England v Wales, 26 September

by **George Carlin** Sun 20 Sep 2015, 6:52 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales, 26 September - Page 6 Englan10

England v Wales, 26 September - Page 6 Wales_11

ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND
England v Wales, 26 September - Page 6 Emily_10

England v Wales, 26 September - Page 6 Emily_10

[tbc]

WALES
England v Wales, 26 September - Page 6 Perdit10

[tbc]

by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:16 pm

It will most likely be Amos, with Cuthbert and North on the wings (after that I think we've somehow run out of back 3 players). Going by form England clearly have the better back 3. Front row and back 3 could be the most crucial areas in this game.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:17 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:The injury to Lee is the real biggie here. If he makes it then I see this as a 50/50 game. Without him then I think England will have the edge at the set piece.

Who is the back-up to Liam Williams at 15? Sounds like he'll make it but who is next? Amos? Priestland?

If Lee is out then Francis will step in and hopefully give us a good 50-60 minutes but after that then there is a problem, even if he is fit I don't rate Jarvis and after him it's likely to be Scott Andrews Doh

.

As for XV then I would guess its Amos after Williams and hope it's not Priestland.

by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:The injury to Lee is the real biggie here. If he makes it then I see this as a 50/50 game. Without him then I think England will have the edge at the set piece.

Who is the back-up to Liam Williams at 15? Sounds like he'll make it but who is next? Amos? Priestland?

It should be chuffing Dan Evans from Ospreys, but it will more than likely be Matthew Morgan or Hallam Amos.

Dan Evans! A lot like Priestland he isn't cut out for international level. He even struggles against good teams for the Ospreys.

by LordDowlais Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:19 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais more mind games. Both will start. Gatland is just trying to keep England guessing.

I hope you are right. Fingers Crossed

by TJ Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:It will most likely be Amos, with Cuthbert and North on the wings (after that I think we've somehow run out of back 3 players). Going by form England clearly have the better back 3. Front row and back 3 could be the most crucial areas in this game.

England have the faster back 3 - it will be an interesting match up tho - Can north run thru his opposite number? Can May run away from Cuthbert? which wings will actually get to see the ball? Will wales continue to kick downfeild? England will counter all day if they do.

Looking forward to the match for sure

by LordDowlais Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:The injury to Lee is the real biggie here. If he makes it then I see this as a 50/50 game. Without him then I think England will have the edge at the set piece.

Who is the back-up to Liam Williams at 15? Sounds like he'll make it but who is next? Amos? Priestland?

It should be chuffing Dan Evans from Ospreys, but it will more than likely be Matthew Morgan or Hallam Amos.

Dan Evans! A lot like Priestland he isn't cut out for international level. He even struggles against good teams for the Ospreys.

At least he is an actual full back. Not a wing or an outside half.

by lostinwales Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:21 pm

rodders wrote:And don't forget Gat's picked Andy Farrell to coach on with the Lions specifically to get an insight as to how he operates with this game in mind.

He might look a bit silly but he's a canny operator is old Warren...

Don't forget he also used the Lions to break some key England players. Tuilagi still isnt right and Croft is long gone. Who knows what he did to Cole. We are just lucky that Ben Youngs managed to mend - I think...

by beshocked Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:22 pm

England's bench is what Wales need to most worry about.

If England are struggling at key areas then powerful reinforcements can be called upon.

The bench all made a difference vs Fiji and turned an edgy finish into a convincing finish.

Feel that Wales will need to be more than 7 points ahead with 20 minutes to go to win because of this.

by trebellbobaggins Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:23 pm

BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Cyril wrote:beshocked, I've tended to feel a degree of sympathy for your views in the past because Sarries (and their players) are often given a rough ride. However, I think you've just been itching to have a go at certain players and maybe you just like an argument?

Criticising May for basically recovering from a standing start against one of the quickest 9s in the game is a bit odd. He's been one of the form players and is scoring tries.

For the record I think Ashton is a better and more-rounded player than many suggest but he's currently in the chasing pack of about 6 players behind the incumbents. Maybe he's been unlucky that his being out of the squad was timed with a period when the wingers got more ball, but that's life.

Maybe we can pick this up after the next round of Champions Cup games and moving into the 6 Nations selections? Obviously, bar injuries, there won't be any changes.

Nowell has been playing well too (one of the few that were good in France) but he's having to be patient too.

I was criticising May for letting Matawalu in the first place, not for his cover tackle that was him basically making up for letting the bloke past.

Anyway I am moving on now.

I think the Welsh are playing mind games.

Saying how crippling the injuries are when in reality they'll be ready, fit and well prepared.

This is a Welsh side that destroyed Uruguay and won 4 consecutive games in the 6 nations finishing on a high.

The world class TH Samson Lee will be back, he will relish being part of a Welsh scrum that will take on an English scrum which has been struggling for consistency.

The Welsh 2nd row will target the English lineout as they know that T.Youngs is not the most solid thrower.

In the backrow they will have two 7s - Warburton and Tipuric against England's two 6.5s. Should be able to have a field day at the breakdown with turnovers galore!

Faletau will relish running at England as he did in the 6 nations this year......

At scrum half they will have an unknown quantity which will make them quite dangerous and unpredictable.

10 they have one of the best goal kickers in rugby union, a warrior and a hero of Wales. The loss of Halfpenny will not be felt because Biggar is just that good at goal kicking.

Jamie Roberts will enjoy running at either the out of sorts Barritt or the rookie Burgess who positionally could be caught out.

Scott Williams will still have fond memories of ripping the ball from Lawes in 2013 and will look to do the same again!

North will like to see if he can run over Watson whose not exactly famed for his defensive ability.

Liam Williams adds excitement that Halfpenny wouldn't dream of.

As for the bench.....

Except for lack of strength of depth still plenty for Wales to be optimistic about.

I don't even know why we're turning up

It's time to do the decent thing to be honest. Shake on it, accept the defeat and let Wales prepare for their real contests in the pool.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:24 pm

beshocked wrote:England's bench is what Wales need to most worry about.

If England are struggling at key areas then powerful reinforcements can be called upon.

The bench all made a difference vs Fiji and turned an edgy finish into a convincing finish.

Feel that Wales will need to be more than 7 points ahead with 20 minutes to go to win because of this.

I would say more than 10 ahead with less than 10 to go against England and Australia, we have seen many times in the past that we struggle to close games out.

by Hoonercat Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:40 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Beshocked you sure do know how to give us Wales fans a confidence boost. It depends on the severity of Williams' apparent dead leg. Depending on the swelling he could be out for 2 weeks. Lee is certainly cropped, again, but I don't think it is Achilles related(?) Either way if he start he'll surely go off injured again.

Beshocked is England's very own Gatland, it's all mind games lads censored

by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:The injury to Lee is the real biggie here. If he makes it then I see this as a 50/50 game. Without him then I think England will have the edge at the set piece.

Who is the back-up to Liam Williams at 15? Sounds like he'll make it but who is next? Amos? Priestland?

It should be chuffing Dan Evans from Ospreys, but it will more than likely be Matthew Morgan or Hallam Amos.

Dan Evans! A lot like Priestland he isn't cut out for international level. He even struggles against good teams for the Ospreys.

At least he is an actual full back. Not a wing or an outside half.

Yet he's played at outside half. Either way he isn't a better wing than Cuthbert. He isn't a better wing or full back than Amos. I don't think Amos or Cuthbert were great (like a lot of backs) against Uruguay, but Dan Evans isn't the answer.

by fa0019 Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:44 pm

For me the big question in AW Jones' conditioning. Will he play but more importantly will he be able to give his best?

by LordDowlais Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:45 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:He isn't a better wing or full back than Amos

He is a much better fullback than Amos. Wing no, fullback, yes. I am not asking him to play on the wing, I am asking for him to play at fullback. We have Amos and Cuthbert for the wing.

by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:46 pm

TJ wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It will most likely be Amos, with Cuthbert and North on the wings (after that I think we've somehow run out of back 3 players). Going by form England clearly have the better back 3. Front row and back 3 could be the most crucial areas in this game.

England have the faster back 3 - it will be an interesting match up tho - Can north run thru his opposite number? Can May run away from Cuthbert? which wings will actually get to see the ball? Will wales continue to kick downfeild? England will counter all day if they do.

Looking forward to the match for sure

Yeah I'd say England definitely look faster, they especially will be if Williams is unavailable. North can run through his opposite number and I'd back him 5 metres out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he will. One major area where England will have the upper hand, IMO, is the high ball contest. Without Halfpenny or Williams we won't be as good at fielding the ball as we have been in the past. I would prefer us to keep ball in hand and not kick it to their back 3 for the reasons you state. We need to adopt the game plan we have employed against France to stand a good chance of winning.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:50 pm

fa0019 wrote:For me the big question in AW Jones' conditioning. Will he play but more importantly will he be able to give his best?

fa,

I think he's the type of player who will always give his all and bust a gut fight through the pain etc. He will then be rested for the Fiji game to do it all again against the Aussies.

by fa0019 Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:51 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
fa0019 wrote:For me the big question in AW Jones' conditioning. Will he play but more importantly will he be able to give his best?

fa,

I think he's the type of player who will always give his all and bust a gut fight through the pain etc. He will then be rested for the Fiji game to do it all again against the Aussies.

He will give his all yes but will it be up to his own standards?

He's been out for a while right?

by Poorfour Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:52 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
beshocked wrote:England's bench is what Wales need to most worry about.

If England are struggling at key areas then powerful reinforcements can be called upon.

The bench all made a difference vs Fiji and turned an edgy finish into a convincing finish.

Feel that Wales will need to be more than 7 points ahead with 20 minutes to go to win because of this.

I would say more than 10 ahead with less than 10 to go against England and Australia, we have seen many times in the past that we struggle to close games out.

That feels about right. England have also geared their training towards finishing strongly and have some interesting bench options. If Burgess and Brown can sharpen their offloading to each other even a fraction, then they could make big holes in a tiring defence.

I also suspect that England will try to put the ball behind Cuthbert and North quite a bit and rely on Watson, Joseph and May's speed, plus Amos's inexperience to force mistakes or regain possession.

Wales look to me to have 3 main areas of advantage: the lineout, particularly attacking England's throws; the centres, if Barritt has another off day; and the breakdown - provided they can get on Garces' wavelength, which I think is not as easy as it might seem. The scrum we probably won't know about until the match starts - but England will probably have the edge once the replacements come on.

England will do well if they can get their setpiece working reliably and then hit it up through the middle until they've drawn in enough defenders to have space out wide or behind the Welsh line. In defence, they are unlikely to contest many rucks and will try to get fast line speed to stop Roberts, North and Cuthbert getting up to speed. The last couple of games have had long periods in the middle of the game where they've shown that they can absorb the pressure for long periods without conceding tries. If they can continue to do that and not concede too many penalties, their attack is working well enough to get the job done. The penalty count against Fiji was higher than is ideal - but Peyper is one of the refs England struggle with, and IIRC it's an improvement over the second France game.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:53 pm

fa0019 wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
fa0019 wrote:For me the big question in AW Jones' conditioning. Will he play but more importantly will he be able to give his best?

fa,

I think he's the type of player who will always give his all and bust a gut fight through the pain etc. He will then be rested for the Fiji game to do it all again against the Aussies.

He will give his all yes but will it be up to his own standards?

He's been out for a while right?

Yeah I think it will be up to his standard. He took a knock but has had time to recover in camp

by majesticimperialman Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:54 pm

I am sure i just read that Warburton left the field with a tight groin. Will he be fit for the game.

by BamBam Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:54 pm

I'm pretty sure that Liam Williams will play, but if he doesn't, how is Amos under the high ball? Our back 3 have been pretty good in that area throughout the warm ups and Fiji, and I've never thought of North and Cuthbert as particularly strong there either.

Could be something to target

by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:01 pm

BamBam wrote:I'm pretty sure that Liam Williams will play, but if he doesn't, how is Amos under the high ball? Our back 3 have been pretty good in that area throughout the warm ups and Fiji, and I've never thought of North and Cuthbert as particularly strong there either.

Could be something to target

He's good, but when challenged he will struggle. You could just do what Italy did, jump up and put off our catcher whilst pretending you're going for the ball.

by GavinDragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:26 pm

Can't say I am feeling overly positive for this one. I don't think we have shown anything in attack since the Italian game. Hope we have been holding stuff back but you never know with Gatland & co

by Shifty Mon 21 Sep 2015, 6:09 pm

At the end of the day the score is going to start at 0-0 and anything can happen really. All the pressure is on England in all honesty as Wales have been all but written off.

by majesticimperialman Mon 21 Sep 2015, 6:49 pm

Shifty wrote:At the end of the day the score is going to start at 0-0 and anything can happen really. All the pressure is on England in all honesty as Wales have been all but written off.

BY WHO?

by Scottrf Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:43 pm

The Welsh fans.

by Cyril Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:50 pm

Re. the photos (remember the Gambon debate!)

Isn't Emily Blunt now American?

I had no idea who the other lady was so I backwards-Googled her and discovered it was Perdita Weeks. No wiser, I then looked at her wiki page. Seems she's been in period dramas. I still have no idea who she is Headscratch

by trebellbobaggins Mon 21 Sep 2015, 8:23 pm

Shifty wrote:At the end of the day the score is going to start at 0-0 and anything can happen really. All the pressure is on England in all honesty as Wales have been all but written off.

most people I speak to down here in Cornwall have them pegged as favourites to be honest.

by majesticimperialman Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:29 pm

Scottrf wrote:The Welsh fans.

OH well, i guess they know best. Whistle

by Liam Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:42 pm

As bad as our injuries have been, the big positives from the warm ups and the Uruguay game have been the scrum, line out and driving maul. If we can continue to execute those three aspects well, then I feel we still have a very good chance of getting a result at HQ. IMO Tips and Warbs both have to start, and fingers crossed Liam Williams and Samson Lee are fine for the game.

by maestegmafia Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:18 pm

Liam wrote:As bad as our injuries have been, the big positives from the warm ups and the Uruguay game have been the scrum, line out and driving maul. If we can continue to execute those three aspects well, then I feel we still have a very good chance of getting a result at HQ. IMO Tips and Warbs both have to start, and fingers crossed Liam Williams and Samson Lee are fine for the game.

I thought gareth Davies had a good game too. His pass is superb and he has plenty of pace.

by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:22 pm

We didn't do well in scrums against Italy, and had mixed results against Ireland. So for me that is still an area of concern. They 'hope' Williams will be fit for the England game, so that hopefully means we can drop Cuthbert.

by maestegmafia Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:50 pm

Italy's scrum was very good against France on the weekend

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:58 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:We didn't do well in scrums against Italy

Which bearing in mind how poor the Italian scrum was against Scotland and France should be a worry.

Except you are playing England - with the worst scrum in the tournament.

Wales clear favourites.

by SecretFly Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:03 pm

Gatland has a special plan.
He has one or two fail-safe tide turning gameplays ready.
Will Lancaster sense what they might be?

Que: Eastenders Dramatic Outro!

by bedfordwelsh Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:50 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
Shifty wrote:At the end of the day the score is going to start at 0-0 and anything can happen really. All the pressure is on England in all honesty as Wales have been all but written off.

BY WHO?

Most pundits (yeah what do they know) have us as the ones least likely to make it through so guess we have been written off even before ball was kicked.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:53 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Liam wrote:As bad as our injuries have been, the big positives from the warm ups and the Uruguay game have been the scrum, line out and driving maul. If we can continue to execute those three aspects well, then I feel we still have a very good chance of getting a result at HQ. IMO Tips and Warbs both have to start, and fingers crossed Liam Williams and Samson Lee are fine for the game.

I thought gareth Davies had a good game too. His pass is superb and he has plenty of pace.

Maes,

To be honest before injury then Davies was pushing Webb all way to be successor to Phillips so not much of a surprise. As Webb took his chance let's hope Davies now takes his.

by **George Carlin** Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:08 am

majesticimperialman wrote:I am sure i just read that Warburton left the field with a tight groin.

Well, I mean we've all been there.

by maestegmafia Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:02 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Liam wrote:As bad as our injuries have been, the big positives from the warm ups and the Uruguay game have been the scrum, line out and driving maul. If we can continue to execute those three aspects well, then I feel we still have a very good chance of getting a result at HQ. IMO Tips and Warbs both have to start, and fingers crossed Liam Williams and Samson Lee are fine for the game.

I thought gareth Davies had a good game too. His pass is superb and he has plenty of pace.

Maes,

To be honest before injury then Davies was pushing Webb all way to be successor to Phillips so not much of a surprise. As Webb took his chance let's hope Davies now takes his.

Considering how little game time Davies has had in the last 20 months he is doing very well...

by kingelderfield Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:16 am

More fatties to start, better execution behind;

marler, webber, cole
launchbury, lawes
robshaw, vunipola, wood

youngs, ford
slade, joseph
watson, brown, may

vunipola, youngs, brookes
parling, morgan

care, farrell, burgess

by Jimpy Tue 22 Sep 2015, 9:18 am

One thing is for sure, if Wales lose, or even draw this game, they can book the bus back home...

by TightHEAD Tue 22 Sep 2015, 9:31 am

and if they win I hope the local Golf courses lock up their Buggies.

by maestegmafia Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:20 am

kingelderfield wrote:More fatties to start, better execution behind;

marler, webber, cole
launchbury, lawes
robshaw, vunipola, wood

youngs, ford
slade, joseph
watson, brown, may

vunipola, youngs, brookes
parling, morgan

care, farrell, burgess

I think that back line would cause Wales a lot of trouble. I think we are hoping Barrit doesn't lose his place or he is replaced with Burgess... Spade and Joseph are very talented players.

by maestegmafia Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:23 am

Twenty thousand opposition fans will travel to England’s HQ which will make the atmosphere for the crucial game electric

A quarter of the Twickenham crowd could be filled by Wales supporters for the crunch World Cup match against England on Saturday, almost four times the total for a normal Six Nations match, The Telegraph can reveal.

The prospect of around 20,000 Welsh supporters turning sections of England’s headquarters into 'little Cardiff’ for a game that was more oversubscribed than the World Cup final has the potential to create one of the most febrile atmospheres in the history of the World Cup.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11881291/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Wales-invasion-to-turn-Twickenham-factor-on-its-head.html

by BamBam Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:48 am

I think we'd be silly to go with a midfield of Ford/Slade/Joseph against Roberts, North and co.

I know the 3 of them are solid defenders, but that seems like asking for trouble

by fa0019 Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:51 am

No Parling either would be madness. Youngs needs his old reliable to keep him at satisfactory.

I'd consider bringing in Wilson for Cole. He doesn't deserve a place off the back of form 30 months ago.

by spaynter Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:52 am

Who's going to win this? It's a tricky one. It only makes sense if you look at it played over and over again.

With Wales' best side (JD2, Webb, HP, etc) I'd say England would win 6 times out of 10 at Twickenham. Like it or not, history tells us home advantage has a big say. (At a neutral venue, I'd say 5 wins each).

With Wales' injuries as they stand now (and they could get worse with Lee and Williams), I'd say England to win 6.5 times out of 10.

In a disaster scenario of those players (and James, etc) being out and having to draft in late, fresh players, I'd say England to win 7 times out of 10.

So roughly, England 2:1 on and Wales 2:1. No-one should be (or would be) surprised if the 'underdog' (if it can be called that at 2:1) comes in at those odds.

Bookies currently have it at 3:1....... I'm not so sure.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:55 am

Cole was good in my opinion in the 6Ns, showed good form for Leicester as well from what I've seen though their fans have probably seen more?

by mckay1402 Tue 22 Sep 2015, 11:59 am

I can't see Wales winning this sadly. Normally I feel like they'll be in with a shout but not this time.

by fa0019 Tue 22 Sep 2015, 12:00 pm

Difficult to look past England on this one. Gatland seems to up his verbals when he's up against it.

However, it all depends on 1 man. Tom Youngs.

Most know I don't rate him but his importance is key. If he can win his scrums, win his lineouts, England will win because his game outside of that is v. impressive.
However if he has a mare (good to likely), England will really really suffer.

He's the most important player on the pitch come Saturday, for both sides.

Wales should target him, England should wrap him up.

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