World Cup seedings revisited

First topic message reminder :

Just had a bit of a light bulb moment thought I'd go to the boards for some  coroborry.

I don't want to start a spitting fight here, so please take this in the inquisitive vein its intended!

The Pool of Death is suddenly looking less deadly. A lot of Welsh posters here and elsewhere seem a bit dejected after appearing to lose two world class players in the warmup.

But, If a Wales team denuded of a bunch of front liners goes out of this pool limply,  then were the seedings actually valid?

Is the big Welsh problem a lack of a bit of depth?  Undoubted world beaters at full strength, but maybe the drop to the dirt trackers is a bit precipitous?

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Which players are you referring to? I admit the Welsh connections to guys like Cuthbert, Francis and Faletau are weak, but besides that there are NO English/foreign players in the squad. Even Anscombe has been omitted...

from a quick check and just from birth alone. So 11 out of 31 were born outside of Wales.

Tonga (1)

Faletau

Australia (1)

King

England (9)

Charteris, Lydiate, Ball, North, Francis, Cuthbert, Jarvis, Amos, Morgan. You could have added JD2 if he was fit also.

Most of those seem Welsh schooled so fine with me but hey ho. Anscombe is NZ but not yet with the squad.

We're already aware of where they were born. But I was getting at how are they not Welsh? Surely just your birthplace doesn't define that. I think it's a petty argument.

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Which players are you referring to? I admit the Welsh connections to guys like Cuthbert, Francis and Faletau are weak, but besides that there are NO English/foreign players in the squad. Even Anscombe has been omitted...

from a quick check and just from birth alone. So 11 out of 31 were born outside of Wales.

Tonga (1)

Faletau

Australia (1)

King

England (9)

Charteris, Lydiate, Ball, North, Francis, Cuthbert, Jarvis, Amos, Morgan. You could have added JD2 if he was fit also.

Most of those seem Welsh schooled so fine with me but hey ho. Anscombe is NZ but not yet with the squad.

We're already aware of where they were born. But I was getting at how are they not Welsh? Surely just your birthplace doesn't define that. I think it's a petty argument.

I did say I was ok with them given seemed to be most were welsh schooled.

beshocked wrote:Fanster I am saying that Welsh fans have to acknowledge the English connection because it's there.

Yes I guess you could say it's comparable to NZ's connection with the pacific islands.

mikey dragon the point is that more of your players have connection with England than any other country - not surprising but something you fail to acknowledge. Also if Wales didn't take players like Moriarty and Francis from English clubs who helped develop them it wouldn't come up as much.

My initial point was that Wales have been trying to encourage the likes of Francis and Moriarty to play for them because of lack of strength in depth.

You're quite clearly avoiding the questions put across to you, which you have been doing all afternoon. I'm still trying understand what you mean by English connection and what implications it has? Only then can I answer any questions you may have. Until then you're just going to repeating your usual 360 guff.

I agree with your point on Francis, I always have. There is no doubt there. With Moriarty you are refusing to acknowledge that he began his rugby development long before getting an offer from Gloucester academy. He has always had a home in Swansea and was always likely to choose Wales. I'm grateful to England rugby for continuing his development but surely you can't believe he is English just because he happened to be born there when his Welsh international father was playing rugby league (his living) in England?! It's a bonkers perspective.

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Which players are you referring to? I admit the Welsh connections to guys like Cuthbert, Francis and Faletau are weak, but besides that there are NO English/foreign players in the squad. Even Anscombe has been omitted...

from a quick check and just from birth alone. So 11 out of 31 were born outside of Wales.

Tonga (1)

Faletau

Australia (1)

King

England (9)

Charteris, Lydiate, Ball, North, Francis, Cuthbert, Jarvis, Amos, Morgan. You could have added JD2 if he was fit also.

Most of those seem Welsh schooled so fine with me but hey ho. Anscombe is NZ but not yet with the squad.

We're already aware of where they were born. But I was getting at how are they not Welsh? Surely just your birthplace doesn't define that. I think it's a petty argument.

I did say I was ok with them given seemed to be most were welsh schooled.

Yeah, but the original question wasn't directed at you, yet you responded to it by giving information that we were already aware of.

anyhow half of those players I highlighted seem to have mixed parents, mixed upbringings.... i.e. they're as much Welsh as they are English. I assume if you saw the players hypothetically such as North, Cuthbert, Warburton, Ball, Francis etc in England colours you wouldn't have a problem either as it goes both ways right?

I'm sure you can be torn between the two. Warburton has clearly stated he was torn but once he got junior caps for Wales he said he decided that was where he would stay.

Welsh yes, English, perhaps yes too. Answer is not simply black or white for sure.

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Which players are you referring to? I admit the Welsh connections to guys like Cuthbert, Francis and Faletau are weak, but besides that there are NO English/foreign players in the squad. Even Anscombe has been omitted...

from a quick check and just from birth alone. So 11 out of 31 were born outside of Wales.

Tonga (1)

Faletau

Australia (1)

King

England (9)

Charteris, Lydiate, Ball, North, Francis, Cuthbert, Jarvis, Amos, Morgan. You could have added JD2 if he was fit also.

Most of those seem Welsh schooled so fine with me but hey ho. Anscombe is NZ but not yet with the squad.

We're already aware of where they were born. But I was getting at how are they not Welsh? Surely just your birthplace doesn't define that. I think it's a petty argument.

I did say I was ok with them given seemed to be most were welsh schooled.

Yeah, but the original question wasn't directed at you, yet you responded to it by giving information that we were already aware of.

Sorry, when I commented it was in reply to rainbow warrior, who appeared to be talking about Cuthbert, Francis etc, which is who I meant

English connection - born in England or English parent etc. English qualified.

You might think oh it doesn't matter. Well yes it does because they could play for England. Being born somewhere gives you that right.

Moriarty always likely to pick Wales? That's why he plays for an English club? That's why he played for the England U18s and U20s? Born in England and represented England at junior level.

If he wanted to play for Wales then why not play for a Welsh region and the Welsh age groups?

beshocked wrote:
If he wanted to play for Wales then why not play for a Welsh region and the Welsh age groups?

Because he lived in England. However Ross Moriarty is quite clearly Welsh with an English connection. Greig Tonks played age group rugby for England, does not make him English. I think Tim Visser did too. (Admittedly they are not Scottish either ). while Martin Johnson ois not a Kiwi.


Ball however is an Englishman with a Welsh connection, while Francis is an out and out Yorkie with a rather tenuous Welsh connection - but like all the best Yorkies he ensures he profits from any and all connections.

But you know what, all countries have benefited to some degree from flexible nationality.

Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:
If he wanted to play for Wales then why not play for a Welsh region and the Welsh age groups?

Because he lived in England. However Ross Moriarty is quite clearly Welsh with an English connection. Greig Tonks played age group rugby for England, does not make him English. I think Tim Visser did too. (Admittedly they are not Scottish either ). while Martin Johnson ois not a Kiwi.


Ball however is an Englishman with a Welsh connection, while Francis is an out and out Yorkie with a rather tenuous Welsh connection - but like all the best Yorkies he ensures he profits from any and all connections.

But you know what, all countries have benefited to some degree from flexible nationality.

Exactly. And in the big picture, not sure this is a very big deal for us Brits. In a United Kingdom, which is one country, this is what happens. More freedom of movement, more mixed roots, more mixed marriages, a more homogeneous population. Pick someone to play for, given some form of solid connection, and have at it.

goneagain wrote:Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

Seems to have drifted away from the topic! Who care who someone plays for? They make a choice and stick with it.mits not like you can turn out for a different team every week.

beshocked wrote:English connection - born in England or English parent etc. English qualified.

You might think oh it doesn't matter. Well yes it does because they could play for England. Being born somewhere gives you that right.

Moriarty always likely to pick Wales? That's why he plays for an English club? That's why he played for the England U18s and U20s? Born in England and represented England at junior level.

If he wanted to play for Wales then why not play for a Welsh region and the Welsh age groups?

Ah right. So an English connection, ergo just qualified to play for England under the current criteria yet they aren't actually English like you keep claiming? Glad that's been cleared up. I guess they had a strong Welsh link as well though .

It matters to an extent, as it is the current laws that lay out this criteria. Bit of a tenuous link in some instances is but I know you like to keep claiming other nations players beshocked, as you have done already (look at the list I provided). I don't think I ever claimed that it did not matter - I'm merely trying to reach out to you as you have it in for Wales.

Beshocked it's a no-brainer. His father the Wales capped international was working for Gloucester RFC (see Thomas Young now and his daddy at Wasps, or Farrell junior and senior). Ross got the opportunity to attend Hartpury College whom are a well known feeder to Gloucester, and at age 17 left Morriston Comp in Wales to take up the offer. During his time in Wales (his home) he had stints with Swansea City FC U11s, and then in rugby there is Swansea Schools, West Wales Schools and the Ospreys academy which lead to him sticking to the oval ball . People often move around for college, work and university; if you didn't know that then you must be living in a cave. His pathway for a career as a professional rugby player was carved out - I guess the England academy call-ups were a bonus and would help him with his on-going development. Playing for England at that level does not tie you to England under any criteria. You can sit here all night and try to argue that he is English some how, but I will just have to again relay these simple facts to you which disprove that.

As explained above he did play in Wales for Wales age grade teams. I guess he also did want to follow in his father and uncle's footsteps too, hence his Wales caps. I hope this clears all that up for you.

goneagain wrote:Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

Dong hasn't done anything. It was beshocked dragging it off topic and bringing in his bizarre topic as per usual. He has done it several times in the past couple of weeks.

mikey_dragon wrote:

goneagain wrote:Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

Dong hasn't done anything. It was beshocked dragging it off topic and bringing in his bizarre topic as per usual. He has done it several times in the past couple of weeks.

i

Look, who gives a dingos dinkie if some bloke plays for the wrong team? Whether Welsh or English or a guy they've imported just for the task? Once you've made your bed you lie in it and that's the whole story.

fa0019 wrote:anyhow half of those players I highlighted seem to have mixed parents, mixed upbringings.... i.e. they're as much Welsh as they are English. I assume if you saw the players hypothetically such as North, Cuthbert, Warburton, Ball, Francis etc in England colours you wouldn't have a problem either as it goes both ways right?

I'm sure you can be torn between the two. Warburton has clearly stated he was torn but once he got junior caps for Wales he said he decided that was where he would stay.

Welsh yes, English, perhaps yes too. Answer is not simply black or white for sure.

I wouldn't have a problem no, as I'm not a bigot. If North, Cuthbert and Warburton chose England though I'd be pretty annoyed seeing as it was Wales that made them into professional players. Good ones at that.

I've been a Wales supporter for 60 years, basically because I was born and brought up in Cardiff, played rugby here and in the Valleys, and watched Cardiff RFC regularly from 1955 onwards.

I'd guess a lot of people are like that - supporting the team of the country where they played and grew up, and especially supporting their town team.

It doesn't really have anything to do with grandparents and ancestry.  My family tree is a mixture of Welsh, English, Irish and Scots - much the same as millions of other people in Britain, including rugby players.

I've no patience with Wales and England fans who have starry-eyed views of their teams linked to fantasies about 'the Welsh' or 'the English'.

Is it just an Anglo-Welsh thing?

Mikey dragon

They could play for England. Something you cannot ignore.

Not saying I have an issue seeing the likes of North and Warburton in Welsh colours. I am not claiming they should play for England (just saying they could). They are Welsh and see themselves as Welsh but you cannot ignore the English connection, even if they were only born there. Welsh but EQ (being born somewhere is a strong link IMO).

The English connection is there.

Francis has been picked because of a lack of strength in depth in Wales at TH - that's obvious. I guess that's where it goes back to. Something you have to acknowledge.

Wales have used their connections with England to help with their strength in depth issues.

As for Moriarty whether you see him as Welsh or not he's been developed primarily by the English system. You cannot claim that he doesn't have a connection to England even if he does indeed see himself as Welsh.

The connection is largely one sided - you have many english born Welsh players but not Welsh born English in the English side - not surprising.

Do you think that's partly down to the fact that Wales have had a better process of identifying talent who are dual qualified and ensured that they got in early though beshocked? There's not many of the list of Welsh with English connections that England wouldn't like to have in at least the extended squad.

Pot Hale wrote:Is it just an Anglo-Welsh thing?

I mentioned a couple of 'scots' but nobody was interested. Wasn't that Heaslip fella born in Israel?

Not really 7.5.

The bulk of the "players with English connections" grew up in Wales and the Welsh system. they are Welsh but due to the fact we are a small Island that is actually a single country they happened to be born in England.

Sure Scarlets did a good job in spotting Ball over in Aus, while Francis made the call to the Welsh to point out his gran was born on a Welsh train station.

Well they appear to see these players and cap them early just in case I think, North, Cuthbert, Francis, Moriarty. They're just a bit smarter here I think. You could argue the toss over whether they would have chosen England but a lot of people like to feel wanted and it'll put Wales in the driving seat as it did with Francis. Sometimes it doesn't come off as with Morgan but in a lot of cases I think England are 2nd to the punch.

beshocked wrote:Mikey dragon

They could play for England. Something you cannot ignore.

Not saying I have an issue seeing the likes of North and Warburton in Welsh colours. I am not claiming they should play for England (just saying they could). They are Welsh and see themselves as Welsh but you cannot ignore the English connection, even if they were only born there. Welsh but EQ (being born somewhere is a strong link IMO).

The English connection is there.

Francis has been picked because of a lack of strength in depth in Wales at TH - that's obvious. I guess that's where it goes back to. Something you have to acknowledge.

Wales have used their connections with England to help with their strength in depth issues.

As for Moriarty whether you see him as Welsh or not he's been developed primarily by the English system. You cannot claim that he doesn't have a connection to England even if he does indeed see himself as Welsh.

The connection is largely one sided - you have many english born Welsh players but not Welsh born English in the English side - not surprising.

Yes that's because of the criteria surrounding the eligibility laws. It's something we can ignore because it is now absolutely irrelevant.

Clearly you do have issues with it because you always bring it onto subjects which are not even discussing the eligibility topic. Yes true they must surely see themselves as Welsh, I don't think there is any doubting that? Yes as I've stated above we can ignore it because it was rendered irrelevant donkey years ago by the players.

Yes on Francis. We 'poached' him.

What connections? Does Sean Edwards know the right people?

I see him as Welsh, I mean, he's never lost his Swansea accent... It's great that England helped his development, but I think he would have made it anyway if he stayed at the Ospreys academy. When they lost Moriarty they took on Mike Ruddock's sons, who went on to play for Ireland U20s...

I don't see why you're obsessed with birth place. If you happened to have a military daddy stationed in Qatar, and ended up being born there, would that always be your nationality? If not then I don't see the point you keep trying to make.

LondonTiger wrote:Not  really 7.5.

The bulk of the "players with English connections" grew up in Wales and the Welsh system. they are Welsh but due to the fact we are a small Island that is actually a single country they happened to be born in England.

Sure Scarlets did a good job in spotting Ball over in Aus, while Francis made the call to the Welsh to point out his gran was born on a Welsh train station.

Christ, is that true?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well they appear to see these players and cap them early just in case I think, North, Cuthbert, Francis, Moriarty. They're just a bit smarter here I think. You could argue the toss over whether they would have chosen England but a lot of people like to feel wanted and it'll put Wales in the driving seat as it did with Francis. Sometimes it doesn't come off as with Morgan but in a lot of cases I think England are 2nd to the punch.

It's a trend among nations with low numbers in their playing base. Scotland and Italy have done it a lot in recent years. I don't think we are renowned for it because Wales in recent years have only 'poached' Anscombe, Ball and Francis. Arguably not Moriarty despite the fact England did us a fabour with his professional development. Also arguably not Cuthbert because he was either amateur or just semi-pro before Cardiff spotted him, and maybe it was that which enticed him to attend Cardiff university. North started out at Anglesey U8's (just a light hearted guess) and went on to play for Llandovery College, Scarlets and Wales U16 /U18 academies. His selection for team Wales was based on his form at the Scarlets in the pro12 - I remember watching his first game for them years ago and thinking "where the hell did we unearth this gem?" When not injured he has been a mainstay in team Wales ever since his first cap.

Scotland's an interesting case. Pretty much 1/2 the team in the starting 15 against France were imported. Not sure the issue as great anywhere else in the UK.

That was Andy Robinson's era. Tried to 'poach' all and sundry .

mikey_dragon wrote:

goneagain wrote:Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

Dong hasn't done anything. It was beshocked dragging it off topic and bringing in his bizarre topic as per usual. He has done it several times in the past couple of weeks.

I am surprised he hasn't brought up our losing to Japan during the Lions tour quote yet. He always likes to keep dropping that one in.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you think that's partly down to the fact that Wales have had a better process of identifying talent who are dual qualified and ensured that they got in early though beshocked? There's not many of the list of Welsh with English connections that England wouldn't like to have in at least the extended squad.

They(the English RFU) got in and snatched the Vinipola's off us before we could get them though.

By then the Vunipolas only qualified for England. Suppose you could say they contacted Morgan in good time before he qualified for Wales and convinced him into the fold and back to England. They need to improve identifying players though that have the choice.

No 7&1/2 wrote:By then the Vunipolas only qualified for England. Suppose you could say they contacted Morgan in good time before he qualified for Wales and convinced him into the fold and back to England. They need to improve identifying players though that have the choice.

Yep I know all that, I was just making mischief in regards to Beshockeds posts on this topic. You do need to laugh though. Born in New Zealand, they have Tongan ancestry, their father represented Tonga, they lived in Wales for years and they have strong thick Welsh accents, and they play for England. How more multi-cultural can you get ?

Ha yes. The way of the world.

Morgan had Welsh parents as far as I know and was playing well for a Welsh team. Having been brought up in the west country I guess that is where he considered home, and evidently those from Gloucestershire are a lot more patriotic than those from Yorkshire... I don't think we tried to steal him like somebody previously alluded to. He was merely playing well and would have had an opportunity to play for Wales if it continued. He must have been considering it having turned down the Saxons call-up. Later he signed for Glaws, got his first England cap, and the rest is history.

* I read some slight dubious source that claimed Morgan had Welsh parents. If that was true he wouldn't have needed to qualify for Wales on residency, and I believe that is why he refused the Saxons.

No Ben Morgan was about to qualify through residency, no Welsh parents etc. I think even if Wales thought he wasn't quite ready they would have tied him to Wales if able.

mikey_dragon wrote:Morgan had Welsh parents as far as I know and was playing well for a Welsh team. Having been brought up in the west country I guess that is where he considered home, and evidently those from Gloucestershire are a lot more patriotic than those from Yorkshire... I don't think we tried to steal him like somebody previously alluded to. He was merely playing well and would have had an opportunity to play for Wales if it continued. He must have been considering it having turned down the Saxons call-up. Later he signed for Glaws, got his first England cap, and the rest is history.

* I read some slight dubious source that claimed Morgan had Welsh parents. If that was true he wouldn't have needed to qualify for Wales on residency, and I believe that is why he refused the Saxons.

Ben Morgan learnt his trade with Merthyr RFC. I think his mother was from my town, but she moved to Gloucester with his father. Here is an interesting link about him:-

http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Merthyr-making-Ben-Morgan/story-15410339-detail/story.html

Gatland really dropped the ball with morgan then as he was waiting for residency qualification to come through...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland really dropped the ball with morgan then as he was waiting for residency qualification to come through...

You are assuming that he could have influenced the decision. Morgan may have been given nod by England and made the calculation that there is more money to be made by being an England player. One suspects that Nathan Hughes has been lined up.

A view down under

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11510254

^^ Desperate.

Back onto seedings (and off residency issues); what about this?

Draw one from each pot:
Pot A (Rugby Championship): New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Argentina
Pot B (Europe 1): England, France, Ireland, Wales (based on combined 2012/2013 Six Nations form)
Pot C (Europe 2): Scotland, Italy, Georgia, Romania
Pot D (Oceania + Asia): Samoa, Fiji, Japan, Tonga
Pot E (Americas + Africa): USA, Canada, Uruguay, Namibia

The Rugby Championship teams are in one pot, because they're generally quite good anyway. Europe, who have 8 entries, are split into two pots, and 4 of them get seeded based on the first two Six Nations after the World Cup. The rest are split geographically, so teams that regularly play each other will get to play other teams.

Once you have your pots, you then seed the 4 previous World Cup semi-finalists OR the top 4 in the World Rankings at a given point (say end of the 2013 season), so in this case it would be New Zealand, Australia, France and Wales. They are immediately drawn out into pools.

Then, the rest of the teams are drawn, under the proviso that no-one can be drawn in the same pool as another team in their pot. So England and Ireland (as "punishments" for their quarter-final exits) will be put into a pool with either New Zealand or Australia, and South Africa and Argentina will end up with France and Wales.

The remainder of the pots then get drawn randomly. You may end up with the nightmare scenario of Scotland and Samoa or the dream scenario of Romania and Japan, but if you want to be winning the World Cup, those teams shouldn't be scaring you.

If then, say, Samoa made the World Cup semis and you wanted to do this system, they would be rewarded by not having to play any of the other World Cup semi-finalists. So they'd probably avoid the very top teams, but then they would have to play one Rugby Championship team and one Europe 1 team. Which may seem hard, but the "best" 3 teams from those competitions would also be seeded, so they won't have to play against them.

This system is similar to the the system used at the Football World Cup. Sometimes, it will produce a tough group, but it's generally fair on the seeds (therefore incentivises teams to push for it) and also ensures you play teams you don't play against every other year.

robbo277 wrote:Back onto seedings (and off residency issues); what about this?

Draw one from each pot:
Pot A (Rugby Championship): New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Argentina
Pot B (Europe 1): England, France, Ireland, Wales (based on combined 2012/2013 Six Nations form)
Pot C (Europe 2): Scotland, Italy, Georgia, Romania
Pot D (Oceania + Asia): Samoa, Fiji, Japan, Tonga
Pot E (Americas + Africa): USA, Canada, Uruguay, Namibia

The Rugby Championship teams are in one pot, because they're generally quite good anyway. Europe, who have 8 entries, are split into two pots, and 4 of them get seeded based on the first two Six Nations after the World Cup. The rest are split geographically, so teams that regularly play each other will get to play other teams.

Once you have your pots, you then seed the 4 previous World Cup semi-finalists OR the top 4 in the World Rankings at a given point (say end of the 2013 season), so in this case it would be New Zealand, Australia, France and Wales. They are immediately drawn out into pools.

Then, the rest of the teams are drawn, under the proviso that no-one can be drawn in the same pool as another team in their pot. So England and Ireland (as "punishments" for their quarter-final exits) will be put into a pool with either New Zealand or Australia, and South Africa and Argentina will end up with France and Wales.

The remainder of the pots then get drawn randomly. You may end up with the nightmare scenario of Scotland and Samoa or the dream scenario of Romania and Japan, but if you want to be winning the World Cup, those teams shouldn't be scaring you.

If then, say, Samoa made the World Cup semis and you wanted to do this system, they would be rewarded by not having to play any of the other World Cup semi-finalists. So they'd probably avoid the very top teams, but then they would have to play one Rugby Championship team and one Europe 1 team. Which may seem hard, but the "best" 3 teams from those competitions would also be seeded, so they won't have to play against them.

This system is similar to the the system used at the Football World Cup. Sometimes, it will produce a tough group, but it's generally fair on the seeds (therefore incentivises teams to push for it) and also ensures you play teams you don't play against every other year.

Your system is fundamentally unfair. Argentina for instance are guaranteed not to be drawn against the best team New Zealand however badly they play.

There are two ways to rank fairly:
- based on last world cup placings
- based on rankings but not so far in advance as this time.

I think we should do the seedings based on how many PI players each team has imported.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

goneagain wrote:Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

Dong hasn't done anything. It was beshocked dragging it off topic and bringing in his bizarre topic as per usual. He has done it several times in the past couple of weeks.

I am surprised he hasn't brought up our losing to Japan during the Lions tour quote yet. He always likes to keep dropping that one in.

Well he doesnt have to now, youve beaten him to it.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

goneagain wrote:Well done Dong, exceeded all expectations hasn't it?

Dong hasn't done anything. It was beshocked dragging it off topic and bringing in his bizarre topic as per usual. He has done it several times in the past couple of weeks.

I am surprised he hasn't brought up our losing to Japan during the Lions tour quote yet. He always likes to keep dropping that one in.

Well he doesnt have to now, youve beaten him to it.

Gwlad wrote:I think we should do the seedings based on how many PI players each team has imported.

Does NZ count as a PI?

GunsGerms wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I think we should do the seedings based on how many PI players each team has imported.

Does NZ count as a PI?

Well its a country made up of a number Islands in the Pacific Ocean, so probably not, as it would pour water all over the often repeated, so it must be a fact finding that New Zealand pillages the Pacific Islands for players, especially the North island.

Yes Hilary Benn, son of the 'legendary' labour politician Tony Benn - man of the working classes and Westminster School and Oxford University.  Champagne socialist probably felt the tory party was too plebeian for him.

As long as the rules say Francis is qualified to play for Wales - fine.  What his heritage is, whether people like it or not is of no relevance.  Allowing yourself to get worked up by a few WUM's is a joke.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I think we should do the seedings based on how many PI players each team has imported.

Does NZ count as a PI?

Well its a country made up of a number Islands in the Pacific Ocean, so probably not, as it would pour water all over the often repeated, so it must be a  fact finding that New Zealand pillages the Pacific Islands for players, especially the North island.

In that case Ireland have never had a PI player so all good.

GunsGerms wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I think we should do the seedings based on how many PI players each team has imported.

Does NZ count as a PI?

I believe it does technically but I don't see Tonga, Fiji or Samoa importing many other 'PI' players

Gwlad wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I think we should do the seedings based on how many PI players each team has imported.

Does NZ count as a PI?

I believe it does technically but I don't see Tonga, Fiji or Samoa importing many other 'PI' players

Really????????
Anyway down here we dont import, we share.