Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

[PhilBB]

First topic message reminder :

I don't need to address anything, I am one fan with an opinion the same as you and any other fan.

Sure, but here I am trying to understand your opinion yet, sadly, you won't address a key element of it.

Previously you wrote: "Only sad, narrow minded parochial people stuck in the amateur era mindset would see gwent as something in direct competition to newport." so I wrote a detailed, honest and clear answer as to why that insult is misplaced.

It's misplaced because one club is carrying all of the risk but with only 50% ownership.

Do you think it fair that one club carries all of the financial risk, without total ownership, for a "Gwent" team? Sure, you don't need to address the question but, in all fairness, it will speak volumes if you don't address it.

[Cardiff Dave]

Very shallow analysis I agree, and completely subjective but I do find it strange why so many non-spreys fans are annoyed by the OTR slogan

Like many others, it annoys be because it's a lie. And a lie that is used to undermine support for the other pro teams. Clever, but shameful.

So lets say you get your wish and Newport RFC supporters group or another person gains complete control of the Dragons and they revert to Newport RFC black and amber hoops etc....

Would you still be annoyed vy the OTR slogan?

Excellent choice and in my opinion Cardiff should do similar ie Blue and Black hoops and quarters and introduce a heritage range of merch consisting of such things as a Barry John tankard, a Gareth Edwards nodding gonk, a Mikey Rayer "All Dayer survival kit", a Dan Baugh "ewe looking at me? mirror", a Nicky Robinson kicking tee, a blue Norster jumping T-shirt (not available in black of course), a Mike Hall dartboard etc, etc and more. Kerching!!!

[Cardiff Dave]

I do find the Cardiff fans amusing. They berate us Dragons fans who prefer or support because of the Gwent element. They wish we would just be Newport so their club status is more legitimate while also berating the Ospreys for calling themselves the one true region. Shewerley it couldnt be because this marketing actually works and means that more valley fans would support them over Cardiff

Thanks, but I just find it a bit weird that you lot don't/can't/not allowed to, chant Newport when it is the main name of your team. Bonkers.

[GavinDragon]

Because we aren't just Newport. WRU funding on 03 was agreed on the basis that the team also represented the region of Gwent. Gwent couldnt financially support a pro team on its own so Newport was added to the name. Could Newport have gone it alone without WRU funding and joined an English league? There was talk of it, but for whatever reason Messrs Brown and Hazell decided against.

aha I hear you say. But we do chant Gwent which is not Newport. Correct. But Newport is in Gwent so its a convenient workaround ;-)

[Stone Motif]

Slightly different scenario in he Blues case David.

And eloquently put stone. So how would a newport rfc business model be any different? Save for the business not having the WRU as a sleeping partner

Kind of the question that you need to ask before you wholeheartedly chuck your identity and brand in the bin to go after a new fan base that may or may not exist, no?

[Stone Motif]

Because we aren't just Newport. WRU funding on 03 was agreed on the basis that the team also represented the region of Gwent. Gwent couldnt financially support a pro team on its own so Newport was added to the name. Could Newport have gone it alone without WRU funding and joined an English league? There was talk of it, but for whatever reason Messrs Brown and Hazell decided against.

aha I hear you say. But we do chant Gwent which is not Newport. Correct. But Newport is in Gwent so its a convenient workaround ;-)

In the context of ownership and indeed the ownership of the financial risk in its entirety, we are just Newport.

[LordDowlais]

What would happen if the WRU pulled out of their share of Dragons ?

[GavinDragon]

The risk lies with the directors who can still choose to change whenever they choose. Especially brown who is still owed circa 3m.

And yes it is owned by Newport rfc Ltd. But as I said ongoing wru funding from 03 was based on the gwent element. Take Gwent away back then and you will have lost revenue. Could Brown have taken up the slack? Maybe but he chose not to so we are where we are.

BTW I am not on some crusade to rubbish Newport. For christ sake I was born there. And am a county fan as is my old man. But when playing growing up the pathway was newport schools gwent schools east wales schools and then Wales schools. I was fortunate enough to play the first two and took a lot of pride in representing the whole of Gwent which is why I guess I am such an avid supporter of the concept.

[Stone Motif]

What would happen if the WRU pulled out of their share of Dragons ?

Depends.

[Stone Motif]

The risk lies with the directors who can still choose to change whenever they choose. Especially brown who is still owed circa 3m.

And yes it is owned by Newport rfc Ltd. But as I said ongoing wru funding from 03 was based on the gwent element. Take Gwent away back then and you will have lost revenue. Could Brown have taken up the slack? Maybe but he chose not to so we are where we are.

BTW I am not on some crusade to rubbish Newport. For christ sake I was born there. And am a county fan as is my old man. But when playing growing up the pathway was newport schools gwent schools east wales schools and then Wales schools. I was fortunate enough to play the first two and took a lot of pride in representing the whole of Gwent which is why I guess I am such an avid supporter of the concept.

Can they choose to change? Depends how much influence the WRU have, which is the big unknown. My view is that Hazel and Godfrey have some fantasy in their heads around their silent partners investing something in their product, which has never materialised and never will.

I'm not on a crusade to rubbish Gwent. I just don't see much return, if any, from the direction we've been heading for the last ten years plus.

[LordDowlais]

What would happen if the WRU pulled out of their share of Dragons ?

Depends.

On what ?

What would happen ?

The WRU bailed your team out on the premise that you became the GWENT Dragons so come on what would happen ?

[GavinDragon]

They didn't bail out newport at all. If anything they bailed out gwent.

[LordDowlais]

They didn't bail out newport at all. If anything they bailed out gwent.

They bailed out Newport Gwent Dragons. What would happen if the WRU decided they would pull out like they did with Warriors ?

[munkian]

They didn't bail out newport at all. If anything they bailed out gwent.

They bailed out Newport Gwent Dragons. What would happen if the WRU decided they would pull out like they did with Warriors ?

Didn't they bail out GWENT Dragons - who sold about 7 season tickets until Newport stepped in ?

[LordDowlais]

What would happen NOW, if the WRU pulled out ?

[Stone Motif]

What would happen if the WRU pulled out of their share of Dragons ?

Depends.

On what ?

What would happen ?

The WRU bailed your team out on the premise that you became the GWENT Dragons so come on what would happen ?

Depends.

Only certainty I guess is that you'd carry on with the same ill informed rants on the subject, punctuated by some simpleton fantasy about a valley region.

[LordDowlais]

What would happen if the WRU pulled out of their share of Dragons ?

Depends.

On what ?

What would happen ?

The WRU bailed your team out on the premise that you became the GWENT Dragons so come on what would happen ?

Depends.

Only certainty I guess is that you'd carry on with the same ill informed rants on the subject, punctuated by some simpleton fantasy about a valley region.

So no answer then ? Very Stone Motifesq of you.

[Stone Motif]

They didn't bail out newport at all. If anything they bailed out gwent.

They bailed out Newport Gwent Dragons. What would happen if the WRU decided they would pull out like they did with Warriors ?

Please stop this idiot fantasy now.

The whole premise of your argument is wrong, Newport Gwent Dragons were never bailed out.

[LordDowlais]

Newport Gwent Dragons were never bailed out

Who was it then ?

Newport Dragons ?

Gwent Dragons ?

Either way if the WRU did not come in and take over half of the business there would be no Pro side operating from Rodney Parade.

[Stone Motif]

What would happen if the WRU pulled out of their share of Dragons ?

Depends.

On what ?

What would happen ?

The WRU bailed your team out on the premise that you became the GWENT Dragons so come on what would happen ?

Depends.

Only certainty I guess is that you'd carry on with the same ill informed rants on the subject, punctuated by some simpleton fantasy about a valley region.

So no answer then ? Very Stone Motifesq of you.

Well, it would depend on what covenants and restrictions are attached to the ownership of the 50%. These are unknown, so you may as well ask what the weather will be like next Christmas.

[Stone Motif]

Newport Gwent Dragons were never bailed out

Who was it then ?

Newport Dragons ?

Gwent Dragons ?

Either way if the WRU did not come in and take over half of the business there would be no Pro side operating from Rodney Parade.

Wrong.

[LordDowlais]

Well, it would depend on what covenants and restrictions are attached to the ownership of the 50%. These are unknown, so you may as well ask what the weather will be like next Christmas.

What a very Stone Motifesq answer that is.

[LordDowlais]

Newport Gwent Dragons were never bailed out

Who was it then ?

Newport Dragons ?

Gwent Dragons ?

Either way if the WRU did not come in and take over half of the business there would be no Pro side operating from Rodney Parade.

Wrong.

Well is this wrong :-

http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/50298.html

[LordDowlais]

And this :-

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Rugby+Union%3A+Crisis-hit+Dragons+ready+to+offer+union+a+half+share.-a0110663710

[Guest]

Newport Gwent Dragons were never bailed out

Who was it then ?

Newport Dragons ?

Gwent Dragons ?

Either way if the WRU did not come in and take over half of the business there would be no Pro side operating from Rodney Parade.

LD, we were never bailed out. The WRU stipulated that the Gwent region needed to be a merger of two teams, as were rule rules for the Ospreys region and Warriors, and only Cardiff and Llaneli were allowed to stand alone. When Ebbw Vale left the merger it left Newport essentially standing alone, which the WRU said was not allowed. They then took up the 50% 'share' (without actually becoming an active partner in the Dragons) so that we were essentially not stand alone and couldn't just be Newport RFC. But they never bailed us out. There was no money put in to keep us going, or buying of stakes, in the true sense of a 'bail out'.

[LordDowlais]

But if the WRU did not step in, where would Dragons be now ?


Also, the ESPN link above inclines a different view on it than you do.

[Guest]

You'll also see here that the WRU left the Dragons years ago, so do not hold a 'share' in us anymore (as far as I know) with no-one from the WRU on the board:

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04959513/DRAGONS-RUGBY-LIMITED/directors-secretaries

[LordDowlais]

You'll also see here that the WRU left the Dragons years ago, so do not hold a 'share' in us anymore (as far as I know) with no-one from the WRU on the board:

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04959513/DRAGONS-RUGBY-LIMITED/directors-secretaries

I would not argue with what has happened now, I am asking the question, that without WRU involvement, what would have happened to the pro side residing in Gwent ?

[Guest]

But if the WRU did not step in, where would Dragons be now ?


Also, the ESPN link above inclines a different view on it than you do.

The ESPN link says that there was a new 4 man board, 50/50 with the WRU and the Dragons. It also says that Tony Brown agreed to put the cash in. Nowhere does it say the WRU bailed the dragons out or put cash in. And the WRU have left the board now, as the above link shows. Do you even read these links you post???

[LordDowlais]

But if the WRU did not step in, where would Dragons be now ?


Also, the ESPN link above inclines a different view on it than you do.

The ESPN link says that there was a new 4 man board, 50/50 with the WRU and the Dragons. It also says that Tony Brown agreed to put the cash in. Nowhere does it say the WRU bailed the dragons out or put cash in. And the WRU have left the board now, as the above link shows. Do you even read these links you post???

Yes but you are missing the point, if the WRU did not do what they did, however little it was, what would have happened to the pro side playing in Newport ?

This is the original question I was asking seeing as our resident pillar of the community stone motif decided he was going to start having a go at me.

[Guest]

You'll also see here that the WRU left the Dragons years ago, so do not hold a 'share' in us anymore (as far as I know) with no-one from the WRU on the board:

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04959513/DRAGONS-RUGBY-LIMITED/directors-secretaries

I would not argue with what has happened now, I am asking the question, that without WRU involvement, what would have happened to the pro side residing in Gwent ?

LD, you're asking an impossible question to answer. You're asking us to take a guess. OK, finger in the air...hmmm....Possibly. If the WRU had pulled out but still allowed the dragons to be in the pro12 (not sure if they even have a say in that) then possibly Tony Brown, who stopped active involvement previously because of WRU involvement, might have decided to bankroll us properly as he had done with Newport RFC. Who knows? Just a guess.

A similar hypothetical can be asked of the Scarlets when the WRU bailed them out. If they hadn't would they have survived? Who knows? Maybe a wealthy backer might have stumped up the cash.

[LordDowlais]

Griff, GavinDragon has even admitted there was a bail out.

They didn't bail out newport at all. If anything they bailed out gwent.

[LordDowlais]

A similar hypothetical can be asked of the Scarlets when the WRU bailed them out. If they hadn't would they have survived? Who knows? Maybe a wealthy backer might have stumped up the cash.

Do not get me started on them, they should not have even been a region from the start.

[munkian]

From Wiki

They were formed on 1 April 2003, following an agreement between Ebbw Vale RFC and Newport RFC to form one of five regional rugby entities.[2] Fundamental disagreements between the clubs[3] saw a period of arbitration, led by the then Welsh Rugby Union chief executive David Moffett, which recommended the name "Gwent Dragons". On 28 July the side was launched under that name.[4] This prompted Newport RFC benefactor Tony Brown of Bisley, Surrey to withdraw his financial support for the region. However, by 21 August Brown returned after Ebbw Vale chairman Marcus Russell resigned and the side's name was changed to "Newport and Gwent Dragons".[5] With the Welsh Rugby Union demanding an explanation for the changes, and acrimony between the two clubs[6] another agreement was struck:[7] the side officially became "Newport Gwent Dragons". On 12 November 2003 the region's founding company Gwent Rugby Ltd entered into administration.[8] On 27 November a new company, Dragons Rugby Ltd., was established to run the region, with Newport RFC and the Welsh Rugby Union each holding a 50% stake

[Guest]

Remember also LD that the WRU can't just pull all of 'their' funding out - a large proportion of it is competition and TV money, which the Dragons would be entitled to with or without the WRU existing. Yes, they top that up but in the past the top up wasn't a great deal, so they probably would have survived on the TV and competition money if they'd got someone like Brown to make up the rest.

[Guest]

From Wiki

They were formed on 1 April 2003, following an agreement between Ebbw Vale RFC and Newport RFC to form one of five regional rugby entities.[2] Fundamental disagreements between the clubs[3] saw a period of arbitration, led by the then Welsh Rugby Union chief executive David Moffett, which recommended the name "Gwent Dragons". On 28 July the side was launched under that name.[4] This prompted Newport RFC benefactor Tony Brown of Bisley, Surrey to withdraw his financial support for the region. However, by 21 August Brown returned after Ebbw Vale chairman Marcus Russell resigned and the side's name was changed to "Newport and Gwent Dragons".[5] With the Welsh Rugby Union demanding an explanation for the changes, and acrimony between the two clubs[6] another agreement was struck:[7] the side officially became "Newport Gwent Dragons". On 12 November 2003 the region's founding company Gwent Rugby Ltd entered into administration.[8] On 27 November a new company, Dragons Rugby Ltd., was established to run the region, with Newport RFC and the Welsh Rugby Union each holding a 50% stake

Yep, no bail out. The WRU just didn't want another standalone club.

[munkian]

People keep forgetting where the WRU get their money from....

[GavinDragon]

LD my reference to bail out was more the fact that Ebbw Vale couldn't afford their half of the merger so the WRU stepped in.

[Stone Motif]

But if the WRU did not step in, where would Dragons be now ?


Also, the ESPN link above inclines a different view on it than you do.

Not if you can read it doesn't.

[mikey_dragon]

What would happen NOW, if the WRU pulled out ?

Things would stay the same. WRU don't put anything extra into the Dragons than they do the other regions, despite owning 50%. Do you fancy buying the 50% share for a quid?

[LordDowlais]

Do you fancy buying the 50% share for a quid?

Now there's an idea.

[GavinDragon]

I frequently play the 'what if I won the Euromillions lottery' in my head. Would help if I actually played the lottery though!

[Stone Motif]

I frequently play the 'what if I won the Euromillions lottery' in my head. Would help if I actually played the lottery though!

Let's start our own. I know someone with a tombola.

[Guest]

I frequently play the 'what if I won the Euromillions lottery' in my head. Would help if I actually played the lottery though!

Let's start our own. I know someone with a tombola.

[GavinDragon]

[Cardiff Dave]

Because we aren't just Newport. WRU funding on 03 was agreed on the basis that the team also represented the region of Gwent. Gwent couldnt financially support a pro team on its own so Newport was added to the name. Could Newport have gone it alone without WRU funding and joined an English league? There was talk of it, but for whatever reason Messrs Brown and Hazell decided against.

aha I hear you say. But we do chant Gwent which is not Newport. Correct. But Newport is in Gwent so its a convenient workaround ;-)

Your team is called Newport though with a Gwent Dragons add on. Can't see the prob in being free to chant either or all 3. Whatever takes your fancy I say.

[Cardiff Dave]

Quiz:
In which pub did Tony Brown and Dai Watkins watch the Gwent derby?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/celtic/1875586.stm

[bedfordwelsh]

Quiz:
In which pub did Tony Brown and Dai Watkins watch the Gwent derby?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/celtic/1875586.stm

Haha, yeah I remember that night Griff I was home on leave for the weekend and there was big fuss before the game with both sets of officials posturing and trying to push their weight.

It was absolutely peeing down all day and night and there was a high chance as report says of the game being called off anyway.

[Cardiff Dave]

Quiz:
In which pub did Tony Brown and Dai Watkins watch the Gwent derby?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/celtic/1875586.stm

Haha, yeah I remember that night Griff I was home on leave for the weekend and there was big fuss before the game with both sets of officials posturing and trying to push their weight.

It was absolutely peeing down all day and night and there was a high chance as report says of the game being called off anyway.

Me too Gav.
Live on telly too IIRC including the bit when they wouldn't let in Tony Brown.

[Cardiff Dave]

Like the re-introduction of the tented area at Rodders btw. Hope the fridges work now and the cans of beer are adequately cooled.

[Cardiff Dave]

Lyn the Lip has come out with yet another example of how not to inspire confidence in him as a coach/DoR:

"European Challenge Cup: Lyn Jones cannot explain Dragons success.

Newport Gwent Dragons boss Lyn Jones admits he "hasn't got a clue" why European competition brings the best out of his side.

Dragons have often been the lowest-ranking of Wales' four professional teams.

But they completed a double over French side Pau to finish top of European Challenge Cup Pool Two, having reached last season's semi-finals.

"I haven't got a clue. I just don't know how we do it," said Jones."


How about trying to attribute it to the sheer hard work and determination of the players in training, and the tireless work of the coaches, in trying to improve and grow as a group. Saying he has no clue suggests he doesn't have any confidence in the coaching his team do with the players, the structures in place or any confidence in the players themselves! Sounds like finger in the air stuff to me. At least he could say something like 'the hard work is paying off'.

Would it be fair to suggest that as Lyn the Lip has admitted that he doesn't know how the Drags win, he doesn't know how they lose either?

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