World Cup seedings revisited

First topic message reminder :

Just had a bit of a light bulb moment thought I'd go to the boards for some  coroborry.

I don't want to start a spitting fight here, so please take this in the inquisitive vein its intended!

The Pool of Death is suddenly looking less deadly. A lot of Welsh posters here and elsewhere seem a bit dejected after appearing to lose two world class players in the warmup.

But, If a Wales team denuded of a bunch of front liners goes out of this pool limply,  then were the seedings actually valid?

Is the big Welsh problem a lack of a bit of depth?  Undoubted world beaters at full strength, but maybe the drop to the dirt trackers is a bit precipitous?

Depth is an issue for Wales and Ireland in my mind too though. Lose a couple of key players and it's them hard, as you'd expect given the size of their countries and number of top teams.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon you can name one player who has retired who wouldn't call himself Welsh - born in England,lived in England, played for an English club, played for England.

Warburton,North,Cuthbert,Francis,Lydiate,Charteris,Moriarty,Davies all could have played for England.

Wales tried to poach Morgan too. To be fair at least played in Welsh club rugby.

Just admit you've heavily relied on England for your player base and for recruitment in general.

Shaun Edwards - English coach, Josh Lewsey - English too.

Biltong perhaps but Wales have significant amount of players with connections to England.

beshocked I don't understand your first statement - I can just about make sense of it and I think you're referring to Lewsey? It was a bit tongue in cheek of me mentioning that. I had a feeling you'd take it very serious though.

As for your second statement I assume they could represent England due to being born there or via a parent. So what? They can't help it if their parents happened to work there at the time. They would have been able to represent England under the current criteria as I've already alluded to, but would you go out and call them English? I guess you would, but anyone else with an ounce of common sense would not. And imagine if they played for England, we could say "but they could have played for Wales" then. It's a pointless argument. So no, we haven't relied on England heavily (certainly not the bolded players from that list; a quick check up on their rugby playing history should confirm that simple fact for you), and no more than anyone else relies on England to provide them with coaches or harbour their players. We probably rely more on NZ than England, but then again so does the rest of the rugby world .

England have players with significant connections to SA biltong... Probably as many as France. This a petty argument, but what I can take from it is:
1. The criteria and laws surrounding these issues requires amendment.
2. Beshocked is delusional and went to a private school.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:What connections are these that make them English? Zero I would guess. They do however get to play for different nations under the current criteria. Before you reply Beshocked I know Francis is English and Lewsey is Welsh...

Oh jaysus (as the Irish would say)
JD born in Birmingham
Lydiate in Manchester English dad Welsh mum
Cuthbert residency
Warburton English roots
North born Kings Lyn English dad Welsh mum

Thats just off the top of my head

Oh dear, I suggest you read the question again, and then follow up by acknowledging my reply to beshocked. It should make sense to you then.

I'm so confused, beshocked are you really claiming that in a country like Wales where English and Welsh blood is so entwined over hundreds of years of history that players who 'could' have played for England are traitors for seeing Welsh rugby as home?!

Anyone who uses George North or Sam Warburton as examples of turned Englishmen automatically lose any argument they are trying to make.

There are so many English players with Welsh ancestry and Welsh players with English ancestry who is to judge any of them for picking one way or another.

I myself have played English schoolboy rugby, and worn a rose at age grade, but also played an exile game too, and throughout everything always considered myself Welsh because of my ancestry. Am I to be looked down upon?

Fanster that post contains a lot common sense. Therefore it's completely lost on people like beshocked and lostinwales.

Sam Warburton is more English than he is Welsh but that's no different to Barritt being more South African, to be more specific Warburton has always considered himself British.

mikey_dragon wrote:Fanster that post contains a lot common sense. Therefore it's completely lost on people like beshocked and lostinwales.

mikey_dragon wrote:Mauritz Botha and Brad Barritt.

That's a long way to climb to get up on that high horse of yours

My point is that Wales have such poor strength in depth that they need to desperately scout out English players in England to find players to strengthen their team.

If it was one or two players it might be understandable but it's not.

England has had one or two players with SA connections.

Wales has plenty in the current Welsh squad who could play for England.

They are English qualified, they might see themselves as Welsh but they could play for England.

It's very unlikely you would have won your GSs without Englishman Shaun Edwards who is the mastermind of the Welsh defence.

Just admit the connections with England have been very helpful to Wales (probably wouldn't be where you are now without them).

I can see points regarding Francis, he hasn't really any connection to Wales, but still took the chance of international rugby, but is it any different than Strauss or Payne?

beshocked wrote:My point is that Wales have such poor strength in depth that they need to desperately scout out English players in England to find players to strengthen their team.

If it was one or two players it might be understandable but it's not.

England has had one or two players with SA connections.

Wales has plenty in the current Welsh squad who could play for England.

They are English qualified, they might see themselves as Welsh but they could play for England.

It's very unlikely you would have won your GSs without Englishman Shaun Edwards who is the mastermind of the Welsh defence.

Just admit the connections with England have been very helpful to Wales (probably wouldn't be where you are now without them).

So your angry Wales have a foreign coach? Your angry Wales have players they produced themselves who could have an English connection if they want?

Are you as angry about Strauss or Payne?

I don't understand what has brought this view? Hasn't Irelands most popular national holiday been moulded around a Welsh farmer? Does this mean Irish heritage has benefited from Welsh farmers and Viking kidnappers?

in the end no one knows beyond the case that player x qualifies via mum/dad/granny1/granny2 etc.

maybe Cuthbert always had welsh rugby in his heart... maybe josh lewsey did too but saw England as the only way of winning a world cup medal.

Nations don't own players and  each player has his own reasons be it based on family, current location, lack of opportunities in original nation, financial rewards and so on.

Why can't a kid be torn between 2 nations? Why can't someone have national feelings for both?
Does Brad Barritt owe everything to SA, his schooling, his rugby career? In the end he paid fees to attend school, his was paid to represent his club... would he have not been a rugby player without his PT instructor Mr van der Merwe aged 14?

England have a few players who could have played for other countries. As long as it's within the rules unlike in the past (!) it's all good!

No 7&1/2 wrote:England have a few players who could have played for other countries. As long as it's within the rules unlike in the past (!) it's all good!

I agree, although I think we all agree the rules need tweaking, how anyone can slate another nation for doing exactly what near all nations do is beyond me.

Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

lostinwales I can see you haven't been paying attention to my careful words throughout my posting on this article. Again beshocked is the one obsessed with this topic and was the one who brought it up on a post discussing a completely different topic. I am sorry if my post upset you or anyone, it wasn't meant to. It was another tongue-in-cheek moment.

beshocked you just aren't listening to what people are telling you. For you (and lostinwales); I've gone and compiled a list based on your thoughts and applied it to 'England players'. So take a look: Thomas Waldrom, Mauritz Botha, Brad Barritt, Lesley Vainakolo, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Manu Tuilagi, Alex Corbisiero, Dylan Hartley, Matt Kvesic, Lee Dickson.

Even Welsh born former England player Dewi Morris thinks that England is an attractive prospect for players from a financial perspective only. Martin Corry has also spoke out about it being an issue (hmmmm doesn't Corry also have a 'welsh connection' ?). Now beshocked I'm sure you will have something to say, and it will probably be along the lines of repeating what you've said a hundred times already in the past couple weeks, but I suggest you pause for a moment and reconsider your position now that I have provided you with this supplementation .

Fanster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England have a few players who could have played for other countries. As long as it's within the rules unlike in the past (!) it's all good!

I agree, although I think we all agree the rules need tweaking, how anyone can slate another nation for doing exactly what near all nations do is beyond me.

Agree completely. I think if any nation is playing to a different set they're being a bit foolish. I don't agree with someone like Hughes becoming available to England next year and he shouldn't be in my mind; at the same time Lancaster needs to cap him.

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England have a few players who could have played for other countries. As long as it's within the rules unlike in the past (!) it's all good!

I agree, although I think we all agree the rules need tweaking, how anyone can slate another nation for doing exactly what near all nations do is beyond me.

Agree completely. I think if any nation is playing to a different set they're being a bit foolish. I don't agree with someone like Hughes becoming available to England next year and he shouldn't be in my mind; at the same time Lancaster needs to cap him.

Agree. It's just a couple posters that seem to take an issue with Wales exposing the rules, even though their own nation is doing it too.

If Hughes was capped I doubt beshocked would bring it up on a daily basis!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

I have no idea. I rooted for England then too, does that make me English?

No. Just makes you a traitor to your country. (Jesting!)

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

lostinwales I can see you haven't been paying attention to my careful words throughout my posting on this article. Again beshocked is the one obsessed with this topic and was the one who brought it up on a post discussing a completely different topic. I am sorry if my post upset you or anyone, it wasn't meant to. It was another tongue-in-cheek moment.

beshocked you just aren't listening to what people are telling you. For you (and lostinwales); I've gone and compiled a list based on your thoughts and applied it to 'England players'. So take a look: Thomas Waldrom, Mauritz Botha, Brad Barritt, Lesley Vainakolo, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Manu Tuilagi, Alex Corbisiero, Dylan Hartley, Matt Kvesic, Lee Dickson.

Even Welsh born former England player Dewi Morris thinks that England is an attractive prospect for players from a financial perspective only. Martin Corry has also spoke out about it being an issue (hmmmm doesn't Corry also have a 'welsh connection' ?). Now beshocked I'm sure you will have something to say, and it will probably be along the lines of repeating what you've said a hundred times already in the past couple weeks, but I suggest you pause for a moment and reconsider your position now that I have provided you with this supplementation .

from a quick check....

Tuilagi, Corbisiero, Hartley, Vunipolas... all moved to England as kids.

Kvesic and Dickson were british army brats born overseas.

Brad Barritt is English South African i.e. Probably more English than most of the English.

Vainakolo, Flutey, Hape, Waldrom, Botha were residency players. None were really major players mind... maybe Flutey in his pomp but only for a season or two.

its a pro game in the end. Its a shame but it happened in the amateur days as much as today. The only diff is that these days their are a lot more polynesians playing for countries such as Japan, AUS, ENG, WAL etc due to residency not just NZ so its more noticeable.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

I have no idea. I rooted for England then too, does that make me English?

I suppose you've never actually seen or heard Warburton comment about such things, he does not consider himself to be Welsh, controversial as it is they are the words he himself has spoken.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

I have no idea. I rooted for England then too, does that make me English?

I'm pretty sure its warburton. Spoke about it during the lions. His parents are English. He supported England as a boy but by 2005 his dad says he had turned to Wales.

Nothing wrong with the above, ancestry of one nation, birth of another. I'm sure he's never been 100% in one camp but accepts he made his bed, that you can only make one choice and moved on. Its never simply yes or no.

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

lostinwales I can see you haven't been paying attention to my careful words throughout my posting on this article. Again beshocked is the one obsessed with this topic and was the one who brought it up on a post discussing a completely different topic. I am sorry if my post upset you or anyone, it wasn't meant to. It was another tongue-in-cheek moment.

beshocked you just aren't listening to what people are telling you. For you (and lostinwales); I've gone and compiled a list based on your thoughts and applied it to 'England players'. So take a look: Thomas Waldrom, Mauritz Botha, Brad Barritt, Lesley Vainakolo, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Manu Tuilagi, Alex Corbisiero, Dylan Hartley, Matt Kvesic, Lee Dickson.

Even Welsh born former England player Dewi Morris thinks that England is an attractive prospect for players from a financial perspective only. Martin Corry has also spoke out about it being an issue (hmmmm doesn't Corry also have a 'welsh connection' ?). Now beshocked I'm sure you will have something to say, and it will probably be along the lines of repeating what you've said a hundred times already in the past couple weeks, but I suggest you pause for a moment and reconsider your position now that I have provided you with this supplementation .

from a quick check....

Tuilagi, Corbisiero, Hartley, Vunipolas... all moved to England as kids.

Kvesic and Dickson were british army brats born overseas.

Brad Barritt is English South African i.e. Probably more English than most of the English.

Vainakolo, Flutey, Hape, Waldrom, Botha were residency players. None were really major players mind... maybe Flutey in his pomp but only for a season or two.

its a pro game in the end. Its a shame but it happened in the amateur days as much as today. The only diff is that these days their are a lot more polynesians playing for countries such as Japan, AUS, ENG, WAL etc due to residency not just NZ so its more noticeable.

I compiled the list based on the thoughts from beshocked. I've watched rugby for a long time and have only ever considered guys like Tuilagi, Corbs, Hartley and the Vunipola's England players.

I didn't know that about Kvesic and Dickson. But the same (or similar) applies to several Wales players yet some posters like beshocked cannot seem to get the message. And Barritt....... ? Okay.

Flutey, etc were nothing more then mercenaries in my eyes. I don't doubt their commitment or professional attitude though, and they did nothing wrong. England did wrong in selecting them according to some former England players.

Correct.

fa0019 wrote:in the end no one knows

Well, Tony Copsey has a "Made in England" tattoo on his backside, so we know his allegiances lay elsewhere at one point in his life...

To be fair to Copsey, though, he has always been proud of being selected for Wales, so I don't think anyone can say he just used them as a flag of convenience.

Robin McBryde wrote in his book how he had never liked the idea of Englishmen Tony Copsey and Rupert Moon turning out for Wales on residency grounds but changed his mind when he got to know them on tour. He even ended up asking Moon to be godfather to his eldest son.

i think the worst was the Lions and flutey. The Lions for me is something different, the last bastion of the amateur days. Its not about money, its about tradition and honour. The best of the NH vs. the best of the SH in the SH. He shouldn't have toured for me. Flutey is now back in NZ.... that's how much England/UK meant to him, it was a job in the end.

mikey dragon firstly Hughes isn't Welsh. Secondly I wouldn't him playing for England because he's not English.

None of those players are Welsh.

Talking about Wales' reliance on players with English connections.

The Welsh captain Warburton is the perfect example.

fa0019 England have had foreign players from a number of countries but they haven't taken a significant % from one country.

Fanster not angry - just would like it if Welsh fans accepted that they are partially indebted to England for their success and wouldn't be where they are without the players with English connections, the coach etc.

It's not as if these players are bit part players either.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

I have no idea. I rooted for England then too, does that make me English?

I suppose you've never actually seen or heard Warburton comment about such things, he does not consider himself to be Welsh, controversial as it is they are the words he himself has spoken.

Have you? I think there was a time when he represented the Lions that he said he was British. You're also coming across like beshocked, a bit over-obsessed with Wales players whilst desperately trying to claim them as your own. I'll just add you to the list of posters lacking in common sense .

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

I have no idea. I rooted for England then too, does that make me English?

I suppose you've never actually seen or heard Warburton comment about such things, he does not consider himself to be Welsh, controversial as it is they are the words he himself has spoken.

I hope this is not in reference to the 'British' Lions tour response? Are you looking for a sensational headline too?

I have no issue with Warburton, Cuthbert or Lydiate representing Wales because it's no different to Barritt, the V Bros or Tuilagi, think you need to get over yourself a bit, I doubt anyone is overly concerned.

England are just thinking bigger. You take the English we take the rest of the world.

probably the only nation that holds its head up high is Argentina. No one plays for them bar Argentinians to knowledge. The rest, they recruit from abroad although some are worse than others.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon firstly Hughes isn't Welsh. Secondly I wouldn't him playing for England because he's not English.

None of those players are Welsh.

Talking about Wales' reliance on players with English connections.

The Welsh captain Warburton is the perfect example.

fa0019 England have had foreign players from a number of countries but they haven't taken a significant % from one country.

Fanster not angry - just would like it if Welsh fans accepted that they are partially indebted to England for their success and wouldn't be where they are without the players with English connections, the coach etc.

It's not as if these players are bit part players either.

But why are they indebted to a country whose heritage is entwined with their own? There will always be players with English heritage in the Welsh set up due to a large number of Welsh people having English heritage full stop.

Your trying to attribute an argument regarding Francis, and arguably Cuthbert to a lot of players who grew up in Wales, speak Welsh and have considered themselves Welsh throughout their careers, why? Whats your agenda? Are you jealous and want Warburton and North to start for England? Or are you feeling victimise by the might of the WRU and it's opression of the RFU?

How do you feel about Falatau? or the Vunipolas for that matter?

Do you also want to strip NZ of 100 years of success because a lot of world class talent is of Pacific Island heritage?

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon firstly Hughes isn't Welsh. Secondly I wouldn't him playing for England because he's not English.

None of those players are Welsh.

Talking about Wales' reliance on players with English connections.

The Welsh captain Warburton is the perfect example.

fa0019 England have had foreign players from a number of countries but they haven't taken a significant % from one country.

Fanster not angry - just would like it if Welsh fans accepted that they are partially indebted to England for their success and wouldn't be where they are without the players with English connections, the coach etc.

It's not as if these players are bit part players either.

Why though, why are we just talking about Welsh players? This is just further exposing your weird obsession! What does English connections mean exactly and what implications does it have? Why is Warburton the perfect example?

How/why are we partly indebted to England? I'm grateful for coaches like Edwards. We're lucky to have nicked Francis, but that's about it as we don't have any other English players you can count Cuthbert if you want but then that would cancel out your Warburton claim as Cuthbert has Welsh parents and since setting foot in Cardiff he's never left. I know through connections close to him that he's fully committed to Cardiff and Wales but I guess it depends on how you define elements of nationality, residency, etc. Once again, we are more thankful to NZ for providing us with past and present coaches. Are England are also partially indebted to each of USA, NZ, Aus, SA, Samoa?

lostinWales always been a little down the food chain as is beshocked. Simple thing is they are all Welsh and would have chosen Wales above england and not because england are superior history tells us that.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I have no issue with Warburton, Cuthbert or Lydiate representing Wales because it's no different to Barritt, the V Bros or Tuilagi, think you need to get over yourself a bit, I doubt anyone is overly concerned.

Except for Beshocked and lostinwales. Beshocked is the one mentioning it on a regular basis even when it isn't relevant to the OP so I'm trying to help him. I suggest you try and help him too.

Shock horror English rugby fan ribs the Welsh for selecting players with English blood and heritage.

Fanster wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hammersmith I suggest you tell that to Wales captain Warburton after he puts his hand on his heart and 'bleats' out the Welsh National Anthem.

Was it Warburton (sure it was) or North who was sat in their England top for the 2003 WC final?

I have no idea. I rooted for England then too, does that make me English?

I suppose you've never actually seen or heard Warburton comment about such things, he does not consider himself to be Welsh, controversial as it is they are the words he himself has spoken.

I hope this is not in reference to the 'British' Lions tour response? Are you looking for a sensational headline too?

I was wondering if it was that. You have to laugh at people who take things out of context.

This debate is going in circles, nothing to solve here

I'm not sure there is a debate, just a poster refusing to answer the confusion surrounding his comments.

rainbow-warrior wrote:lostinWales always been a little down the food chain as is beshocked.   Simple thing is they are all Welsh and would have chosen Wales above england and not because england are superior history tells us that.  

Its different for everyone, North seems like he made the natural choice in his decision to choose Wales over England... Cuthbert on the other hand looks like he was passed over by England, that by 20 he had no academy contract and no junior honours. Cardiff gave him a shot and then due to his mother being Welsh it was a natural step to keep on playing with those he played club rugby with. By the sounds of it he would have played for England had he gone through the England ranks... a lot of assumptions in there but thats how it seems to me.

Everyone has a different case, maybe he would have chosen Wales all along and to be honest, who cares. It is how it is.

rainbow-warrior wrote:lostinWales always been a little down the food chain as is beshocked.   Simple thing is they are all Welsh and would have chosen Wales above england and not because england are superior history tells us that.  

Well they aren't Welsh, they just chose Wales

As for the food chain, didn't realise plankton had a warrior form

Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure there is a debate, just a poster refusing to answer the confusion surrounding his comments.

Which poster....

Seriously, what I personally want to see is the best rugby players playing at the highest level. Sometimes the routes those players take to get to international level are far from straightforward. I don't have a problem with these players choosing who they want to play for.

Of the 'English' players mentioned a lot have some direct links. Corbisero has an English mum for one. Flutey did actually qualify through some very tenuous grandparent link, but what happened to the best of my knowledge is that he was going off the rails in NZ, came to the UK and sorted himself out and was for England (and the Lions) for a short time a very useful center. He played a lot of rugby in England before being picked.

I have more worries about the players who come from abroad and parachute straight into the national team system, like the kiwi RL players (who largely failed), and the likes of John Hardie and Gareth Anscombe in Scotland and Wales respectively. If they can prove themselves to us and their colleagues then good luck to them but they are the only ones I'd really question.

rainbow-warrior wrote:lostinWales always been a little down the food chain as is beshocked.   Simple thing is they are all Welsh and would have chosen Wales above england and not because england are superior history tells us that.  

Standard practice can't contribute to the discussion so attacks the posters...

lostinwales wrote:

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure there is a debate, just a poster refusing to answer the confusion surrounding his comments.

Which poster....

Seriously, what I personally want to see is the best rugby players playing at the highest level. Sometimes the routes those players take to get to international level are far from straightforward. I don't have a problem with these players choosing who they want to play for.

Of the 'English' players mentioned a lot have some direct links. Corbisero has an English mum for one. Flutey did actually qualify through some very tenuous grandparent link, but what happened to the best of my knowledge is that he was going off the rails in NZ, came to the UK and sorted himself out and was for England (and the Lions) for a short time a very useful center. He played a lot of rugby in England before being picked.

I have more worries about the players who come from abroad and parachute straight into the national team system, like the kiwi RL players (who largely failed), and the likes of John Hardie and Gareth Anscombe in Scotland and Wales respectively. If they can prove themselves to us and their colleagues then good luck to them but they are the only ones I'd really question.

That grandparent link of fluteys is a bit of a stretch

The family legend is that his granny had a brief affair with an English sailor who then jumped back into his boat never to return. No documentation just rumour/hearsay etc. Maybe its true....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/5208460/Riki-Flutey-finds-he-is-full-of-the-blood-of-an-Englishman.html

BamBam wrote:Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Which players are you referring to? I admit the Welsh connections to guys like Cuthbert, Francis and Faletau are weak, but besides that there are NO English/foreign players in the squad. Even Anscombe has been omitted...

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Incidentally I have no problem with it, its the rules that are the problem, not the teams using the rules to their advantage

Stretching  to "They are Welsh" is just a pure lie, as would be claiming Botha or Vainikolo or Flutey or Hughes are English

Which players are you referring to? I admit the Welsh connections to guys like Cuthbert, Francis and Faletau are weak, but besides that there are NO English/foreign players in the squad. Even Anscombe has been omitted...

from a quick check and just from birth alone. So 11 out of 31 were born outside of Wales.

Tonga (1)

Faletau

Australia (1)

King

England (9)

Charteris, Lydiate, Ball, North, Francis, Cuthbert, Jarvis, Amos, Morgan. You could have added JD2 if he was fit also.

Most of those seem Welsh schooled so fine with me but hey ho. Anscombe is NZ but not yet with the squad.

Fanster I am saying that Welsh fans have to acknowledge the English connection because it's there.

Yes I guess you could say it's comparable to NZ's connection with the pacific islands.

mikey dragon the point is that more of your players have connection with England than any other country - not surprising but something you fail to acknowledge. Also if Wales didn't take players like Moriarty and Francis from English clubs who helped develop them it wouldn't come up as much.

My initial point was that Wales have been trying to encourage the likes of Francis and Moriarty to play for them because of lack of strength in depth.

Well (other than the schooling) Moriaty comes from such a strong Welsh rugby heritage that in some ways it was a surprise that he played U20's for us, and none at all that he has thrown his lot in with Wales now.

Francis is more complicated. I suspect he isn't going to rush to take up a place playing for one of the Welsh regions

beshocked wrote:Fanster I am saying that Welsh fans have to acknowledge the English connection because it's there.

Yes I guess you could say it's comparable to NZ's connection with the pacific islands.

mikey dragon the point is that more of your players have connection with England than any other country - not surprising but something you fail to acknowledge. Also if Wales didn't take players like Moriarty and Francis from English clubs who helped develop them it wouldn't come up as much.

My initial point was that Wales have been trying to encourage the likes of Francis and Moriarty to play for them because of lack of strength in depth.

Lets be honest if Moriarty had chosen England over Wales he would have had about 30 boots on his back in the first minute of his first England Wales match up. Juniors is ok, test level would be similar to Tony Benn's kids leading the tory party type of betrayal.