England v Wales - Part 2, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

M Brown (Harlequins); A Watson (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), S Burgess (Bath), J May (Gloucester); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), G Parling (Exeter), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), K Brookes (Northampton), J Launchbury (Wasps), J Haskell (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens).

WALES

Liam Williams (Scarlets); G North (Northampton), S Williams (Scarlets), J Roberts (Harlequins), H Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons); D Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), S Baldwin (Ospreys), T Francis (Exeter), B Davies (Wasps), A-W Jones (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

Replacements: K Owens (Scarlets), A Jarvis (Ospreys), S Lee (Scarlets), L Charteris (Racing 92), J Tipuric (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), R Priestland (Bath), A Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues).

My tuppence on the game would be that Wales looked supremely fit. That is the guys who actually survived the test match.

It seems the Welsh hardcore training camp has been rather Darwinesque.

Survival of the fittest. Those who's bodies that haven't been smashed to smithereens now appear to be at super human levels of fitness.

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

First glance it looked like an NFL style shoulder to knee type hit. Not good at all. Got to go with the Ref's view as he did check it out carefully

As someone has already said, England's players need to stop jumping into tackles - This seems to be part of their strategy with May being the biggest proponent. At least with this being highlighted referees will now become increasingly aware and penalise accordingly

I keep saying this but if you think May and Wood here jumped what law are they breaking?

RubyGuby wrote:SOS - The voice of reason as usual - Top Poster in amongst the emotional cauldron and agony of defeat and the euphoria of victory.

Cheers, RubyGuby. The defeat still hurts and rankles but you have to accept in the end that one side wins and one side loses. There's so much we all feel but I find it's always best in the end to take a big deep breath before posting!

Looking forward, I disagree (as I often do) with Gatland. All the pressure is not, as he suggests, on England: that's a poor WUM. It is now fairly and squarely on Wales. They have got themselves into pole position in the group now, but that will be for nothing if they flunk it against Fiji. With so many injuries - even if they call up replacements - and a fired up Fiji probably less far behind Aus and England than the scorelines suggested, Wales now are in a similar position to England last Saturday: defeat is unthinkable. And yet, at the back of the mind...

For England, however, the situation is 100% clear: beat Aus or leave our own party embarrassingly early.

RubyGuby wrote:As someone has already said, England's players need to stop jumping into tackles - This seems to be part of their strategy with May being the biggest proponent. At least with this being highlighted referees will now become increasingly aware and penalise accordingly

Maybe they learned off Shane Williams who was a great exponent of that skill.....

lostinwales wrote:

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

First glance it looked like an NFL style shoulder to knee type hit. Not good at all. Got to go with the Ref's view as he did check it out carefully

He definitely jumped the tackle in my opinion. Should have been penalised.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I keep saying this but if you think May and Wood here jumped what law are they breaking?

There is no specific rule, but it is illegal if it is deemed to be dangerous (ie. a boot could easily land on a defenders head), but it is down to the ref's interpretation.

Here is one being penalised

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/10/2785/friday-funnies-sione-kalamafoni-penalised-for-hurdling-a-tackler

Yeah, so in these 2 occasions (May and Wood) they really weren't dangerous. Lydiate did however tackle without using his arms ie a clothesline is more Hulk Hogan than Joe Worsley!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:As someone has already said, England's players need to stop jumping into tackles - This seems to be part of their strategy with May being the biggest proponent. At least with this being highlighted referees will now become increasingly aware and penalise accordingly

Maybe they learned off Shane Williams who was a great exponent of that skill.....

I think he tried to jump out of them rather than into them GF

RubyGuby wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:As someone has already said, England's players need to stop jumping into tackles - This seems to be part of their strategy with May being the biggest proponent. At least with this being highlighted referees will now become increasingly aware and penalise accordingly

Maybe they learned off Shane Williams who was a great exponent of that skill.....

I think he tried to jump out of them rather than into them GF

Sure he did

No 7&1/2 wrote:I keep saying this but if you think May and Wood here jumped what law are they breaking?

Law 10 covers dangerous play but I don't think there is specific reference to jumping the tackle. However, I believe that a ref can judge any such example as dangerous and award a penalty. My own view, is that jumping can clearly result in an injury to the takler and quite probably the ball carrier too. Perhaps there is a case for a law amendment to clarify.

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

Clip is pretty clear - where are all these people getting the idea he jumped into the tackle from?

Heaf wrote:Clip is pretty clear - where are all these people getting the idea he jumped into the tackle from?

Yes it is pretty clear Lydiate is going into the tackle with his arms coming around, Woods then leaves the ground and jumps to avoid the tackle, and gets hit by Lydiates shoulder as his arms are trying to come around. If Woods did not leave the ground, then we would not be talking about this.

He wasn't using his arms there LD come on. Even if he didn't end up arse over it's still a foul.

...more trials and tribulations of officialdom?

Heaf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

Clip is pretty clear - where are all these people getting the idea he jumped into the tackle from?

Most people jump one leg at a time when running rather than both at the same time. It was a jump, whatever spin you want to put on it.

Chop tackles do not propel people in the air they make them hit the dirt.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

First glance it looked like an NFL style shoulder to knee type hit. Not good at all. Got to go with the Ref's view as he did check it out carefully

He definitely jumped the tackle in my opinion. Should have been penalised.

He definitely did not. Look at it very carefully. His upper body is almost horizontal his right leg is on the ground and Lydiate hits just above his right knee with his right shoulder. Lydiate's right arm is coming round but slowly. Given that Wood's center of gravity is in front of where he is hit he just flips right up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't using his arms there LD come on. Even if he didn't end up arse over it's still a foul.

Even in the still frame you can see his arms are out ready to wrap around. Unless I am looking at a different tackle with the same two players at a different point in the game. Lydiates arms are outstretched and ready to close around him, what stopped it happening was Woods feet in the air.

Wood's right foot is clearly still on the ground when Lydiates shoulder makes contact (18 seconds in) - I really can't see where this idea he jumps is coming from.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

First glance it looked like an NFL style shoulder to knee type hit. Not good at all. Got to go with the Ref's view as he did check it out carefully

He definitely jumped the tackle in my opinion. Should have been penalised.

He definitely did not. Look at it very carefully. His upper body is almost horizontal his right leg is on the ground and Lydiate hits just above his right knee with his right shoulder. Lydiate's right arm is coming round but slowly. Given that Wood's center of gravity is in front of where he is hit he just flips right up.

He was propelling himself over Lydiate with his right foot. You are biased, I am not. It was a jump.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't using his arms there LD come on. Even if he didn't end up arse over it's still a foul.

Even in the still frame you can see his arms are out ready to wrap around. Unless I am looking at a different tackle with the same two players at a different point in the game. Lydiates arms are outstretched and ready to close around him, what stopped it happening was Woods feet in the air.

Thats why Lydiates' hands are virtually on the ground at impact?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't using his arms there LD come on. Even if he didn't end up arse over it's still a foul.

Even in the still frame you can see his arms are out ready to wrap around. Unless I am looking at a different tackle with the same two players at a different point in the game. Lydiates arms are outstretched and ready to close around him, what stopped it happening was Woods feet in the air.

Lydiates arms are out yes. and then he doesn't grasp or close his arms around. It's a pen all day long.

GunsGerms wrote:

Heaf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

Clip is pretty clear - where are all these people getting the idea he jumped into the tackle from?

Most people jump one leg at a time when running rather than both at the same time. It was a jump, whatever spin you want to put on it.

Chop tackles do not propel people in the air they make them hit the dirt.

that depends on momentum, where the centre of gravity is, location of hit etc etc ... the hit didn't 'propel him in the air' it made him swivel around his COG

Doesn't matter if it was a jump or not, it wasn't dangerous it's not a foul.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't matter if it was a jump or not, it wasn't dangerous it's not a foul.

Doesnt have to be dangerous to be a penalty though. You arent allowed jump tackles in rugby. To be honest if Lydiate was about to chop tackle me Id be tempted to jump it too. He is the best chop tackler in the world.

The bickering about the rules is pretty tiresome, especially when Marler was allowed to scrummage diagonally right under the nose of the referee for the entire first half. Referees make mistakes. it's nice to see a ref make decisions himself without constantly going upstairs.

Referee's make mistakes, however I don't see Lydiates tackle as a foul.

Really Guns? Which law, as I'm not aware of it and may have to retract quite a lot of comments. Hashtag egg on my face. Don't really do twitter.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

milkyboy wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

First glance it looked like an NFL style shoulder to knee type hit. Not good at all. Got to go with the Ref's view as he did check it out carefully

He definitely jumped the tackle in my opinion. Should have been penalised.

He definitely did not. Look at it very carefully. His upper body is almost horizontal his right leg is on the ground and Lydiate hits just above his right knee with his right shoulder. Lydiate's right arm is coming round but slowly. Given that Wood's center of gravity is in front of where he is hit he just flips right up.

He was propelling himself over Lydiate with his right foot. You are biased, I am not. It was a jump.

His foot was on the ground ... yes he was about to 'propel' himself from it when he was chopped but that's because he was running - you can't say he jumped into the tackle when he hadn't actually left the ground at that point and certainly hadn't committed a penalty offence - unlike Lydiate as it was a clear shoulder charge - although we'll have to agree to disagree on that and ultimately it won't change a thing now.

Gas how biased England fans are on this. I dont know you you can should charge some one who has jumped over you.

Seriously though Guns which law? If I'm being biased here it's because of lack of knowledge on this and I'll admit it.

If he had jumped maybe - but you keep ignoring the fact that Wood's foot was on the ground when he was hit - and that Lydiate's shoulder was the only contact made - I'm also not entirely convinced about your neutrality either

GunsGerms wrote:Gas how biased England fans are on this. I dont know you you can should charge some one who has jumped over you.

This is a silly and irrelevant argument in the big scheme of things, but tell me how do you hold your body if you are jumping? do you run with your body upright or horizontal?

According to the Daily Mail breaking news he has been cleared to play against Australia

Also let's play along and assume he was just about to jump - either way his foot was on the ground and whether he was in the act of jumping or taking another step his leg would have been in the same place when it was hit by Lydiate's shoulder. He didn't jump forwards somehow into Lydiate's shoulder as his foot hadn't left the ground at that point, so using that as an excuse for failing to attempt to wrap the arms doesn't cut it IMO.

I can't believe I have read pages and pages of rubbish about the silly incidents. Lydiate made a fair tackle, the player bounced in the air thats all.

Neither was Liam Williams kicked deliberatly in the head. There is nothing to say that you cant kick a ball on the floor or that you have to dive for it, such incidents occur in football fairly often between strikers and goal keepers. Both accidents in a very physical game.

The only bad thing I saw all game was Brown grabbing warburton from behind then around the throat to pull him backwards when it kicked off after the Lydiate tackle. Really this guy needs to be referred to as "the plank" from this point onwards.

Shifty wrote:Really this guy needs to be referred to as "the plank" from this point onwards.

Did you see his post match interview ? Comedy gold.

Seriously, it's a shame there are so many different camera's and the game is being dissected to death at the moment, because he really needs a forward to grab hold of him at the bottom of a ruck and clock him one to put his feet back on the ground. He is starting to become a bit of a big head.

Brown is like a Jack Russell. He'll take on anyone and anything - big, small, male, female or transgender. He don't care who it is. Street, innit.

SecretFly wrote:Brown is like a Jack Russell.  He'll take on anyone and anything - big, small, male, female or transgender.  He don't care who it is.  Street, innit.

I'd make him the Captain.

TightHEAD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Brown is like a Jack Russell.  He'll take on anyone and anything - big, small, male, female or transgender.  He don't care who it is.  Street, innit.

I'd make him the Captain.

He certainly draws a fair amount of heat. If you want that sort of heat from your captain then fair enough. To me he is a bit of a toss piece. I suppose that means he is doing something right. He does have a tendency to get involved in matters that don't concern him though.

TightHEAD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Brown is like a Jack Russell.  He'll take on anyone and anything - big, small, male, female or transgender.  He don't care who it is.  Street, innit.

I'd make him the Captain.

You wouldn't be too far wrong. Like I always say about him - he has the right attitude for combat.

But the imagery can get comical at times as Warburton casually walked him backwards so cool without a word, as Brown gave him a right good lecturing on who is Don King in this here match, mate, right!!!

show some people a smoking gun with the accused fingerprints on it, and they'll tell you it's not a gun and the accused doesn't have fingers. If wood jumped into that tackle, then the ball carrier has jumped into every tackle that's ever been made on a rugby pitch.

I wish a few more england players had a bit of brown's feistiness.... but then I wish they all had a bit more, pace, strength, handling ability etc too.

That Warburton moment was priceless - Brown is a great asset but beyond the bell curve he becomes a liability as it proved.

Anyway, this win has propelled Wales to the dizzy heights of 2nd best team in the world rankings:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/34379724

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, this win has propelled Wales to the dizzy heights of 2nd best team in the world rankings:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/34379724

Great news. Should be higher than second

We are the best in the world

killer938 wrote:According to the Daily Mail breaking news he has been cleared to play against Australia

Kind of makes a mockery of World Rugbys standards on player safety, if swinging a boot with players on the floor and doing damage isn't dangerous regardless of intent then what is?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seriously though Guns which law? If I'm being biased here it's because of lack of knowledge on this and I'll admit it.

Look it up yourself. Im not google.

marty - your making a mockery of yourself mate. Go back to watching football which is a non contact sport.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seriously though Guns which law? If I'm being biased here it's because of lack of knowledge on this and I'll admit it.

Look it up yourself. Im not google.

I have. It doesn't exist.

marty2086 wrote:

killer938 wrote:According to the Daily Mail breaking news he has been cleared to play against Australia

Kind of makes a mockery of World Rugbys standards on player safety, if swinging a boot with players on the floor and doing damage isn't dangerous regardless of intent then what is?

He has not been cited as it was deemed not a sending off offence. He has however been given an official warning - which equates to a retrospective yellow card.