AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

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Or Saints keeping Ashton.

I don't see that as an issue myself as there are only so many players to go around and they're trying to compete with clubs at the top. The bit at the bottom you just mean you'd like Saracens to compete with the French surely? That's easier said than done as although we thought they were playing to different rules Bath and Saracens were playing to the same and were still struggling.

Only so many players to go around? Disagree. The amount of English players floating around is high. If you can develop from within and grow players then that's good.

England have been poor at transitioning from U20s to international level and some of that responsibility needs to come from the clubs.

The transition from Tigers player to international seems to have stopped at the moment. Yes I know there are players like Slater and Kitchener but neither have made the step up yet.

Quins have many talented youngsters but none of the newer ones have stepped up yet.

I want to see the likes of the Chilsolm bros,Walker and Sinckler - come of age. Not just stay as potential.

As for Sarries, I personally want to see more of the youngsters.

Playing to the same? Still struggling? Not sure what you mean by either of those.

But you can only have so many that are going to be of a high standard and eventually teams like Irish lose out as they can't afford to keep the good ones and lose out to teams who don't care if they can afford them. Youngsters won't start off at top performers and generally their form can be up and down, certainly initially. Teams like Irish and Wasps have gone through that stage then Saracens and Bath have taken their players. How do they get around that?

Quins do have some good ones, really liked the look of Clifford again. If he keeps that form up he'll be around the England side no doubt.

Hoping we do see some of Saracens youngsters as you have some good ones coming through. It is worrying that Itoje isn't considered first choice or even bench material. How much is his development going to be slowed? Maybe he should think about moving to a club where he'll get that opportunity?

no 7 & 1/2

Two ways

You get around it by not performing poorly. When Saracens signed Billy V, Wasps weren't doing great. Same with LI when they signed Watson and Jonathan Joseph.

If either team were playing better then they might not have left.

The second is more rules in place to protect academy players.

You keep banging on about Itoje - he was captain against Sale. He's been clearly chosen as a future Saracens captain. His development has been slowed by England so don't go preaching about development. If he was fully fit I would have of course wanted to see Itoje start, but I am not sure he was. We can start worrying about Itoje's development if he's left out more when he's fully fit.

But the big thing is that to perform better you could cheat like Bath and Saracens. Lets nopt kid ourselves both would ahve been struggling to finish top 4 without that. Buying up and keeping talent is nice when you can do it.

I guess it depends when you think Saracens and Bath began to cheat (even though as of yet there is no proof, just speculation).

Saracens made top 4 in 2009-10.

This was before they started signing more high profile players. I guess you could speculate that Saracens broke the cap in 2009-10 too but that's just speculation like the rest of your posts.

Speculation would be if we thought Sarries were going to continue to cheat, and unfortunately there is nothing to stop them breaking the salary cap, as it appears the salary cap is not legally binding.

I don't think Bath were doing that great when they nicked all the LI talent ...

Bath were two spots ahead of Irish when they nicked their players. Since then Bath have gone up the table and Irish have gone down. Funny that.

I'm hoping that the next time the PRL agreement is up for renewal the majority of the clubs give notice to enforce a change (as the PRL and LNR did with the ERC). Change the rules so that a couple of clubs can't hope up the commercial payouts and hold the smaller clubs over a barrel. Otherwise they basically have free reign to do what they like.

Munchkin where are your facts? I hear a lot of hot air and speculation, not much else.

Can you even agree on when you think Saracens and Bath started "cheating"?

As for salary cap not being legally binding - there isn't one in Ireland....

Heaf doing better than LI though....... the Armitage bros left before Bath swooped in too.

Also I find it convenient that when some clubs "nick" players it's ignored but others are seen as really bad. Haven't seen you criticising Quins for "nicking" Yarde.

I don't like to see the player drain of LI, there has to be something put in place to protect these players.

Bath and Saracens are cheats beshocked. That's one thing we do know.

Actually I did moan about Quins too but Bath really peed me off as it wasn't just Watson and JJ - add Garvey and Sisi to the list - we all know players move around but the wholesale stripping of talent whilst 'appearing' to be spending over the odds was just too much to take.

beshocked wrote:Munchkin where are your facts? I hear a lot of hot air and speculation, not much else.

Can you even agree on when you think Saracens and Bath started "cheating"?

As for salary cap not being legally binding - there isn't one in Ireland....

Heaf doing better than LI though....... the Armitage bros left before Bath swooped in too.

Also I find it convenient that when some clubs "nick" players it's ignored but others are seen as really bad. Haven't seen you criticising Quins for "nicking" Yarde.

I don't like to see the player drain of LI, there has to be something put in place to protect these players.

I don't care when Sarries started cheating. I do care that they cheat, and they get away with it. They cheat the salary cap, and buy success.

No there isn't a salary cap for the Provinces. There is the NIQ's. The NIQ's act very much as a salary cap, and are probably much more effective.

You know they have been cheating, beshocked, and you are not doing yourself, or Sarries, any favours in attempting to defend the indefensible.

Think about it. Any success the Sarries have now, will not be respected outside of Sarryland.

Heaf wrote:Actually I did moan about Quins too but Bath really peed me off as it wasn't just Watson and JJ - add Garvey and Sisi to the list - we all know players move around but the wholesale stripping of talent whilst 'appearing' to be spending over the odds was just too much to take.

Slightly off topic but ironically Yarde supposedly moved to improve his England prospects - despite the fact he had been selected whilst playing for LI - and hasn't had a sniff since ...

Heaf wrote:

Heaf wrote:Actually I did moan about Quins too but Bath really peed me off as it wasn't just Watson and JJ - add Garvey and Sisi to the list - we all know players move around but the wholesale stripping of talent whilst 'appearing' to be spending over the odds was just too much to take.

Slightly off topic but ironically Yarde supposedly moved to improve his England prospects - despite the fact he had been selected whilst playing for LI - and hasn't had a sniff since ...

To be fair you got your own back with Nick Kennedy coming then going and taking our players with him.

now who can we get to do the same to Bath ...

no 7 & 1/2 is it? Where's your proof? You claim to know it for certain but you don't have all the facts.

Munchkin please stop with the sanctimonious claptrap. You have no salary cap, stop preaching. NIQs aren't the same thing even though you want to claim they are.

Not doing myself any favours? You think an Irishman preaching about the salary cap when you don't even know what a salary cap is doing yourself favours?

Please tell me what has changed? Saracens have been accused of cheating and breaking the cap and still nothing has been proven. When it is then I might well agree with the huffing and puffing but till I know all the details there's not much else to say.

Innocent till proven guilty.

How naive are you beshocked? Do you really believe the 2 clubs aren't Bath and Saracens? They are the 2 cheats. Hard to take as you 'won' the prem last year and no one will give you much credit. That's what happens. Why don't you write to them and ask for them to come out and say they weren't one of the clubs as other clubs have?

shocked.... you've been saying the same thing since the Dinosaurs breathe their last breath on this planet.

"Say nothing unless you all have proof. And btw, I think proof would be damaging to the great sport in our nation and probably lead to civil war, plague, economic collapse and Lancaster holding on to his job.... so no proof should ever be divulged by those that have it. Nothing should ever be made clear. It's right that the waters remain clouded for the good of the game.... and yis are all blighters for looking for proof!!!!! It demeans the sport to look for proof when the WC is still going on and the damage revelations about cheating might do to the reputation of the game.........."


....and so on and so on.............

Hear no evil, see no evil.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 is it? Where's your proof? You claim to know it for certain but you don't have all the facts.

Munchkin please stop with the sanctimonious claptrap. You have no salary cap, stop preaching. NIQs aren't the same thing even though you want to claim they are.

Not doing myself any favours? You think an Irishman preaching about the salary cap when you don't even know what a salary cap is doing yourself favours?

Please tell me what has changed? Saracens have been accused of cheating and breaking the cap and still nothing has been proven. When it is then I might well agree with the huffing and puffing but till I know all the details there's not much else to say.

Innocent till proven guilty.

Truth hurts, beshocked, but try to keep hold of your senses.

I wasn't being sanctimonious. The point was that as a Sarries fan you should want the best for your club, and the best does include reputation. This cheating of the salary cap has further damaged the reputation of Sarries, and as a fan your energy would be better spent on lobbying your club to put wrongs to right. As a rugby fan, you should not be defending actions that damage rugby union, and in defending these actions you are also calling into question your own sense of objectivity and fairness.

Once you have calmed down, take time to research the NIQ, and why it is effectively a salary cap. None of the Provinces are free to spend as much as they like (unlike Sarries who can legally cheat the rules and break the cap), and that NIQ is set to be lowered by one. Making it even more difficult to buy in players outside of Ireland. and basically buy our way to success. Unlike Sarries.

Just to be clear on one thing; this isn't so much about who spends how much, but is about cheating the agreed rules.

You know they have cheated, beshocked, or if you don't by now, then you a very dim individual. I don't think you are. I think you know.

Anyway, I've said my bit. I try not to post too much on this thread, because I'm more or less an outsider looking in. So you can have the last word, and continue to defend the blatant cheating by Sarries, and the damage it is causing to the AP, and English rugby as a whole.

no 7 & 1/2 naive? I am not one of the idiots repeatedly saying cheat before there has been any stonewall facts. You don't know what is happening behind closed doors. Also there was Saints implicated too but of course it doesn't fit your agenda so you've ignored them. Please I am waiting for what you actually know - you can claim Saracens and Bath are cheats but that's just an opinion based on rumours and speculation.

Secretfly actually I am just waiting to see what happens. As I say my worst fear would be the media dragging it out and out and out which I guess what you would want. Then you would get your wish of damage,damage and more damage.

.............. we are the media.................... 606 is the media........................ only one of many outlets dragging it out....................... and your contributions to the debate.......... drag it out.............

Nothing has been 'proven' and it's still in the media and has been for a long time................ being dragged out.

So what extra burden would be added to the circus by the two clubs involved simply admitting they broke the rules they signed up for. Thus ending all speculation and putting the matter to bed................ after the sanctions

I don't mind being called an idiot for calling Bath and Saracens cheats as that's what your club is! Just suck it up and be a man.

no 7 & 1/2 entitled to your opinion but it's highly presumptuous to call it fact when you have no proof.

As I say I will wait for the "facts" and if indeed Saracens and Bath are found as guilty then I shall give my view point. I might well agree with you but I am not going to jump to conclusions based on speculation.

Munchkin what will happen, will happen. I am not going to change anything either way. If Saracens are found guilty and punished then so be it.

Feel like too many posters are jumping the gun without the full facts.

They are guilty as sin beshocked. If you really want to bury your head in the sand fair enough. Your club is a set of cheats though.

But will we ever know the facts as that information has been suppressed? And surely you then have to ask yourself if nobody was guilty why have the facts been suppressed?

Munchkin wrote:
Truth hurts, beshocked, but try to keep hold of your senses.

I wasn't being sanctimonious. The point was that as a Sarries fan you should want the best for your club, and the best does include reputation. This cheating of the salary cap has further damaged the reputation of Sarries, and as a fan your energy would be better spent on lobbying your club to put wrongs to right. As a rugby fan, you should not be defending actions that damage rugby union, and in defending these actions you are also calling into question your own sense of objectivity and fairness.

Once you have calmed down, take time to research the NIQ, and why it is effectively a salary cap. None of the Provinces are free to spend as much as they like (unlike Sarries who can legally cheat the rules and break the cap), and that NIQ is set to be lowered by one. Making it even more difficult to buy in players outside of Ireland. and basically buy our way to success. Unlike Sarries.

Just to be clear on one thing; this isn't so much about who spends how much, but is about cheating the agreed rules.

You know they have cheated, beshocked, or if you don't by now, then you a very dim individual. I don't think you are. I think you know.

Anyway, I've said my bit. I try not to post too much on this thread, because I'm more or less an outsider looking in. So you can have the last word, and continue to defend the blatant cheating by Sarries, and the damage it is causing to the AP, and English rugby as a whole.

Seriously.

The superiority complex of an Irish rugby supporter. Who are you to have a go at what they spend, when the Irish provinces spend just as much, if not more than the English clubs.

They aren't cheating though LD.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They aren't cheating though LD.

I know, but who are they to bitch about what Saracens and Bath are doing. The fact they can spend how they feel is what makes our league a joke. There should be a salary cap in the Pro12 as well. Ulster have more pros on their books than Saracens do, are the English moaning about them ?

no 7 & 1/2 if they are as guilty as sin then it should be easy to prove.

Not burying my head in the sand, it's up to you to bring the proof. If you want to accuse someone of something you need to have evidence or it's a baseless accusation.

You can't go around accusing people of things without proof or you could get into trouble.

You can speculate yes but that's all it is. When you call it fact without proof is where you could trip yourself up.

Now you might well be right but you need to back your argument up with some evidence.

As it stands what you say is an opinion, not a fact.

Lorddowlais well said.

Heaf wrote:But will we ever know the facts as a commercial arrangement has been reached to ensure that information has been suppressed?  And surely you then have to ask yourself if nobody was guilty why have the facts been suppressed?

Just added a bit.

What do we know:

1) Premiership Rugby believe that more than one club had broken the salary cap by arranging payments via a mechanism other than that actually passed to and recorded by the Salary Cap Officer.

2) Money changed hands from the accused clubs to PRL in a "no fault" arrangement.

3) Wasps have categorically stated they are not one of the clubs to have paid this money to PRL to ensure the dealings remain secret.

4) Officially no-one broke the cap as the payment of this money has ensured the investigation and any following judgement were halted.




There are two ways to read the information.

1) Read between the lines and make a very educated guess at the truth, aided by the fact that PRL have publicly stated that a payment of what any reasonable person would call a bribe had been made.

2) Claim there has been no cheating as nothing has been made official.

Not easy to prove as Saracens and Bath have hidden it away to 'protect' the game like they 'protected' the wc! Saracens are cheats, bad luck if you don't like that but that's the club you support. If you don't like the fact that everyone is calling Saracens and Bath cheats write to your club and ask them to state they aren't one of the clubs cheating. You won't get a response though!

LordDowlais wrote:




Seriously.

The superiority complex of an Irish rugby supporter. ..

We've learned that trick from the Welsh of the 70s............ and em....the 80s...... and the 90s.............. and the Noughties....................... and even to this day.  The Welsh know a bunch about superiority complexes Lord, sure aren't they the ABs of the North according to themselves and get all hot under the collar when low-life potato men of the West have the temerity to try and move in on Welsh 'rugby-is-in-our-genes-mate' territory

But let's do all this on the Pro12 threads again....

SecretFly wrote:We've learned that trick from the Welsh of the 70s............ and em....the 80s...... and the 90s.............. and the Noughties....................... and even to this day. The Welsh know a bunch about superiority complexes Lord, sure aren't they the ABs of the North according to themselves and get all hot under the collar when low-life potato men of the West have the temerity to try and move in on Welsh 'rugby-is-in-our-genes-mate' territory

Scratch away Lord.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Truth hurts, beshocked, but try to keep hold of your senses.

I wasn't being sanctimonious. The point was that as a Sarries fan you should want the best for your club, and the best does include reputation. This cheating of the salary cap has further damaged the reputation of Sarries, and as a fan your energy would be better spent on lobbying your club to put wrongs to right. As a rugby fan, you should not be defending actions that damage rugby union, and in defending these actions you are also calling into question your own sense of objectivity and fairness.

Once you have calmed down, take time to research the NIQ, and why it is effectively a salary cap. None of the Provinces are free to spend as much as they like (unlike Sarries who can legally cheat the rules and break the cap), and that NIQ is set to be lowered by one. Making it even more difficult to buy in players outside of Ireland. and basically buy our way to success. Unlike Sarries.

Just to be clear on one thing; this isn't so much about who spends how much, but is about cheating the agreed rules.

You know they have cheated, beshocked, or if you don't by now, then you a very dim individual. I don't think you are. I think you know.

Anyway, I've said my bit. I try not to post too much on this thread, because I'm more or less an outsider looking in. So you can have the last word, and continue to defend the blatant cheating by Sarries, and the damage it is causing to the AP, and English rugby as a whole.

Seriously.

The superiority complex of an Irish rugby supporter. Who are you to have a go at what they spend, when the Irish provinces spend just as much, if not more than the English clubs.

I know your comprehension levels are rivalled by hamsters, but if you bothered to read the end of my comment you will find that I am now out of this discussion....for now. Try not to drag your trolling abuse of the Provinces into this thread. There are threads available for your brand of tin hatted conspiracy theories, and I will happily make fun of you on those, but not here

Munchkin wrote:I know your comprehension levels are rivalled by hamsters, but if you bothered to read the end of my comment you will find that I am now out of this discussion....for now. Try not to drag your trolling abuse of the Provinces into this thread. There are threads available for your brand of tin hatted conspiracy theories, and I will happily make fun of you on those, but not here

Typical, and reverting to type. Insults and accusations when being called out.

The settlement that has been reached is not a fine. A certain portion of money from the BT contract will be withheld from the offending clubs and be devided between the clubs who did not cheat.
Apparently.
But we don't have the facts on this.

LondonTiger wrote:

Heaf wrote:But will we ever know the facts as a commercial arrangement has been reached to ensure that information has been suppressed?  And surely you then have to ask yourself if nobody was guilty why have the facts been suppressed?

Just added a bit.

What do we know:

1) Premiership Rugby believe that more than one club had broken the salary cap by arranging payments via a mechanism other than that actually passed to and recorded by the Salary Cap Officer.

2) Money changed hands from the accused clubs to PRL in a "no fault" arrangement.

3) Wasps have categorically stated they are not one of the clubs to have paid this money to PRL to ensure the dealings remain secret.

4) Officially no-one broke the cap as the payment of this money has ensured the investigation and any following judgement were halted.




There are two ways to read the information.

1) Read between the lines and make a very educated guess at the truth, aided by the fact that PRL have publicly stated that a payment of what any reasonable person would call a bribe had been made.

2) Claim there has been no cheating as nothing has been made official.

This.

Beshocked is determined to not allow anyone to call his beloved Nigel and old Bruce cheats until its proven. Nicely overlooking the fact that nothing will be proven because they've signed whatever confidentiality agreements are being spoken of.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They aren't cheating though LD.

I know, but who are they to bitch about what Saracens and Bath are doing. The fact they can spend how they feel is what makes our league a joke. There should be a salary cap in the Pro12 as well. Ulster have more pros on their books than Saracens do, are the English moaning about them ?

Anyone can comment on this. Are Ulster cheating?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They aren't cheating though LD.

I know, but who are they to bitch about what Saracens and Bath are doing. The fact they can spend how they feel is what makes our league a joke. There should be a salary cap in the Pro12 as well. Ulster have more pros on their books than Saracens do, are the English moaning about them ?

Anyone can comment on this. Are Ulster cheating?

No, it's just LD. Sandwich short of a picnic, conspiracy theory lover that he is. He gets abducted by aliens at about 5pm most work days, so don't expect much from him until tomorrow.

no 7 & 1/2 you can keep saying it but it's your opinion nothing more at the moment.

It's not a fact yet - You can spead speculation and rumours if you want but that could well backfire.

Bambam call them cheats if you want but that's your opinion not fact.

How exactly is Lorddowlais trolling? I would say Irish fans who don't have a salary cap jumping into a thread complaining about clubs allegedly breaking a salary cap is more akin to trolling...

carpet baboon that's my point - we don't know. We can speculate but that's all we can do.

Pure and simple Beshocked.

1) Do you believe that the clubs who in PRLs eyes had playeres receiving payments that were not disclosed and should have come under the cap umbrella and reached a financial arrangement with PRL to bring the investigation to a halt cheated?

If Yes go to 2, If no go to 3


2) Should they be punished according to the rules that all 14 PRL stake holders agreed?


3) Then why did they make a financial settlement?


And finally:

4) Do you believe it is unreasonable for people to call this financial settlement a bribe.

Yeah sure beshocked Saracens aren't cheats! Seriously though aren't you annoyed they bought the title rather than compete for it?

This all looks as innocent as Bernie paying off the German government to stop a court case against him - ironically for alleged bribery

Londontiger

1) If proven then yes it is breaking the rules. As of yet we just have speculation. When I have the full details I might well agree with you that a harsh punishment is indeed in order.

2) We don't what "rules" have allegedly been broken so it's very difficult to speculate till we know what's happened. The answer would be yes if found guilty though I am sure the "rules" are open to interpretation.

3) No details on the financial settlement - we can speculate I guess.

4) A financial settlement we know nothing about? Yes I think it's wrong to call it a bribe when we don't know all the details.

Heaf wrote:This all looks as innocent as Bernie paying off the German government to stop a court case against him - ironically for alleged bribery

Yeah, that's a beaut. I think it's much better than the Blatter stuff... an 'alleged' bribe to stop a bribery case. They should make a movie of that one. Wray could play Blatter playing Bernie.

Anyone got any magic beans?

Well the payment to the German govt wasn't alleged, that was a matter of fact - it was the original offence that they had him in court for that was alleged - I still for the life of me can't work out how the German authorities can hold their heads up and have accepted the payment without it being seen as a bribe to stop the case ... not a bribe

OK let's speculate.
Two clubs cheated
The punishment is foregoing a portion of TV money.
This portion is less than the amount made by teams reaching the final of the Aviva Premiership.
If all the above is true can we agree the leauge is abit of a joke