3rd QF England v Fiji - Stade de Marseille

England: 15. Marcus Smith 14. Jonny May  13. Joe Marchant  12. Manu Tuilagi  11. Elliot Daly 10. Owen Farrell (c)9. Alex Mitchell 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Dan Cole 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Courtney Lawes 7. Tom Curry 8. Ben Earl

Replacements: 16. Theo Dan  17. Joe Marler  18. Kyle Sinckler 19. George Martin  20. Billy Vunipola  21. Danny Care  22. George Ford  23. Ollie Lawrence  

Fiji: 1. Eroni Mawi 2. Tevita Ikanivere 3. Luke Tagi 4. Isoa Nasilasila 5. Albert Tuisue 6. Lekima Tagitagivalu 7. Levani Botia 8. Viliame Mata 9. Frank Lomani 10. Vilimoni Botitu 11. Semi Radradra 12. Josua Tuisova 13. Waisea Nayacalevu (c) 14. Vinaya Habosi 15. Ilaisa Droasese

Replacements: 16. Samuel Matavesi 17. Peni Ravai 18. Mesake Doge 19. Meli Derenalagi 20. Vilive Miramira 21. Simione Kuruvoli 22. Iosefo Masi 23. Sireli Maqala

Referee: Mathieu Raynal TMO: Ben Whitehouse

Assistant referees: Nic Berry (Australia) and Pierre Broussett (France)

Farrell at 10 and Smith at 15 for the QF apparently.

If so I'm really happy that we are sticking with two playmakers. I think the system they've built needs it. Which two started from Farrell, Ford and Smith I'm less concerned by. Having two of them starting is the bigger issue for me.

I think Fiji are a good opponent to start Smith there in a higher profile game as well. Their kicking with Muntz injured largely comes from 9. Both their SHs are quality players but it does telegraph your kicks more if it's predominantly from one position. Whilst chasing is a weaker part of their game.

Shifting Marchant, who's been excellent defending the 13 channel, back to the toughest position defensively makes sense for Fiji. Particularly when Nayacalevu has had a terrific tournament. As does having a big lump opposite Tuisova.

Mixed reports of whether it will be May and Daly on the wings or Steward shifted out there. If Fiji are using Radrada on the wing then Steward opposite him wouldn't be a bad matchup. You can target Radrada in the air but also have a unit defending against him to try to prevent his offloading game.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Daly 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Steward 15.Smith

16.Dan 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Martin 20.Ludlam 21.Care 22.Ford 23.Lawrence

I'd be pretty happy with that as a selection all considered.

I would be starting Lawrence at 12. Tuilagi's defence has been shocking. Apart from that one big hit after the first 2 phases he's all over the shop

carpet baboon wrote:I would be starting Lawrence at 12. Tuilagi's defence has been shocking. Apart from that one big hit after the first 2 phases he's all over the shop

A QF is a fairly risky time to be starting with a new 10-12-13 line, albeit one that played a bit last weekend

Maybe. It's also quite a risky time to be having your best 10 on the bench, and starting another 10 at fullback, and a fullback on the wing. So what's one more experiment?

Also I'm not sure people appreciate just how bad Manu's defence has been. Without marchant covering the repeated holes he leaves I'm not sure England would still be in the tournament.

To be fair to him he has been shunted from 12 to 13 and back again so many times I can understand a few lapses. And sometimes it looks like he doesn't quite realise he has lost a yard or two of pace.

Manu at 12 will be OK

Poorfour wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I would be starting Lawrence at 12. Tuilagi's defence has been shocking. Apart from that one big hit after the first 2 phases he's all over the shop

A QF is a fairly risky time to be starting with a new 10-12-13 line, albeit one that played a bit last weekend

Manu's defence at 12 has also been fine this world cup. At 13 Vs Samoa he looked very exposed but at 12 it makes sense as he's more physical than Lawrence and Fiji have some big ball carriers they're going to run down the 10/12 channel. Lawrence currently provides good impact off the bench though I'd like to see us use him earlier in the game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I would be starting Lawrence at 12. Tuilagi's defence has been shocking. Apart from that one big hit after the first 2 phases he's all over the shop

A QF is a fairly risky time to be starting with a new 10-12-13 line, albeit one that played a bit last weekend

Manu's defence at 12 has also been fine this world cup. At 13 Vs Samoa he looked very exposed but at 12 it makes sense as he's more physical than Lawrence and Fiji have some big ball carriers they're going to run down the 10/12 channel. Lawrence currently provides good impact off the bench though I'd like to see us use him earlier in the game.

I agree, Fiji will likely bring the house and send it down the 10/12 channel. It's what I would do if I were them.

The defence has been bad all over the shop most of the tournament. Its not just Tuilagi.

The leaking of the team suggests Ford to the bench with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 12. Strangely they say Marchant on the wing and Daly at 13 albeit those two will be swapping according to the circumstances. Smith at 15 and May the other winger completes the back 3. Steward may miss out completely.

Quarter final of the world cup and it all seems a bit throw stuff at a wall and see what sticks.

Fiji looked out on their feet against Portugal so I can see an England win by 10-15 points.

The ongoing lack of continuity in the backs for England leaves me inclined to think they will continue to fail to click, and at best they will win by a score. Looking at overall results for both teams this year, it's probably 60:40 in England's favour with a 'par' winning margin of about 7 points (and let's be honest, continuing to perform at the level shown thus far isn't much to write home about). If England have been holding back then now's the time to show it and do more than that. Get sent home by Fiji and serious questions need to be asked of the management.

Big wrote:The ongoing lack of continuity in the backs for England leaves me inclined to think they will continue to fail to click, and at best they will win by a score.  Looking at overall results for both teams this year, it's probably 60:40 in England's favour with a 'par' winning margin of about 7 points (and let's be honest, continuing to perform at the level shown thus far isn't much to write home about).  If England have been holding back then now's the time to show it and do more than that.  Get sent home by Fiji and serious questions need to be asked of the management.

I know what you mean, I just can't believe England will be that poor again.

With regards to the bit in bold, on the other hand win & suddenly you've done well at a tournament that you had no real hope of doing well in.

Oakdene wrote:

Big wrote:The ongoing lack of continuity in the backs for England leaves me inclined to think they will continue to fail to click, and at best they will win by a score.  Looking at overall results for both teams this year, it's probably 60:40 in England's favour with a 'par' winning margin of about 7 points (and let's be honest, continuing to perform at the level shown thus far isn't much to write home about).  If England have been holding back then now's the time to show it and do more than that.  Get sent home by Fiji and serious questions need to be asked of the management.

I know what you mean, I just can't believe England will be that poor again.

With regards to the bit in bold, on the other hand win & suddenly you've done well at a tournament that you had no real hope of doing well in.

Not really. I do think it's a bit of an odd tournament in that the way the draw has panned out, anything less than getting to the semi would be a massive disappointment, but anything more would be a delightful surprise. It's kind of weird to think of a semi-final appearance as an 'okay' outcome, given Ireland have been a good side for a long time now and have never got that far.

Big wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

Big wrote:The ongoing lack of continuity in the backs for England leaves me inclined to think they will continue to fail to click, and at best they will win by a score.  Looking at overall results for both teams this year, it's probably 60:40 in England's favour with a 'par' winning margin of about 7 points (and let's be honest, continuing to perform at the level shown thus far isn't much to write home about).  If England have been holding back then now's the time to show it and do more than that.  Get sent home by Fiji and serious questions need to be asked of the management.

I know what you mean, I just can't believe England will be that poor again.

With regards to the bit in bold, on the other hand win & suddenly you've done well at a tournament that you had no real hope of doing well in.

Not really.  I do think it's a bit of an odd tournament in that the way the draw has panned out, anything less than getting to the semi would be a massive disappointment, but anything more would be a delightful surprise.  It's kind of weird to think of a semi-final appearance as an 'okay' outcome, given Ireland have been a good side for a long time now and have never got that far.

I'm not sure many English fans would have said that before you guys beat Argentina mind.

Same for us Welsh mind.

Oakdene wrote:

I'm not sure many English fans would have said that before you guys beat Argentina mind.

Same for us Welsh mind.

Probably fair - I wouldn't fancy England's chances against Wales right now! Gatland seems to have worked his usual magic to get the team playing well for a world cup.

The draw always meant one of Wales, Aus, Eng and Argentina were eyeing up a semi-final without having to beat a top 5 side. Fiji were always the favoured dark horses with some serious talent. They absolutely could beat England but they have had to rely on their best players repeatedly and therefore some tiredness may kick in. Especially after all the emotional stuff they have been dealing with.

England meanwhile continue to shuffle their players around trying to find a formation that actually works. That is fantastic when you are in the knock out phases of the RWC. Ideally you would have all your different combinations tested through at least 2 years of playing together. But having said that we have loads of caps and experience within the team. The forwards normally dictate who wins the match and our boys need to properly step up. Disrupt their line out, out scrummage them and at least go toe to toe at the break down. Botia is just one man so target him.

I think many of us are hoping that the S&C work now pays dividends and we see a really energetic and powerful England for the full 80. A repeat of the Samoa performance and we will deservedly be going home.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The defence has been bad all over the shop most of the tournament. Its not just Tuilagi.

3 tries conceded in 4 games says otherwise, especially when one was scored when a man down and with the game already won, and the other two in a game where qualification had already been secured. It's improved a lot since the 6N and warm ups.

The key weaknesses are that it's based around getting up in midfield and preventing the ball going wide - if the opposition get around it, England tend to concede yards - and there's a vulnerability around kick passes to the corner of the goal line.

However, England did a good job of shutting down most of the midfield attack they faced and the goal line defence has generally been excellent. It's also worth noting that that style of press defence recognises that some tackles will be missed in midfield and is ok with that as long as the cover is there and it stops the attack getting round the defence.

I think it will be enough for Fiji. The big question is whether it can be tightened up enough to keep out the other teams in the final 4, who are likely to be better at exploiting weak spots and more ruthless in the red zone.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The defence has been bad all over the shop most of the tournament. Its not just Tuilagi.

3 tries conceded in 4 games says otherwise, especially when one was scored when a man down and with the game already won, and the other two in a game where qualification had already been secured. It's improved a lot since the 6N and warm ups.

The key weaknesses are that it's based around getting up in midfield and preventing the ball going wide - if the opposition get around it, England tend to concede yards - and there's a vulnerability around kick passes to the corner of the goal line.

However, England did a good job of shutting down most of the midfield attack they faced and the goal line defence has generally been excellent. It's also worth noting that that style of press defence recognises that some tackles will be missed in midfield and is ok with that as long as the cover is there and it stops the attack getting round the defence.

I think it will be enough for Fiji. The big question is whether it can be tightened up enough to keep out the other teams in the final 4, who are likely to be better at exploiting weak spots and more ruthless in the red zone.

Yeah that's the detriment of straight stats ain't it. Think we've been quite lucky with how the opposition have managed to butcher some good opportunities. If we concede several tries this weekend I think it would be more a continuation than something abnormal.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The defence has been bad all over the shop most of the tournament. Its not just Tuilagi.

Yet only SA and France have conceded less points.....strange.

(Sorry PF, just seen your post).

Oakdene wrote:Fiji looked out on their feet against Portugal so I can see an England win by 10-15 points.

The problem with this argument is that England were equally poor against Samoa. Different game and different levels of motivation are likely to make a difference to how the players perform. Hopefully that means that the England pack show up and show some real determination to create go forward ball, and that we can cut out the stupid mistakes.

dummy_half wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Fiji looked out on their feet against Portugal so I can see an England win by 10-15 points.

The problem with this argument is that England were equally poor against Samoa. Different game and different levels of motivation are likely to make a difference to how the players perform. Hopefully that means that the England pack show up and show some real determination to create go forward ball, and that we can cut out the stupid mistakes.

I think the difference is whilst England looked clueless & a little of out ideas, they didn't look knackered at all.

Poorfour wrote:

I think it will be enough for Fiji. The big question is whether it can be tightened up enough to keep out the other teams in the final 4, who are likely to be better at exploiting weak spots and more ruthless in the red zone.

I think there's an easy answer to that question, but I'd absolutely love to be proved wrong!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The defence has been bad all over the shop most of the tournament. Its not just Tuilagi.

Yet only SA and France have conceded less points.....strange.

(Sorry PF, just seen your post).

Yeah, much like I was saying back in 2020 that despite the ticks in the win box, all was not well.

Beeb (podcast): George - "It would be wrong of us to try to dismiss it. We are a much better team now than we were then but there are some clear things we have to take away.

"[Defence coach] Kevin Sinfield has been very clear about reminding us and showing us clips. It hurts watching us defend like that and letting Fiji run riot at Twickenham.

"We sat back and waited for them to offload, we waited for them to line break and we waited for them to scrum against us. We can't do that his weekend and he [Sinfield] has made sure we're fully aware we probably owe them one.

"We have to make sure we take our lessons from that and be a better team this week. We have to express ourselves and put our England imprint onto the field."

Defeat by Fiji was their fifth in six Tests under Steve Borthwick heading into the tournament, before an opening-game win against Argentina kick-started their Pool D campaign in France.

England reached the last eight as group winners after claiming victory in all four games.

Having qualified for the knockout stages, England had to come from behind to limp to victory against Samoa in a performance George says was "flat".

The 32-year-old continued: "There is no excuse to perform like that. It was very flat and that worried me at the time.

"The best thing about the Argentina week was the build-up. We had just lost to Fiji with a really poor, low-energy performance.

"The build-up throughout that week was awesome and I knew that performance was coming in how we defended and how we fought.

"It wasn't perfect and our attack didn't quite gel but we saw a difference. It has been a very similar feel for us this week.

"There are clear things for us to go after, and on top of that you have the Fiji game at Twickenham and that little bit of hurt and fear that we can't perform like that again. It is fuel to the fire."

A lot of what went wrong defensively vs Fiji is what's remained but not against sides that are as good as them. George may well be right that England are slightly better and I think Fiji the other way with some injuries. You'd expect that England would be winning more out of 10 than Fiji. No mention of the fitness reasons though.

The year's 2036. England have won 9 Six Nations and two RWCs under Borthwick. He's taken a couple of sabbaticals to lead successful Lions tours. It's all culminated in him discovering a renewable energy source to save the Earth from oblivion. Borthwick's car pulls into Broadcasting House for an interview about his achievements. Perplexingly, there is still a bloke in a mask who goes by a numerical pseudonym waving a banner saying, "He's still a useless f***ing c**t". It remains a balanced and compelling argument.

The year is 2023. Borthwick has led us to a 4th place 6 nations finish record home defeats and a first loss ever to Fiji. There is no need to make stuff up as he's useless.

And it's been so dull.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The year is 2023. Borthwick has led us to a 4th place 6 nations finish record home defeats and a first loss ever to Fiji. There is no need to make stuff up as he's useless.

And it's been so dull.

This year does not reflect well thus far, and realistically he has two games left to prove any kind of progress.

But useless? His short stint at Tigers as head coach going from relegation fodder to winning prem., support coach with England from 2016-2019 with 2 6N wins and a world cup final, before that support coach as Japan break their way into world top 10 and get that famous win over SA. I'm not convinced he's got the experience yet for the job he is in, and maybe he's better suited to a more specialist role - but he isn't useless.

Would him to go back to be a support coach for England don't get me wrong. Just an Andy Robinson though. Thus far. Useless.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would him to go back to be a support coach for England don't get me wrong. Just an Andy Robinson though. Thus far. Useless.

A support role? Head of PR?

Spoke to my friend the other day. He is one of the biggest rugby fans I know and was in Japan 4 years ago and watched that amazing semi-final live (lucky bar steward). He simply cannot get enthused by England at all this year, saying it's all down to the style we play. The attack has no impact whatsoever and the backs we have have little or no X Factor.

That coming from a lifelong fan who is normally a diehard England supporter pretty much sums up where we are. The style of play is rubbish, it's not that effective and the entire gameplan is driven by a dull set-up. Players seem to afraid to do things with a bit of flair. Statistics only tell part of the story. That little extra 5% at the top is what we need, and it's missing.

I said this the other day to a different friend: all the love for the game from the England players has vanished, and it's sad to see. I kind of WANT Borthwick's England to lose, as hopefully it'd be the kick up the butt we need for a better system and/or players.

England from 2019 would probably destroy today's team. They would also be distraught at what we've become.

No Steward, no Ben Youngs.

15. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 28 caps)
14. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 76 caps)
13. Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 23 caps)
12. Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 56 caps)
11. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 62 caps)
10. Owen Farrell – captain (Saracens, 109 caps)
9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
1. Ellis Genge – vice-captain (Bristol Bears, 55 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 82 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 104 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 73 caps)
5. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes – vice-captain (Northampton Saints, 103 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 47 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 22 caps)

Replacements

16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 6 caps)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 86 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 66 caps)
19. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 73 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 93 caps)
22. George Ford – vice-captain (Sale Sharks, 89 caps)
23. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)

Farrell over Ford, it's laughable.

Duty281 wrote:Farrell over Ford, it's laughable.

Ford is in the 23 (and still a vice captain). Borthwick probably didn't like the way Fiji ran down Ford's channel in the warm-up game, and wants to give them more to think about.

I'd have preferred Ford at 10, but glad to see a proper centre partnership - and if tactics remain the same selection at 10 is kind of irrelevant.  Good for Smith getting the start, I suspect we will revert back to Steward for a semi-final if we get there, but it's a good call for Fiji.  There are plenty of decent forwards there, they just need to play with some intent; carry hard and deliver some decent quality ball.

Fiji would be sending runners down the 10 channel allday with Ford there - Farrell is a much better defender. And I don't think the gameplan is to win the game by outrunning Fiji. I expect lots of kick chase and kick for position and hope to get penalties for Farrell to kick, I am sure he has learnt from the Samoan shot clock issue.

Quite happy with the England selection as a Scotland fan. It means Borthwick is failing to adapt to what the eye test is showing. If England win this, his job is likely secure for at least two years and his conservative selection policy/game plan is likely to hold England back.

And England should win this even with picking Farrell over Ford and choosing an undersized FH at full back (being cynical, the Pacific Islanders are not known for tackling low and Smith taking high balls will require Fiji's chasers to be very disciplined).

For Fiji, hopefully this week has been about getting in the right frame of mind. They have been off the boil for a couple of games and last week was hopefully the wake-up call needed to get them up for this. A semi-final would be a huge boost for their country.

Fingers crossed for an interesting, attacking game of rugby.

Vunipola over Ludlam FFS

Finally Steward is dropped.....

lostinwales wrote:Vunipola over Ludlam FFS

Exactly this. Why is he even in the squad? He brings nothing but excess chunk.

Vunipola can carry the ball around the edges of rucks and mauls into waiting defenders and still make a yard or two.  Ludlam like the rest of the England backrowers is more of an open field carrier and won't make the hard yards running into heavy traffic.  It is the same with Martin over Ribbans.  It is a case of horses for courses by the ever pragmatic Borthwick, who wants to play a tight, grinding game rather than get into a run fest.

Mr Bounce wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Vunipola over Ludlam FFS

Exactly this. Why is he even in the squad? He brings nothing but excess chunk.

One recent analysis says he adds real value in fielding and returning kick-offs.

It's an interesting selection. Not sure it equates to much if we simply kick the hell out of the ball again. Smith in his first start at full back and from my guess, Daly as cover?

nlpnlp wrote:Vunipola can carry the ball around the edges of rucks and mauls into waiting defenders and still make a yard or two.  Ludlam like the rest of the England backrowers is more of an open field carrier and won't make the hard yards running into heavy traffic.  It is the same with Martin over Ribbans.  It is a case of horses for courses by the ever pragmatic Borthwick, who wants to play a tight, grinding game rather than get into a run fest.

Doubt this is true anymore

No 7&1/2 wrote:..Smith in his first start at full back..

Second. He started against Chile.

lostinwales wrote:Vunipola over Ludlam FFS

My thoughts exactly and Martin and no Ribbans

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:..Smith in his first start at full back..

Second. He started against Chile.

Oh of course. Still kinda just ignore that match and have completely forgot.