Ireland v Italy, 4 October

by **George Carlin** Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Ireland v Italy, 4 October - Page 5 Irelan12

IRELAND V ITALY
4 October 2015
KO: 16:45
Olympic Stadium, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gaüzère (France) & Angus Gardner (Australia)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

24 Played 24
20 Won 4
0 Drawn 0
4 Lost 20
772 Points 382

B. Recent Form

7 February 2015
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
3 – 26 to Ireland

8 March 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 7 to Ireland

16 March 2013
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
22 – 15 to Italy

25 February 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
42 – 10 to Ireland

2 October 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
36 – 6 to Ireland

C. Teams

IRELAND
Ireland v Italy, 4 October - Page 5 Mrs_do10

Ireland v Italy, 4 October - Page 5 Mrs_do10

15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)

1. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster) captain
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

Replacements

16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)

ITALY
Ireland v Italy, 4 October - Page 5 Alessa10

Ireland v Italy, 4 October - Page 5 Alessa10

Luke McLean; Leonardo Sarto, Michele Capagnaro, Gonzalo Garcia, Giovanbattista Venditti; Tommaso Allan, Edoardo Gori; Matias Aguero, Andrea Manici, Lorenzo Cittadini; Quintin Geldenhuys, Josh Furno; Francesco Minton, Simone Favaro, Sergio Parisse (capt).

Replacements: Davide Giazzon, Michele Rizzo, Dario Chistolini, Alessandro Zanni, Mauro Bergamasco, Guglielmo Palazzani, Carlo Canna, Tommaso Benvenuti.

by mikey_dragon Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:55 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ireland will not beat France playing like that, this I can assure you.

Thanks for that, every one on this forum rates your opinion so highly that this is really quite a profound statement.

Thanks, it's about time I got some recognition for all my insightful knowledge I post on here. Cheers it means a lot to me Dodge.

The last tier 1 opposition Ireland faced was England, and they lost. England just got booted out of the world cup. Think about it...

Actually the last tier 1 nation we beat was Italy less than half an hour ago.

They're outside the top 10 - I'm sure you get the jist of it.

You didn't say top 10 you said tier 1. Your reasoning is about as accurate as saying if Wales lose to Australia, given that Australia are top 10, then it follows suit that 'think about it...' Wales are on their way out.

So when was the last time you beat a top 10 team? And sorry your other statement just doesn't make sense to me?

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:03 pm

westisbest wrote:Wasn't the best performance, but we got the win.

Need to step it up a couple of gears against what ever French side turns up.

Like Earls at 13.

by westisbest Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:07 pm

Munchkin wrote:
westisbest wrote:Wasn't the best performance, but we got the win.

Need to step it up a couple of gears against what ever French side turns up.

Like Earls at 13.

Ha, I prefer him to Payne.

Earls is good on the wing, but I prefer Zebo And Bowe.

But hey I don't pick the side.

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:20 pm

I think there's no need to be too worried. Obviously we played a below-par game. But I can't see Ireland's performance today having any real relationship with their performance next week (or any of the big-game matches yet to come). Ireland won't perform like that against France, New Zealand or Argentina. From the word go Ireland just looked off the pace... they looked like they had other things on their mind (which is quite amazing given that they were within 5 points of messing up their entire championship). I even thought the commentators were more calm than should have been expected. When the pressure was on Ireland for some reason looked neither too panicked (not in a good way though) nor willing to collectively change what they were doing.

The only explanation I can see is a mixture of over-confidence in their original gameplan and poor on-the-pitch tactics. Italy were swarming the gain-line and Ireland just kept battering into it with pre-set attacks that were going nowehere. I felt they should have been kicking over and behind them much earlier and forcing them to turn around and run the hard yards. Italy would have found it much harder going to string long phases together from set pieces around their own 22. Ireland seemed to think Italy just weren't going to be able to live with them physically and skill-wise and then refused to change their tactics when that proved completely wrong.

But in the end they've seen the match through. And I think, next week, 1) Ireland will be as intense around the gain-line as Italy were today and 2) Ireland won't be expecting to simply blast and skill their way through Framce with several tries - and that will make them keep things tighter and more controlled. That will make it a totally different game... everything from the offloads to the competitions/turnovers at rucks will be completely transformed from what we saw today. It doesn't mean we will automatically play like world-beaters and we may not even win... but it will be a completely different game.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:25 pm

The question is were we really bad or did Jacques know how to counter Irelands game plan...not sure I know the answer to that. Never felt we would lose the game to be honest but it was underwhelming.

In terms of MOTM not sure how Henderson got it as besides two choke tackles he didnt do much (along with everybody else). Italian No.7 (Favaro?) was outstanding. Actually buried Henderson in a couple of tackles and was all over the park.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:25 pm

Not a Panic button. The one over from it there on the panel - The Pi-ss-ed Off Button Wink

It's a complacency that shouldn't have been there. It's either complacency or we're in serious trouble. Both are equally unwanted.

There should have been methods for a supposed 4th ranked team to push off the pressure exerted on it by a team ranked lower than Tonga (who were destroyed by Argentina today).
Call a spade a spade, there is no way Italy should have caused so much hassle and virtually bullied the whole game - the tempo, places where it was played etc, etc. Ireland should have the skills to push Italy off them, create a genuine gap for themselves on the scoreboard, and then relax if they wanted to and engage in game that Italy wanted from there on. Ireland looked clueless in sourcing methods to create that bigger gap.

There just seems to always be this innate resistance in Ireland to keep going, keep a rhythm, sustain ruthlessness through a full series of games. Even in the 6N, we turn off in certain games to supposedly 'pace ourselves' . Are we so behind in modern conditioning methods that we can't seriously drive home through four or five games in sequence?

Today has only strengthened my continuing fear that we're off the pace condition-wise to confront the better sides in this competition. And, if that is so, then that's unforgiveable by our coaching staff to bring a squad not fully ready to play at the highest tempo or to the physical levels required. This isn't Pro12, it isn't HEC - it's the World Cup.

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:29 pm

westisbest wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
westisbest wrote:Wasn't the best performance, but we got the win.

Need to step it up a couple of gears against what ever French side turns up.

Like Earls at 13.

Ha, I prefer him to Payne.

Earls is good on the wing, but I prefer Zebo And Bowe.

But hey I don't pick the side.

Yes, thought you might prefer Earls over Payne. Honestly can't understand that thinking, but each to their own Very Happy

Earls showed a few glimpses of his attacking ability today, what you would expect from a good winger, but nothing else. Not for a 13. I think he had a poor game. Great wing option. Poor 13.

At this point in time I would have Earls over both Zebo and Bowe on the wing, although Bowe is cooking nicely, and I would have Bowe over Zebo.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:39 pm

Bowe?

Sorry...but it's now confirmed, I'd dread Bowe in bigger games. Did he catch just the one ball? Two? Not many more. Most times he was back to that damn tapping the ball back. Highly dangerous stuff against better sides, and the Italians were on to it and had men there themselves to pick up his tap backs. Catch! Go to ground. Recycle. The taps aren't working.

No. I can't see the positivity about Bowe. He's had his attempt to prove his form has returned. I couldn't see it in that game. He's highly erratic and as liable to make a costly error as do some magic and score a lovely try.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:46 pm

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/ireland-player-ratings-iain-henderson-immense-in-the-second-row-against-the-italians-31581403.html

Not sure what game this guy was watching..

by Artful_Dodger Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:50 pm

ME-109 wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/ireland-player-ratings-iain-henderson-immense-in-the-second-row-against-the-italians-31581403.html

Not sure what game this guy was watching..

Not sure what game you were watching if you don't think Henderson was our best forward.

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:50 pm

SecretFly wrote:Bowe?

Sorry...but it's now confirmed, I'd dread Bowe in bigger games. Did he catch just the one ball? Two? Not many more. Most times he was back to that damn tapping the ball back. Highly dangerous stuff against better sides, and the Italians were on to it and had men there themselves to pick up his tap backs. Catch! Go to ground. Recycle. The taps aren't working.

No. I can't see the positivity about Bowe. He's had his attempt to prove his form has returned. I couldn't see it in that game. He's highly erratic and as liable to make a costly error as do some magic and score a lovely try.

Highly erratic? No he isn't. Not that he is completely predictable, but he's certainly not highly erratic. Zebo would be a player better described as erratic. Agree on the high balls. The tapping back is something I noticed at Ulster. Not great, and I think it comes from a lack of confidence, which is poor in itself. I think Bowe has certainly been improving, although I would say he is there just yet. Getting better. I would have him over Zebo because I trust him more, regardless of your claims of being highly erratic. The one big advantage Zebo has over Bowe is his speed. Something that really stood out for me in todays game, and that makes it difficult to know which is the better option. So much so that I wouldn't question Zebo being picked ahead of Bowe.

by kunu Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:51 pm

SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

by The Great Aukster Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:52 pm

Ireland never looked worried yet they should have been. It was frankly ridiculous that POC went for the corner in the first half rather than take the points (as it was for Parisse earlier) - incredible (and smacking of arrogance). Italy kept looking for the scrum penalty and Garces kept saying 'use it' which they didn't because they thought they would get the scrum penalty which they didn't - bizarre.

I thought the backs missed Payne massively. BOD pointed out how the defence were standing too deep and conceded easy territory to Italy. Earls tried to get some impossible offloads away and just succeeded in giving away possession - maybe he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but he is on a different wavelength. Earls is a winger full stop.

Don't know who was MOTM but most of the Ireland players had mixed performances.

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:53 pm

ME-109 wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/ireland-player-ratings-iain-henderson-immense-in-the-second-row-against-the-italians-31581403.html

Not sure what game this guy was watching..

Second journo I have read that rates Henderson above the rest today. Completely agree with them both. He was the stand out player in a poor performance. Best was a close second to him.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:54 pm

He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:59 pm

ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

I am not anti POM! I am a big fan of the guy, and although I don't think he is yet at his best, I do think he had a better performance than the rest, bar Henderson and Best (ok maybe equal to Best) Another way to look at it is I think Henderson, POM and Best were the best of a poor bunch today.

I also completely agree with everything you wrote.......other than the POM comment, obviously mad

by kunu Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:00 pm

Henderson was easily Ireland's best player - and you rarely award MOM to a team who lose by 7. Even if the award wasn't decided by popular vote I think he would have got it. He showed incredible strength throughout, made a Fez-on-Genia type hit and one point and nearly single handedly stood up Parisee with a choke. You could see as he was subbed he was absolutely shattered.

by VinceWLB Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:03 pm

kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

by scrummy Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:03 pm

Awful game today. I think it was a motivation problem and I believe we'll play a lot better against France. Worrying performance by our half-backs and I think we're all agreed that constantly kicking away possession might not be the best way to go. One of the few good things to come out of today's game is that after seeing our disjointed backline the Payne debate has been firmly put to bed.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:03 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

I am not anti POM! I am a big fan of the guy, and although I don't think he is yet at his best, I do think he had a better performance than the rest, bar Henderson and Best (ok maybe equal to Best) Another way to look at it is I think Henderson, POM and Best were the best of a poor bunch today.

I also completely agree with everything you wrote.......other than the POM comment, obviously

Wasnt directed at you...sorry. But to my mind the whole shooting lot were poor today....seemed to lack direction and intensity..

by Artful_Dodger Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:04 pm

ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

We need a backrow which is more balanced. The options are drop O'Mahony and play Henry at 7 with O'Brien at 6. Or drop O'Brien with Henry at 7 and O'Mahony at 6. Personally, I think O'Brien is being crippled at 7 and we would get the best out of him as an out and out blindside at 6.

I think we need to look at a destructive 6 in O'Brien and a groundhog at 7 in Henry. O'Mahony is for me what is making our backrow unbalanced.

As for Henderson being 'ok' and your only reasoning for that being that the Italian openside had a good game.....very strange. If it wasn't for Henderson's contribution we could have lost that game today.

by VinceWLB Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:07 pm

The only reason SOB was shifted to 7 then was to accommodate Ferris at 6. Now can anyone with a straight face tell me POM is in the same league as Ferris?

by kunu Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:08 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:12 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

We need a backrow which is more balanced. The options are drop O'Mahony and play Henry at 7 with O'Brien at 6. Or drop O'Brien with Henry at 7 and O'Mahony at 6. Personally, I think O'Brien is being crippled at 7 and we would get the best out of him as an out and out blindside at 6.

I think we need to look at a destructive 6 in O'Brien and a groundhog at 7 in Henry. O'Mahony is for me what is making our backrow unbalanced.

As for Henderson being 'ok' and your only reasoning for that being that the Italian openside had a good game.....very strange. If it wasn't for Henderson's contribution we could have lost that game today.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but as others have mentioned POM is our most important player at the breakdown and his overall contribution is very effective. Your analysis is not valid in my opinion because SOB has been playing as a 7 for Leinster and Ireland since whenever and that isnt going to change. Plus I dont think Henry is as effective as either POM or SOB. Although SOB was particularly poor today.

As for Henderson he was ok today (OK being the best I could say about any player - and as indicated Best along with POM were my picks). Anyhow his most telling contribution was two choke tackles which were very good (but then DOC should have had a handful of MOTM awards for just that in the past). Other than that he didnt do a whole lot else. As for Favaro my opinion is that he was the most deserving of MOTM...nothing too mad in that I think.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:12 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Highly erratic? No he isn't. Not that he is completely predictable, but he's certainly not highly erratic. Zebo would be a player better described as erratic. Agree on the high balls. The tapping back is something I noticed at Ulster. Not great, and I think it comes from a lack of confidence, which is poor in itself. I think Bowe has certainly been improving, although I would say he is there just yet. Getting better. I would have him over Zebo because I trust him more, regardless of your claims of being highly erratic. The one big advantage Zebo has over Bowe is his speed. Something that really stood out for me in todays game, and that makes it difficult to know which is the better option. So much so that I wouldn't question Zebo being picked ahead of Bowe.

Munch, I've had my fun with Zebo in the early days of Schmidt's reign. I've never had too much worries about him to be honest, but yes, I do think Schmidt was right in saying he needed to become more interested in the dog work as much as the slick attack stuff.
And I'm impressed by him now. He's bedded down, he's matured. He still likes the smiling rugby high jinx stuff if it's on, but I trust him and don't have an issue with him at all. Incidently, me speaking about conditioning earlier, I think he's the fittest player in the Irish squad. He always looks fresh and full of energy even to the last 80.

On Bowe, I have to be honest - and I did say he was good against Romania and deserved another crack at it. But for the life of me, I cannot fathom how so many commentators say he's a wing in the right form to be 'nailed on' to this Irish team that wants to progress to the semis at least. I honestly can't.
I see a player rushing around full of anxiety, over extending, over-trying, trying to impress, trying to over-reach when he knows catches are not on. He'd be better off sometimes just letting the opposition player receive the ball and then hit him. But he always goes for those aerials and I'm telling you, and I'm telling everyone, if he keeps it up, he'll be crucified (and we'll be crucified) by better players in up and coming better sides.

He can score tries, he can be hard in defence but for me he's become another Fitz, hyperactive and dangerous. Too eager to please and unwilling to temper it.

by VinceWLB Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:14 pm

kunu wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

SOB is asked to be a pain at the breakdown but he is also asked to do the ball carrying as the 6 is not able to do it. Can't have it all, McCaws Hoopers aren't being asked to do the ball carrying.

by The Great Aukster Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:14 pm

ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

POM had his best game of the RWC so far, but the shoulder charge at the ruck was a poor yellow to concede with the game still in the balance. That was just as crucial as his try saving tackle. He made a couple of telling contributions at the lineout but also gave away an obvious penalty for holding Furno in the air. It was the story of Ireland in the match - some really good stuff but tainted with some awful stuff as well.

by Artful_Dodger Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:15 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

We need a backrow which is more balanced. The options are drop O'Mahony and play Henry at 7 with O'Brien at 6. Or drop O'Brien with Henry at 7 and O'Mahony at 6. Personally, I think O'Brien is being crippled at 7 and we would get the best out of him as an out and out blindside at 6.

I think we need to look at a destructive 6 in O'Brien and a groundhog at 7 in Henry. O'Mahony is for me what is making our backrow unbalanced.

As for Henderson being 'ok' and your only reasoning for that being that the Italian openside had a good game.....very strange. If it wasn't for Henderson's contribution we could have lost that game today.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but as others have mentioned POM is our most important player at the breakdown and his overall contribution is very effective. Your analysis is not valid in my opinion because SOB has been playing as a 7 for Leinster and Ireland since whenever and that isnt going to change. Plus I dont think Henry is as effective as either POM or SOB. Although SOB was particularly poor today.

As for Henderson he was ok today (OK being the best I could say about any player - and as indicated Best along with POM were my picks). Anyhow his most telling contribution was two choke tackles which were very good (but then DOC should have had a handful of MOTM awards for just that in the past). Other than that he didnt do a whole lot else. As for Favaro my opinion is that he was the most deserving of MOTM...nothing too mad in that I think.

If you don't think Chris Henry is as effective at the breakdown as SOB or POM, then you know nothing about Chris Henry.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:15 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

SOB is asked to be a pain at the breakdown but he is also asked to do the ball carrying as the 6 is not able to do it. Can't have it all, McCaws Hoopers aren't being asked to do the ball carrying.

Well you are completely incorrect there as POM (along with Best) was our best ball carrier. No need to apologise.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:16 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

We need a backrow which is more balanced. The options are drop O'Mahony and play Henry at 7 with O'Brien at 6. Or drop O'Brien with Henry at 7 and O'Mahony at 6. Personally, I think O'Brien is being crippled at 7 and we would get the best out of him as an out and out blindside at 6.

I think we need to look at a destructive 6 in O'Brien and a groundhog at 7 in Henry. O'Mahony is for me what is making our backrow unbalanced.

As for Henderson being 'ok' and your only reasoning for that being that the Italian openside had a good game.....very strange. If it wasn't for Henderson's contribution we could have lost that game today.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but as others have mentioned POM is our most important player at the breakdown and his overall contribution is very effective. Your analysis is not valid in my opinion because SOB has been playing as a 7 for Leinster and Ireland since whenever and that isnt going to change. Plus I dont think Henry is as effective as either POM or SOB. Although SOB was particularly poor today.

As for Henderson he was ok today (OK being the best I could say about any player - and as indicated Best along with POM were my picks). Anyhow his most telling contribution was two choke tackles which were very good (but then DOC should have had a handful of MOTM awards for just that in the past). Other than that he didnt do a whole lot else. As for Favaro my opinion is that he was the most deserving of MOTM...nothing too mad in that I think.

If you don't think Chris Henry is as effective at the breakdown as SOB or POM, then you know nothing about Chris Henry.

Good club player and good back up.

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:18 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

I am not anti POM! I am a big fan of the guy, and although I don't think he is yet at his best, I do think he had a better performance than the rest, bar Henderson and Best (ok maybe equal to Best) Another way to look at it is I think Henderson, POM and Best were the best of a poor bunch today.

I also completely agree with everything you wrote.......other than the POM comment, obviously

Wasnt directed at you...sorry. But to my mind the whole shooting lot were poor today....seemed to lack direction and intensity..

They lacked intensity, no question, although I'm not sure how much that has been Schmidts doing, rather than the team just not turning up. I'm not sure about the lack of direction. They seemed to want to stick to a very simple game plan, come what may, although it's hard to believe that the aimless kicking the ball away was part of that plan. Only Schmidt, and the Players know, I guess. Rather than a lack of direction, I would say it seemed more like a lack of ideas, if that makes sense.

by kunu Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:20 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

SOB is asked to be a pain at the breakdown but he is also asked to do the ball carrying as the 6 is not able to do it. Can't have it all, McCaws Hoopers aren't being asked to do the ball carrying.

I'd pray you're right there! Without our carriers firing, a decent rush seems to be able to shut Ireland down completely. Wouldn't say O Mahony is a bad carrier- he's just better in wide channels. SOB does seem to be the go-to guy around the fringes.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ME-109 wrote:He was ok...but the fact he was seen as our best forward isnt saying much. Favaro was the best forward on the pitch. For me Best tried to up the intensity on occasions but didnt get much support. SOB was actually hammered by Allen once.

Given you wont want to hear it as you are so anti POM but he won the lineout that lead to our try, made a try saving tackle and along with Best was our best ball carrying forward. Definitely the right person to drop..

I am not anti POM! I am a big fan of the guy, and although I don't think he is yet at his best, I do think he had a better performance than the rest, bar Henderson and Best (ok maybe equal to Best) Another way to look at it is I think Henderson, POM and Best were the best of a poor bunch today.

I also completely agree with everything you wrote.......other than the POM comment, obviously

Wasnt directed at you...sorry. But to my mind the whole shooting lot were poor today....seemed to lack direction and intensity..

They lacked intensity, no question, although I'm not sure how much that has been Schmidts doing, rather than the team just not turning up. I'm not sure about the lack of direction. They seemed to want to stick to a very simple game plan, come what may, although it's hard to believe that the aimless kicking the ball away was part of that plan. Only Schmidt, and the Players know, I guess. Rather than a lack of direction, I would say it seemed more like a lack of ideas, if that makes sense.

Here's Joes take...
http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/...-31581574.html

by VinceWLB Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:21 pm

ME-109 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

SOB is asked to be a pain at the breakdown but he is also asked to do the ball carrying as the 6 is not able to do it. Can't have it all, McCaws Hoopers aren't being asked to do the ball carrying.

Well you are completely incorrect there as POM (along with Best) was our best ball carrier. No need to apologise.

He got a lucky break then (literally!), POM doesn't scare the defenses the way SOB or Ferris did. Best isn't a ball carrier either, these stats are pretty meaningless if you ask me. In the most physical games POM has been found wanting and next sunday will be no different. POM could work well but as a 7 like at Munster when he had Stander and Coughlan next to him to do the ball carrying.

by kunu Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:25 pm

Think Best tapes over the cracks SOB shows in 7. Really clever player. I think Strauss should probably be in the 22 for the same reasons.

by The Great Aukster Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:26 pm

scrummy wrote:Awful game today. I think it was a motivation problem and I believe we'll play a lot better against France. Worrying performance by our half-backs and I think we're all agreed that constantly kicking away possession might not be the best way to go. One of the few good things to come out of today's game is that after seeing our disjointed backline the Payne debate has been firmly put to bed.

Well said Scrummy!

The half backs were noticeably misfiring especially Murray. His constant kicking away of possession was frustrating especially when he had an overlap on at least one occasion. The knock on was inexcusable given it was a penalty move, maybe he was trying too hard?

Agree on Payne.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:32 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

SOB is asked to be a pain at the breakdown but he is also asked to do the ball carrying as the 6 is not able to do it. Can't have it all, McCaws Hoopers aren't being asked to do the ball carrying.

Well you are completely incorrect there as POM (along with Best) was our best ball carrier. No need to apologise.

He got a lucky break then (literally!), POM doesn't scare the defenses the way SOB or Ferris did. Best isn't a ball carrier either, these stats are pretty meaningless if you ask me. In the most physical games POM has been found wanting and next sunday will be no different. POM could work well but as a 7 like at Munster when he had Stander and Coughlan next to him to do the ball carrying.

Well vince you are completely incorrect (not for the first time). He does plenty of ball carrying for Munster and is one of our primaries for that. Ferris is an irrelevance at this stage(however I always liked the fact an ageing Alan Quinlan always had him in his pocket)...

But look if you want to ignore the stats or say they are meaningless thats fine but the facts here are that Henderson, Healy/McGrath and SOB did nothing in that department so clearly Best and POM had to stand up. No point in mentioning Horselips here as he was busy being taught by Sergio how to play no.8.

by RubyGuby Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:34 pm

I think Ireland lacked some patience in this one and wanted to put the game away too early. That for me played into the Italians hands. If they had kept taking the 3 Pts and gone about their business with a bit more control and composure then Italy IMO would have folded and then you play that tempo. Nothing too much to worry about but Ireland would have been somewhat relieved when Italy chose to bring on a chap who has never played a senior game!!! That for me was a "Nick Phipps" moment if ever there was. Good luck men in green thumbsup

by The Great Aukster Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:36 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
kunu wrote:SOB stands out to me as a particularly poor performer at the moment. Aside from his heavily man-marked carrying game, his handling and link play have been fairly bad during the last few months. He never looks comfortable on the pass, and has absolutely no subtlety - not what you want from a 7 at all. We may be better off starting Henry, and using Healy & Hendo as our primary ball carriers.

SOB is first and foremost a 6. He could be used at 8 in a Pocock like way. He never was and will never be an out and out 7.

I dunno if he even could at the moment. He used to be known as an absolute pain to shift off the ball, but at the moment he's not causing too many problems.

SOB is asked to be a pain at the breakdown but he is also asked to do the ball carrying as the 6 is not able to do it. Can't have it all, McCaws Hoopers aren't being asked to do the ball carrying.

Well you are completely incorrect there as POM (along with Best) was our best ball carrier. No need to apologise.

He got a lucky break then (literally!), POM doesn't scare the defenses the way SOB or Ferris did. Best isn't a ball carrier either, these stats are pretty meaningless if you ask me. In the most physical games POM has been found wanting and next sunday will be no different. POM could work well but as a 7 like at Munster when he had Stander and Coughlan next to him to do the ball carrying.

Best has surprised me with his ball carrying in this tournament. It is something that Schmidt has got him doing and he is doing it fairly well as he has reasonable hands.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:38 pm

Munchkin wrote:

They lacked intensity, no question, although I'm not sure how much that has been Schmidts doing, rather than the team just not turning up. I'm not sure about the lack of direction. They seemed to want to stick to a very simple game plan, come what may, although it's hard to believe that the aimless kicking the ball away was part of that plan. Only Schmidt, and the Players know, I guess. Rather than a lack of direction, I would say it seemed more like a lack of ideas, if that makes sense.

You'd have to have an exceptional degree of confidence as a coach in knowing the minds of your players to send them out to play a very restricted gameplan in a World Cup against Italy, that were always going to fight for their lives.

I'm not saying that's a wrong theory, Munch. But if Joe wanted them to keep it simple right to the bitter end, even if the scoreboard threatened to lose us the game, then he'd have to be very confident that players would then be still in the right buoyant mood going into a massive game against France.
The players were in a feel-good mood after the first two games. They were allowed play, run and score tries. They needed those blow out games because the team need to be in a positive frame of mind going into the business end. If Joe commanded that the gameplan against Italy remained limited, then he's risked a lot in turning off that 'confidence button' again.

The players won't feel good about that game, even had they been under instructions. And some of them might begin to doubt themselves again as France approaches. Something went very wrong and I think Schmidt's tone suggests he's lost a degree of confidence himself. That's or he and the team are doing some wonderful acting!!!

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:39 pm

I think POM has had more impact in these games than SOB has had. So I don't see how he can be dropped. But I do like the sound of having Henry on the pitch - coz we need something to change in the next few weeks if we're going to challenge the big teams. We especially need SOB, Healy and Henderson to start knocking through sides of the breakdown area.

What about SOB in for Heaslip? Or is that just naive? Is Heaslip doing things I don't know about that SOB couldn't? SOB, Henry and POM in the back row... with Healy and Henderson also in the mix... that sounds good to me.

by kunu Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:43 pm

Think something Tholand picked up on in commentary is true enough - Ireland defended like Schmidt's old club-level Leinster (using the touch lines and drifting etc), probably with the intention of misleading France and containing the Italians. We allowed them territory in the hope that we'll bundle them into touch. In fairness, when we used that tactic in the first half the Italians never looked like scoring. Unfortunately it allowed the Italians to build up a head of steam and heaped the pressure on us. Tried to be too clever.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:44 pm

ME-109 wrote:

Here's Joes take...
http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/...-31581574.html

Joe sounds like he has half a white flag up the pole already. He's in a weird mood lately. Halfway between being emotionally dethatched and scared Schmidtless.

I think he's hinting that we should be already talking about how we'll try to deal with New Zealand in the quarters.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:49 pm

ME-109 wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/ireland-player-ratings-iain-henderson-immense-in-the-second-row-against-the-italians-31581403.html

Not sure what game this guy was watching..

I agree actually - some of those ratings are completely mind boggling. An 8 for Conor Murray? That was one of his worst games yet. Rory Best with the joint lowest score in the pack? Lol.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:50 pm

Too early to suggest its 2007 revisited....we won and in truth never looked really like losing. Next week is another game and another chance.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:51 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
ME-109 wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/ireland-player-ratings-iain-henderson-immense-in-the-second-row-against-the-italians-31581403.html

Not sure what game this guy was watching..

I agree actually - some of those ratings are completely mind boggling. An 8 for Conor Murray? That was one of his worst games yet. Rory Best with the joint lowest score in the pack? Lol.

I know thats what I meant....although some of your compatriots seemed to think I was attacking our new saviour of irish rugby (of whom I am a big fan)

by Guest Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:55 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Highly erratic? No he isn't. Not that he is completely predictable, but he's certainly not highly erratic. Zebo would be a player better described as erratic. Agree on the high balls. The tapping back is something I noticed at Ulster. Not great, and I think it comes from a lack of confidence, which is poor in itself. I think Bowe has certainly been improving, although I would say he is there just yet. Getting better. I would have him over Zebo because I trust him more, regardless of your claims of being highly erratic. The one big advantage Zebo has over Bowe is his speed. Something that really stood out for me in todays game, and that makes it difficult to know which is the better option. So much so that I wouldn't question Zebo being picked ahead of Bowe.

Munch, I've had my fun with Zebo in the early days of Schmidt's reign. I've never had too much worries about him to be honest, but yes, I do think Schmidt was right in saying he needed to become more interested in the dog work as much as the slick attack stuff.
And I'm impressed by him now. He's bedded down, he's matured. He still likes the smiling rugby high jinx stuff if it's on, but I trust him and don't have an issue with him at all. Incidently, me speaking about conditioning earlier, I think he's the fittest player in the Irish squad. He always looks fresh and full of energy even to the last 80.

On Bowe, I have to be honest - and I did say he was good against Romania and deserved another crack at it. But for the life of me, I cannot fathom how so many commentators say he's a wing in the right form to be 'nailed on' to this Irish team that wants to progress to the semis at least. I honestly can't.
I see a player rushing around full of anxiety, over extending, over-trying, trying to impress, trying to over-reach when he knows catches are not on. He'd be better off sometimes just letting the opposition player receive the ball and then hit him. But he always goes for those aerials and I'm telling you, and I'm telling everyone, if he keeps it up, he'll be crucified (and we'll be crucified) by better players in up and coming better sides.

He can score tries, he can be hard in defence but for me he's become another Fitz, hyperactive and dangerous. Too eager to please and unwilling to temper it.

I agree that Zebo has improved his game to become a more rounded player, but I still think he tends to let slip his concentration at times. Other than that he would probably be starting on the wing. That's why I tend to trust Bowe more. I get what you're saying about his trying to impress too much, but I think that was more true of his first game than his last two games. He had a shocker, and he's improved in both games since. Bowe is still very good in the air. He proved as much with a catch today. Why he then tapped the ball back on a couple of occasions, giving the ball away, I don't know, but I think it's probably a confidence issue. I share your concern that it is a liability, but I can't see Schmidt not addressing the issue in the next team meeting. I don't think it's a huge issue right now. I don't believe he will play v France if Schmidt doesn't trust him not to make the same mistakes. Not saying that I think he would start anyway, but if that was the only reason not to start him, I think it's an issue that can be fixed.

P.s Bowe is not another Fitz! mad

by Exiled Gael Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:55 pm

The best collective Irish backrow in recent years was Henry/Heaslip/POM. POM, SOB and Heaslip are all better players than Henry (and arguably Murphy is as well) but Henry carries out certain functions better than others. The backrow should be better than the sum of its parts. Look at Wales- it's madness that Tipuric isn't in the side on paper. But the unit is collectively better with Lydiate & Warburton. The Six Nations two seasons ago suggested that Ireland could be as well. Someone of SOB or POM (SOB for me) should miss out. The unit would benefit greatly. The breakdown was a shambles today. Can you imagine if we played the Aussies with the backrow we put out today?

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:56 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ME-109 wrote:

Here's Joes take...
http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/...-31581574.html

Joe sounds like he has half a white flag up the pole already. He's in a weird mood lately. Halfway between being emotionally dethatched and scared Schmidtless.

I think he's hinting that we should be already talking about how we'll try to deal with New Zealand in the quarters.

I can't see how you're being fair their SF. I mean he's damned either way after a performance like that. If he talked like Ireland were shoe-ins for a quarter against Argentina then everyone would be jumping on his back sayig he was oblivious to what had just happened and was still over-confident. If he dampens expectations and tries to get the players into a dog-fight mindset (which I think he has to now)... then he's accused of sounding defeatist and returning to Ireland's old mentality.

For my money, he's right. He needs to dampen exaggeration either way: if we beat France, I think Argentina are still a truly tough team to play... and if we lose to France (which is always possible - just look at the scores from the last 5 years)... then it's right that we should still stay focused and look to beat the AB's. No matter the difficult odds. They didn't look too hot themselves this time around.

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:58 pm

ME-109 wrote:Too early to suggest its 2007 revisited....we won and in truth never looked really like losing. Next week is another game and another chance.

^THIS^

...and it's not just another game... I think it's a whole new competition from here on in.

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