AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

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Or Saints keeping Ashton.

Well I guess that makes sense, although it makes a murky state of affairs even more so.

Brian Moore

Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 1h hour ago
Salary Cap. It gets worse. Not only were @premrugby threatened with litigation, there were also threats to sue clubs individually.

Hammerofthunor

If there was no salary cap then Saracens and Bath would not be accused of breaking the rules. There is no salary cap in Ireland.....

Hypocrisy is when you pretend that you have higher standards when you don't. In Ireland there is no salary cap. The recent rise in the Irish spending shows that the Irish can do what they want with no questions asked.

An Irishman calls these clubs' cheats for allegedly breaking the salary cap when they don't know what a salary cap is - you don't think that's strange.

The Irish have been doing what they want for years....

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor

If there was no salary cap then Saracens and Bath would not be accused of breaking the rules. There is no salary cap in Ireland.....

Hypocrisy is when you pretend that you have higher standards when you don't. In Ireland there is no salary cap. The recent rise in the Irish spending shows that the Irish can do what they want with no questions asked.

An Irishman calls these clubs' cheats for allegedly breaking the salary cap when they don't know what a salary cap is - you don't think that's strange.

The Irish have been doing what they want for years....

You might as well tell anyone who is a fan of the Premier League that they can't comment on Saracens being cheats either.

After all, there's no salary cap in the Premier League, fans of the Premier League clearly don't know what one is, so even if they are also rugby fans who watch the Aviva, they can't comment

Sound about right?

Each club in the Aviva Prem/PRL have a responsibility to their fans/supporters and to the traditions of their clubs. Likewise the fans have a responsibility to ensure they have a say in their clubs. Would it be possible for someone to get all the supporters clubs chairmen to communicate and start a petition for clarity at least in this whole mess? With a few hashtags like someone mentioned a cpouple of pages ago?

#PRLsalarycapbreach
#AvivaPremCapBreach

I'm Welsh so have no vested interest in this, but if this happened in the RRW I would be looking for some answers too.

Gotta start somewhere.

broadlandboy if the veil of secrecy is lifted then fair enough. We can speculate but that won't get us closer to the facts.

Bambam if a premier league fan called these clubs cheats then it would be like people living in glass houses throwing stones..... Need to get one's own house in order.

They can comment of course but they can be criticised because it's like someone with more problems than yourselves preaching to you about your own.

HongKongCherry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:My understanding is that the other clubs have received their share of the fine financial arrangement.

I am viewing it as our 40 pieces of silver.

It sounds like Glaws will get their request to suspend relegation, which in turn will help the board sell the club.  I will be immensely disappointed if we have taken this bribe offer, especially in light of how vocal Walkinshaw has been.

Do not be too surprised if Leicester announce a new contract for Manu shortly. You may draw your own conclusion as to whether this was facilitated alongside the bribe financial arrangement we received.

beshocked wrote:

Bambam if a premier league fan called these clubs cheats then it would be like people living in glass houses throwing stones..... Need to get one's own house in order.

They can comment of course but they can be criticised because it's like someone with more problems than yourselves preaching to you about your own.

Well, no its not, because they are playing within the rules of their league/sport. Hence they are not cheating.

Whether you agree with the laws of their league/sport or not is a different issue, I don't agree with the Premier League spending level, but I can't criticise the clubs for cheating by spending as they please, because its not restricted.

Saracens and Bath are cheats (yes I know there's no evidence bla bla bla), because they exceeded what was allowed in the laws of the Aviva Premiership

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Bambam it depends on whether you think the rule in the first place is right or wrong.

There are ways to legally fight a rule. Is it morally right? Perhaps not but that's what is currently happening.

If you believe a rule is wrong, will you not fight to get it changed?

The Premier League has unrestricted spending so cannot lecture the AP on spending.

It would be like the Americans lecturing the English on gun violence. Or Kim Jong Un lecturing the west on human rights....

Might not be "cheating" but it's only because Premier League' spending is ludicrous and out of control. The inequality between the top Premier League and bottom Premier League is far greater than anything in the AP.

It's up to the AP to police themselves.

Still not hypocrisy, but the thing you seem to have fixated on is that the Provinces have unconstrained salaries and are spending well out of control.  But this is simply not the case.

It's nothing like American's lecturing us on gun violence. It's like a country that has no gun control, but also no gun violence lecturing us on gun violence.

EDIT: by the way, the diversionary tactics of trying to turn this onto the Irish isn't going to work. We still know who the cheats are. And every achievement they have had is now tainted in that stink.

BamBam wrote:Brian Moore

Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666  1h hour ago
Salary Cap. It gets worse. Not only were @premrugby threatened with litigation, there were also threats to sue clubs individually.

I'm sure it was Newcastle who were bullying Saracens and Bath into the unfair salary cap wasn't it?

I love beshocked.
I bet he's a Tory too.
The rich can do what they want aslong as it suits them.
Hurrah.

Delusional

I think the way to avoid the cap fuss is for the two sides to admit guilt. Get it out in the open, be men. Say what happened, pay the fines etc and start fresh.

Then for this season, it could be five points for a try for ten of the AP sides and seven points per try for two of the sides that find the burden of living with five points too much of a stress on growth potential and marketing attractiveness.....

carpet baboon wrote:I love beshocked.
I bet he's a Tory too.
The rich can do what they want aslong as it suits them.
Hurrah.

Delusional

I don't think there's any need for that. The forum would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed and full credit to beshocked for helping generate a different side to the discussion.

Though calling him a Tory is a big insult he's said worse himself.

Don't get me wrong I'm glad he is here. The genuinely enjoy reading his point of view.
I just can't help but have the exact opposite opinion.
And I am sorry for bringing politics into it. No need for that I agree.

Very amusing thread. Considering the amount of administration and finances in the Pro12 that are shrouded in secrecy.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Very amusing thread. Considering the amount of administration and finances in the Pro12 that are shrouded in secrecy.

Another troll infecting a thread with his conspiracy theories. Take it to one of the relevant threads, PHIL.

beshocked wrote:Bambam it depends on whether you think the rule in the first place is right or wrong.

There are ways to legally fight a rule. Is it morally right? Perhaps not but that's what is currently happening.

If you believe a rule is wrong, will you not fight to get it changed?

The Premier League has unrestricted spending so cannot lecture the AP on spending.

It would be like the Americans lecturing the English on gun violence. Or Kim Jong Un lecturing the west on human rights....

Might not be "cheating" but it's only because Premier League' spending is ludicrous and out of control. The inequality between the top Premier League and bottom Premier League is far greater than anything in the AP.

It's up to the AP to police themselves.

I'm again going to draw a parallel that you don't like, that of Man City.

UEFA brought in Financial Fair Play rules that restricted spending to a portion of turnover. Man City and PSG broke those rules, and were punished by having to pay £49m in fines, and have reduced squads for European competition for that year.

The rules were subsequently challenged (not in the courts), and have been revoked ahead of the current season, and City and co have been spending as they wish again this summer.

That is an example of fighting to get a rule changed. They were still punished for breaking the rules as they were at the time.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Very amusing thread. Considering the amount of administration and finances in the Pro12 that are shrouded in secrecy.

If there was transparency in this situation we probably wouldn't have such a long thread, as beshocked would have had to admit old Nige was a cheat, and he's already acknowledged that if proven the clubs should be punished

Hammerofthunor I am not trying to turn this onto the Irish as a diversionary tactic. The Irish are trying to preach about the salary cap when it's an alien concept to them.

I didn't say the Irish are spending out of control - I said they are unconstrained because they have no salary cap - they could spend what they want if they chose to.

You cannot break a salary cap if you have no salary cap!



carpet baboon not that it's your business but yes I voted for the Tories but it doesn't mean I support everything they do.

Allowing the Chinese to have a nuclear power plant in England is bonkers for example. Their other policies have been questionable too. My current view - is that the Tories are the best of a bad bunch. The alternatives are more frightening in my opinion.

Just as I support Saracens, doesn't mean I agree with everything they do.

Flawed but with positives not just negatives.

If Saracens are found guilty and punished then so be it but I will personally wait and see what happens.

I will not jump to conclusions based on raw emotion. I want to see facts.

I for one ain't basing anything on raw emotion. We all know Bath and Saracens are the ones that broke the cap and I'd simply like to see the predefined points deductions.

BamBam wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Very amusing thread. Considering the amount of administration and finances in the Pro12 that are shrouded in secrecy.

If there was transparency in this situation we probably wouldn't have such a long thread, as beshocked would have had to admit old Nige was a cheat, and he's already acknowledged that if proven the clubs should be punished

If there was transparency then I would do that. If there was evidence and facts to back up your claim then I would have no choice.

I have called for a punishment if found guilty and transparency in the salary cap.

What I disagree with mostly is calling Saracens and Bath cheats before we have all the facts.

I cannot defend against circumstantial evidence of wrongdoing. That's what you need - evidence.

no 7 & 1/2 you still need the facts and proof to support your claim.

Why do I? Have you not seen what's going on. Threatening to sue people if they go ahead and punish clubs for cheating. Throwing their weight around and blackmailing. Awful behaviour and they've done as much as they can to bury their cheating. Why are you sticking your head in the sand? If this was any club other than Saracens I doubt you'd be standing off.

No 7&1/2 wrote:blackmailing..

That's got to be litiguous unless you ahve proof you're prepared to share?

So sue me Chunks.

Beshocked - do you agree that we aren't going to get the evidence you seek because it has been suppressed by a "confidentiality agreement"

?

no 7 & 1/2 because without evidence it's just speculation and not a fact.

Just speculation - you could say they are blackmailing but how do you know that certain clubs aren't gladly taking bribes? Also there is a rumour that Leicester were pressurising Saracens into dropping their interest in Manu - whose blackmailing who in that scenario? Far too much behind closed doors to know what's really going on. Also if Saracens were "blackmailing" other teams and there was proof of this then surely they could be punished for that too?

I am sticking my head in the sand as you call it because I don't know what's going on really. I don't have the facts at my disposal. I don't know what can be done except let things play themselves out.

Bambam perhaps not. A confidentiality agreement is something that all 12 of the clubs must have agreed to though - whether any of us agree with it or not. Plus I wonder where does Ian Ritchie fit into all of this. I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know the ins and outs of the discussions.

Think it's pretty clear they are taking bribes and shady deals. It's never coming out in the open due to this stuff going on; the whole thing stinks. Led by the cheats.

If a 'Fact' popped out, beshocked, you'd be ready with a 'what kind of fact is it though?'
A biased fact?
A baseless fact?
A fact based on an interpretation of the truth?
A fact out of context?
A fact that needs another fact to back it up for legitimacy?

Always a get-out clause at the ready. Just like the legal eagles involved in the very 'confidentiality agreement' pertaining to this topic.

beshocked wrote:Plus I wonder where does Ian Ritchie fit into all of this. I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know the ins and outs of the discussions.

Would you like him to come clean on what he knows?

Are you still planning on leaving at the end of the world cup?

Just asking, like.

no 7 & 1/2 nothing is clear though. That's the problem. You can talk about shady deals, bribes etc but you have a lack of details.

Secretfly when you have some strong evidence even I won't be able to be able to argue against it.

It's up to Ian Ritchie but personally I would prefer if he fired himself from the RFU, more than anything.

Fuzzy Dunlop flattered you remember. Do you want me to? Probably not a bad idea if I do.

beshocked, come off it. If we can try to be serious it's pretty obvious whats happened but if you want to wait for it to get out in the open it's pretty much the end of this as Saracens and Bath wanted. You may be happy with that as it's allowed your team to cheat others, win and get away with it. That's a pretty selfish view though.

beshocked wrote:

It's up to Ian Ritchie but personally I would prefer if he fired himself from the RFU, more than anything.

So you don't think even Ritchie owes the rugby watching public a public explanation of what he knows or doesn't know?

Who is accountable for the truth getting out?

Ritchie:  It's nothing to do with me.  I know nothing.
McCafferty: It might have something to do with me but as nobody is ever wrong and nobody is ever right and money passed hands under the desk to prove the point, it's now impossible for me to ever say what I may or may not know about something that may or may not have happened.
Wray:  F**k Off.

What nameplate is responsible for the truth coming out?  Blatter is being investigated for keeping his truth close to his chest now for far too long

I cannot believe the bashing beshocked is getting on this topic. It makes you laugh it really does.

What he is saying is correct. There is NO evidence yet to prove Saracens and Bath have cheated. We can all come to the conclusion that they have, and make our own minds up with what we can see, but there is a rule in this country "Innocent until proven GUILTY". There are too many judge, juries and executioners on this forum.

It makes me laugh it really does, I have so many people asking me for proof, links, evidence on topics on this forum, yet I see unraveling before my very eyes the same people throwing accusations of cheating and bribery around as fact without a shred of evidence. You see, what you THINK has happened is not the same as what HAS happened. Do I think the teams have cheated ? Yes I do. Does that mean they have ? No it does not.

beshocked has already stated that, when the evidence comes out, and that his team has been found to be cheating, then he has said that they should be punished accordingly, you cannot get any fairer than that.

Now for all you judge,juries and executioners on here, can you please provide the proof to back up your claims that Saracens and Bath have cheated and tried to bribe their way out of it ?

Presumed innocent until proven guilty. Alas this isn't a court of law. The evidence has been buried by the cheats thats the problem.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumed innocent until proven guilty. Alas this isn't a court of law. The evidence has been buried by the cheats thats the problem.

Proof ?

Have you not read the previous LD? The cheats have been caught and bought their way out.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have you not read the previous LD? The cheats have been caught and bought their way out.

Again, prove it.

There is no proof because its been buried. Beshocked can fill you in

BamBam wrote:There is no proof because its been buried. Beshocked can fill you in

Again, prove it.

Why? Clearly Bath and Saracens were found to be within the cap so then pressurised and threatened to sue to ensure that the news they weren't cheats didn't hit the news. You're quite naive if you think they aren't cheats.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why? Clearly Bath and Saracens were found to be within the cap so then pressurised and threatened to sue to ensure that the news they weren't cheats didn't hit the news. You're quite naive if you think they aren't cheats.

You see, this is where narrow minded people like you end up driving people away from this forum. I am not naive, I think that they have cheated. That does not mean I am right, I cannot prove what I think.

That is what beshocked was trying to say all through this debate, yet you just kept on an on about cheating and bribery without a shred of evidence to back up your claims, except for what you THINK. If you have it as a matter of fact that these things have happened then show us all your proof.

No beshocked is just trying to blindly defend Saracens as per. I don't mind if you stop posting though.

At the start of this inceidentally I was also saying lets wait for the results but now they've been buried and not likely to see the light of day ever I think it's fair to come out and call a spade a spade.

Now all of you lads apologise to beshocked hereto forthwith!!! And be quick about it. And then shake hands and we'll call this whole debate quits.....

It was all a dream. Just a very bad dream

Thank you Lorddowlais. Exactly that's what I have been saying. Perhaps Saracens and Bath are guilty and if so they should be punished but let's not get carried away.

Bambam if it has indeed been buried then it's a decision made by many different parties. Not just two clubs....

Let's speculate that what you say is true - Saracens and Bath have supposedly bullied, smashed, bulldozered their way through every single obstacle in their way. Are you seriously saying they can put the likes of Mcafferty,Ritchie and every other club in the AP under their control without some resistance? Surely that cannot be the case? Are you saying that they have more power than all these figures? Personally I find that hard to believe but then again I don't proclaim to know enough on the subject.

Well you've said previously that Newcastle could bully Saracens and Bath by themselves! Well I guess you're happy then as Saracens are forever protected.

In 7 to 14 days time all the proof, evidence and facts will be out in the he open.
That is all
And people will be amazed