Eng v Aus - Limited Overs Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures:

31 Aug: T20, Cardiff, 15:00 BST

3 Sep: 1st ODI, Southampton, 14:00
5 Sep: 2nd ODI, Lord's, 10:30
8 Sep: 3rd ODI, Old Trafford, 14:00
11 Sep: 4th ODI, Headingley, 10:30
13 Sep: 5th ODI, Old Trafford, 10:30


Squads:

England T20:
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Sam Billings (Kent), Jos Buttler (Lancashire, wk), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), Reece Topley (Essex), James Vince (Hampshire), David Willey (Northamptonshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).


England ODI
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Sam Billings (Kent), Jos Buttler (Lancashire, wk), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), James Taylor (Nottinghamshire), David Willey Northamptonshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham)




Australia
David Warner, Joe Burns, Steve Smith (capt), Shane Watson, George Bailey, Matthew Wade, Mitch Marsh, Marcus Stoinis, Glenn Maxwell, Ashton Agar, Nathan Coulter-Nile, Mitchell Starc, Pat Cummins, James Pattinson. Cameron Boyce (T20 only)

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That side is the sex

And I wouldn't be against them bringing in willey or billings at some point either. Root to come in too.

Strong strong stuff

[LondonTiger]

So, our search for a finisher continues. Slightly worried as Ali's success in ODIs has come at the top of the order.

Billings was unlucky in that he was given a job to do that is very different to that he doues for Kent. Hard enough making the step up to int level as it is, but made ever so much harder when in an unfamiliar role.

I approve of Taylor in as a direct replacement for Root. Similar style of player.

[Duty281]

England are going to get battered by the World Champions here.

[Mat]

Moeen being wasted down the order once again.

[Gooseberry]

Oh well there you go they obviously listened to us, IM really not sure about Ali below Buttler though.

[VTR]

I'm not sure this side is as good as Olly makes out. I could see the bowling conceding a lot of runs! And the batting order looks like a bit of a muddle to me with Moeen way too low down the order

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Any side with the Woakes/Stokes partnership is awesome but throw in a bit of Moeen/Adil as well and I'm all in

Bat down to 9, 6 bowling options, I'm turned on by it

[Duty281]

Moeen is too low, Stokes is too high, and Buttler is horrendously out of touch.

Lightning-fast outfield, on first impression, so it seems likely that England will be chasing north of 320 - and England never do well chasing more than 250!

[Stella]

Oh well there you go they obviously listened to us, IM really not sure about Ali below Buttler though.

Buttler has to be above Ali, if Ali isn't opening. Having Buttler down at seven would be a massive waste.

[VTR]

I am not sure we need batting down to 9. When does a number 9 ever win an ODI with the bat?

Let's see how they go anyway!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I am not sure we need batting down to 9. When does a number 9 ever win an ODI with the bat?

Let's see how they go anyway!

Doesn't exactly hurt!

[Stella]

I am not sure we need batting down to 9. When does a number 9 ever win an ODI with the bat?

Let's see how they go anyway!

Doesn't exactly hurt!

It does of we can't bowl them out due to having picked inferior bowlers.

[king_carlos]

Which bowlers would we like to be picked for a stronger bowling line-up?

I'd argue that Rashid would be better complemented by a containing spinner such as Tredwell. Other than that I think it's a good bowling line-up. Spin options are limited as we know though and Moeens ODI record with the ball is pretty solid - an economy below 5.

Broad has been poor for too long. Jordan was inconsistent. Willey could perhaps consider himself lucky but Finn and Wood bowled well against NZ and Woakes is good bowler with a bit more pace.

The batting line-up is still undecided but it is flexible. Ali could easily be bumbed up the order if we want to keep Buttler back as a 'finisher'.

Stokes at 5 is the right decision IMO. If playing he needs to be picked primarily for his batting as his bowling is too inconsistent. If played as a batsmen he should be up the order where he bats for Durham.

[Stella]

A left armer (Willey) will have given us more variety, but I'm quite happy with this line up.

[Gooseberry]

I am not sure we need batting down to 9. When does a number 9 ever win an ODI with the bat?

Let's see how they go anyway!

Doesn't exactly hurt!

It does of we can't bowl them out due to having picked inferior bowlers.

Englands current style require sthem to bat as deep as possible. If you look at the earlier ODIs  this summer they did rely on the guys well down to make runs, and knowing they were there enabled the top order to play like lunatics.

Yes bowlers should be picked as the best first, but this also means wicket takesrs now in the current england vision. It was a crappish ball from Ali that swung the T20, not a contianing over from Collingwood Mk2.
Tredwell hasnt done much this year to say hes in the best 2 spinners, and is unlikely to be alive by the time the next world cup rolls around. Lets also not forget this is a development game both for the teams style and the individual palyers.  Tredwell for me misses out on quality, youth and ability to execute englands game plan. I dont think his exclussion is exactly a controversy or a surprise.


The seamer picks are perhaps a bit more iffy, but they are missing both Broad and Anderson form the euqation who are at least in theory still available when the next major trophy rolls around.

[Gooseberry]

England do badly need a couple of wickets here. Aus are very top loaded in their batting, espeically with Watson looking like a walking wicket in all formats. Wade only avergaes 22 in ODIs, Marsh cant be much more full of confidence than Watto is and then the tail is a genuine tail.

But of they cant break this partnership its moving along well enough to lay the base for a hunky total to chase...even by current standards.

[VTR]

A very crap ball gifts England a wicket! Aussies failing to cope with Rashid's variations of full tosses, drag downs and the occasional decent leg-break

[Stella]

A very crap ball gifts England a wicket! Aussies failing to cope with Rashid's variations of full tosses, drag downs and the occasional decent leg-break

Like all good leggie's, length all over the place!!!

[Gooseberry]

Its pretty clear England tactic is now to bore the oposition to death with a succession of fast medium right arm seamers bowling fialry tight but innoucuos deliveries, then follow that up with a series of spinners chucking crappish to full on crap pies for them to get themselves out on. Rashid is perhaps going to take over KPs mantle as englands premier full naughty naughty boy.

[VTR]

A very crap ball gifts England a wicket! Aussies failing to cope with Rashid's variations of full tosses, drag downs and the occasional decent leg-break

Like all good leggie's, length all over the place!!!

Keeps the batsman guessing! I daren't check on the BBC site now for fear of seeing rather a lot of "get him in the Test side" comments

[Gooseberry]

I daren't check on the BBC site now for fear of seeing rather a lot of "get him in the Test side" comments

Just wait till Hales or Roy socres a fast streaky 30.

[VTR]

I daren't check on the BBC site now for fear of seeing rather a lot of "get him in the Test side" comments

Just wait till Hales or Roy socres a fast streaky 30.

Indeed! Or they fail and there is a clamour for Cook to be reinstalled as captain

[Duty281]

126/1 at halfway.

[Stella]

126/1 at halfway.

350 on?

[Duty281]

126/1 at halfway.

350 on?

Easy. Lightning-fast outfield, England firmly on the defensive.

[Stella]

126/1 at halfway.

350 on?

Easy. Lightning-fast outfield, England firmly on the defensive.

Wickets they key, but Maxwell and Watson to come.

[Gooseberry]

Well Warners a huge wicket, and with Watto still "in" its effectively /3 .. so swinging Englands way a bit just when Aus were looking to step on the gas.

[Gooseberry]

126/1 at halfway.

350 on?

Easy. Lightning-fast outfield, England firmly on the defensive.

Are you Trebbs in disguise?

[Gooseberry]

Oh and ..get Rashid in the test side

[Gooseberry]

Second full toss wicket. The pie theory is working.

Aus would probably settle for 300 or so from here. Very much game on. 6 months ago that wouldve been an assumed win for them of course.

[Stella]

Second full toss wicket. The pie theory is working.

Aus would probably settle for 300 or so from here. Very much game on. 6 months ago that wouldve been an assumed win for them of course.

I think they'll be disappointed with 300. If Maxwell stays for another 10 overs then 350 is still on. BUT I'm going for 325.

[Duty281]

126/1 at halfway.

350 on?

Easy. Lightning-fast outfield, England firmly on the defensive.

Are you Trebbs in disguise?

I used to be the bastion of English optimism around these parts but now, as time wears me down, I am merely a realist and a logical thinker.

Ah now Rashid has his fourth. No idea how; he's bowled quite a few full tosses and half-trackers. It won't stop some championing his cause to be in the test side, though.

England have got themselves back into it, but anything more than 300 and they are sunk.

[Stella]

Second full toss wicket. The pie theory is working.

Aus would probably settle for 300 or so from here. Very much game on. 6 months ago that wouldve been an assumed win for them of course.

I think they'll be disappointed with 300. If Maxwell stays for another 10 overs then 350 is still on. BUT I'm going for 325.

They'll take 300 now.

[Duty281]

Australia deciding to throw this game away. Jolly nice of them.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rashid will bowl a lot better and get no wickets, just how it goes!

[msp83]

Rashid realizes that to be valued as and England spinner, you need to perfect the art of getting wickets of rubbish balls. Anyways, it won't hurt his chances to make a test debut in the UAE later this year. And as Lyth failed to grab his chance, they might as well open with Ali and thus go in with plenty of bowling options.

[VTR]

Rashid is almost certain to debut in the UAE you feel. I just hope Joe Public/TMS contributors don't expect too much from a guy bowling the hardest art in the game. Very doubtful they have ever heard of the likes of Imran Tahir so they will be expecting the English Shane Warne

[Duty281]

Adil Rashid will be plundered to all parts by the experienced and knowledgeable Pakistani batsmen if, of course, he does play in the UAE.

Bowling the dross like he did today might be excusable in this format, but not in the greatest and toughest arena of test cricket.

And England have made a decent start. Run-a-ball off the opening seven overs.

[VTR]

As predicted by Gooseberry, Jason Roy is on the TMS contributor plane to the UAE!

Zigzag: With his tighter technique, Roy would probably be our best option to open with Cook in the UAE? Looks more solid than Hales.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think Roy is more of a lower order option in the longer format myself - good knock today

[JDizzle]

Well, Matthew Wade deserves an abssolute roasting. Even if it had been overturned, that is the captains job. You don't go doing that without consulting your skipper.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

A stuttery innings from Stokes, then Mogs and Buttler fall - and England have let this slip away from them. And now Woakes first ball!

[Duty281]

I thought it would be a case of 300+ and England are done - so it has proved. England don't have the correct psychological state, it would seem, to win games on a regular basis when the opposition set in excess of 300.

Nottingham was the exception, not the rule.

The top three in today's batting order for England are full of modern ODI quality - the rest? Not so much.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bit reactionary there Duty - a disappointing loss but the likes of Morgan, Buttler, Stokes and Ali haven't become bad players overnight.

A lot to be excited about with this ODI/T20 lineup imo

[Duty281]

Well, Morgan has been disappointing for a while now. Stokes and Ali are bits and pieces in the ODI format and, while there is no denying his extraordinary and glorious talent, Buttler is horrendously out of nick at present.

I don't think there is a lot to be excited about with England's limited overs sides in truth. Whatever is being coached to them is years behind the top nations, particularly with regards to death bowling. Batting is still a mess, I think; England have little clue on how to bat positively and consistently through a fifty over innings.

306 on that wicket was easily achievable. Yet England failed by a distance.

Australia were desperately poor, and the home side were not even in spitting distance.

[Gooseberry]

Well, Morgan has been disappointing for a while now.

50 - - 0 0 v New Zealand Birmingham 9 Jun 2015 ODI # 3654
88 - - 0 0 v New Zealand The Oval 12 Jun 2015 ODI # 3655
71 - - 0 0 v New Zealand Southampton 14 Jun 2015 ODI # 3656
113 - - 0 0 v New Zealand Nottingham 17 Jun 2015 ODI # 3657
0 - - 1 0 v New Zealand Chester-le-Street 20 Jun 2015 ODI # 3659
38 - - 0 0 v Australia Southampton 3 Sep 2015 ODI # 3680


What the heckins does it take to be appointing?


The top three who are "full of modern ODI quality" have much worse recent records.

And if Ali and Stokes are bits and pieces players hwat is Rashid, or does he get a free pass because he got 3 wickets with full tosses?

[Duty281]

Oh I'm sorry, I meant on more of a long-term basis, specifically the World Cup. When it mattered, Morgan was abysmal.

Taylor is absolute class, while Hales and Roy have high levels of potential in the limited-overs form of the game. Hopefully, they'll begin to cash in soon enough.

Rashid is a bowler who isn't international quality, and I have long been a critic of his inclusion.

[Gooseberry]

Fair enough Id missed the bits above!

Rashids a difficult one. His wickets were the only reason England had the opportunity to balls up the chase, but as we are all painfully aware it was largely with the sort of bowling that gets Ali roundly slated. Between them though the spinners were a pretty effective combination, Ali with the nbest economy of any England bowler and Rashid tempting wild mis strokes.
I certainly dont see someone like Tredwell as the answer.

Aside form Buttlers continued dog form I personally feel Englands issue in this game (aside from no Root) was with the seamers. Plenty of people are suggesting that Broad has been pensioned off as rubbish rather than rested but on the evidence of this thats absolute rot.
Maybe having a left armer in (Willey) mightve helped but they are generally a pretty inocuous bunch.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'm not sure Wood is suited to the one day stuff personally

[Stella]

Back to 'old' England after a fantastic summer. One of the openers needs to go on, or make way. No point in having two blokes who can make a quick 50.

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