England v Wales - Part 2, 26 September

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

M Brown (Harlequins); A Watson (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), S Burgess (Bath), J May (Gloucester); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), G Parling (Exeter), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), K Brookes (Northampton), J Launchbury (Wasps), J Haskell (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens).

WALES

Liam Williams (Scarlets); G North (Northampton), S Williams (Scarlets), J Roberts (Harlequins), H Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons); D Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), S Baldwin (Ospreys), T Francis (Exeter), B Davies (Wasps), A-W Jones (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

Replacements: K Owens (Scarlets), A Jarvis (Ospreys), S Lee (Scarlets), L Charteris (Racing 92), J Tipuric (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), R Priestland (Bath), A Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues).

Somebody asked : "Who is this Rattue moron?"

He's a NZ sports writer who called Wales "the village idiots of world rugby" a few years ago!

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2015-09-27/injuries-set-to-dampen-welsh-spirits-following-england-win/

Just found a link to the ITV Wales news article they ran...

On the news clip the incident is shown between 2:08 - 2:58 (ish)..

And looking again, online, so I can freeze frame each step.. The ball was closer than I thought when watching the news earlier today.. So I retract my "thuggery" claim.

I'm now unsure and think if cited he may miss a game (maybe 2) but no more.

I still think it was clumsy and dangerous, but not so sure it was deliberate...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No9 wrote:Well I don't know what you have watched.

Yes, Williams dives for the ball, but at the time Wood runs in and kicks the ball is well away from the bodies on the ground.

I agree it looks worse in slow-mo, but at real time, the ball can easily be seen to be 2-3 metres away from Liam at the time Wood kicked out.

If his reactions to kicking a ball is that b!oody slow, there is no way he should be playing international rugby.

I appreciate how sensitive this is, especially as most English fans will be looking for comfort, but guys, we don't need to see "thuggery" like this in rugby, and especially when its the world stage. And that goes for any player, any nation.

No comfort to be had from this just don't think there s much in it.

2-3 metres away? Are you on the wind up? The link is in the thread, freeze frame it. His leg is in motion at the time the ball gets deflected by either Williams hand or the covering Welsh players heel... Hard to tell. He misses the ball by inches. Let's say the angle foreshortens it. Maybe it's a foot or two. Unless there's another angle to show something different you can't call it deliberate based on that.

No consolation for Williams, it was a nasty hit. If they decide it was reckless to swing the boot with a player on the ground in close vicinity then that's one thing, but he swung and missed at a deflected ball.

To me, it looks like bad luck and nothing more.
Wood has a good disciplinary record, so I would presume no poor intent. It would certainly seem out of character.

Ah posts crossed, seen your retraction. Certainly clumsy, arguably reckless, but he had everything to gain from kicking the ball in a dangerous attacking situation for England and only a citing to gain for kicking Williams in the head.

Just rewatching the game. How did none of the officials notice Marler turning in at every scrum? The only reason England had anything like upper hand.

I come here to discuss RUGBY of which my knowledge is VAST,NOT to be criticised about
my ENGLISH LANGUAGE LIKE A SCHOOLBOY.HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE I AM
PC DYSLEXIC

mckay1402 wrote:Just rewatching the game.  How did none of the officials notice Marler turning in at every scrum?   The only reason England had anything like upper hand.  

.....The same way none of them are noticing extremely crooked feeds. Some of these rules must have a big X through them for the special occasion. I'm also noticing wayward lineout throws being allowed pass as pin-point accurate ones.

It seems that in order to tighten up on some rules they also have to loosen the belt on others, as refs can only handle so much info before self-exploding.

mckay1402 wrote:Just rewatching the game.  How did none of the officials notice Marler turning in at every scrum?   The only reason England had anything like upper hand.  

Well I said this about another game which took place at Twickenham in 2014 and it got brushed aside. As I've previously stated, the ones who delight in singling out Gethin Jenkins for his scrummaging seem to have lost their Wi-Fi connection .

emack2 wrote:I come here to discuss RUGBY of which my knowledge is VAST,NOT to be criticised about
my ENGLISH LANGUAGE LIKE A SCHOOLBOY.HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE I AM
PC DYSLEXIC

You've got PC anger issues there, emack!

I don't think 7&1/2 knew. I'm sure he'll feel he was hasty with the cane.

Already mentioned that to be honest don`t think many refs are hip to Front row Mafia tactics.
Squint feeds are almost totally ignored,wonder how many Hookers can actually perform
THEIR Primary function.I.E HOOK the ball

emack2 wrote:I come here to discuss RUGBY of which my knowledge is VAST,NOT to be criticised about
my ENGLISH LANGUAGE LIKE A SCHOOLBOY.HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE I AM
PC DYSLEXIC

theres no such thing.learn.

emack2 wrote:I come here to discuss RUGBY of which my knowledge is VAST,NOT to be criticised about
my ENGLISH LANGUAGE LIKE A SCHOOLBOY.HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE I AM
PC DYSLEXIC

You NEED to calm DOWN a bit as putting WORDS into capital LETTERS here and THERE does not make your ARGUMENT any more VALID like

Garces had a terrible game

milkyboy wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No9 wrote:Well I don't know what you have watched.

Yes, Williams dives for the ball, but at the time Wood runs in and kicks the ball is well away from the bodies on the ground.

I agree it looks worse in slow-mo, but at real time, the ball can easily be seen to be 2-3 metres away from Liam at the time Wood kicked out.

If his reactions to kicking a ball is that b!oody slow, there is no way he should be playing international rugby.

I appreciate how sensitive this is, especially as most English fans will be looking for comfort, but guys, we don't need to see "thuggery" like this in rugby, and especially when its the world stage. And that goes for any player, any nation.

No comfort to be had from this just don't think there s much in it.

2-3 metres away? Are you on the wind up? The link is in the thread, freeze frame it. His leg is in motion at the time the ball gets deflected by either Williams hand or the covering Welsh players heel... Hard to tell. He misses the ball by inches. Let's say the angle foreshortens it. Maybe it's a foot or two. Unless there's another angle to show something different you can't call it deliberate based on that.

No consolation for Williams, it was a nasty hit. If they decide it was reckless to swing the boot with a player on the ground in close vicinity then that's one thing, but he swung and missed at a deflected ball.

In actual time it's an accident to me.

Wood incident: if you decide even an instant beforehand to kick a player in the head, you surely don't to use your shin. Why did he miss the ball? Forwards aren't noted for their deft kicking of the ball and, hey, anyone notice the ball isn't actually round and bounces at funny angles? Conclusion: a horrible accident in the heat of a hypercharged game. Clumsy but not violent, ie neither premeditated nor deliberate
Lydiate incident: instinctive, Wood already airborne, didn't have the time to get second arm round the player. Looked bad in real time, worse in slo-mo - like the Wood incident. Conclusion - officials d, alasead right to review it, and dead right on review not to penalise any further.

Well done Wales for a performance of immense courage that deserved a win. I reckon, however, that neither side - even before injuries - looked anything like they could reach the business end of the competition. Wales won't play with that intensity again because no-one else is England, and other (ie SH) sides will be more clinical than England. For England, if you compare this team/squad to 2003, it's hard to make a cast iron case for many of today's crop: maybe Brown in at f/b with Lewsey to wing and Cohen out; maybe Launchbury in for Kay (not least as his skill set would complement Johnson's). Beyond that, forget it. Little wonder that 2015 does not look like an historic RWC year for us English.

SimonofSurrey wrote:Conclusion - officials dead right to review it, and dead right on their conclusion not to penalise any further.

They haven't review it yet have they? Normally it takes a few days for citings to be sorted out.

I don't think it was deliberate, but it is clearly reckless use of the boot and should result in a several game ban imo.

Oh but there is,I hold English languge,and LiteratureCertificates at GCE O Level and CSE.
What is fine on paper isn`t for me on a PC of which my skills are minimal and at 72 unlikely
to be bothered now.
I have stated it time and time again,SO if you don`t like my prose style DON`T read my
comments.
That`s fine with me I know what I mean and try to convey it as best I can.
Many here have learn`t something about the subject from me maybe you could
too.Either way is fine with me go read someone elses comments instead.

mikey_dragon wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:Just rewatching the game.  How did none of the officials notice Marler turning in at every scrum?   The only reason England had anything like upper hand.  

Well I said this about another game which took place at Twickenham in 2014 and it got brushed aside. As I've previously stated, the ones who delight in singling out Gethin Jenkins for his scrummaging seem to have lost their Wi-Fi connection .

Joe marler has always said he learnt a lot from Adam Jones in  that famous/infamous (depending on your perspective) day in Cardiff 2013. Good to see him practising it.

With Steve Walsh reffing you'd have won by 30 points yesterday as well 

emack2 wrote:Oh but there is,I hold English languge,and LiteratureCertificates at GCE O Level and CSE.
What is fine on paper isn`t for me on a PC of which my skills are minimal and at 72 unlikely
to be bothered now.
I have stated it time and time again,SO if you don`t like my prose style DON`T read my
comments.
That`s fine with me I know what I mean and try to convey it as best I can.
Many here have learn`t something about the subject from me maybe you could
too.Either way is fine with me go read someone elses comments instead.

Ah that's fine my computer skills aren't great either but there really is no such thing as pc dyslexia. Your use of their etc needs practice that's all. I dislike many things but it won't stop me reading or replying.

Keyboard dyslexia is a real thing, in his defence. I'm not sure it usually manifests itself like that, but it's real.

wales606 wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:Conclusion - officials dead right to review it, and dead right on their conclusion not to penalise any further.

They haven't review it yet have they? Normally it takes a few days for citings to be sorted out.

I don't think it was deliberate, but it is clearly reckless use of the boot and should result in a several game ban imo.

The bit of my post you quote was my conclusion on the Lydiate incident, ie I think the match day officials were dead right to have another look at it, then dead right again to conclude there was nothing warranting any further sanction. The Wood incident is still under review and I see both sides of the argument: I think most reasonably minded people would come to the conclusion that it somewhere in the 'not deliberate but definitely clumsy and ultimately dangerous' spectrum.

Ah my bad

Yes, Keyboard dyslexia is real. I suffer from it - especially when I type in the dark (quite common) or when I'm thinking quicker than I can type (super fast brain or extremely slow typing ) I go for super-fast brain because my ego likes the ring of it.

No9 wrote:Well I don't know what you have watched.

Yes, Williams dives for the ball, but at the time Wood runs in and kicks the ball is well away from the bodies on the ground.

I agree it looks worse in slow-mo, but at real time, the ball can easily be seen to be 2-3 metres away from Liam at the time Wood kicked out.

If his reactions to kicking a ball is that b!oody slow, there is no way he should be playing international rugby.

I appreciate how sensitive this is, especially as most English fans will be looking for comfort, but guys, we don't need to see "thuggery" like this in rugby, and especially when its the world stage. And that goes for any player, any nation.

So you are accusing Wood of deliberately kicking Williams in the head?

Wood was obviously going for the ball. I think he may even have got a thin contact on it, so I'm no sure where this 2 or 3 metres thing comes from. He has to take responsibility for the fact he did end up kicking Williams in the head, but it was an accident and some people seem to be making Wood out to be this huge bad guy when he simply isn't.

Ah, I see you retracted.

milkyboy wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:Just rewatching the game.  How did none of the officials notice Marler turning in at every scrum?   The only reason England had anything like upper hand.  

Well I said this about another game which took place at Twickenham in 2014 and it got brushed aside. As I've previously stated, the ones who delight in singling out Gethin Jenkins for his scrummaging seem to have lost their Wi-Fi connection .

Joe marler has always said he learnt a lot from Adam Jones in  that famous/infamous (depending on your perspective) day in Cardiff 2013. Good to see him practising it.

With Steve Walsh reffing you'd have won by 30 points yesterday as well 

Sounds like Marler learnt from the best.

I wish Steve Walsh was still reffing, always rated him highly. And we're both part of #TeamHandsome .

wales606 wrote:Ah my bad

No worries, probably my fault initially for not being clearer. Lydiate incident - done and dusted, let's all move on. Wood - oafish clumsy boy action, not thuggery, but fact remains his actions injured another player - jury still out (literally).

SOS - The voice of reason as usual - Top Poster in amongst the emotional cauldron and agony of defeat and the euphoria of victory.

Well done Wales - showed some real balls in the last 10 minutes with a patched up backline to win that.

I believe Australia will beat Wales (sorry guys) but Wales are capable of getting maximum points against Fiji.

England could beat Australia, but wouldn't bet on it on that performance. They are hanging by thread now and big mistake not taking the draw.

I think they were mad not to go for the draw but that kick was not an easy one. I like the fact that they showed belief they could win it from there and positivity, just a shame the team selection wasn't on the same wave length.

Would they have won/done any better had Ford played?

Farrell played pretty well... Ford would not have got 7/7. The only other decision would have been to play Barritt and Slade together... and Barritt had another mare of a game, again.

For me he's the most likely to get dropped.

England lost mainly because their forwards couldn't not infringe (maybe it was pressure but ill disicipline was rife). Lawes gave away 3 pens in first 10 mins (2 of which were kicked, the other gave Wales possession in England's half which I think led to a penalty).

Surprised Lancaster made those substitutions as well - with 1 score  in it it was hardly job done even if Wales had lost half their back line.

There seemed to be a belief they had already one the game - why bring on Ford and take off Burgess when you are defending a lead?

Someone elsewhere too said that if England were going for the win they need to be brave and throw to the tail, rather than to Robshaw at the front and allow Wales to easily defend the maul.

If you are going for the win then you need to really go for it - England turned down the kick and then played safety first at the lineout - amazingly bad leadership from Robshaw and the senior players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

In actual time it's an accident to me.

Id say so too.

rodders wrote:Surprised Lancaster made those substitutions as well - with 1 score  in it it was hardly job done even if Wales had lost half their back line.

There seemed to be a belief they had already one the game - why bring on Ford and take off Burgess when you are defending a lead?

Someone elsewhere too said that if England were going for the win they need to be brave and throw to the tail, rather than to Robshaw at the front and allow Wales to easily defend the maul.

If you are going for the win then you need to really go for it - England turned down the kick and then played safety first at the lineout - amazingly bad leadership from Robshaw and the senior players.

Reminded me of Johnson in the 3rd lions test in 2001.

SCW said that come the 03 final when they had a last min lineout they would go to the tail... and it set up the winning drop goal.

Yes it was an accident, but it was STILL dangerous, needs looking at, and it needs removing from the game. If a player is on the floor, you CANNOT swing your foot aimlessly to kick the ball or you could end up killing someone.

Ford may have made all the same kicks but I don't think either would have much joy with that midfield. Completely agree with the Barritt comment, he's there purely for defence, he's not even making the carries he used to make when first coming into the team and he's made some bad individual mistakes in the last 2.

Think we were on the end of a couple of calls which could have gone either way and generally I thought the forwards were on top, but there was no cutting edge to take full advantage.

The choice of lineout doesn't matter if you execute it better.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes it was an accident, but it was STILL dangerous, needs looking at, and it needs removing from the game. If a player is on the floor, you CANNOT swing your foot aimlessly to kick the ball or you could end up killing someone.

Not aimlessly, the aim was to clear the ball.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes it was an accident, but it was STILL dangerous, needs looking at, and it needs removing from the game. If a player is on the floor, you CANNOT swing your foot aimlessly to kick the ball or you could end up killing someone.

Not aimlessly, the aim was to clear the ball.

He swung his leg aimlessly and clearly kicked Liam's head not the ball.

Do you think that what happened should not be taken out of our game ?

LordDowlais wrote:Yes it was an accident, but it was STILL dangerous, needs looking at, and it needs removing from the game. If a player is on the floor, you CANNOT swing your foot aimlessly to kick the ball or you could end up killing someone.

Yes agreed. It is ok to cite things like this so at the very least Wood or whoever it was could explain himself.

It reminds me of when POC took the head off Dave Kearney and wasnt cited at all.

http://www.joe.ie/sport/video-heres-paul-oconnell-kicking-dave-kearney-in-the-head/47387

I do think both were probably accidents though.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes it was an accident, but it was STILL dangerous, needs looking at, and it needs removing from the game. If a player is on the floor, you CANNOT swing your foot aimlessly to kick the ball or you could end up killing someone.

Thats true LD. If I'm being honest I'd say a 1-2 week ban would be in order. Didn't notice at the time, only on video reply post game.

However.... I also think Lydiates was very dangerous. He stuck his arm out yes but there was no wrap around and Wood went legs over head.  It was in effect a misguided shoulder charge but so low down that it upended Wood. Could have landed very badly and for me thats why I think a yellow was warranted (although to his credit, Garces looked at it a lot).

Both were very quick incidents, both were not meant to cause injury. Both were dangerous. Woods was probably more dangerous hence why I think he should get a ban albeit small, but Lydiate was rather fortuitous.

I'm happy with them bringing something in but your choice of language seems inflamatory to me. It wasn't aimless. The aim was clearly to kick the ball. A careless kick would be more apt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:A careless kick would be more apt.

OK I will go with that then. But if somebodies head is in the vicinity of the ball, the player should show due diligence and be more careful.

Fair enough point.

fa0019 wrote:However.... I also think Lydiates was very dangerous. He stuck his arm out yes but there was no wrap around and Wood went legs over head.  It was in effect a misguided shoulder charge but so low down that it upended Wood. Could have landed very badly and for me thats why I think a yellow was warranted (although to his credit, Garces looked at it a lot).

For me the two incidents are not even comparable. I do not know what the coaches are teaching the England players, but they need to STOP jumping into people when they have the ball in hand. I saw it a few times in the Fiji game.

Lydiate could not wrap his arm around because it had hit Woods leg whilst he was hurtling himself towards him. His arm hit Wood first, not his shoulder. If Woods was not jumping in the first place, he would not have done the double somersault and pike twist when he got tackled.

It should have been a pen to England though all the same.

Lydiates tackle could easily gone against him with a none experienced ref in charge.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:However.... I also think Lydiates was very dangerous. He stuck his arm out yes but there was no wrap around and Wood went legs over head.  It was in effect a misguided shoulder charge but so low down that it upended Wood. Could have landed very badly and for me thats why I think a yellow was warranted (although to his credit, Garces looked at it a lot).

For me the two incidents are not even comparable. I do not know what the coaches are teaching the England players, but they need to STOP jumping into people when they have the ball in hand. I saw it a few times in the Fiji game.

Lydiate could not wrap his arm around because it had hit Woods leg whilst he was hurtling himself towards him. His arm hit Wood first, not his shoulder. If Woods was not jumping in the first place, he would not have done the double somersault and pike twist when he got tackled.

LD

I did say that Wood's was more dangerous. The comparison is that both seems to be accidental. However both were fortunate not to get pens and cards.

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-dan-lydiate-almost-chops-tom-wood-in-half-with-devastating-tackle/41555

jumping into the tackle? Wood's leg is on the ground when lydiate's shoulder hits him, and lydiate's arms are well behind his shoulder. The last clip is the clearest... I think he was saved because he looked like he was just in the motion of bringing his arms round... but they were well behind his shoulder. That's what saved him in the ref's eyes, but he was  a lucky boy in my view.

Funny a few of us thought it would either be a dominant England performance or a very tight nervy affair. I didn't expect both to be true. England were so far ahead in the first half it wasn't true. But then Wales showed huge balls and stuck in there.

Then they controlled the ball so well in the 2nd half - excellent kicking game - and all the structure fell away from England's game. I half wondered if seeing all the Welsh injuries actually disrupted England also. (And subbing Burgess for Ford was a mistake)

Anyway the most important thing to do is say well done to Wales. Still a lot to play for but both teams still have a hell of a lot of work to do to get out of the group but its easier for Wales now, assuming that they will be able to get a team on the pitch.

It hurts. Victory over Australia will cure the pain, but that will be another brutal contest.