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England v Fiji, 18 September

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England v Fiji, 18 September - Page 5 Empty England v Fiji, 18 September

Post by George Carlin Tue 15 Sep 2015, 10:22 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Fiji, 18 September - Page 5 Englan10   England v Fiji, 18 September - Page 5 Fiji_r10
ENGLAND v FIJI
18 September 2015
KO: 20:00 BST
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV and BBC Radio 5 live

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Touch judges: John Lacey (Ireland) & Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

5 Played 5
5 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
0 Lost 5
210 Points 83

B. Recent Form

10 November 2012
England 54 - 12 Fiji
Twickenham

20 October 1999
England 45 - 24 Fiji
Twickenham

20 July 1991
Fiji 12 - 28 England
National Stadium, Suva

04 November 1989
England 58 - 23 Fiji
Twickenham

17 June 1988
Fiji 12 - 25 England
National Stadium, Suva

C. Teams

ENGLAND
England v Fiji, 18 September - Page 5 Rosamu10
Mike Brown (Harlequins); Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby); Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Joe Marler (Harlequins), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby).

Replacements: Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby).

FIJI
England v Fiji, 18 September - Page 5 Nalini10
1. Campese Ma’afu
2. Sunia Koto
3. Manasa Saulo
4. Apisalome Ratuniyarawa
5. Leone Nakarawa
6. Dominiko Waqaniburotu
7. Akapusi Qera (Captain)
8. Sakiusa Masi Matadigo

9. Nikola Matawalu
10. Ben Volavola
11. Nemani Nadolo
12. Gabiriele Lovobalavu
13. Vereniki Goneva
14. Waisea Nayacalevu
15. Metuisela Talebula

16. Tuapati Talemaitoga
17. Peni Ravai
18. Isei Colati
19. Tevita Cavubati
20. Peceli Yato
21. Nemia Kenatale
22. Joshua Matavesi
23. Aseli Tikoirotuma


Last edited by George Carlin on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 11:16 am; edited 4 times in total
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England v Fiji, 18 September - Page 5 Empty Re: England v Fiji, 18 September

Post by sportform Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:44 pm

nathan wrote:
sportform wrote:
Notch wrote:Oooooh. The big screen may be his undoing...
They don't show controversial replays on the big screen in football. Maybe a little be cheeky by those in control.

?

It always happens in Rugby
As mentioned above a) it looks embarrassing for the sport and b) would they have shown it if it was an England try?

By all means have someone review all tries.


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Post by Notch Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:45 pm

Too much of a good thing Griff! Very Happy
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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:45 pm

Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

i think they'll only pull up the big mistakes which that was a massive knock on. Remember the only reason why it was stopped was because the red spotted it on the big screen.

But i know what you mean, it will end up like American football

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Post by wolfball Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:45 pm

It's not the english players fault, but this carry on from the officials will turn many neutrals against the hosts. It's becoming a bloody parody.

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Post by slartibartfast Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:45 pm

so fiji score a perectly good try and they go to tmo? even the memebers of the press are shrugging their sholuders in the background!?
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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:45 pm

Impressed with Brown and Morgan so far...
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:46 pm

nathan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah England's scrum is a concern.


very much, i can't understand why it's gone backwards so much - i can't remember the last time it wsa like this!

One bad scrum before the try aside it's been alright. I think the Fijian tight head is doing an exceptional job of unsettling Marler and really had him on toast before the try. Remember there's more muscle to push Fiji on there is on the English side, they are big blokes.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:47 pm

Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

No, if a referee has a clear view himself he will award it without going upstairs. If he doesn't have a clear view, he will ask the linesmen. If they have a clear view and see the try was scored then the referee will award it. Only if the referee and the linesmen do not see, will it go upstairs. Unfortunately another factor is that the TMO can intervene whenever he chooses. So if he thinks that the referee or linesmen have missed something he may ask to view it again.

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Post by Notch Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:47 pm

wolfball wrote:It's not the english players fault, but this carry on from the officials will turn many neutrals against the hosts. It's becoming a bloody parody.

I think referees are just so petrified of getting anything wrong they are second guessing themselves and overusing the TMO.
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Post by Duty281 Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:47 pm

slartibartfast wrote:so fiji score a perectly good try and they go to tmo? even the memebers of the press are shrugging their sholuders in the background!?

I thought they wanted to check if the scorer was offside, but they didn't even look at that? Headscratch

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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:48 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
nathan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah England's scrum is a concern.


very much, i can't understand why it's gone backwards so much - i can't remember the last time it wsa like this!

One bad scrum before the try aside it's been alright. I think the Fijian tight head is doing an exceptional job of unsettling Marler and really had him on toast before the try. Remember there's more muscle to push Fiji on there is on the English side, they are big blokes.

but its gone backwards in the last 3-4 games, perhaps they haven't been focusing on it as much as they normally do

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:48 pm

nathan wrote:
Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

i think they'll only pull up the big mistakes which that was a massive knock on. Remember the only reason why it was stopped was because the red spotted it on the big screen.

But i know what you mean, it will end up like American football

It clearly wasn't a try. But what I mean is that normally a big screen in the ground would show a 'normal' replay of the try, but that seemed to be more of a TMO analysis which I'm not sure the ref requested. We're on sticky ground if the TMO starts acting independently to influence the ref, unless of course that's their remit. But I'm not sure it is?!

Deffo no try though.

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Post by Wi11 Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:48 pm

Comment from a non rugby friend: it's very stop start isn't it? Lots of time watching the replays.

Ffs. Let's ditch the tmo.

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Post by Geordie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:49 pm

Jesus man England. This is poor.

No other "contenders " will be concerned watching this.

Where's the muscle and power!! They've swung too much to athletic....

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:49 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

No, if a referee has a clear view himself he will award it without going upstairs. If he doesn't have a clear view, he will ask the linesmen. If they have a clear view and see the try was scored then the referee will award it. Only if the referee and the linesmen do not see, will it go upstairs. Unfortunately another factor is that the TMO can intervene whenever he chooses. So if he thinks that the referee or linesmen have missed something he may ask to view it again.

Ah OK. I didn't realise the TMO can call the shots. Thought he had to be called into action by the ref. OK

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Post by wolfball Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:49 pm

Notch wrote:
wolfball wrote:It's not the english players fault, but this carry on from the officials will turn many neutrals against the hosts. It's becoming a bloody parody.

I think referees are just so petrified of getting anything wrong they are second guessing themselves and overusing the TMO.

Agreed, but i doubt we would have seen that try reversal if it was the other way, that's what's annoying. I think England can beat Fiji handy enough without the officials acting like this.

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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:50 pm

Griff wrote:
nathan wrote:
Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

i think they'll only pull up the big mistakes which that was a massive knock on. Remember the only reason why it was stopped was because the red spotted it on the big screen.

But i know what you mean, it will end up like American football

It clearly wasn't a try. But what I mean is that normally a big screen in the ground would show a 'normal' replay of the try, but that seemed to be more of a TMO analysis which I'm not sure the ref requested. We're on sticky ground if the TMO starts acting independently to influence the ref, unless of course that's their remit. But I'm not sure it is?!

Deffo no try though.

I don't think it was a tmo view, it was just a view from the side

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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jesus man England. This is poor.

No other "contenders " will be concerned watching this.

Where's the muscle and power!! They've swung too much to athletic....

We're only 40 minutes in to the first game of a world cup. has to be very basic

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:52 pm

Should have been Fiji penalty!

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:52 pm

nathan wrote:
Griff wrote:
nathan wrote:
Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

i think they'll only pull up the big mistakes which that was a massive knock on. Remember the only reason why it was stopped was because the red spotted it on the big screen.

But i know what you mean, it will end up like American football

It clearly wasn't a try. But what I mean is that normally a big screen in the ground would show a 'normal' replay of the try, but that seemed to be more of a TMO analysis which I'm not sure the ref requested. We're on sticky ground if the TMO starts acting independently to influence the ref, unless of course that's their remit. But I'm not sure it is?!

Deffo no try though.

I don't think it was a tmo view, it was just a view from the side

OK I'm probably just confusing it with when he did then get the TMO replays. I've had a few wines! No biggie!

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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:53 pm

seeing that advert break thing in the top left is like going back 10 years

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:53 pm

Griff wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

No, if a referee has a clear view himself he will award it without going upstairs. If he doesn't have a clear view, he will ask the linesmen. If they have a clear view and see the try was scored then the referee will award it. Only if the referee and the linesmen do not see, will it go upstairs. Unfortunately another factor is that the TMO can intervene whenever he chooses. So if he thinks that the referee or linesmen have missed something he may ask to view it again.

Ah OK. I didn't realise the TMO can call the shots. Thought he had to be called into action by the ref. OK

Not anymore, which is why people think the TMO probably has too much of an influence on the game. If there is suspected foul play that is missed he can ask the referee to stop the game as well. Which is why it is becoming so stop-start.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:53 pm

Impressed with Brown and Morgan so far...
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Post by trebellbobaggins Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:53 pm

Fiji very much back in the game here. Could go either way couldn't it.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:54 pm

Impressed with Brown and Morgan so far...
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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:54 pm

Griff wrote:
nathan wrote:
Griff wrote:
nathan wrote:
Griff wrote:All we want is consistency, but that means that EVERY try for EVERY team in EVERY game not only needs to be replayed on the big screen but needs to be show the grounding from every angle like the Fiji disallowed one. Will it happen? I hope it doesn't or it will ruin the game. But that would be consistency.

i think they'll only pull up the big mistakes which that was a massive knock on. Remember the only reason why it was stopped was because the red spotted it on the big screen.

But i know what you mean, it will end up like American football

It clearly wasn't a try. But what I mean is that normally a big screen in the ground would show a 'normal' replay of the try, but that seemed to be more of a TMO analysis which I'm not sure the ref requested. We're on sticky ground if the TMO starts acting independently to influence the ref, unless of course that's their remit. But I'm not sure it is?!

Deffo no try though.


I don't think it was a tmo view, it was just a view from the side

OK  I'm probably just confusing it with when he did then get the TMO replays. I've had a few wines! No biggie!

haha, no worries

I agree with everyone on here that the ref team are having a bit to much involvement and that Fiji have been unlucky in a few calls - but i suppose that can happen if you are on the back foot

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Post by tigertattie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:54 pm

So why wasn't May holding on after he was tackled shown to the ref???
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Post by Davie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:55 pm

trebellbobaggins wrote:Fiji very much back in the game here.  Could go either way couldn't it.

No

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Post by eirebilly Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:55 pm

Interesting half. Fiji are still very much in this and will be fairly confident in the second half. I really do feel that Fiji have lived under the microscope, even if the decisions were correct the officials have certainly focused more on them than England.

Some big concerns for England are their lineout, scrum and the ease at which Fiji get over the gainline. Not sure how many handling areas from Fiji but if the controlled the ball better in attack, they will certainly push England.
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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:55 pm

Just like i have been saying Fiji are no pushovers....England deserve to be in the lead at half time, but need to tighten up in the scrum, Fiji seem to have a slight edge in that department.

Looking forward to the second half.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:57 pm

Here's a tip England - how about catching and holding the ball a bit more
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Post by TJ Fri 18 Sep 2015, 8:57 pm

Well I asked that England attack and don't go for a borathon / penalty fest and they have done. Well done for that.

fiji a bit hard done by on the refs decisions but thats the way it goes. Every breakdown you will get as many interpretations as there are people watching it.

Englands pace out wide and passing is good but they will be worried 'cos Fiji go forward every time they get the ball


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Post by Davie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:00 pm

May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

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Post by TJ Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:01 pm

England have learnt the lesson Ireland taught them as well - very good chasing and catching kicks

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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:02 pm

Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

because they go on the outcome, the outcome in this instance wasn't bad at all

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Post by Notch Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:02 pm

When have England ever gone for a bore-athon lately though? Weren't they the top try scorers in the Six Nations?

Everyone knows us Irish are the boring ones Leprechaun
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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:02 pm

Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

Because the law says that if the legs are lifted above the horizontal then the player needs to be returned safely to the floor, which he was. So no dangerous play. If anything Tom Youngs (I think) made it look worse by driving through holding on to his own players legs and keeping them elevated!

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Post by slartibartfast Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:02 pm

even clive wood wood is saying it should be 18 15
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Post by TJ Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:03 pm

Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

Because they made a decent attempt to put him down safely hence under the law its a pen only. If he had been dropped it would have been yellow but he wasn't - the Fijian controlled his descent to the floor

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:03 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Here's a tip England - how about catching and holding the ball a bit more

That would help i guess.

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Post by Xamogm Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:03 pm

England look like a less accurate version of SA or Argentina 2007. 100% predictable.

In all seriousness how many of the English team would be considered top 3 in their position globally? They cannot win this tournament on ability but rather on structure, accuracy and game plan....at the moment not looking good.....

Reffing may get you through the group games but not to the final.

1st scrum = boring in = 1st penalty = the English gameplan

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Post by justified sinner Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:04 pm

Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

Imo they returned him to ground safely, so no real issue with the current WR guidance on this.

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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:05 pm

Notch wrote:When have England ever gone for a bore-athon lately though? Weren't they the top try scorers in the Six Nations?

Everyone knows us Irish are the boring ones Leprechaun

its been raining and is probably greesy

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Post by trebellbobaggins Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:05 pm

They have some backs that are anything but boring and predictable Xam.


Last edited by trebellbobaggins on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by slartibartfast Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:06 pm

i hate it when the ref's get in the way
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Post by Davie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:06 pm

TJ wrote:
Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

Because they made a decent attempt to put him down safely hence under the law its a pen only.  If he had been dropped it would have been yellow but he wasn't - the Fijian controlled his descent to the floor

OK I get that is the law. Comes down to personal interpretation. Personally I didn't see any attempt to put him down safely, but others clearly did.

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Post by offload Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:07 pm

For once I agree with Woodward.  Once a try has been given, it's a try.  The ref should look at all the angles before if he's not sure.  Very worrying precedence.
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Post by nathan Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:07 pm

Davie wrote:
TJ wrote:
Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

Because they made a decent attempt to put him down safely hence under the law its a pen only.  If he had been dropped it would have been yellow but he wasn't - the Fijian controlled his descent to the floor

OK I get that is the law. Comes down to personal interpretation. Personally I didn't see any attempt to put him down safely, but others clearly did.

the only peoples interpretation that matters are the refs

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Post by Geordie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:09 pm

nathan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Jesus man England. This is poor.

No other "contenders " will be concerned watching this.

Where's the muscle and power!! They've swung too much to athletic....

We're only 40 minutes in to the first game of a world cup. has to be very basic

But Nathan everyone is watching this. We should be putting down a massive marker and challenge.

We're stuttering.

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Post by Davie Fri 18 Sep 2015, 9:10 pm

nathan wrote:
Davie wrote:
TJ wrote:
Davie wrote:May have been covered in the first couple of pages but I don't understand why the leg lifting wasn't penalised more in the early stages. I thought that sort of thing was top of the hit list for officials.

It wasn't terrible but seems to set a bit of a precedent

Because they made a decent attempt to put him down safely hence under the law its a pen only.  If he had been dropped it would have been yellow but he wasn't - the Fijian controlled his descent to the floor

OK I get that is the law. Comes down to personal interpretation. Personally I didn't see any attempt to put him down safely, but others clearly did.

the only peoples interpretation that matters are the refs

Thank you for pointing that out. I was clearly under the misapprehension that it was only my interpretation that counted Rolling Eyes

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