Yet Another Sam Burgess Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Sam Burgess, demigod or not?

[kingelderfield]

He is a 12. How can he be a 6 with no lineout skills? He can't lift or jump or do the necessary work around the fringes of the lineout. Blimey,  the bloke Croft was only ever in the side because he was good in the lineout. The rest of the game he hung out on the wing. Burgess' skills are in the wide open channels where he thrives.

Agreed, he'll break and support well from ruck, maul, lineout and scrum where the lines of attack are spontaneous, though as a flanker not an ic.

You're are right though, and I did think of croft's unique ability when previously mentioning HRH. Especially the tries he scored for the Lions in 09.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Sam absolutely is a 12. Definitely, cuz SL says he's one- altho he's only a decent one. But after the RWC he'll absolutely be a 6 (again). And after learning his trade, he'll be an excellent one.

The impressive thing is that after only 5 minutes in RU he doesn't look out of place at test level.

[lostinwales]

He is a 12. How can he be a 6 with no lineout skills? He can't lift or jump or do the necessary work around the fringes of the lineout. Blimey,  the bloke Croft was only ever in the side because he was good in the lineout. The rest of the game he hung out on the wing. Burgess' skills are in the wide open channels where he thrives.

Oh dear.

[kingelderfield]

Just noticed we play Uruguay at the city of manchester stadium the same evening as the super league grand final at old trafford.....the best league forward in england and all that will be playing 'onion' down the road. It's a bit naughty really.....especially if we're already out of the bleedin cup.

[englandglory4ever]

I think the majority here see what he does at 6 his carrying his tackling his breakdown work as a real plus and thats minimised in midfield. Ive not been as impressed with carrying wider, hes had some issues taking the ball at speed and seems to get out of position in the backs moves to easily. I thought with some intensive training his lineout could be brought up to speed. So if the lineout works you d see him more as a 6? I see you ve changed your previous post to sayh e cant worki n the tight. Why? You seem pretty jealous of the quality work he does at flanker.

So you would have a 6 in the England RWC squad who couldn't work the lineout? And hope you could improve him? Don't you think this idea sounds well, stupid?

[Sgt_Pooly]

To be fair, Burgess should be nowhere the squad as 6 or a 12 as he's not good enough.

Going forward he will be moved from 12 as he lacks the gas & hands. The qualities for 6 he can learn and I agree with others that he could be a good option at BS.

[No 7&1/2]

I think the majority here see what he does at 6 his carrying his tackling his breakdown work as a real plus and thats minimised in midfield. Ive not been as impressed with carrying wider, hes had some issues taking the ball at speed and seems to get out of position in the backs moves to easily. I thought with some intensive training his lineout could be brought up to speed. So if the lineout works you d see him more as a 6? I see you ve changed your previous post to sayh e cant worki n the tight. Why? You seem pretty jealous of the quality work he does at flanker.

So you would have a 6 in the England RWC squad who couldn't work the lineout? And hope you could improve him?  Don't you think this idea sounds well, stupid?

No as he was that good as a 6. Morgan offers some lineout options so paired together and intensive training he was worth the risk. For me I wouldnt even have considered him on performances in a midfield where his partners were often better.

[englandglory4ever]

"You're are right though, and I did think of croft's unique ability when previously mentioning HRH. Especially the tries he scored for the Lions in 09."

Croft was a lightweight. You only saw him twice in a game. 1st was being thrown up in a lineout. Giving rise to the "He's good in the lineout" reasons for selection. 2nd when he had a walk in try on the wing. He was completely absent for the middle bits between lineout and wing play. When did anyone remember his great work in the tight, rucks, mauls, tackling, carrying hard, etc? Never. Burgess is supposed by many, not me, to be "No Good" in the lineout but still they want to play him at 6. Burgess has great hands. He has dropped a ball on the crash its true but show me a centre that hasn't done that. I find the detractors who are obviously jealous of such a talent to be rather tiring.

[Scottrf]

How does the jealousy argument stack up and why aren't they jealous of the other players who would replace him at centre? Especially when a lot of people aren't saying they'd drop him, just that he'd be better at a different position(where he plays all of his rugby). Tiresome.

[Sgt_Pooly]

No hands as in he can't keep hold of the ball, can't pass to a good standard, struggles to offload etc etc. He's also slow for a back which gets mentioned often. How about him not understanding the rules of the game or not knowing where to stand?

"Jelous of his talents"

Eh?

[No 7&1/2]

"You're are right though, and I did think of croft's unique ability when previously mentioning HRH. Especially the tries he scored for the Lions in 09."

Croft was a lightweight. You only saw him twice in a game. 1st was being thrown up in a lineout. Giving rise to the "He's good in the lineout" reasons for selection. 2nd when he had a walk in try on the wing. He was completely absent for the middle bits between lineout and wing play. When did anyone remember his great work in the tight, rucks, mauls, tackling, carrying hard, etc? Never. Burgess is supposed by many, not me, to be "No Good" in the lineout but still they want to play him at 6. Burgess has great hands. He has dropped a ball on the crash its true but show me a centre that hasn't done that. I find the detractors who are obviously jealous of such a talent to be rather tiring.

So you think hes good in the lineout? You seem more of a detractor of him as a 6 compared with anyone else at 12. ps even hes acknowledged hes had some unexpected handling issues.

[englandglory4ever]

No hands as in he can't keep hold of the ball, can't pass to a good standard, struggles to offload etc etc. He's also slow for a back which gets mentioned often. How about him not understanding the rules of the game or not knowing where to stand?

"Jelous of his talents"

Eh?

I think you may be jumping on a broken down bandwagon. He can pass very well indeed. Much better than Barritt IMO. So now we have Lancaster and the whole coaching team selecting a centre to play for England in a RWC tournament after a very long and thorough build up and selection process choosing a player who "No hands as in he can't keep hold of the ball, can't pass to a good standard, struggles to offload etc etc. He's also slow for a back which gets mentioned often. How about him not understanding the rules of the game or not knowing where to stand?"

Now if that's not a highly prejudiced and jealous statement I don't know what is! Think about it!

[Sgt_Pooly]

Why jelous? If I was going to jelous of a rugby union player for their skill set it would be for somebody of a good standard.

If Burgess has all these skills, why is he hiding them from everyone?

[No 7&1/2]

You 2 are opposites. Not sure you can say Burgess hasnt an excellent skill set.

[Sgt_Pooly]

In what what way does he have an excellent skill set for a centre?

Pace - no
Acceleration - no
Positional awareness - no
Strong distribution - no
Kicking game - no

We could go on......

[ChequeredJersey]

I think the majority here see what he does at 6 his carrying his tackling his breakdown work as a real plus and thats minimised in midfield. Ive not been as impressed with carrying wider, hes had some issues taking the ball at speed and seems to get out of position in the backs moves to easily. I thought with some intensive training his lineout could be brought up to speed. So if the lineout works you d see him more as a 6? I see you ve changed your previous post to sayh e cant worki n the tight. Why? You seem pretty jealous of the quality work he does at flanker.

So you would have a 6 in the England RWC squad who couldn't work the lineout? And hope you could improve him?  Don't you think this idea sounds well, stupid?

He could throw in, can't be any worse than  Youngs (joke!)

[No 7&1/2]

In what what way does he have an excellent skill set for a centre?

Pace - no
Acceleration - no
Positional awareness - no
Strong distribution - no
Kicking game - no

We could go on......

Carrying
offloads
ruck work including presentation of the ball
tackling
positional he knows what hes doing at 6.

All suited to a forward but to say hes not a top athlete is wrong.

[kingelderfield]

England team to be annouced tomorrow according 5live, with burgess on the bench

[lostinwales]

"You're are right though, and I did think of croft's unique ability when previously mentioning HRH. Especially the tries he scored for the Lions in 09."

Croft was a lightweight. You only saw him twice in a game. 1st was being thrown up in a lineout. Giving rise to the "He's good in the lineout" reasons for selection. 2nd when he had a walk in try on the wing. He was completely absent for the middle bits between lineout and wing play. When did anyone remember his great work in the tight, rucks, mauls, tackling, carrying hard, etc? Never. Burgess is supposed by many, not me, to be "No Good" in the lineout but still they want to play him at 6. Burgess has great hands. He has dropped a ball on the crash its true but show me a centre that hasn't done that. I find the detractors who are obviously jealous of such a talent to be rather tiring.

And I used to think the funniest guys on 606 were the Scots, and the most 'obsessional' being located somewhere to the west i(And I don't know what the point of answering this is but..)

Croft is/was very fast. This meant a few things.
1) He was often used out wide where his pace made a lot of difference. This was very much a leicester thing but he did similar stuff for the international teams
2) He is often first to the breakdown. He isn't the most powerful breakdown operator but he gets there quicker
3) He probably covers as much or more of the pitch during a match than any other forward out there

He's not a beast in the tight phases but he is OK. He is absolutely a world class lineout operator. Yes he's very much a 'marmite' kind of player but the stuff hes good at he's very good at, which has meant that a lot of coaches have done their best to find a way to fit him in when he's available, Lions downwards

[Sgt_Pooly]

In what what way does he have an excellent skill set for a centre?

Pace - no
Acceleration - no
Positional awareness - no
Strong distribution - no
Kicking game - no

We could go on......

Carrying
offloads
ruck work including presentation of the ball
tackling
positional he knows what hes doing at 6.

All suited to a forward but to say hes not a top athlete is wrong.

I did say he's not suited to 12 and doesn't have the attributes to play there to a good level. I do think he'll make a good 6 so we kind of agree, although I'm yet to see that he can offload to any kind of decent standard.

[No 7&1/2]

Cool, thought it could be that.

[Exiledinborders]

In what what way does he have an excellent skill set for a centre?

Pace - no
Acceleration - no
Positional awareness - no
Strong distribution - no
Kicking game - no

We could go on......

Carrying
offloads
ruck work including presentation of the ball
tackling
positional he knows what hes doing at 6.

All suited to a forward but to say hes not a top athlete is wrong.

I did say he's not suited to 12 and doesn't have the attributes to play there to a good level. I do think he'll make a good 6 so we kind of agree, although I'm yet to see that he can offload to any kind of decent standard.

I agree about his offloading. As often as not he seems to lose the ball in contact.

[englandglory4ever]

In what what way does he have an excellent skill set for a centre?

Pace - no
Acceleration - no
Positional awareness - no
Strong distribution - no
Kicking game - no

We could go on......

Not much different to other England centres then. Twelvetrees and Burrell come to mind. They are Union boys who should do better but big Sam has been selected over and above them. It really makes me laugh when punters think they know different after they have all been in camp for weeks and weeks.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I think everyone else finds it hilarious that you seem to think Lancaster is 100% right in every decision he makes when he's not, his selection can be scrutinised whether you like it or not. It's much easier to debate a point when the only retort you ever have is 'Lancaster picked him so you're wrong', you show so little understanding of the game itself.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Burgess was always going to be involved as the RFU are worried he'll go back to RL (which he probably would of). He's blatantly not good enough currently and I've nobody except yourself suggest otherwise.

[lostinwales]

Burgess was always going to be involved as the RFU are worried he'll go back to RL (which he probably would of). He's blatantly not good enough currently and I've nobody except yourself suggest otherwise.

The RFU didn't put any money into bringing him over so I am not quite sure why the RFU would be worried about him going back to RL. Whatever happens there will be rumors about him going back to RL for as long as he plays union, because he was a very big name in league

I hope he doesn't because in time he could be a very good union player, but we will have more than decent alternatives coming through in the next months and years if he does. Right now he's limited but he has been brought in to do a very specific 'limited' job and one that he seems very suited to.

[englandglory4ever]

I think everyone else finds it hilarious that you seem to think Lancaster is 100% right in every decision he makes when he's not, his selection can be scrutinised whether you like it or not. It's much easier to debate a point when the only retort you ever have is 'Lancaster picked him so you're wrong', you show so little understanding of the game itself.

His selections can be criticised with your own personal opinions but that's all they are. I know who I would choose and it ain't you.

[No 7&1/2]

I think Ben Morgan may be worth a go in the centre.

[englandglory4ever]

"Burgess was always going to be involved as the RFU are worried he'll go back to RL (which he probably would of). He's blatantly not good enough currently and I've nobody except yourself suggest otherwise."

After 30 seconds of searching its possible come up with two on top of SL and his coaches.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3229008/Sam-Burgess-game-changer-England-Rugby-World-Cup-2015-says-Jason-Robinson.html

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/9911620/mike-ford-backs-baths-sam-burgess-to-shine-for-england

I suspect most people are keeping quiet and their fingers crossed that he does well. It is just a little sad that one or two on here want to do him down before the tournament has got going. I think he will bench again on Friday night and if Barritt gets injured will be the starting 12. Get over it and get behind the team or stay out of the way is my best advice. Nobody likes whingers.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I think everyone else finds it hilarious that you seem to think Lancaster is 100% right in every decision he makes when he's not, his selection can be scrutinised whether you like it or not. It's much easier to debate a point when the only retort you ever have is 'Lancaster picked him so you're wrong', you show so little understanding of the game itself.

His selections can be criticised with your own personal opinions but that's all they are. I know who I would choose and it ain't you.

Nor should it be but don't continuously tell others there opinion is irrelevant because of a decision made by Lancaster.

[englandglory4ever]

I think Ben Morgan may be worth a go in the centre.

That's funny cos most back rows could play centre quite easily. Shame you didn't know that.

[englandglory4ever]

"Nor should it be but don't continuously tell others there opinion is irrelevant because of a decision made by Lancaster."

preceded by:-

"I think everyone else finds it hilarious that you seem to think Lancaster is 100% right.."

So you have an in depth knowledge now of "everyone else's" opinions? No, you don't do you?
You just make it up as you go along. Its your opinion and nobody else's isn't it. Of course you are perfectly entitled to it even though I think you are wrong.

[No 7&1/2]

We re all hoping he does a decent job there but you ve criticised Lancaster yourself from playing people in the wrong positions. Its a shame hes not vying for that 6 shirt is all.

[ChequeredJersey]

I think everyone else finds it hilarious that you seem to think Lancaster is 100% right in every decision he makes when he's not, his selection can be scrutinised whether you like it or not. It's much easier to debate a point when the only retort you ever have is 'Lancaster picked him so you're wrong', you show so little understanding of the game itself.

His selections can be criticised with your own personal opinions but that's all they are. I know who I would choose and it ain't you.

So Wood at 8 was a good idea?

[ChequeredJersey]

Mostly SL is right but he has been demonstrably wrong and probably wrong on several occasions

In fairness, I think Burgess can be a very good Union centre. He's not yet, but he can be

[englandglory4ever]

We re all hoping he does a decent job there but you ve criticised Lancaster yourself from playing people in the wrong positions. Its a shame hes not vying for that 6 shirt is all.

I get where your coming from. I too hope he goes well for the team and for the country. He's a guy carrying huge pressure. It would break a lot of people I'm sure.

[englandglory4ever]

"So Wood at 8 was a good idea?"

No, I agree with you it wasn't but it didn't last. Chris Ashton was no good for England either IMO. I criticised SL for that and I still do for Tom Youngs but we are where we are now and I just hope the whole team/squad does well for the country. Including Tom Youngs. Why every time I think of Tom Youngs a Barn Door comes to mind I don't know but it does.

[Sgt_Pooly]

"Burgess was always going to be involved as the RFU are worried he'll go back to RL (which he probably would of). He's blatantly not good enough currently and I've nobody except yourself suggest otherwise."

After 30 seconds of searching its possible come up with two on top of SL and his coaches.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3229008/Sam-Burgess-game-changer-England-Rugby-World-Cup-2015-says-Jason-Robinson.html

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/9911620/mike-ford-backs-baths-sam-burgess-to-shine-for-england

I suspect most people are keeping quiet and their fingers crossed that he does well. It is just a little sad that one or two on here want to do him down before the tournament has got going. I think he will bench again on Friday night and if Barritt gets injured will be the starting 12. Get over it and get behind the team or stay out of the way is my best advice. Nobody likes whingers.

An ex-league player and his coach......great.

There's numerous saying his inclusion is crazy which it is, he's not a good centre.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/another-ex-england-international-criticises-sam-burgess-selection/

[majesticimperialman]

When does SL name the team for this Fridays Game??

[HongKongCherry]

I think Ben Morgan may be worth a go in the centre.

That's funny cos most back rows could play centre quite easily. Shame you didn't know that.

Sorry but that's utter nonsense. For a start the style of distribution and defensive alignment required for each role are polar opposites so the transition is exceptionally difficult. I'm struggling to think of another backrow forward who played in the top flight as a centre bar Burgess and James Forrester. Can you imagine someone like Haskell lining up at 12? It would be as bad as Bergamasco at SH!

[Poorfour]

There's no consensus on Burgess. Half the pundits think he's a great idea, half of them think he's a terrible one. (Well, numerically the antis probably outweigh the pros, but Geech is pro and his opinion is worth as many Joneses or Clearys or Guscotts or Ryans as you care to throw in).

All that really tells us is that nobody actually has an effing clue about how he'll go, except hopefully the England coaches.

I don't believe the RFU has applied any pressure to select him, because the desire to win the RWC trumps favouring any one player. I do believe the coaches see a physical threat in Burgess that offers advantages in attack and defence that no other player offers.

It's equally clear that he's still learning the positional aspects of the game and they are gambling on his rate of improvement much as they gambled that Morgan's fitness would get there (and that Billy V's form will return).

So it's a risk. Most teams are taking a risk on some player or other. This one may have a bigger upside and downside than most (though not compared to being short a hooker), but it's also being blown out of proportion by the press, 'cos it sells papers.

[SecretFly]

Or...he's being told: "Keep looking frustratingly clueless until we tell you you're off the leash. What the enemy don't know will hurt them "

[Scottrf]

Anyone seen a good world cup preview show? Can't find anything.

[LondonTiger]

I'm struggling to think of another backrow forward who played in the top flight as a centre bar Burgess and James Forrester.

Richie Vernon played 20 times in the back row for Scotland between 2009 and 2012. He then converted to centre and is in their WC squad as such, staring at centre in two of their warm up games. Over 3 years between last back row and first centre caps mind.

[kingelderfield]

Anyone seen a good world cup preview show? Can't find anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b069bbky

otherwise not really.....anyone else?

[LondonTiger]

I do believe the coaches see a physical threat in Burgess that offers advantages in attack and defence that no other player offers.

That is the key point. He offers something no-one else does so they were desperate to have him in the squad. At Bath he has looked light years better at 6 than he did at 12 and 13, but there was no vacancy in the back row.

[LondonTiger]

Title changed to reflect where the thread has gone.

[kingelderfield]

Not sure if everyone's heard but reports are that the starting side against Irelend will play friday with the addition of webber and burgess to the bench.

The weather may have cleared come friday night - its crap throughout the week

and the most anti english ref will attempt to either send off or bin as many english players as possible and so by doing ruin the opening game. You heard it here first.

[SecretFly]

Not sure if everyone's heard but reports are that the starting side against Irelend will play friday with the addition of webber and burgess to the bench.

The weather may have cleared come friday night - its crap throughout the week

and the most anti english ref will attempt to either send off or bin as many english players as possible and so by doing ruin the opening game. You heard it here first.

Anti-English ref.................. hmmmm....flicking through my book of Anti to find the rugby section..............................hmmmmm, let me see Anti English ref........................


Jaco Peyper

???

The name doesn't rush fluidly from the tongue?

What did he do to justify the title of Most Anti-English Ref?

[kingelderfield]

Ok obviously nothing scientific but I always feel his interpretations work against us, as opposed to many others who give us a fare crack.

Look since the kiwi ozzy and the ozzy and that dodgy bloke who whistled two too many finals have all now retired, we're going to need a pantomine villan and this bloke is gonna have to do.

No more bilingual irishmen either please.

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