Yes 53% - No 44% ....Can Sturgeon take advantage and gain independence for Scotland ??

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Amazing polling figures from Ipsos-Mori (Poller was closest to the result in 2014)....Show a big 9% lead for those that want independence....

All time high !!!!

The question is how does Sturgeon manipulate another vote sooner rather than later to take advantage ??

Let's be honest this SNP bubble won't last !!!!!...........

Much food for thought for the little ball-breaker and her army..............

These figures must be both uplifting and depressing at the same time !!!.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:35 pm

Positive patriotism is a force of good....Uniting people in the purpose of making their Country better....

Thank goodness there are people who are proud of where they come from..

by Rowley Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:41 pm

I can only dream of the day I take enough pride in where I come from to emigrate Truss.

by TopHat24/7 Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:49 pm

Rowley wrote:I’m not a particularly nationalist person, I think the idea of taking pride in something as arbitrary as where you fell out of a fanny is, as George Carlin put it, as ridiculous as taking pride in being 6ft 1. However I could only really understand this desire for independence if there was demonstrable evidence things would be better by pursuing this route. Reading this thread there appears to be little evidence to support such a theory. From what I can gather the health service and education system are not particularly great, and there appears to be an £8billion gap in the SNP’s maths nobody seems willing to acknowledge. Throw into this no coherent line about what currency will be used post independence, no real idea about what businesses and employers would leave the country as a consequence of a yes vote and it does kind of strike me as independence for the sake of it rather than on the back of sound economic reasoning.

Oh dear. Such common sense and logic has absolutely no place on this thread or in independence discussions (particularly with jingoistic Scots).

by TopHat24/7 Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:50 pm

Rowley wrote:I can only dream of the day I take enough pride in where I come from to emigrate Truss.

Yes 53% - No 44% ....Can Sturgeon take advantage and gain independence for Scotland ?? - Page 5 3933776953

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:54 pm

"The greatest form of love is sacrifice"..

I'm one helluva guy... Wink

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:16 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:"The greatest form of love is sacrifice"..

I'm one helluva guy...

The gift you gave really cannot be described in words.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:16 pm

Yep...

by CaledonianCraig Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:41 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling? Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.

And is the situation any better in England? This suggests not:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949

I am not saying everything is hunky-dory by the way but like I said earlier the alternatives fill me with even less confidence.

The ones performing better, you mean?

Can you explain or justify your response? (TIP: don't use numbers or percentages, you're really struggling there lad)

As Super has pointed out, SNP performance on health and education are far worse north of the border than the Tory/Lab/LD or whatever ones south of the border.

Is there need first for this? We have a posters viewpoint that this is the case - first let the poster provide evidence to back up their claim.

As for this thing about taking pride out of where you entered the world then that applies to the UK as well. As illustrated all over the world countries have achieved independence and not come to regret it and many of those have lesser selling points than Scotland to support itself.

We are never going to agree here but one thing is certain - this question of independence isn't going away anytime soon.

by GSC Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:58 pm

I don't doubt Scotland could succeed. I doubt the SNP are competent enough to pull it off

by **superflyweight** Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:07 pm

Some links Fly wanted in about 50 separate spoiler boxes, the absolute nerd :

by **superflyweight** Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:00 pm

Thanks dolphin you sexy water based bitch.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:51 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling? Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.

And is the situation any better in England? This suggests not:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949

I am not saying everything is hunky-dory by the way but like I said earlier the alternatives fill me with even less confidence.

The ones performing better, you mean?

Can you explain or justify your response? (TIP: don't use numbers or percentages, you're really struggling there lad)

As Super has pointed out, SNP performance on health and education are far worse north of the border than the Tory/Lab/LD or whatever ones south of the border.

Is there need first for this? We have a posters viewpoint that this is the case - first let the poster provide evidence to back up their claim.

What are you talking about you muppet?? How can you ask other's to evidence/justify their positions/claims when you won't yourself?

As Pr4wn says, try and actually contribute something to the debate. At the moment you're doing the forum equivalent of a 5 year old child saying something and then covering their eyes and ears going "nah nah nah nah nah nah".

Which, frankly, is about the maturity level of most indepdence debates with Scots that rely on blind ignorance & jingoism with a total absence of rational thought or intelligence.

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:01 am

A warning to both sides of the debate. Keep it constructive and keep it positive please. Try to engage in debate rather than point-scoring.

Last chance.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:42 am

Predicatable.

by **superflyweight** Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:47 am

Worth keeping this thread open as I'd like to see CC's response to the fact that I'm not just making stuff up.

I'm guessing it will be something along the lines of "what about Westminster" which is actually remarkably close to the argument presented by the SNP hierarchy.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:58 am

More likely I'll get banned than the thread getting closed, Super, so nothing to spoil your entertainment.... Smile

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:09 am

As I said, it's to both sides. Snide comments don't help, Toppy.

The debate was a very good one until both sides started sniping, there's just no need for it. I'd prefer to keep this thread open.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:19 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:More likely I'll get banned than the thread getting closed, Super, so nothing to spoil your entertainment....

Wouldn't worry.....If we've learned something on these boards...It's that you're bullet proof.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:23 am

Even for you, that's possibly the most ironic thing you've ever written.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:31 am

Being honest Toppy....To me you're no different than Champagne Socialist.........

Just how I see it............Happy for you to disagree.....

I don't want to see you banned I have no problem with you.... but your constant one line mocking of posters does wear thin at times..

by CaledonianCraig Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:33 am

Well superflyweight it is only fair to look at Westminster's achievements is it not? If there are failings across the UK in many areas it is hardly a damning call to stay in the union is it? I do not claim to be an expert on all things pertained to the government but a rosy picture it is not.

You feel staying in the union is best for Scotland others don't. We won'the agree on this but as I have said time and again the question of independence won't go away whilst support for it has been increasing year on year virtually since the 1980s.

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:34 am

As opposed to a three-line mocking.

Cut it out. Stay on topic.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:35 am

It's not mocking......It's an opinion..

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:49 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well superflyweight it is only fair to look at Westminster's achievements is it not? If there are failings across the UK in many areas it is hardly a damning call to stay in the union is it? I do not claim to be an expert on all things pertained to the government but a rosy picture it is not.

You feel staying in the union is best for Scotland others don't. We won'the agree on this but as I have said time and again the question of independence won't go away whilst support for it has been increasing year on year virtually since the 1980s.

As you can see by where I'm from, I don't really have anything at stake in this debate.

During the referendum I was a staunch supporter of the "No" campaign. I just couldn't see why any Scot would want independence for any reason other than romanticised patriotism.

Now, with the election of the Tories, things have changed for me. Scotland is mainly a left-wing place, it's just the way it is. It must be unbelievably frustrating for voters up there to know that the vast, vast majority of the voted for the opposite of what they've ended up with. These Tories are very right wing, far more so than Major.

While I concede that the SNP's economic case for independence is far from flawless, it's not just about economics. It's about national pride and the way that Scots feel about their country.

I come from a place that has changed immeasurably over the last 30 years. My nan worked in fields picking Jersey Royal potatoes and my dad was a mechanic. Jersey was a place with our own culture, beautiful buildings, lots of history and a real individual feel. It was governed by those that genuinely cared about the people that live here. Now, with the proliferation of the finance industry and the explosion in our population, particularly the number of rich Brits that have come here, it no longer feels like Jersey any more. Fewer than 50% of the people that live in Jersey were born here. We're now governed by those that don't care about culture or the most needy in society. All they care about is money. And the level of political apathy is what's caused it.

If I had some kind of God-like power now where I could decide Jersey's future, I'd remove the finance industry from here completely and I'd go back to Jersey making money from more honest means. Yes, Jersey would probably be less affluent as a result but that's not the point.

Rant over, but I hope you understand where I'm going with this Smile

by **superflyweight** Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:53 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well superflyweight it is only fair to look at Westminster's achievements is it not? If there are failings across the UK in many areas it is hardly a damning call to stay in the union is it? I do not claim to be an expert on all things pertained to the government but a rosy picture it is not.

You feel staying in the union is best for Scotland others don't. We won'the agree on this but as I have said time and again the question of independence won't go away whilst support for it has been increasing year on year virtually since the 1980s.

But the problem is that the SNP is performing badly in certain areas for which it has responsibility and that performance has been shown to be comparatively worse than in RUK. One of the central arguments of the independence movement is how bad things are under Westminster and it's not an argument that makes a whole lot of sense when it can be empirically demonstrated that the SNP is underperforming by comparison.

As to our difference of opinion, I actually agree with you. Scotland could be a successful independent country, but until someone provides a clear and sensible economic reason for independence and demonstrates some competence for governance, I'm not voting to break up what has been a very successful union.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:53 am

https://youtu.be/-G4Y8JtT1j0

Improve your moods

by Rowley Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:54 am

As I alluded to earlier I still don't particularly get the argument for independence. It appears both Westminster and the SNP make a bit of a dogs dinner over delivering actual services and government to Scotland. However if you go the independence route you also have to contend with uncertainty over your currency, an unnamed but potentially large number of businesses who would choose to move their operations out of the country as well as tough decisions to be made in terms of the countries standing in Europe, their immigration policy etc. Seems one hell of a risk to take at a time when globally we are still finding our way out of one of the most horrific financial meltdowns in history.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:56 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Being honest Toppy....To me you're no different than Champagne Socialist.........

Just how I see it............Happy for you to disagree.....

I don't want to see you banned I have no problem with you.... but your constant one line mocking of posters does wear thin at times..

CS? You mean your old pet that got booted off the boards? You've been a thousand times worse than me and you're still here. You were the most complained about poster (including CS and Az!!!) during my brief tenure as Mod and have derailed more threads and slung more abuse than anyone else I've ever seen on v2.

On topic: Subject of Independence will never go away as there will always be people too stupid or too ignorant to see beyond the colour & pattern of a flag they swear blind faith to.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:57 am

We'll agree to disagree Topper... thumbsup

by Rowley Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:01 am

I forget you were a mod Toppy. That is like when Julia Roberts married that country singer. You just look back on it as how in the name of all that is holy did that ever happen!

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:02 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Being honest Toppy....To me you're no different than Champagne Socialist.........

Just how I see it............Happy for you to disagree.....

I don't want to see you banned I have no problem with you.... but your constant one line mocking of posters does wear thin at times..

CS? You mean your old pet that got booted off the boards? You've been a thousand times worse than me and you're still here. You were the most complained about poster (including CS and Az!!!) during my brief tenure as Mod and have derailed more threads and slung more abuse than anyone else I've ever seen on v2.

On topic: Subject of Independence will never go away as there will always be people too stupid or too ignorant to see beyond the colour & pattern of a flag they swear blind faith to.

It's a farm more complicated argument than that and you know it.

Yes there will be some blind patriots there but they certainly don't form the majority of the yes campaign.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:04 am

Rowley wrote:I forget you were a mod Toppy. That is like when Julia Roberts married that country singer. You just look back on it as how in the name of all that is holy did that ever happen!

It's kind of why I won't write Fury off against Wlad....... Cool

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:07 am

Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Being honest Toppy....To me you're no different than Champagne Socialist.........

Just how I see it............Happy for you to disagree.....

I don't want to see you banned I have no problem with you.... but your constant one line mocking of posters does wear thin at times..

CS? You mean your old pet that got booted off the boards? You've been a thousand times worse than me and you're still here. You were the most complained about poster (including CS and Az!!!) during my brief tenure as Mod and have derailed more threads and slung more abuse than anyone else I've ever seen on v2.

On topic: Subject of Independence will never go away as there will always be people too stupid or too ignorant to see beyond the colour & pattern of a flag they swear blind faith to.

It's a farm more complicated argument than that and you know it.

Yes there will be some blind patriots there but they certainly don't form the majority of the yes campaign.

I actually disagree, on the basis that I've never seen 1 rational sustainable arugment presented beyond that (just look at CC throughout this thread, he hasn't been able to offer up anything).

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:07 am

Rowley wrote:I forget you were a mod Toppy. That is like when Julia Roberts married that country singer. You just look back on it as how in the name of all that is holy did that ever happen!

A desperation move all round, I assure you......

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:15 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Being honest Toppy....To me you're no different than Champagne Socialist.........

Just how I see it............Happy for you to disagree.....

I don't want to see you banned I have no problem with you.... but your constant one line mocking of posters does wear thin at times..

CS? You mean your old pet that got booted off the boards? You've been a thousand times worse than me and you're still here. You were the most complained about poster (including CS and Az!!!) during my brief tenure as Mod and have derailed more threads and slung more abuse than anyone else I've ever seen on v2.

On topic: Subject of Independence will never go away as there will always be people too stupid or too ignorant to see beyond the colour & pattern of a flag they swear blind faith to.

It's a farm more complicated argument than that and you know it.

Yes there will be some blind patriots there but they certainly don't form the majority of the yes campaign.

I actually disagree, on the basis that I've never seen 1 rational sustainable arugment presented beyond that (just look at CC throughout this thread, he hasn't been able to offer up anything).

Feeling politically disenfranchised from your own government is a perfectly rational reason to long for independence.

Not everything is about economics, Toppy.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:29 am

They did a poll containing the most popular reasons why Scots would be voting Yes to independence....

1. They didn't feel British.......
2. They want the Government they choose...
3. Wanted more governing powers taken away from Westminster
4. They thought it would lead to more jobs...
5. They believe that Scotland has the resources and finances to go alone...
6. They believed wages would be better.....
7. They wanted "their" oil in the North sea.....instead of revenue going to westminster..
8. They believed that Scotland and England were too opposed in their views....
9. They were anti nuclear weapons....
10. Believed Scotland will change over the next few years and by voting No they would have less control over the changes

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:36 am

Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Being honest Toppy....To me you're no different than Champagne Socialist.........

Just how I see it............Happy for you to disagree.....

I don't want to see you banned I have no problem with you.... but your constant one line mocking of posters does wear thin at times..

CS? You mean your old pet that got booted off the boards? You've been a thousand times worse than me and you're still here. You were the most complained about poster (including CS and Az!!!) during my brief tenure as Mod and have derailed more threads and slung more abuse than anyone else I've ever seen on v2.

On topic: Subject of Independence will never go away as there will always be people too stupid or too ignorant to see beyond the colour & pattern of a flag they swear blind faith to.

It's a farm more complicated argument than that and you know it.

Yes there will be some blind patriots there but they certainly don't form the majority of the yes campaign.

I actually disagree, on the basis that I've never seen 1 rational sustainable arugment presented beyond that (just look at CC throughout this thread, he hasn't been able to offer up anything).

Feeling politically disenfranchised from your own government is a perfectly rational reason to long for independence.

Not everything is about economics, Toppy.

Tell that to someone with no means to support themselves.

All very well draping yourself in the saltire, until that's your only way to clothe and shelter yourself.

Disenfranchisement is not logial. It's subjective and an emotional reaction.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:41 am

I didn't realise that Scotland's ability to sustain themselves independently was an open and shut case..

by SecretFly Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:41 am

Revolutions are subjective.
Wars are subjective.
The world moves on emotion.

The politicians always pay the price when they try to argue the contrary and pretend its all an orderly and predicted procession through time.
It ain't - and the powerlessness of borders, and the tensions now created as refugees cross them, is an example whereby logic and objectivity begin to look very fragile amongst all the emotion and subjective distrust between supposed united peoples of Europe.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:43 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They did a poll containing the most popular reasons why Scots would be voting Yes to independence....

1. They didn't feel British....... Emotive and not based on rationale or logic, albeit understandable.
2. They want the Government they choose... Ditto above
3. Wanted more governing powers taken away from Westminster Fair, though not logical given SNP performance on what HAS been devolved already.
4. They thought it would lead to more jobs... How? No logic. Financial services are major employers and will be leaving E'boro. SNP also campaigned for removal of Trident (1000s of jobs) and reducation in military (again 1000s Scots in armed services)
5. They believe that Scotland has the resources and finances to go alone... Stupidity. Resources are dwindling and prices were inflated at the time of referendum, now look what's happened. Finances - they tried buying a seat at the big boy table and failed spectacularly, need UK tax payers to bail them out, not something that could've been achieved by Scotland alone. Also ditto comment above re jobs and FS sector.
6. They believed wages would be better..... Ditto multiple above, nonesense sans logic
7. They wanted "their" oil in the North sea.....instead of revenue going to westminster.. Totally understandable, however not something they could control as determined by international rules & regs. Also see comments above re resources
8. They believed that Scotland and England were too opposed in their views....
9. They were anti nuclear weapons.... See above
10. Believed Scotland will change over the next few years and by voting No they would have less control over the changes ?

Responding to the reasons, not directly at/to you (i.e. don't see this as an attack).

by **superflyweight** Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:45 am

I could argue that I feel disenfranchised from the Scottish government. Never voted for the SNP and based on performance I don't think I'll be voting for them next time out, but they've been in power for 8 years and that won't change for at least another 6 years (assuming that the SNP win in 2016). That's 14 years of being governed by a party which don't represent my views.

Can I claim independence from Scotland or should I go on exercising my democratic right to vote in the hope that my choice is eventually victorious?

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:48 am

Yes, and life does not purely run on logic. Look at Truss's list of reasons.

Feeling disenfranchised is perfectly logical anyway. Not wanting nuclear weapons, for example, is a legitimate reason.

Saying that a population that wishes to elect their own government is being illogical is extremely patronizing.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:57 am

Pr4wn wrote:Yes, and life does not purely run on logic. Look at Truss's list of reasons.

Feeling disenfranchised is perfectly logical anyway. Not wanting nuclear weapons, for example, is a legitimate reason.

Saying that a population that wishes to elect their own government is being illogical is extremely patronizing.

Wanting to be governed by someone that'll do a worse job and leave you worse off is indeed illogical. It's rose-tinting at its finest......

by CaledonianCraig Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:58 am

Rowley I would say the financial climate was far worse for Malta. Their country had been devastated by Nazi bombing yet not longer after it became independent and are far from struggling after 50 years of independence. And I am certain that Scotland is far more capable of sustaining itself financially.

by **superflyweight** Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:59 am

Pr4wn wrote:Yes, and life does not purely run on logic. Look at Truss's list of reasons.

Feeling disenfranchised is perfectly logical anyway. Not wanting nuclear weapons, for example, is a legitimate reason.

Saying that a population that wishes to elect their own government is being illogical is extremely patronizing.

It depends on the reason.

You have to consider this in context. Scottish independence is essentially about Scotland becoming independent from what has been a very prosperous and successful union from which both parties have undeniably benefitted and through which the Scottish people has a substantial ability to exercise it's democratic rights (more than anyone else in the UK).

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single comparable example of people exercising their right to self-determination (although Catalonia, the Basque country and Quebec have all given it a go) from such a prosperous starting point.

As I said above, if my country wants to remove itself from a very successful political and economic union, I want someone to give me a bloody good reason for doing so.

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:01 pm

No it isn't! Who is to say that the Tories are any better than anybody else?

Sure, you clearly think so but others might not.

Personally, I think that any party that lets such an incompetent as Iain Duncan Smith anywhere near power needs to look at themselves. The Scots simply want to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs. That's not rose-tinted, illogical or wrong.

In fact, it's perfectly logical.

by **Pr4wn** Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:06 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Yes, and life does not purely run on logic. Look at Truss's list of reasons.

Feeling disenfranchised is perfectly logical anyway. Not wanting nuclear weapons, for example, is a legitimate reason.

Saying that a population that wishes to elect their own government is being illogical is extremely patronizing.

It depends on the reason.

You have to consider this in context. Scottish independence is essentially about Scotland becoming independent from what has been a very prosperous and successful union from which both parties have undeniably benefitted and through which the Scottish people has a substantial ability to exercise it's democratic rights (more than anyone else in the UK).

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single comparable example of people exercising their right to self-determination (although Catalonia, the Basque country and Quebec have all given it a go) from such a prosperous starting point.

As I said above, if my country wants to remove itself from a very successful political and economic union, I want someone to give me a bloody good reason for doing so.

Completely agree with you and that's what this debate is all about.

Prosperity is one thing but how you achieve said prosperity is something else entirely. If I was Scottish and confident that an independent Scotland could achieve prosperity without shagging the poor, I'd be for it.

by Duty281 Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:06 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Rowley I would say the financial climate was far worse for Malta. Their country had been devastated by Nazi bombing yet not longer after it became independent and are far from struggling after 50 years of independence. And I am certain that Scotland is far more capable of sustaining itself financially.

I believe that Britain gave large amounts of money to Malta for around 10-15 years after they gained independence.

And it took 19 years after the Second World War before Malta did become indepedent.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:10 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Rowley I would say the financial climate was far worse for Malta. Their country had been devastated by Nazi bombing yet not longer after it became independent and are far from struggling after 50 years of independence. And I am certain that Scotland is far more capable of sustaining itself financially.

A country with a population of c.300k (when independent)? Yeh, great example.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:14 pm

Pr4wn wrote:No it isn't! Who is to say that the Tories are any better than anybody else?

Sure, you clearly think so but others might not.

Personally, I think that any party that lets such an incompetent as Iain Duncan Smith anywhere near power needs to look at themselves. The Scots simply want to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs. That's not rose-tinted, illogical or wrong.

In fact, it's perfectly logical.

As Super has relentlessly pointed out, on the two major devolved powers of health and education, SNP performance north of the border has been significantly worse than Lab/LD/Con performance south of it.

Saying you'd prefer to be run by the person actively doing the worse job on the same issue off the same footing is not logical. Or are you saying that Scots wanting " to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs" is their way of saying their thick unhealthy slobs who don't care about education and healthcare.....?? Because that seems to be the only way you could rationalise poor performance with shared beliefs/interests.

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