AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

First topic message reminder :

Or Saints keeping Ashton.

by beshocked Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:09 pm

BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:Bambam whistleblowing could well be deemed as illegal.

.

No, it can't - if its true (which we all know it is)

https://www.gov.uk/whistleblowing/what-is-a-whistleblower

1. What is a whistleblower
You’re a whistleblower if you’re a worker and you report certain types of wrongdoing. This will usually be something you’ve seen at work - though not always.

The wrongdoing you disclose must be in the public interest. This means it must affect others, eg the general public.

As a whistleblower you’re protected by law - you shouldn’t be treated unfairly or lose your job because you ‘blow the whistle’.

You can raise your concern at any time about an incident that happened in the past, is happening now, or you believe will happen in the near future.

Complaints that count as whistleblowing
You’re protected by law if you report any of the following:

a criminal offence, eg fraud
someone’s health and safety is in danger
risk or actual damage to the environment
a miscarriage of justice
the company is breaking the law, eg doesn’t have the right insurance
you believe someone is covering up wrongdoing

Try it and see by all means. You involve lawyers particularly high powered ones and it could get messy.

You think Edward Snowden and Julian Assange were protected? One is holed up in the Equador embassy and the other is hiding in Russia.

Of course there might be high profile whistleblowers who didn't get punished. I don't know the facts.

by beshocked Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Secretfly? Logic? No You keep banging on about foreign players. It's irrelevant to the discussion. You have no salary cap - so stop lecturing us about "principles" and "salary cap".

Stop lecturing you because you don't like the logic put to you....and I'm not tied into any confidentiality agreements either

A Principle is a principle. Who broke theirs?

Secretfly.... to be honest I am tired of your ignorance, I have nothing more to say, push me any further and I'll put you on the ignore list. Your hypocrisy is getting on my nerves now. I am sick and tired of a sanctimonious Irish poster like you preaching about salary caps when you have none.

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:20 pm

poorfour, to be honest, if if there is a significant disagreement between the PRL and clubs about whether they breached the cap and a subsequent settlement between these clubs and the PRL to resolve these differences...then that fits my definition of cheating. It also fits in with my definition of a bribe.

The only question is whether we assume it's Saracens and Bath.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:21 pm

You may not like him preaching but it's not hypocrisy. If you had the chance to expose Bath and Saracens why wouldn't you beshocked?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:23 pm

Edward Griffiths admitted Saracens were being investigated, Nigel Wray claimed they were not.

One is a liar.

I suspect it is not the one who lost his job.

by BamBam Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:24 pm

beshocked wrote:
BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:Bambam whistleblowing could well be deemed as illegal.

.

No, it can't - if its true (which we all know it is)

https://www.gov.uk/whistleblowing/what-is-a-whistleblower

1. What is a whistleblower
You’re a whistleblower if you’re a worker and you report certain types of wrongdoing. This will usually be something you’ve seen at work - though not always.

The wrongdoing you disclose must be in the public interest. This means it must affect others, eg the general public.

As a whistleblower you’re protected by law - you shouldn’t be treated unfairly or lose your job because you ‘blow the whistle’.

You can raise your concern at any time about an incident that happened in the past, is happening now, or you believe will happen in the near future.

Complaints that count as whistleblowing
You’re protected by law if you report any of the following:

a criminal offence, eg fraud
someone’s health and safety is in danger
risk or actual damage to the environment
a miscarriage of justice
the company is breaking the law, eg doesn’t have the right insurance
you believe someone is covering up wrongdoing

Try it and see by all means. You involve lawyers particularly high powered ones and it could get messy.

You think Edward Snowden and Julian Assange were protected? One is holed up in the Equador embassy and the other is hiding in Russia.

Of course there might be high profile whistleblowers who didn't get punished. I don't know the facts.

Why on earth would I do it? Do you think I have access to evidence which I'm not sharing?

Its typical of bully boy snakes to hide behind lawyers when the going gets tough

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:25 pm

Beshocked, you're talking about treason there. That's what Snowdon is acused of. Assange is accused of sexual assault. Neither of those have any bearing on this case.

In the NHS (at least our Trust) there is a whistleblowing policy. You're supposed to go through several internal steps and if the resolution isn't acceptable you can go to the media. If you break that you can get sacked for breaching trust policy but it's not illegal. If you shared patient data as part of that you would be breaching Data Protection act, of course, but that's different again.

The only thing you would be culpable in this case would be breach of contract, and that would only happen if you had a contract. If someone in the media got hold of the records they could publish it no problem.

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:26 pm

beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Secretfly? Logic? No You keep banging on about foreign players. It's irrelevant to the discussion. You have no salary cap - so stop lecturing us about "principles" and "salary cap".

Stop lecturing you because you don't like the logic put to you....and I'm not tied into any confidentiality agreements either

A Principle is a principle. Who broke theirs?

Secretfly.... to be honest I am tired of your ignorance, I have nothing more to say, push me any further and I'll put you on the ignore list. Your hypocrisy is getting on my nerves now. I am sick and tired of a sanctimonious Irish poster like you preaching about salary caps when you have none.

Put me on ignore. Chunky has me there too. Another guy that has trouble listening to the logic of an opposing view. Oh and sorry about the French game Wink

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Edward Griffiths admitted Saracens were being investigated, Nigel Wray claimed they were not.

One is a liar.

I suspect it is not the one who lost his job.

Wray said they weren't being investigated at that time. Was that after it had been temporarily suspended? I don't think any of these guys would outright lie, but they're damn fine at playing with words.

Edit: fly, you're on my 'foe' list, too. I always have a look at what you have to say but then at least I'm asking for it Wink

by beshocked Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:34 pm

no 7 & 1/2 I would need the details in front of me to make a decision.

You say why wouldn't I. If someone trusted me with confidential information I would have to think hard about breaking that trust.

It is hypocrisy.

Secretfly I have no trouble listening to logic but ignorant and sanctimonious tossers like you sicken me. You claim to know more than you do about this salary cap mess.

If you want to speak with logic then learn from a poster like Londontiger.

Hammerofthunor well we'll see how that unfolds. Snowdon and Assange weren't accused of whistleblowing but that's what they did.

Londontiger perhaps not but that's not what the disagreement is about.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:38 pm

It's a made up situation. say you haven't been trusted but you find proof on the photocopier.

It's really not hypocrisy, not by the defnition of hypocrisy anyway.

And you're throwing insults again, no need, count to 10.

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:38 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:

Edit: fly, you're on my 'foe' list, too. I always have a look at what you have to say but then at least I'm asking for it

There's a fee, fiy, foe list too?

Where do you guys find these toys??? Wink

I'm way behind the times. The only buttons I know are 'Preview' 'Send' and 'Send Sanctimoniously'

by beshocked Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:42 pm

I can't be bothered posting on this thread anymore. You can speculate about %&*on your own.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:44 pm

In the time honored tradition I win then beshocked. Feel free to calm down and try again when you're up to it.

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:45 pm

Don't you have to do something to set yourself up as a naughty naughty boy (edit: seems tossers is ok but naughty naughty boy isn't) as well? Need to look into that.

NB Just in case you're being serious, if you go to someone's profile there are two buttons. Add as a friend and add as a foe. Foe means that their comments are hidden but can be seen by clicking on them. No idea what friends do, I don't have any Smile

by yappysnap Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:49 pm

Finally!

by Poorfour Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:52 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:poorfour, to be honest, if if there is a significant disagreement between the PRL and clubs about whether they breached the cap and a subsequent settlement between these clubs and the PRL to resolve these differences...then that fits my definition of cheating. It also fits in with my definition of a bribe.

The only question is whether we assume it's Saracens and Bath.

That was kind of my point. But we're not allowed to call it cheating, because the PRL and Messrs Craig and Wray's lawyers and beshocked say not.

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:53 pm

If a trusted friend gave me that information I would have a think about (or just ask) why that information was being given to me. What other purpose is there other than to pass it beyond those bound by the confidentiality agreement? So I would feel obligated to pass it on.

Just because it kind of passed by, I would freaking love it if Bath and saracens joined the Pro12. That would be awesome.

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:54 pm

Poorfour wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:poorfour, to be honest, if if there is a significant disagreement between the PRL and clubs about whether they breached the cap and a subsequent settlement between these clubs and the PRL to resolve these differences...then that fits my definition of cheating. It also fits in with my definition of a bribe.

The only question is whether we assume it's Saracens and Bath.

That was kind of my point. But we're not allowed to call it cheating, because the PRL and Messrs Craig and Wray's lawyers and beshocked say not.

Until the mods/admin get on board with that I'll carry on Smile

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:57 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:

NB Just in case you're being serious, if you go to someone's profile there are two buttons. Add as a friend and add as a foe. Foe means that their comments are hidden but can be seen by clicking on them. No idea what friends do, I don't have any

I wasn't being serious but actually neither did I seriously know where those buttons are, as I'd never remotely think of using them. I'll stomach any crap coming my way. It ain't the real world. Turning off the computer is the best button of all.

"So use it Fly!!!!!! mad

"

by Guest Wed 28 Oct 2015, 12:59 pm

beshocked wrote:I can't be bothered posting on this thread anymore. You can speculate about %&*on your own.

♩ ♬
Ding dong the ...
♫

by Heaf Wed 28 Oct 2015, 1:09 pm

BamBam wrote:Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666
Unconfirmed but well sourced rumour Bruce Craig in Ireland discussing breakaway for Bath to pro12 if PRL don't stop clubs making statements

Fly, fancy this?

Seems a bit far fetched but if true and it's another tactic to try to cover this all up I'd happily wave them goodbye ...

by Guest Wed 28 Oct 2015, 1:11 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:If a trusted friend gave me that information I would have a think about (or just ask) why that information was being given to me. What other purpose is there other than to pass it beyond those bound by the confidentiality agreement? So I would feel obligated to pass it on.

Just because it kind of passed by, I would freaking love it if Bath and saracens joined the Pro12. That would be awesome.

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 1:18 pm

Heaf wrote:
BamBam wrote:Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666
Unconfirmed but well sourced rumour Bruce Craig in Ireland discussing breakaway for Bath to pro12 if PRL don't stop clubs making statements

Fly, fancy this?

Seems a bit far fetched but if true and it's another tactic to try to cover this all up I'd happily wave them goodbye ...

On entering the Pro12:

Craig: "Now listen up you Westerly half-men of wildernessland.......... we can't be having this lack of professionalism in the ranks pertaining to cheating refs............"
Regions: "Hail Craig! Hail Craig"
Irish: Bang! Bang!................... Bang!.................................................................Bang!

Pro12: "Anyone else from AP interested in joining???? Space vacant...rent reasonable?"

by HongKongCherry Wed 28 Oct 2015, 1:27 pm

Heaf wrote:
BamBam wrote:Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666
Unconfirmed but well sourced rumour Bruce Craig in Ireland discussing breakaway for Bath to pro12 if PRL don't stop clubs making statements

Fly, fancy this?

Seems a bit far fetched but if true and it's another tactic to try to cover this all up I'd happily wave them goodbye ...

I agree this seems far fetched, but whilst I'd very much miss the derby games against Bath I don't think either they or Sarries would be massively missed, as neither have huge fan bases. What would be particularly poetic would be if either joined the Pro 12 and the RFU deemed their players as playing overseas; it would create a mass exodus from both sides. Schadenfreude, me? Never! Wink

by carpet baboon Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:33 pm

Anyone else think beshocked may be George (Gideon ) Osbourne? There tantrums seem very similar?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:50 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:
Heaf wrote:
BamBam wrote:Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666
Unconfirmed but well sourced rumour Bruce Craig in Ireland discussing breakaway for Bath to pro12 if PRL don't stop clubs making statements

Fly, fancy this?

Seems a bit far fetched but if true and it's another tactic to try to cover this all up I'd happily wave them goodbye ...

I agree this seems far fetched, but whilst I'd very much miss the derby games against Bath I don't think either they or Sarries would be massively missed, as neither have huge fan bases. What would be particularly poetic would be if either joined the Pro 12 and the RFU deemed their players as playing overseas; it would create a mass exodus from both sides. Schadenfreude, me? Never!

Wouldn't the players be contract tied?

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 3:09 pm

Well considering the two................. non-named teams.............. are allegedly making enquiries about joining a League outside the jurisdiction of the RFU, and considering in all likelihood they'd still try to base themselves in their current locations etc etc......................... then why would Pro12 be their natural port of call anyway?

I'd think Top14 (forever promising to go to Top16) would be a more lucrative destination for two such ambitious clubs, with ambitious owners, restrained by the small mindedness of their fellow APers?

How would the RFU like that? The Top14(16) operating in their own territory and competing directly against the AP product?

The sparks have only began if any of these 'speculative' issues concerning an elopement of two AP sides to rival Leagues become more solid proposals in the weeks/months ahead.

by Poorfour Wed 28 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:Well considering the two................. non-named teams.............. are allegedly making enquiries about joining a League outside the jurisdiction of the RFU, and considering in all likelihood they'd still try to base themselves in their current locations etc etc......................... then why would Pro12 be their natural port of call anyway?

I'd think Top14 (forever promising to go to Top16) would be a more lucrative destination for two such ambitious clubs, with ambitious owners, restrained by the small mindedness of their fellow APers?

How would the RFU like that? The Top14(16) operating in their own territory and competing directly against the AP product?

The sparks have only began if any of these 'speculative' issues concerning an elopement of two AP sides to rival Leagues become more solid proposals in the weeks/months ahead.

It's got very little to do with the RFU - they don't have the level of control of the clubs that the IRFU does the provinces (We've been through this before, 007. Do pay attention). The RFU delegates the running of an English club comp to the PRL and has an agreement about how EPS players are handled. And that's it.

The only definite thing would be that the RFU and PRL would - for the moment - continue to refuse to pick players based outside the PRL and therefore outside the EPS system. And if the players' advisors aren't completely stupid, they will have contract clauses that allow them to leave if the club leaves the AP. It'll be written with relegation in mind, but if it's been well drafted it'll cover *any* exit.

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 3:47 pm

They'd have a big say in Top14 or indeed Pro12 acting in their sphere of influence. They would Poorfour.

It would be another legal can of worms as Leagues and sponsorship and TV rights and Unions are all tried up in differing strands.... they don't all exist in perfect isolation and RFU does not exist in perfect isolation of the Professional rugby taking place in its sphere of influence.

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 3:51 pm

It's all crap anyway...it seems! (as if ever it was anything else). Moore has admitted he was had by a spoofer....

possibly some wiseguy within the IRFU itself.....

by carpet baboon Wed 28 Oct 2015, 4:43 pm

Admit it fly it was you

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 5:23 pm

I'd love had I thought of it, carpet....I do not lie..............

.... I mean...................

well............

.....let's leave it there, shall we Whistle

by yappysnap Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:00 pm

Quins statement

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11960676/Harlequins-director-of-rugby-Conor-OShea-says-club-will-never-break-salary-cap-while-he-remains-in-charge.html

"Conor O'Shea, the Harlequins director of rugby, reveals his club were not investigated for breaking Premiership salary cap rules"

by ChequeredJersey Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:03 pm

Technically he doesn't say we weren't under investigation. But, and I may be biased, his statement seems pretty unambiguous to me

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:04 pm

So that's Wasps, Sale, Worcester, Newcastle and Quins down. It'll be interesting to see what happens next.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:09 pm

Gloucester next I reckon

by Guest Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:10 pm

by Guest Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:12 pm

While it might be better than nothing, releasing a statement saying 'we didn't break the cap' isn't good enough. If the terms of the settlement included an agreement that exploiting the previous loophole didn't constitute breaking the cap it allows the guilty teams to truthfully (in a legal sense) say they didn't break the cap either. The clubs need to follow Wasps in clearly stating they weren't one of the two teams who paid the financial settlement, as that will tell us much more. Or force the 2 clubs to lie at least.

by HammerofThunor Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:13 pm

Quoting yourself Fuzzy? Good point but that's taking it a bit far I think.

by Guest Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:22 pm

i dun no how to 2 use dem fancy compootors

by TJ Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:46 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:
Heaf wrote:
BamBam wrote:Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666
Unconfirmed but well sourced rumour Bruce Craig in Ireland discussing breakaway for Bath to pro12 if PRL don't stop clubs making statements

Fly, fancy this?

Seems a bit far fetched but if true and it's another tactic to try to cover this all up I'd happily wave them goodbye ...

I agree this seems far fetched, but whilst I'd very much miss the derby games against Bath I don't think either they or Sarries would be massively missed, as neither have huge fan bases. What would be particularly poetic would be if either joined the Pro 12 and the RFU deemed their players as playing overseas; it would create a mass exodus from both sides. Schadenfreude, me? Never!

I very much doubt they would be allowed in. Who is going to drop out and why would we want a team that can outspend everyone by a huge amount in the competition?

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:48 pm

Mark Smith sounds angry.

The league might well be worried about the legal and financial cost of coming clean, but I’d be more concerned about the price of a prolonged cover-up from an increasingly enraged and disenfranchised rugby public.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/newcastle-falcons-guilty-anyone-premierships-10346778

Who knows? this issue might all blow over. I think, though, the Premiership was hoping to slip a deal through in an atmosphere of rugby love generated by the World Cup. They didn't anticipate England's early exit and a mood of general disenchantment. They may come to regret not dealing with the dirty laundry at the end of last season.

by Knackeredknees Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:08 pm

Sorry how did sarries get dragged into the whole pro12 thing? Wasn't it just bath???

by SecretFly Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:17 pm

It wasn't Bath either... it was balderdash. I guess anyone can be added to a Balderdash story.

by Heaf Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:19 pm

Which league do they play in?

by HongKongCherry Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:37 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Gloucester next I reckon

It certainly appears so. Ryan Walkinshaw tweeted earlier:

"Hey @gloucesterrugby we hear you and will be obviously making a statement, just want to make sure we do it in right way, hence the delay!"

And

"Besides I have hardly been shy in the past to express my views in support of salary cap and have fought hard last 9 months in support!"

by carpet baboon Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:57 pm

Ryan will be the one who brings the straw to break the camels back

by HongKongCherry Thu 29 Oct 2015, 1:27 pm

Glaws are the next to confirm we didn't break the cap

http://www.gloucesterrugby.co.uk/news/11858.php#.VjIenNLhCHt

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 Oct 2015, 1:31 pm

More importantly they specifically said they weren't one of the clubs referred to in the PRL's statement. Although I'd disagree that the cap levels going forward are right. They're way too high as far as I'm concerned.

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