Yet Another Sam Burgess Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Sam Burgess, demigod or not?

[BamBam]

Peyper displayed the same amount of anti Englishness as Sam Burgess did rugby playing ability at centre

Now how much that is can be debated

[kingelderfield]

I'm sure you're right. That said he's not the best ref in this competition.

[Gwlad]

Shouldn't this thread be in rugby league?

[Poorfour]

From following the threads on here, it's pretty clear that most teams have a ref they just don't seem to be able get the hang of.

Teams who are over-reliant on dark arts at the scrum (Wales, Australia) tend not to get on with French refs. Teams that like to pile through the breakdown (Ireland, NZ) tend to struggle with Wayne Barnes.

Peyper is England's problem ref. I don't see all that much wrong with what he does (though I was incensed that he wouldn't even look at the possible trip on Care in the warm-ups), but England really struggle with his style at the breakdown. He's the opposite of Barnes - much happier for teams to charge through even if it means ending up off their feet. He's also likely to penalise the tackler for not rolling away if the opposition can get someone to sit on top of him. Neither of those suit how England play.

It's another potential banana skin for Friday - but on the flip side I would rather have him for the Fiji game than the Wales or Australia ones (where Garces and Poite will probably suit England better than the opposition). And I have a sneaking suspicion that England's indiscipline in Paris may well have been an exercise in testing his boundaries. They will certainly have had a lot of video evidence to scrutinise and I hope they have learned.

[No 7&1/2]

That was Lacey in fairness to Peyper.

[beshocked]

Sgt Pooly you talk about skills for a centre.

Would you say the likes of Roberts and Nonu have those? Kicking and distribution?

Barritt is probably slower than Burgess yet he's Lancaster's first choice.

Lancaster obviously wants a specific type of player at 12 for England - it's not a kicking 12 as some want.

When you have a little 10 like Ford it's good to have someone like Barritt or Burgess next to him.

Plus Lancaster wants a back who will be able to help the forwards.

There are enough fancy backs like Watson,Joseph and May. A bit of steel at 12 isn't bad.

My biggest issue with Burgess is not his speed,acceleration or carrying. It's his awareness and decision making. Particularly in the centres.

This is something I think he lacks at the moment because of his lack of experience in rugby union too. I think a good opposition 12 would be able to exploit this.

[Poorfour]

That was Lacey in fairness to Peyper.

Sorry - you're right. Mixing up two games in my head.

[ChequeredJersey]

From following the threads on here, it's pretty clear that most teams have a ref they just don't seem to be able get the hang of.

Teams who are over-reliant on dark arts at the scrum (Wales, Australia) tend not to get on with French refs. Teams that like to pile through the breakdown (Ireland, NZ) tend to struggle with Wayne Barnes.

Peyper is England's problem ref. I don't see all that much wrong with what he does (though I was incensed that he wouldn't even look at the possible trip on Care in the warm-ups), but England really struggle with his style at the breakdown. He's the opposite of Barnes - much happier for teams to charge through even if it means ending up off their feet. He's also likely to penalise the tackler for not rolling away if the opposition can get someone to sit on top of him. Neither of those suit how England play.

It's another potential banana skin for Friday - but on the flip side I would rather have him for the Fiji game than the Wales or Australia ones (where Garces and Poite will probably suit England better than the opposition). And I have a sneaking suspicion that England's indiscipline in Paris may well have been an exercise in testing his boundaries. They will certainly have had a lot of video evidence to scrutinise and I hope they have learned.

Good points as usual.

[ChequeredJersey]

I'm struggling to think of another backrow forward who played in the top flight as a centre bar Burgess and James Forrester.

Richie Vernon played 20 times in the back row for Scotland between 2009 and 2012. He then converted to centre and is in their WC squad as such, staring at centre in two of their warm up games. Over 3 years between last back row and first centre caps mind.

Hooper played much of a Lions test at centre

[Sgt_Pooly]

Still does doesn't he CJ? I thought he was a 13

[ChequeredJersey]

Still does doesn't he CJ? I thought he was a 13

I kind of agree but it's a controversial view to hold!
Lots of flankers COULD play centre with a specific gameplan and experience, but not all and not without help.

George Smith played a match or two there for Toulon.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I know what you mean, let's forget we ever had this discussion or we may be lynched elsewhere

[TJ]

Still does doesn't he CJ? I thought he was a 13

I kind of agree but it's a controversial view to hold!
Lots of flankers COULD play centre with a specific gameplan and experience, but not all and not without help.

George Smith played a match or two there for Toulon.

Blake the loose forward came on in the centre for Glasgow at the weekend - probably because they didn't have any centres left to play.  It was apparently a planned move and was for an injury replacement.  Acquitted himself well IIRC and of course Ritchie Vernon the 8 turned centre has adjusted well

[Poorfour]

My son plays U11 rugby at 13 for his school and 7 (to the extent that we have positions) for his club. The basic differences between a back row and a centre quite subtle - all else being equal, a centre will be a bit faster, a bit better handler and passer, better positionally and possibly a better kicker. A back row would generally be a bit more powerful, have a higher workrate and hit harder in the tackle.

But we're also seeing the emergence of players who could be equally comfortable in both roles. Late specialisation and an emphasis on handling and speed all through the academy is beginning to produce some interesting cases. For me the best current England example is Clifford, who's fast enough to be a serious running threat in 7s and has excellent hands but is also a very capable ruck and maul operator.

[Sgt_Pooly]

"all else being equal, a centre will be a bit faster, a bit better handler and passer, better positionally and possibly a better kickare"

Ironically, these are Burgess's problem areas.

[Poorfour]

"all else being equal, a centre will be a bit faster, a bit better handler and passer, better positionally and possibly a better kickare"

Ironically, these are Burgess's problem areas.

Arguably. But there's very little agreement on how much of a problem they are. Lancaster claims he's as fast as Barritt, which is pretty plausible. We haven't really seen enough to know whether he actually has handling issues or just got a bit over-enthusiastic; presumably he's not struggled with it in training. He will have positional issues to fix, but we've also seen that he creates positional issues in the opposition.

For what it's worth, I agree with the consensus on here (and with Mike Ford) that he's ultimately better as a 6 - but that's primarily down to his work rate. When you have someone who can make that many plays per game, you want them somewhere where they will be involved in a lot of plays. But Ford started him at centre because it's an easier position to learn.

[kingelderfield]

That was Lacey in fairness to Peyper.

Sorry  - you're right. Mixing up two games in my head.

He was rubbish as well

[ChequeredJersey]

Poorfour, I don't see how whether Lancaster being faster than Barritt (believable) is of any relevance here...

[Gwlad]

"all else being equal, a centre will be a bit faster, a bit better handler and passer, better positionally and possibly a better kickare"

Ironically, these are Burgess's problem areas.

Not true, what you want is either a centre who can do a bit of both, finesse and strong arm such as Henson but these are rare, or a centre who excels at one working with one who excels at the other…Guscott Carling, Tindall Greenwood, Horan Little, Roberts Davies.

Burgess is out and out a defensive magnet and a carry up 12. With JJ next to him its a mouthwatering prospect.

[englandglory4ever]

I thought Sam went well tonight. Not perfect but pretty good.

[No 7&1/2]

Pretty good in comparison to Barritt but positioning at 12 let Fiji get an easy clean break.

[Guest]

I'd expect Burgess to start next week and be fine knowing that he can just be waiting for Roberts, North etc to crash up his channel.

[No 7&1/2]

Slade, please remember him Mr Lancaster!

[englandglory4ever]

Pretty good in comparison to Barritt but positioning at 12 let Fiji get an easy clean break.

That was his only questionable issue. Arguably the inside player should have made the tackled. All punditss o far thought he upped the tempo carried well, offloading was good. Carried well too. Well worth his place. Even chequered jersey has conceded he was wrong.

[fa0019]

I think if Slade went on the pitch he would have been decapitated. Against Fiji they really should have played Farrell at 10, Burgess at 12, Launchbury at 4 over Lawes. There are games for creative chaps... Fiji is not one of them. It looked like a Colts vs. U13 side sometimes.

Fiji looked about 10cm and 15kg bigger per man. They made the English look tiny. The England team looked scared too, they didn't want to take it into contact.. they lacked direction and seemed to throw it around, it was very messy. Lawes can tackle but its more athletic tackling from him... Launchbury never shirks.

7.5 - what did you think of Englands set piece... to lose 3 scrums to Fiji is a bit worrisome no... although I would fancy that Fijian pack to best most. Lineout was ok although Youngs got most, they've had to sacrifice attacking lineouts for simply getting possession recycled and it costs an edge for sure. Launchbury has to come in. Impresses every game, in the big games too... he's the next bakkies/Jonno for me.

Have to say, I'm not a big Vunipola fan but his energy was very impressive. In some ways hes lucky that fiji looked like tiring but he led the comeback of England. Burgess too added a dimension.

I'd say England maybe 4/10 overall (had they not scored 4th it would have been 3/10). Barritt had a shocker... should have been binned, 3 penalties at least. Cole was very poor also.

Guys who played well... Brown, Wood, Parling

Guys who didn't .... Ford, Youngs, Barritt.

[ChequeredJersey]

Pretty good in comparison to Barritt but positioning at 12 let Fiji get an easy clean break.

That was his only questionable issue. Arguably the inside player should have made the tackled. All punditss o far thought he upped the tempo carried well, offloading was good. Carried well too. Well worth his place. Even chequered jersey has conceded he was wrong.

"even". Thanks

[No 7&1/2]

Basic mistake though England though his carrying does remain as good as a 6!

Slade would have helped the whole show fa to be fair Barrtt was poor offensively and uncharacteriscally in defence. Scrum was alright ref let Fiji away with a couple lineout back to normal, very good.

What did Ford do badly or are you justt rying to fit pre game comments?

[fa0019]

I wouldn't say 3 missed scrums is ok myself. They were dominated for 60 mins before England's bench quality came on.

If you looked at Ford his management was poor. Look at England's backline attack... it wasn't there at all. He's the general.. he drives the plays.

Yet it was like a beach game, tossing it over to one player to the next. No one taking it in. No one straightening the line, no direct balls. You have to say the pivot is responsible for this. I would say Youngs didn't give him great front ball service and Fiji's line-speed was impressive yet when England had the ball no one seemed to want to take it in.... they looked scared to a man. Only a few players (Parling, Wood, Billy V, Brown etc) seemed to want to take them on.

What was his kick success rate too? 3/5?

[No 7&1/2]

The scrums were fine really disappointing to lose 1 5m out but also disappointing to not pick up at least another 2 pens.

Ford was fine, the difference today in an attacking sense was Barrittt everything he touched today turned into the opposite of gold! He s the guy to offer that straightening the tough gnarly guy and it went pair shaped. Against Ireland Joseph stood in well as 2nd receiver not so today and it took me back to when there were calls for Barritt to make way to someone a little more rounded.

[fa0019]

linespeed i admit was very very good by Fiji.... but 10/12 for me were poor. Linespeed good... then sit a little further back and counter it with chips, cross kicks and directball-decoy moves to exploit space. When did they do this... never and Fiji disrupted for 60 mins until Farrell came on.

[No 7&1/2]

Barritt went off.

[ChequeredJersey]

Ford looked naive to me. Forcing plays, drifting backwards on pointless switches.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I agree Ford looked out of his depth, he's struggling at Int level lately. 9-13 had poor games and the pack lacked carriers.

The scrum was even which is slightly worrying, we'll see in later games if Fiji are any good or if we made them look good.

We drove them back numerous times but lost the one 5m one with Youngs missed hook again putting Morgan under pressure. Prop subs did well until Fiji replaced and we were hit and miss again.

I'd be tempted with bringing in Launchbury for Lawes (who doesn't add enough). Wigglesworth or Care for Youngs and finally, Tom Youngs out of the 23 altogether. We just can't keep carrying him through games. His throwing is poor, he can't hook, he just causes too many issues.

[fa0019]

nerves can impact handling, running out of defensive lines and even kicks but they don't impact scrums bar early hooks. That should be a major worry for England. Yes at the end of the game their subs overpowered the non subbed Fijian pack but up to 60 mins the Fijians had the upper hand there.
When was the last time Fiji were dominant over any tier 1 team come the scrum?

I think Lancaster should seriously look at replacing Cole. Playing on reputation alone.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Fiji didn't dominate the scrum, it just didn't happen. They got the shove on a few times as did we.

If you're dominant, you control every scrum. 3 mins in we win a pen from the scrum and nail 3 pts. Straight after the Fiji try we marched them backwards and won a pen resulting in 3pts again.

Fiji were not dominant, it was an even affair which in itself is slightly worrying.

[englandglory4ever]

A small and under powered hooker is our problem at scrum time. Basically we have 2.5 instead of 3 in the front row. Bismarck du plesis must be licking his lips.

[ChequeredJersey]

Fiji didn't dominate the scrum, it just didn't happen. They got the shove on a few times as did we.

If you're dominant, you control every scrum. 3 mins in we win a pen from the scrum and nail 3 pts. Straight after the Fiji try we marched them backwards and won a pen resulting in 3pts again.

Fiji were not dominant, it was an even affair which in itself is slightly worrying.

This is correct. Though Marler was boring in a lot. And both sides wheeling every scrum

[ChequeredJersey]

A small and under powered hooker is our problem at scrum time. Basically we have 2.5 instead of 3 in the front row. Bismarck du plesis must be licking his lips.

Luckily I don't think we'll be facing South Africa!  We are going to top this group

[Hammersmith harrier]

I said it before the tournament started but these physical games don't suit Ford and he becomes a bit of a liability, Farrell whilst not creative is one of the best defensive 10's in the game and his game management of such games is pretty good. Barritt playing poorly in defence is the big worry and could lead to Burgess starting against the Welsh, it could be the ideal game for him as well, Roberts whilst big would be smashed back every time he gets the ball. The Aussie centres running at either Barritt or Burgess is a worry though.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'm worried about the make up of the front 5 in general.

Cole and Marler are not in great scrummaging form, that's pretty clear. They're not helped by Youngs who is a poor scrummaging and struggles with the basics ie just hooking the ball back.

We've also got 2 locks not renowned for adding a lot in the set piece. We've got to replace Youngs and start Launchbury instead of Lawes imo.

[nathan]

I'm worried about the make up of the front 5 in general.

Cole and Marler are not in great scrummaging form, that's  pretty clear. They're not helped by Youngs who is a poor scrummaging and struggles with the basics ie just hooking the ball back.

We've also got 2 locks not renowned for adding a lot in the set piece. We've got to replace Youngs and start Launchbury instead of Lawes imo.

He isn't normally poor at Leicester at has been good at international level before, something isn't clicking with our whole front 5 but i don't know what it is - i'm not sure if it personal related or a coaching issue

[yappysnap]

His Leicester form is a red herring. A he's been there for years, has trained with those players every day for years. And the coaches have gone out of their way to fit him in.

The Leicester pack also has guys like Mulipola and Ayerza who can counterbalance Youngs stature and lack of skill. Likewise Slater at lock helps that a bit.

At Int level Youngs doesn't have that time with the rest of the team, doesn't get that level of focus from the coaches and the pack England have can't make up for his issues.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I have to agree Yappy, we can't afford to keep carrying him.

[Geordie]

I said it all through the game and have said it for months now. The balance of the pack is not right. Too athletic.

Lawes just epitomises it for me.

He shines in the Saints pack like Croft did in the Leicester one because they have power guys around them who make a nice balance. England don't have those power guys.

Billy Vunipola came on and started hammering people both attacking with the ball and in defence.

We need to sort the balance out.

4 Parling
5 Lawes
6 Wood
is lightweight.

Compare that today to Irelands
4 Henderson
5 O'Connell
6 O'Brien

All Aggressive hard carrying yet still mobile.

[FecklessRogue]

After this World Cup Burgess will not play 12 again, he'll be in the back row for Bath. I think that says it all really.

[Geordie]

Yeah he will and Lancaster needs to really look at him there.

[thomh]

I'd replace Parling. Definitely not Lawes. I know people say Parling is vital to the lineout but Tom Wood catches the bulk of our lineout ball even when Parling is playing. I don't accept that Lawes can't call it given how well it went when Hartley and Launchbury were in the team.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'm not sure what Lawes adds bar the odd tackle on a back, he's been very quiet. Parling has shown up better in the last few games imo

[Geordie]

I totally agree Sgt

[thomh]

Oh I accept that I'm not basing that much on the last few games (3 for Lawes), though I've not seen Parling do anything really either.

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