AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

First topic message reminder :

Or Saints keeping Ashton.

by SecretFly Mon 26 Oct 2015, 5:54 pm

Heaf wrote:Well the payment to the German govt wasn't alleged, that was a matter of fact - it was the original offence that they had him in court for that was alleged - I still for the life of me can't work out how the German authorities can hold their heads up and have accepted the payment without it being seen as a bribe to stop the case ... not a bribe

That was just covering myself legally Wink

I laughed when I heard that resolution.

by HammerofThunor Mon 26 Oct 2015, 5:55 pm

Fail to see the relevance of whether or not the Irish have a cap with regards to commenting on two clubs cheating the English cap.

The Irish don't need a cap because they have largely centrally controlled Provinces. It's more important for them to limit the numbers of NIQ players...so that's what they do.

If it is an issue we're all in trouble for discussing the semi-finals of the RWC as none of our teams were in it (stupid logic).

On topic itself, given the wording of McCafferty's statement I think we can be pretty sure that at least two clubs were completely taking the urine. Extremely strongly worded given the restrictions placed on him. We know it wasn't Wasps. Perhaps we need to get all the innocent clubs to say it wasn't them, then we'd know. Although we all 'know' now (those of us not hoping the bribe does it's job). We know who the cheats are and we know who's league performance is down to cheating.

by Heaf Mon 26 Oct 2015, 6:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Heaf wrote:Well the payment to the German govt wasn't alleged, that was a matter of fact - it was the original offence that they had him in court for that was alleged - I still for the life of me can't work out how the German authorities can hold their heads up and have accepted the payment without it being seen as a bribe to stop the case ... not a bribe

That was just covering myself legally I laughed when I heard that resolution.

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 8:48 am

Neil Fissler has posted on twitter an extract from McCafferty's media briefing. So many words but so little actually said, the man should go into politics.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:19 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Fail to see the relevance of whether or not the Irish have a cap with regards to commenting on two clubs cheating the English cap.

The Irish don't need a cap because they have largely centrally controlled Provinces. It's more important for them to limit the numbers of NIQ players...so that's what they do.

If it is an issue we're all in trouble for discussing the semi-finals of the RWC as none of our teams were in it (stupid logic).

On topic itself, given the wording of McCafferty's statement I think we can be pretty sure that at least two clubs were completely taking the urine. Extremely strongly worded given the restrictions placed on him. We know it wasn't Wasps. Perhaps we need to get all the innocent clubs to say it wasn't them, then we'd know. Although we all 'know' now (those of us not hoping the bribe does it's job). We know who the cheats are and we know who's league performance is down to cheating.

The relevance is that it's hypocrisy.

There is no salary cap in Ireland yet the Irish are criticising two sides for allegedly breaking a salary cap (something that does not exist in Ireland).

It's a fact that there is no salary cap in Ireland - not speculation.

If you cannot understand that - then I cannot help you.

You don't know what's going on - stop pretending you know the facts.

When you have some of them then I might well agree with you.

Let's say that it's proven that Saracens and Bath have indeed broken the salary cap with evidence then a punishment can be made. Till then - there is still speculation. We don't know how serious or for how long the allegedly breaking of the cap have been going on for.

carpet baboon yes but where will the speculation get us?

You need evidence.

by Heaf Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:23 am

Unfortunately the only evidence we're likely to see is the evidence that the evidence has been suppressed ...

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:23 am

How is it hypocrisy exactly?

The Irish aren't cheating Bath and Saracens are.

by BamBam Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:26 am

by Heaf Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:28 am

this summarises it nicely - maybe whichever team gets relegated this season should put in a legal challenge if they are within 40 points of Sarries and/or Bath ...

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:42 am

Heaf evidence is still needed.

no 7 & 1/2 please stop saying it as if it's fact.

The Irish aren't accused of cheating because they don't have a salary cap. They can spend what they want. In England we have a salary cap. Saracens and Bath might well have broken the rules but there is lack of evidence at the moment.

Yes it has been suppressed. Not just by Saracens and Bath I should add.

Why are Saints not being accused of breaking the cap? - there has been speculation and rumours they breaking the cap too.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:45 am

Why beshocked? Bath and Saracens cheated and I think it's fair to point that out. Saints didn't break the cap and weren't accused in this, just Saracens and Bath.

The Irish haven't cheated and it's fair for their fans to join the chorus of disgust at the cheats.

by BamBam Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:45 am

Beshocked .. I think you agree that something has been suppressed? Most likely evidence?

If you agree with that, do you not think it is slightly unfair to tell everyone they aren't allowed to call a spade a spade because there isn't any evidence - because its been suppressed?

by BamBam Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:46 am

And also, I don't see why Irish fans can't comment.

When the NFL had salary cap breaches, it didn't stop all of us over on the NFL bit of the forum talking about it, we didn't not discuss it because the British American Football league has no salary cap (or salary for that matter)

by Sin é Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:02 am

beshocked wrote:Heaf evidence is still needed.

no 7 & 1/2 please stop saying it as if it's fact.

The Irish aren't accused of cheating because they don't have a salary cap. They can spend what they want. In England we have a salary cap. Saracens and Bath might well have broken the rules but there is lack of evidence at the moment.

Yes it has been suppressed. Not just by Saracens and Bath I should add.

Why are Saints not being accused of breaking the cap? - there has been speculation and rumours they breaking the cap too.

Of course they have a salary cap. They don't spend what they don't have.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:06 am

no 7 & 1/2

Saints were accused of breaking the cap too. It's speculation and rumours just like most of your comments.

No it's not fair for the Irish to jump in because they don't know what a salary cap is.

Bambam what has the NFL or British American Football league got to do with this? The answer is nothing.

Is it unfair to wait till we know what's going on before jumping to conclusions?

I simply want the full picture first.

I can speculate that evidence has been suppressed, yes perhaps it was but we still need to be able to come to a conclusion based on facts. Not on hearsay and rumours.

If you accuse me of something you need proof,witnesses,evidence etc. When you have all of this then I will give my view point.

Sin E there is no salary cap - that is a fact.

by BamBam Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:06 am

BamBam wrote:

by **LondonTiger** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:10 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Heaf wrote:But will we ever know the facts as a commercial arrangement has been reached to ensure that information has been suppressed? And surely you then have to ask yourself if nobody was guilty why have the facts been suppressed?

Just added a bit.

What do we know:

1) Premiership Rugby believe that more than one club had broken the salary cap by arranging payments via a mechanism other than that actually passed to and recorded by the Salary Cap Officer.

2) Money changed hands from the accused clubs to PRL in a "no fault" arrangement.

3) Wasps have categorically stated they are not one of the clubs to have paid this money to PRL to ensure the dealings remain secret.

4) Officially no-one broke the cap as the payment of this money has ensured the investigation and any following judgement were halted.

There are two ways to read the information.

1) Read between the lines and make a very educated guess at the truth, aided by the fact that PRL have publicly stated that a payment of what any reasonable person would call a bribe had been made.

2) Claim there has been no cheating as nothing has been made official.

What we know no 5: Based on Edward Griffiths "confession" Saracens were one of two sides initially being investigated.

What we can assume from this: Saracens are one of the sides who reached a financial arrangement with PRL to halt the investigation.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:11 am

beshocked, who by the latest release mentioned the 2 clubs and not Saints.

You're saying that the Irish people don't understand what a salary cap is? Really?

We all know who the 2 clubs are; Bath and Saracens.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:beshocked, who by the latest release mentioned the 2 clubs and not Saints.

You're saying that the Irish people don't understand what a salary cap is? Really?

We all know who the 2 clubs are; Bath and Saracens.

We know Saracens are as just before ~~being sacked~~ leaving by mutual consent Griffiths admitted they were.

We are guessing that Bath are the other. A guess supported by a heap load of circumstantial evidence and leaked info.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:29 am

Yeah it's like I know my next door neighbour takes his clothes off to take a bath. I've never seen it happen though and I can't post a link here to prove it.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:29 am

Londontiger yes Saracens were initially been investigated. We know that but we do not have a conclusion. We can speculate.

no 7 & 1/2 which latest release was that?

Well it doesn't seem like Irish fans on here understand what a salary cap is no because they seem under the false assumption that restricting their foreign count is effectively a salary cap. It's not.

We can speculate yes.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah it's like I know my next door neighbour takes his clothes off to take a bath. I've never seen it happen though and I can't post a link here to prove it.

Actually you don't. Perhaps your neighbour doesn't own a bath - you would only know if you saw it. Perhaps your neighbour doesn't have a bath or bathes with their clothes on. You can come to a conclusion but you have no proof. Do you know what happens behind closed doors? No you don't. You think you know but perhaps you don't.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:40 am

Why are you and have you been bothering to argue against what we all know to be true beshocked? It seems a speacial kind of denial. Be happy that you've gotten away without a points deduction but theres no need to pretend anymore.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:41 am

Whats the new excuse about not beating the top french teams regularly now? Before it was you couldn't compete financially but we know thats not true.

by SecretFly Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:45 am

beshocked wrote:Londontiger yes Saracens were initially been investigated. We know that but we do not have a conclusion. We can speculate.

no 7 & 1/2 which latest release was that?

Well it doesn't seem like Irish fans on here understand what a salary cap is no because they seem under the false assumption that restricting their foreign count is effectively a salary cap. It's not.

We can speculate yes.

An ignorance we share with Nigel Wray then. We're in good company according to you.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 10:56 am

no 7 & 1/2 you say you know it to be true... personally I want to see the evidence first before I know it to be "true".

Is it crazy to want proof and evidence? I will concede that yes perhaps Saracens and Bath did break the rules but till this is set in stone, there is the case of innocent till proven guilty. Perhaps Saracens and Bath have used their lawyers to fight a legal case against the legality of the salary cap in the first place. Personally I don't know all the facts and won't pretend I do.

You think I am happy? I have said a few times if there is a points deduction and financial penalty then so be it. I just want the full facts instead of rumours and hearsay.

Too many questions unanswered.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:00 am

Ok beshocked. Everyone know they're cheats though. Think you should write to your club and ask them to confirm they aren't the London club who cheated and then it's clear. Other than that everyone is going to 'know' they're cheats. And not even that great at it, only a 4th place finish with 2 clubs who didn't cheat above you!

by yappysnap Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whats the new excuse about not beating the top french teams regularly now? Before it was you couldn't compete financially but we know thats not true.

Yea I can't wait to see this new era of English club dominance in Europe from Bath and Sarries, and how that'll benefit supporters of the other 10 English clubs not cheating, oh wait...

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:05 am

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:Londontiger yes Saracens were initially been investigated. We know that but we do not have a conclusion. We can speculate.

no 7 & 1/2 which latest release was that?

Well it doesn't seem like Irish fans on here understand what a salary cap is no because they seem under the false assumption that restricting their foreign count is effectively a salary cap. It's not.

We can speculate yes.

An ignorance we share with Nigel Wray then. We're in good company according to you.

I guess it depends whether you believe that Nigel Wray has been breaking the salary cap, the entire time it's been in place. Do you believe that Wray has been breaking the salary cap in every season?

Irish fans have shown a lack of understanding of the salary cap. You could argue that if Wray is indeed breaking the cap then he knows what he is doing. Nigel Wray is not ignorant.

by yappysnap Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:10 am

Sarries v Toulouse and Toulon v Bath are on the opening weekend of the euro comp Beshocked, you must be expecting big wins for the English teams now they can finally compete on an even footing?

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:12 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok beshocked. Everyone know they're cheats though. Think you should write to your club and ask them to confirm they aren't the London club who cheated and then it's clear. Other than that everyone is going to 'know' they're cheats. And not even that great at it, only a 4th place finish with 2 clubs who didn't cheat above you!

no 7 & 1/2 I am sure that if I wrote to Saracens they would say that they have not been found guilty of anything as of yet which is indeed the case.

You can accuse them of being cheats but as of now it's just based on speculation and rumours. Perhaps in the future you'll get your hard evidence but till then I'll just laugh off your barking which has no bite. Add some evidence then you'll have a strong case.

You don't understand how the playoff system works do you? A 4th place finish in the normal league doesn't matter if you win the away semi and the final.

Yappysnap I don't claim to know what will happen. To be honest I would go with home advantage as of now but we'll see closer to the time.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:13 am

Oh you're saying they're liars as well as cheats? Fair enough.

by SecretFly Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:17 am

beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

An ignorance we share with Nigel Wray then. We're in good company according to you.

I guess it depends whether you believe that Nigel Wray has been breaking the salary cap, the entire time it's been in place. Do you believe that Wray has been breaking the salary cap in every season?

Irish fans have shown a lack of understanding of the salary cap. You could argue that if Wray is indeed breaking the cap then he knows what he is doing. Nigel Wray is not ignorant.

Does it matter what I believe about how long a salary cap was potentially going on? It'd be lovely to think it was still happening as Nigel was busy lecturing the Irish on their 'advantages' in Europe and using language of an AP cap to back him up. Oh that would be delightful to know that bit.

I'll believe what I believe, and I suppose it's why I delight in giving Mr Wray a hard time now. He's owed it with interest for what I'd regard as a load of pompous hypocrisy spoken all through last year.

You'll then believe what you believe.

But of course belief of any sort is illegitimate 'speculation' in your opinion. So like has been suggested above - why don't you write in a direct series of questions to the Chairman of your club and demand straight 'clearing the air' answers.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh you're saying they're liars as well as cheats? Fair enough.

no 7 & 1/2 No I didn't say that but there doesn't seem to be any point arguing with you anymore.

It doesn't seem like your barking with no bite will end so as of now, I will agree to disagree till more evidence unearths itself.

Personally I will wait to see what happens. I take no joy in this mess.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:20 am

Well, if we assume (and surely it is a fair assumption) that the reason Saracens paid a settlement to PRL to halt the investigation was because they were cheating the cap as laid down by PRL rather than as re-invented by Sarries lawyers then we have to consider players signed in the last couple of years and the impact they have had.

Only by spending more than they agreed to could Saracens afford Bosch (who kicked the long range penalty that saw Sarries get out of their group), Hodgson and BillyV. All three were prominent in the league and without them Sarries would have finished behind Exeter.

Now Leicester finished where we did because we are not good enough, that was our failing. Saracens "cheating" has not made us a worse team. It has however made them a better team.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:22 am

I don't take any joy in the attempt of a cover up but it looked likely at the start of this mess and has now happened. Pretty surprise that someone like yourself has chosen to bury their head and pretend it hasn't happened but then again as it's Saracens perhaps not that surprising. Write in and ask your club and let us know the response; in the meantime they've cheated alot of clubs and fans and whould be ashamed.

by Heaf Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:25 am

LondonTiger wrote:Well, if we assume (and surely it is a fair assumption) that the reason Saracens paid a settlement to PRL to halt the investigation was because they were cheating the cap as laid down by PRL rather than as re-invented by Sarries lawyers then we have to consider players signed in the last couple of years and the impact they have had.

Only by spending more than they agreed to could Saracens afford Bosch (who kicked the long range penalty that saw Sarries get out of their group), Hodgson and BillyV. All three were prominent in the league and without them Sarries would have finished behind Exeter.

Now Leicester finished where we did because we are not good enough, that was our failing. Saracens "cheating" has not made us a worse team. It has however made them a better team.

I'm sticking with Bath cheating has made LI a worse team ...

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:28 am

On a serious note I wonder if this now means that there's no salary cap or Bath and Saracens are now going to play to the rules (honest guv)?

by Heaf Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:34 am

Has there been any noticeable reduction in their squads? Maybe some players have agreed to a pay cut - as it's not just about the money as we keep getting told ...

by **LondonTiger** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:43 am

Heaf wrote:I'm sticking with Bath cheating has made LI a worse team ...

I agree with you.

Though I can only take an evidence-based assumption that they have cheated.

by yappysnap Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:45 am

Remember it was all about the Uni degrees, iPads and extra holidays! Nothing to do with the millions of £££ extra that they were paying their squads.

At least we now know what that something special was that all the Sarries drones kept going on about.

by beshocked Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:47 am

Londontiger Bosch was at the time, an injury ravaged player at a failing Biarritz team. I hardly think he was signed at his zenith. With Billy, maybe he wanted to play with his brother. As for Hodgson, leaving a Sale side not playing as well as they did to link up with his fellow Sale halfback,Wigglesworth, hardly shocking.

Heaf Strettle and Johnston have left. With no big name signings coming in. Too early to say if it's an effort to get Saracens' spending in order, we'll see.

no 7 & 1/2 I am not pretending it hasn't happened. I just want to see how it unfolds before jumping to conclusion. If I pretended it hasn't happened I would just ignore all your comments.

You think a letter to Saracens from me would make a difference? I am flattered you think so but no it wouldn't.

by Bathman_in_London Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:50 am

I think as the investigation was for 2 seasons ago and as the cap has increased hugely since then, both sides would have to have been miles over (sorry under but with unconnected sponsors paying the players) to shed players now. That said, the Sarries squad seems to have barely changed this season.

All in all, the whole thing is a shambles, personally I would have rather Bath were punished if they were over, this sort of cover up hasn't helped anyone at all.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:51 am

No I don't think it would make a difference. More pressure placed upon them and the bigger uproar the better though. Fans happy to sit back and ignore the obvious ain't good though.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 11:55 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think as the investigation was for 2 seasons ago and as the cap has increased hugely since then, both sides would have to have been miles over (sorry under but with unconnected sponsors paying the players) to shed players now. That said, the Sarries squad seems to have barely changed this season.

All in all, the whole thing is a shambles, personally I would have rather Bath were punished if they were over, this sort of cover up hasn't helped anyone at all.

Yeah it was the 2013/14 season that was under investigation, though issues with 2014/15 also supposedly highlighted.

Because it has all been hushed up we can only speculate as to the size and nature of any offences. Certainly looking at the lack of recruitment at Saracens it could be fair to think they were a long way over and have been allowing the increases in cap to catch up with them.

by HammerofThunor Tue 27 Oct 2015, 12:08 pm

I don't think you understand what hypocrisy is [@Beshocked]. Hypocrisy is complaining about thieves when you steal things yourself. It's not about complaining about thieves when you don't have anything worth stealing.

The Irish may be coming from a uneducated point of view as they don't have a cap but it's not hypocrisy. And for the record, it's easy to understand cheaters as cheaters, regardless of whether you have rules that are being broken yourself.

My biggest disappointment in all this is now there is absolutely no trust that the system will work. If they had had been punished as the cheaters they are then we could accept that something had been done and would be again in the future. Now we enter into the point where Saracens and Bath can basically do what they want and threaten legal action, block commercial payouts, etc., until they get their way.

by Bathman_in_London Tue 27 Oct 2015, 12:11 pm

I had thought the same LT, logically with a big backer and an increase in the cap you would have assumed they would sign more players. The fact they haven't certainly makes me a little suspicious as to the scale of the problem.

On a different note, I was discussing with a mate how odd it was that only 1 club had made an official announcement about this (and I guess as Wasps were basically bankrupt that season, they couldn't realistically have been involved), we wondered if rather than bullying, do other clubs not want a clamp down on other/sponsorship payments? Otherwise I struggle to understand the logic behind staying quiet if the breaches were on the industrial scale we all assume.

by broadlandboy Tue 27 Oct 2015, 12:12 pm

Beshocked all any of the fans want is the veil of secrecy lifted so we can make our own minds up. until then speculation will run riot.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 27 Oct 2015, 12:13 pm

My understanding is that the other clubs have received their share of the ~~fine~~ financial arrangement.

I am viewing it as our 40 pieces of silver.

by HongKongCherry Tue 27 Oct 2015, 12:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:My understanding is that the other clubs have received their share of the ~~fine~~ financial arrangement.

I am viewing it as our 40 pieces of silver.

It sounds like Glaws will get their request to suspend relegation, which in turn will help the board sell the club. I will be immensely disappointed if we have taken this ~~bribe~~ offer, especially in light of how vocal Walkinshaw has been.

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