we can have Baker slotting by the side of Delve in our back row in the early part of the season, Thornton will also learn from Steenkamp, Bernardo, and Ashley (formerly Peers), the 3 of them will have gained significantly from the training regime with TW, and probably the best news is the fact that Jarvis is staying, this could speed up either Fia the NZer coming or we go out and get emergency cover.

Gwlad wrote:Davies and or Williams must have come on a lot then..i thought MP had a job to do vs Fiji but age and recovery and his slow service obviously did for him. Hibbard is a straight forward shocker, already we have a front row compromised and now we are taking out a bulky experienced lion…then again, Owens and Baldwin have shown their mettle and Dacey must have that extra something.

I think Davies was always going to be included and it was a straight choice between Williams and Phillips likewise I think it was always going to be Baldwin and Owens with Hibbard and Dacey fighting for last spot.

It is a lot of experience to use and I would have expected both Hibbard and Phillips to start against Uruguay and Fiji but as usual Gatland not afraid to make the big calls so lets hope he has got these right.

Makes no sense, we effectively have to rotate two teams for the first 3 games due to the space between them. Philipps and Hibbard v Fiji would have made me feel much more comfortable but fair enough, Gatland does make big calls. Lets hope he is smart enough to play two 7s v Aus and England with Lydiate on the bench.

The issue is with older players and recovery, is that they need to be head and shoulders above the contender to be worth the hassle of having to tailor your changes to rest them etc...

In this case Hibbard is probably only considered 3rd choice at best, and with his weaknesses getting worse and his strengths being negated he is probably more hassle than he's worth!

Phillips would have been handy to have around the suad i'm sure, but his horror show on saturday proved he hasn't the physical ability on the top level any more, his height was always part of his problem, but was negated by his coordinational, and aggressive abilities.

Hook has stuttered for years now, he's not a 10, he's a very talented player without a position, talent doesn't automatically mean performance sadly!

I'll tell you why I think the big 3 names have been dropped, I believe that this game was a selection test...

I think Gatland was looking for 2 things,

Firstly that the younger players could show enough to convince him they can add to the squad in the RWC.

Secondly, that the older players were experienced enough to lead the younger players. I think Hibbard, Phillips and Hook were being tested on how they add their experience to a team. We've seen all 3 players look good with proven leaders all around them, but with players of equal abilities they needed to prove their worth to the squad, none of the 3 were considered first or even second choice, so as third choice you have to either fight for a spot, or bring something to the squad atmosphere, and this is where all 3 crashed dramatically. None showed leadership when everyone was screaming out for it!

Gwlad wrote:Makes no sense, we effectively have to rotate two teams for the first 3 games due to the space between them. Philipps and Hibbard v Fiji would have made me feel much more comfortable but fair enough, Gatland does make big calls. Lets hope he is smart enough to play two 7s v Aus and England with Lydiate on the bench.

Really be surprised if he does that, I just can't see him doing it somehow happily to be proved wrong. With regards the Uruguay/Fiji games I would expect Dacey and Ll Williams to start with the others hopefully just backing up off the bench in case of injury

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Makes no sense, we effectively have to rotate two teams for the first 3 games due to the space between them. Philipps and Hibbard v Fiji would have made me feel much more comfortable but fair enough, Gatland does make big calls. Lets hope he is smart enough to play two 7s v Aus and England with Lydiate on the bench.

Really be surprised if he does that, I just can't see him doing it somehow happily to be proved wrong.  With regards the Uruguay/Fiji games I would expect Dacey and Ll Williams to start with the others hopefully just backing up off the bench in case of injury

I just don't see us taking Fiji lightly, they will be competitive for long periods, and anything other than a 4/5 key players replaced will see us struggle! They aren't the downtrodden, weakened outfit they were 4 years ago, allbeit they are weakened.

Problem being there is only 5 days between the England game and the Fiji game so we have to rotate lets say that his 1st side (injury permitting) for the England game is:

Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee, AWJ , Charteris, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Webb, Biggar
North, Roberts, Sc Williams, Li Williams
Halfpenny

James, Owens, Francis, Ball, Tipuric, Davies, Priestland and for arguments sake Amos.  

For the Fiji game 5 days later who do we rotate without weakening it to much

bedfordwelsh wrote:Problem being there is only 5 days between the England game and the Fiji game so we have to rotate lets say that his 1st side (injury permitting) for the England game is:

Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee, AWJ , Charteris, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Webb, Biggar
North, Roberts, Sc Williams, Li Williams
Halfpenny

James, Owens, Francis, Ball, Tipuric, Davies, Priestland and for arguments sake Amos.  

For the Fiji game 5 days later who do we rotate without weakening it to much

BW, apart from swapping the hookers that is exactly how I would go, if you add the rest of your squad I'll try to answer your question

5 days isnt the tight turn around it seems, clubs have regularly played a Sunday match followed by a friday night in certain situations, it's the constant short turn around that proves an issue.

That why I think you withold just the key 5/6 player, and keep the team playing as much as possible

Interesting thoughts on the double open-side combo. I think it's a good shout as Eng and Aus seem to have worked out the chopper and fetcher combo; by that I simply mean it isn't effective against these two teams. It hasn't been for a while. It works when we can beat teams up front, it worked against France, possibly Ireland to an extent. But when it comes to these games in the world cup I don't think Lydiate should be starting. Even Ospreys fans are starting to rate King higher as he can do a lot more than tackle. Unless Lydiate learns to be a devastating ball carrier (as he was early in his career) again, he should be on the bench.

wayne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Problem being there is only 5 days between the England game and the Fiji game so we have to rotate lets say that his 1st side (injury permitting) for the England game is:

Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee, AWJ , Charteris, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Webb, Biggar
North, Roberts, Sc Williams, Li Williams
Halfpenny

James, Owens, Francis, Ball, Tipuric, Davies, Priestland and for arguments sake Amos.  

For the Fiji game 5 days later who do we rotate without weakening it to much

BW, apart from swapping the hookers that is exactly how I would go, if you add the rest of your squad I'll try to answer your question

Wayne,

I would be happy swapping the hookers just gave Baldwin benefit of doubt being man in possession etc. Rest of the 31 man squad I imagine will be: Evans, Dacey, Jarvis, Moriarty, King, Ll Williams, Anscombe, T Morgan.

He could maybe drop Jarvis and use James/Jenkins as emergency T/Heads that would allow him to pick another forward or back.

Fanster wrote:5 days isnt the tight turn around it seems, clubs have regularly played a Sunday match followed by a friday night in certain situations, it's the constant short turn around that proves an issue.

That why I think you withold just the key 5/6 player, and keep the team playing as much as possible

Fanster,

Who would you say are the 5/6 key players?

This is the team i hope to see v Fiji

James, Owens, Francis
Davies, Ball
Lydiate, Tipuric, King
Davies
Priestland (prefer Anscombe)
Walker
Roberts
Morgan
Amos
Anscombe

Bench
Warburton
Dacey
Jarvis
Evans
AWJ
Lloyd
S Williams
Halfpenny

Gwlad,

What would your 31 man squad be as mine wouldn't have Davies or Walker possibly.

Faletau started every game in the 2011 WC and I bet he will be one of the players asked to double up a lot this year as well.

Evans, James, Jenkins, Owens, Baldwin, Dacey, Lee, Jarvis, Francis
Ball, Charters, Bradley, AWJ
Faletau, Tipuric, Warburton, Lydiate, Moriarty
Webb, Davies, Williams,
Biggar, Anscombe, Preistland
Williams, Roberts, Morgan
North, Liam, Half, Walker OR Cuthbert OR Amos!!

Gwlad wrote:Evans, James, Jenkins, Owens, Baldwin, Dacey, Lee, Jarvis, Francis
Ball, Charters, Bradley, AWJ
Faletau, Tipuric, Warburton, Lydiate, Moriarty
Webb, Davies, Williams,
Biggar, Anscombe, Preistland
Williams, Roberts, Morgan
North, Liam, Half, Walker OR Cuthbert OR Amos!!

Can't play King against Fiji then. Pretty much same I think but the grey areas are do we take Jarvis which means Davies or King would miss out and as you said will it be Walker, Cuthbert or Amos. For me it would be Amos.

mikey_dragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I think Patchell could be a useful lad to hang on to. He is a great attacking player from fly half, fullback and centre. Good in defence too

Sad truth is that the NDC boys are all going to the RWC if fit.

So that means Annscome will be going as the utility type fly half, no matter whether e is a better option than Patch or not.  Same as Rhodri Jones would have been going as a tighthead regardless too.

I don't think the NDC has preference, I think Anscombe is probably the better man for the job. Taking the ball flat and fast at first receiver is what we need.

Patchells biggest plus point is his long range kicking

Oh but it does.

I haven't seen any evidence that it does.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Fanster wrote:
I think Matthew Morgan is seen as the ace in the hole, the livewire who comes on 10 to go when your down by 5-9 and told to rip it up, other than that I see no benefit in him whatsoever!!!

To waste a world cup squad place on such a player is nonsensical.

Same was said of Shane Williams. Shane Williams said Morgan is the best attacking player he has ever played with.

Also keeping Morgan on camp for other lads to practice defence against is probably a good thing. He maybe small but he has one hell of a side step.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Coleman wrote:Morgan seems like the type of player who would thrive (in attack) against Fiji. If the game opens up he can cut teams. We may need every point we can get in that game if points difference is a factor. He is a livewire in attack. But much like Bristol, you'd take him off for a more rounded player in tight games.

He couldn't start against Fiji we can't play them at their own game we need to play a structured game then if it does open up and we are already points ahead then he could be electric but again I don't think he will go.

We need to put a bigger score on Fiji and Uraguay than Australia and England can, just in case we lose or draw against England or Oz

Yes Amos but i'd be happy with Cuthbert now. King in the Fiji side was before the latest cut which changes everything.

There aren't any grey areas really…Jarvis will go in case Lee fails to recover, as back up to Frances with possibly James playing 3 against Uruguay.

IMO we need Davies more than we need an inexpereinced utility lock back row now; Ball and Davies makes a great lock 2nd string.

North has to cover 13 i think. We have no cover at 12 but since Hook has now gone i expect S Williams covers that.

The backs are one or two injuries away from a complete sh1t show.

God help us.

We could play something like this V Fiji
James, Owens, Frances
Ball, Davies
Lydiate, Tipuric, Faletau (I want Tips/Warbs v Aus and Eng)
Davies
Priestland
Cuthbert
S Williams
Morgan
Amos
Anscombe

I do think that the DCs influence his selection these days, what would have been interesting is if Hook had had a stormer on Saturday and Anscombe off the pace then it would have made the decision to pick Anscombe harder. As it was I thought Anscombe went really well off the bench which made the decision to pick him easier.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I do think that the DCs influence his selection these days, what would have been interesting is if Hook had had a stormer on Saturday and Anscombe off the pace then it would have made the decision to pick Anscombe harder. As it was I thought Anscombe went really well off the bench which made the decision to pick him easier.

sure, but all Anscombe had to do was not urine his pants and he would have outdone Hook. All Hook had to do was be a solid distributing 10 not a 13 which he failed at miserably…even managed a trademark hospital pass out wide. Fact is that guy was only ever a 13 and an impact one at that. Sad.

Anscombe has to produce now and i hope he gets a start at 15.

Gwlad wrote:Yes Amos but i'd be happy with Cuthbert now. King in the Fiji side was before the latest cut which changes everything.

There aren't any grey areas really…Jarvis will go in case Lee fails to recover, as back up to Frances with possibly James playing 3 against Uruguay.

IMO we need Davies more than we need an inexpereinced utility lock back row now; Ball and Davies makes a great lock 2nd string.

North has to cover 13 i think. We have no cover at 12 but since Hook has now gone i expect S Williams covers that.

The backs are one or two injuries away from a complete sh1t show.

God help us.

We could play something like this V Fiji
James, Owens, Frances
Ball, Davies
Lydiate, Tipuric, Faletau (I want Tips/Warbs v Aus and Eng)
Davies
Priestland
Cuthbert
S Williams
Morgan
Amos
Anscombe

I have a feeling Davies might make way for king. King is more athletic and we need tries vs the two lower ranked teams in the group.

maestegmafia wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Yes Amos but i'd be happy with Cuthbert now. King in the Fiji side was before the latest cut which changes everything.

There aren't any grey areas really…Jarvis will go in case Lee fails to recover, as back up to Frances with possibly James playing 3 against Uruguay.

IMO we need Davies more than we need an inexpereinced utility lock back row now; Ball and Davies makes a great lock 2nd string.

North has to cover 13 i think. We have no cover at 12 but since Hook has now gone i expect S Williams covers that.

The backs are one or two injuries away from a complete sh1t show.

God help us.

We could play something like this V Fiji
James, Owens, Frances
Ball, Davies
Lydiate, Tipuric, Faletau (I want Tips/Warbs v Aus and Eng)
Davies
Priestland
Cuthbert
S Williams
Morgan
Amos
Anscombe

I have a feeling Davies might make way for king. King is more athletic and we need tries vs the two lower ranked teams in the group.

need to win them first! big brad has experience and moriarty offers much more than lydiate or even faletau in carrying terms. We can't take fiji lightly

how are sanjay and samson doing anyone know; we are 1 month off

Last I heard they were looking good for the Uraguay game but nothing before that.

I guess both must start if fit; with a view to having a run out so that they are ready for England. We really need both.

This side stands a really good chance

Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee
AWJ, Charteris
Tipuric, Faletau, Warbs
Webb
Bigger
North
Roberts
S Williams
Half
L Williams

Bench
James
Owens
Frances
Ball
Lydiate
Davies
Anscombe
Amos

I think most of us would enjoy watching that team.

I imagine that though Williams might fit in better at 15 in the long run, short term if he is coming in late he may get picked at wing as Halfpenny would have done more of the training at fullback...?

maestegmafia wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Fanster wrote:
I think Matthew Morgan is seen as the ace in the hole, the livewire who comes on 10 to go when your down by 5-9 and told to rip it up, other than that I see no benefit in him whatsoever!!!

To waste a world cup squad place on such a player is nonsensical.

Same was said of Shane Williams. Shane Williams said Morgan is the best attacking player he has ever played with.

Shane Williams says a lot of things. The more he talks, the less attention I pay.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Fanster wrote:
I think Matthew Morgan is seen as the ace in the hole, the livewire who comes on 10 to go when your down by 5-9 and told to rip it up, other than that I see no benefit in him whatsoever!!!

To waste a world cup squad place on such a player is nonsensical.

Same was said of Shane Williams. Shane Williams said Morgan is the best attacking player he has ever played with.

Shane Williams says a lot of things. The more he talks, the less attention I pay.

Agreed. His rants in the rugby paper are cringeworthy. Besides, you can be the best attacking player in the world, but if you have no defence, then you are only half a rugby player.

I cannot believe the negativity on here regarding the dropping of Hibbard. Ok it is nice to see him smashing players backwards when in defence, but that is a high risk strategy as if he misses or times it wrong it is either a pen or an overlap. We do not need players to do that job, we have enough big uns as it is for doing that.

What we need is a hooker, who can hook, throw the ball into a line out and scrummage, unfortunately Hibbard cannot do any of those things at an international standard, he was always dodgy when it came to doing the job of a hooker, he has just been lucky to be playing during the previous scrum laws and he had Adam Jones next to him, lets be honest, under the previous laws Adam Jones more or less held the scrum together on his own.

When you have a hooker who is more interested in his hair and looking good on the field in open play instead of doing the dirty work and hitting his line out jumpers and doing the basics of his job, then he becomes surplus to requirements in my opinion.

Lets be honest, at the start of the thread (well the last thread) we were mostly agreeing that the hooker position is one where all the squad members were pretty similar, and Hibbard was possibly the third choice there. Seeing as he had a mare last weekend it is understandable that he was dropped.

I'm not overly shocked he's gone. His main job is to throw straight, hook the ball and scrummage not just be an occasional Exocet missile.

He's certainly dropped in form since the Lions tour.

Baldwin Chatteris AWJ were pretty tight with line out in the six nations. Owens has had another good season so no surprises there. Hibbard has not overly impressed this year.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

wayne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Problem being there is only 5 days between the England game and the Fiji game so we have to rotate lets say that his 1st side (injury permitting) for the England game is:

Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee, AWJ , Charteris, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Webb, Biggar
North, Roberts, Sc Williams, Li Williams
Halfpenny

James, Owens, Francis, Ball, Tipuric, Davies, Priestland and for arguments sake Amos.  

For the Fiji game 5 days later who do we rotate without weakening it to much

BW, apart from swapping the hookers that is exactly how I would go, if you add the rest of your squad I'll try to answer your question

Wayne,

I would be happy swapping the hookers just gave Baldwin benefit of doubt being man in possession etc.  Rest of the 31 man squad I imagine will be: Evans, Dacey, Jarvis, Moriarty, King, Ll Williams, Anscombe, T Morgan.

He could maybe drop Jarvis and use James/Jenkins as emergency T/Heads that would allow him to pick another forward or back.

BW, if that is your squad, and if there are no serious injuries from the England game, ie no subs on before H/T I would play all the subs from that game, then Evans, Ll williams and Moriarty, on the bench with Morgan Anscombe and King all playing so 4 from the first match team retained.
Therefore my team would be James, Owen, Francis, Ball, Charteris, King, Tipuric, Faletau, Davies, Priestland, Amos, Roberts, Morgan, North, Anscombe with Evans, Baldwin, Lee, AWJ, Moriarty, Lloyd Williams, Liam and Scott on the bench, if something happens to Priestland, Anscombe can go to O/H and Liam to F/B.
I don't think I quite agree with your 31, but the vast majority I do agree with, I just wish we could try out Samson for about 10 or 15 minutes of the Irish game and that we could have 2 T/Hs and have James to cover across in an emergency, we could do with another back IMO as I think we will need big scores in both Uruguay and Fiji games, as for hooker I really like Owens, even though Baldwin hasn't let us down, I think Ken is more dynamic about the field.

Wayne,

What would your 31 be? Think most selections are pretty much the same for 26/27 of the players its just the last few slots and whether we take specialists or utility.

I didn't realise there was that much negativity over Hibbards exclusion, whilst a lot (me included) did think it was a bit of a shock it wasn't totally unexpected.

Despite him being a strong scrummager his lineout play has always been poor and again whilst it's great to see the big hits when they come off they don't always come off and it leaves huge gaps in the defence when he rushes out to make the hit.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wayne,

What would your 31 be?  Think most selections are pretty much the same for 26/27 of the players its just the last few slots and whether we take specialists or utility.

Seems to me our only utility options are now Amos, King and Anscombe. The latter is a cert; DC, plays 10 and 15 and ousted Hook. Amos likewise is in no doubt.

King seems unnecessary as we have such good cover in the back row and at lock. We have to take extra props though, and that may cost Ball or Davies for King.

Gwlad,

That's my line of thinking, as you mentioned with injuries doubts over Lee and Francis' in-experience I think Jarvis (heaven forbid it's Andrews) will go and I have a sneaky feeling King will as well which means Ball or Davies missing out.

Personally think it would be Davies that does if that was to happen.

Davies has had injury issues...!

[quote="bedfordwelsh"]Wayne,

What would your 31 be?  Think most selections are pretty much the same for 26/27 of the players its just the last few slots and whether we take specialists or utility.[/quote.
It is very confusing BW, if it is as you say, I think I would have Bradley Davies instead of either King or Moriarty, and if it is as I said Lee can play some part against Ireland I would have either Allen or Walker as an extra in the backs instead of the 3rd T/H with James covering across in an emergency, basically I would have 29 or 30 of yours, but I'm just splitting hairs.

Even Gatland said there is about 5/6 that he not sure about and I think that's where most of us are. The bulk picks itself then its the fine details as such.

JENKINS, James, Evans, LEE, Francis, Jarvis
BALDWIN,Owens, Dacey
AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball
FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, Tip , Moriarty , King
WEBB, Davies, Ll Williams
BIGGAR, Priestland, Anscombe
ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan
NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Amos