England v Australia, 3 October - The Cool Down Thread

[George Carlin]

ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA
3 October 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: George Clancy (Ireland) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

43 Played 43
18 Won 24
1 Drawn 1
24 Lost 18
661 Points 907

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Twickenham, London
26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013
Twickenham, London
20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012
Twickenham, London
14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010
Twickenham, London
35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010
Telstra Stadium, Sydney
20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010
Subiaco Oval, Perth
27 – 17 to Australia

7 November 2009
Twickenham, London
9 – 18 to Australia

15 November 2008
Twickenham, London
14 – 28 to Australia

6 October 2007
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France
10 – 12 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 41 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 25 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 33 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 35 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 26 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 40 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 41 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 30 caps)

16. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 25 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 52 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 25 caps)
22. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)

AUSTRALIA

1. Scott Sio (12 Tests)
2. Stephen Moore (c) (97 Tests)
3. Sekope Kepu (58 Tests)
4. Kane Douglas (18 Tests)
5. Rob Simmons (55 Tests)
6. Scott Fardy (25 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (vc) (47 Tests)
8. David Pocock (51 Tests)

9. Will Genia (61 Tests)
10. Bernard Foley (22 Tests)
11. Rob Horne (28 Tests)
12. Matt Giteau (97 Tests)
13. Tevita Kuridrani (25 Tests)
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper (vc) (109 Tests)
15. Israel Folau (34 Tests)

*Reserves to be confirmed

++++++++++++++++++++

A continuation of the original match thread:

[TightHEAD]

One word - Bugger

[TightHEAD]

So who is going to send their CV in to the RFU?

[TightHEAD]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

[George Carlin]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

No problem:

1. Drink heavily - don't try and be a hero.
2. Swim around in the pain.
3. Lose a weekend or two.
4. Then sack the coach and employ a Kiwi who actually knows what he's doing.

It's bulletproof. Trust me. I'm a Scottish rugby fan.

[TightHEAD]

Cheers,

Everyone has their price, so how much do you think it would cost to get Gatland in?

[aucklandlaurie]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

Keep supporting the tournament, there was an English supporter on here a couple of days ago telling us that this is the best World cup ever, especially better than New Zealand 2011, even though we didnt see anything particularly wrong with it.

[George Carlin]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

Keep supporting the tournament, there was an English supporter on here a couple of days ago telling us that this is the best World cup ever, especially better than New Zealand 2011, even though we didnt see anything particularly wrong with it.

I think that was just a comment about aggregate attendances (which are very high) and number of tries scored so far, Laurie.

Nothing you can do about the fact that the quality of the lower order teams seems to have improved exponentially since 2011.

[Rugby Fan]

...Keep supporting the tournament, there was an English supporter on here a couple of days ago telling us that this is the best World cup ever, especially better than New Zealand 2011, even though we didnt see anything particularly wrong with it.

I saw that comment Laurie, and I think you are taking it the wrong way. It was just repeating what Brett Gosper has said about viewing figures and attendances, and wasn't a pop at the last World Cup in NZ.

I do think we've had some cracking matches, but we'll see how the rest of the tournament pans out. Quite frankly, if we really do have a growing sport, then we should hope that every tournament is a step up from the ones before.

[Guest]

I saw a comment that implied NZ media were 'obsessed' with talking about England because they were jealous that the NZ RWC was not as successful as this one. Which is bl00dy rediculous on many levels if you ask me.

[maestegmafia]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

Keep supporting the tournament, there was an English supporter on here a couple of days ago telling us that this is the best World cup ever, especially better than New Zealand 2011, even though we didnt see anything particularly wrong with it.

Laurie

I think that comment was to do more with the current abilities of lower ranked teams being more competitive.

[Hood83]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

No problem:

1. Drink heavily - don't try and be a hero.
2. Swim around in the pain.
3. Lose a weekend or two.
4. Then sack the coach and employ a Kiwi who actually knows what he's doing.

It's bulletproof. Trust me. I'm a Scottish rugby fan.

Can I fit a sulk and a 'throwing toys out of the pram' into that list?

[George Carlin]

I saw a comment that implied NZ media were 'obsessed' with talking about England because they were jealous that the NZ RWC was not as successful as this one. Which is bl00dy rediculous on many levels if you ask me.

Was this in the Daily Fail by any chance?

[Hood83]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

Keep supporting the tournament, there was an English supporter on here a couple of days ago telling us that this is the best World cup ever, especially better than New Zealand 2011, even though we didnt see anything particularly wrong with it.

Please repeat after me 'one poster is not representative of all others'...that said, it is better. Or was until yesterday

Just kidding. But it may take me a week to get back into it.

[Rugby Fan]

I know I'm late to this one, but I was having a hard time understanding Joe Launchbury's man of the match award when Foley or Pocock would have been worthier winners.

I thought it smacked of of one of those sympathy man of the match awards that Parise used to get.

Turns out the voting system is a farce

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/rugby-world-cup/bernard-foley-scores-28-points-wallabies-win-englands-joe-launchbury-is-man-of-the-match-20151004-gk0xr8.html

[Guest]

Society has a lot to answer for, shame on everyone.

[aucklandlaurie]

Its the twits on twitter.

[nathan]

We had to win something!

[Guest]

You guys will also win best RWC ever probably.

[yappysnap]

Watching last night I was so proud of the English clubs hiding the salary cap breaches from the general public.

Because the last thing we need is a shock for the host union at this RWC

[yappysnap]

You guys will also win best RWC ever probably.

As voted for on Twitter

[Welsh-Wizzard]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

I would just say get used to it, I doubt things will get much better for you. I feel 2003 will be England's Wendy Ball's 1966. Anyway a respectable show for the 6th placed World Ranking.

Question: We know it will not happen but if Uruguay beat Fiji and England with a better difference and came 3rd, would England have to qualify for the next world cup?

[bedfordwelsh]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

Yep, drink heavily and forget that has always been my best way, don't forget its not just World Cups we have had practice in this feeling. I use to travel to Twickenham every other year during the 90s where let's be honest Wales were utter garbage.

You will then have to try and look for some positives which to be fair in your backline there is some. Joseph and Watson are class, SL (or if there is to be a new coach) needs to come to a decision over his midfield and build a backline around the likes Joseph, Watson and Brown (though I do dislike him he is class).

[RDW]

There has been a lot of focus on the coaching team, but what are people's opinions on Robshaw?

He's a hard working player, no doubt about that, but the 7s for all the other top nations have at least one outstanding attribute or facet to their play. Robshaw is neither a dominant tackler, big ball carrier, link man or turnover specialist. He's the classic 6.5, but I don't know if that is effective in the modern game any more.

Do England have better options at 7? Apart from Armitage...

[kiakahaaotearoa]

If you're not a fan of Lancaster, this is a hollow victory as his position is now untenable.

Other than that it's a bitter blow and I do feel for England fans. Unceremonious exits are hard to take but if that fury and frustration are channeled effectively, then results can bear fruit and lessons can be learned in time for the next World Cup.

This is a young England side and they already have a very solid base from which to work. The new coach must let go of the conservative streak. Out with the likes of Farrell, Barritt and Wood and unleash the fury on Europe.

Win some 6N titles and get some momentum. The difference between first and second is negligible. Look at the Wales game. The right frame of mind is crucial. Be relentless in your determination to right this wrong. Let this cruel experience serve as something useful.

[Geordie]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

I would just say get used to it, I doubt things will get much better for you.  I feel 2003 will be England's Wendy Ball's 1966.  Anyway a respectable show for the 6th placed World Ranking.

Question:  We know it will not happen but if Uruguay beat Fiji and England with a better difference and came 3rd, would England have to qualify for the next world cup?

At least that's one more than Wales have.

But have no fear a new coach who actually can use the abundance of talent coming through and we can get back to challenging the proper teams not the tier two teams like Wales....

[Welsh-Wizzard]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

I would just say get used to it, I doubt things will get much better for you.  I feel 2003 will be England's Wendy Ball's 1966.  Anyway a respectable show for the 6th placed World Ranking.

Question:  We know it will not happen but if Uruguay beat Fiji and England with a better difference and came 3rd, would England have to qualify for the next world cup?

At least that's one more than Wales have.

But have no fear a new coach who actually can use the abundance of talent coming through and we can get back to challenging the proper teams not the tier two teams like Wales....  

Indeed, how I wish you could tell us Welsh you had such an impressive record against us but after well over 100 years we are still on par if not better than you. Keep the faith see you in Japan and of course the 6 Nations, we are at Twickers again no?

[Geordie]

There has been a lot of focus on the coaching team, but what are people's opinions on Robshaw?

He's a hard working player, no doubt about that, but the 7s for all the other top nations have at least one outstanding attribute or facet to their play. Robshaw is neither a dominant tackler, big ball carrier, link man or turnover specialist. He's the classic 6.5, but I don't know if that is effective in the modern game any more.

Do England have better options at 7? Apart from Armitage...

matt Kvesic. YouTube him.... Outstanding. 22 and captain material.

And you have Clifford a Jwc winner at quins.

[Geordie]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

I would just say get used to it, I doubt things will get much better for you.  I feel 2003 will be England's Wendy Ball's 1966.  Anyway a respectable show for the 6th placed World Ranking.

Question:  We know it will not happen but if Uruguay beat Fiji and England with a better difference and came 3rd, would England have to qualify for the next world cup?

At least that's one more than Wales have.

But have no fear a new coach who actually can use the abundance of talent coming through and we can get back to challenging the proper teams not the tier two teams like Wales....  

Indeed, how I wish you could tell us Welsh you had such an impressive record against us but after well over 100 years we are still on par if not better than you.  Keep the faith see you in Japan and of course the 6 Nations, we are at Twickers again no?

Enjoy the moment...

[GavCanDance]

Hard luck England. Lost against 2 very good teams and there is no shame in that. Could have been Aus or Wales going out just as easily. I really do feel for all of the genuine Eng rugby fans out there. It will get better. ☺

[Rugby Fan]

...results can bear fruit and lessons can be learned in time for the next World Cup...

I think supporters will want much earlier signs of progress than that. We've got a Six Nations up in a few months, and a three match tour of Australia in summer.

[InjuredYetAgain]

There has been a lot of focus on the coaching team, but what are people's opinions on Robshaw?

He's a hard working player, no doubt about that, but the 7s for all the other top nations have at least one outstanding attribute or facet to their play. Robshaw is neither a dominant tackler, big ball carrier, link man or turnover specialist. He's the classic 6.5, but I don't know if that is effective in the modern game any more.

Do England have better options at 7? Apart from Armitage...

matt Kvesic.  YouTube him.... Outstanding. 22 and captain material.

And you have Clifford a Jwc winner at quins.

From what I saw of him at JWC,he looked a really good prospect but is he getting enough game time at 'quins? There is also that young black guy at Sarries who may only be about 20 (I am sorry I can't remember his name). I think he played lock at the JWC but had moved into the backrow. He looks quite thin but is ultra-dynamic.

One last observation - congratulations to the English fans on here. Unlike other countries (and,yes, I do include some Scotland fans in this) there has been a refreshing lack of bitterness, complaining about the ref etc. Well done guys, you have handled the aftermath with dignity

[Sin é]

There has been a lot of focus on the coaching team, but what are people's opinions on Robshaw?

He's a hard working player, no doubt about that, but the 7s for all the other top nations have at least one outstanding attribute or facet to their play. Robshaw is neither a dominant tackler, big ball carrier, link man or turnover specialist. He's the classic 6.5, but I don't know if that is effective in the modern game any more.

Do England have better options at 7? Apart from Armitage...

matt Kvesic.  YouTube him.... Outstanding. 22 and captain material.

And you have Clifford a Jwc winner at quins.

He also has Pocock's former coach at the Brumbies, Laurie Fisher now coaching him. Superb breakdown coach from all accounts.

[Welsh-Wizzard]

Seeing as us English fans are not use to this disappointment at the RWC - (3 finals in 8 world cups, not too bad!) could the other home nations fans (       ) give us some guidance on how to get over the disappointment, as this is a real shock for us?

I would just say get used to it, I doubt things will get much better for you.  I feel 2003 will be England's Wendy Ball's 1966.  Anyway a respectable show for the 6th placed World Ranking.

Question:  We know it will not happen but if Uruguay beat Fiji and England with a better difference and came 3rd, would England have to qualify for the next world cup?

At least that's one more than Wales have.

But have no fear a new coach who actually can use the abundance of talent coming through and we can get back to challenging the proper teams not the tier two teams like Wales....  

Indeed, how I wish you could tell us Welsh you had such an impressive record against us but after well over 100 years we are still on par if not better than you.  Keep the faith see you in Japan and of course the 6 Nations, we are at Twickers again no?

Enjoy the moment...

We did 4 years ago too Here's to the next 100 years.

[majesticimperialman]

I think it was Danny Cipriani who said there was not a single Australian player that would get in the England team.

After last night's performance, there is not a single English player that would get in the Australian team.

That is just my opinion.

[Pal Joey]

Yeah, even before last night's performance.

[InjuredYetAgain]

I think it was Danny Cipriani who said there was not a single Australian player that would get in  the England team.

After last night's performance, there is not a single English player that would get in the Australian team.

That is just my opinion.

I suspect that he wishes that he hadn't said that now

[eirebilly]

The issues as I see it.

Lancaster and his coaches set up his teams against Wales and Australia in an attempt to purely counter their rugby styles instead of playing the good rugby that had been played during the 6N. This option rarely works and it was a horrible mistake to make at a RWC.

Had England picked a more dynamic backline (Ford, who is superior to Farrell) then I believe that England would have beaten Wales and possibly beaten Australia.

I said before the tournament that I would have had Cips over Farrell any day of the week as although Farrell is a decent player, his style does not match that of the way England want to play and as a result, it affects them greatly.

English fans keep telling me that Farrell is a big game player with composure and that Ford is not. I simply cant agree with this.

Lancaster is a good man for the job but his backroom staff have to go.

[mikey_dragon]

It was a bit cheeky of Cipriani to even contemplate it though, when he can't get into the England team...

[Scottrf]

Come on guys, he just said that so he's not singling out any English players. How people would moan if he said 'Yeah I'd replace Robshaw and the centres' erc

[mikey_dragon]

The issues as I see it.

Lancaster and his coaches set up his teams against Wales and Australia in an attempt to purely counter their rugby styles instead of playing the good rugby that had been played during the 6N. This option rarely works and it was a horrible mistake to make at a RWC.

Had England picked a more dynamic backline (Ford, who is superior to Farrell) then I believe that England would have beaten Wales and possibly beaten Australia.

I said before the tournament that I would have had Cips over Farrell any day of the week as although Farrell is a decent player, his style does not match that of the way England want to play and as a result, it affects them greatly.

English fans keep telling me that Farrell is a big game player with composure and that Ford is not. I simply cant agree with this.

Lancaster is a good man for the job but his backroom staff have to go.

England's backs are good and can score against anyone. Their problems are up front IMO. Scrums and lineouts are misfiring, England have traditionally been very good in these areas, and they were strong there in the 6 Nations. The English props have decided to stop scrumming straight, and the replacement props have always been average in the scum, but in Mako's case very good around the field. They're second best at the breakdown - Robshaw at 6 with Armitage at 7 would be a tasty force. Lose in all these areas and your halfbacks have a right job on their hands. England have the capable players, it's the coaching team that needs an overhaul I reckon.

[Scottrf]

The major problem is that we pretty much won no turnovers from breakdowns in the tournament and lost plenty. Yet Lancaster (and most others) see it as a discipline problem as if penalties come out of nowhere.

[VinceWLB]

Luke Wallace has always looked a handful whenever i got to see him play for Quins.

[rozakthegoon]

It was a bit cheeky of Cipriani to even contemplate it though, when he can't get into the England team...

He was put on the spot and backed his mates. It was a dick question

[Guest]

I think it was Danny Cipriani who said there was not a single Australian player that would get in  the England team.

After last night's performance, there is not a single English player that would get in the Australian team.

That is just my opinion.

I suspect that he wishes that he hadn't said that now

What about Ben Youngs and his first twenty minutes chat? A Welshman or Sir Warren wouldn't have got off so lightly.

[Guest]

It was a bit cheeky of Cipriani to even contemplate it though, when he can't get into the England team...

He did admit that his comment was a bit tongue in cheek. He was asked which Aussie players would get into the England squad. He didn't want to single out which English players they would replace. Fair enough, methinks.

[mikey_dragon]

It was a bit cheeky of Cipriani to even contemplate it though, when he can't get into the England team...

He did admit that his comment was a bit tongue in cheek. He was asked which Aussie players would get into the England squad. He didn't want to single out which English players they would replace. Fair enough, methinks.

I'll be honest with you, I only read the headline! I read AAC's response to it, so assumed it must have been a bit cheeky. I probably should have just read Cipriani's quote in the first instance.

[Guest]

It was a bit cheeky of Cipriani to even contemplate it though, when he can't get into the England team...

He did admit that his comment was a bit tongue in cheek. He was asked which Aussie players would get into the England squad. He didn't want to single out which English players they would replace. Fair enough, methinks.

I'll be honest with you, I only read the headline! I read AAC's response to it, so assumed it must have been a bit cheeky. I probably should have just read Cipriani's quote in the first instance.

I wouldn't have known it was tongue in cheek myself, but for his reply in the second interview, mikey. It wasn't until then I realised he was caught between a rock and a hard place

[Newsilure]

As a Wales supporter I am delighted that Wales are through to the quarters but must admit to a bit of an empty feeling because of England's early exit. Put simply I think my problem is that the Robin Hood story just wouldn't be as much fun without the Sheriff of Nottingham and a world cup based in England is going to lack a little spark without England being there to take on again.

I'm probably just at the maudlin stage of sobering up.

[nobbled]

Not sure this is the right thread for it but following Newsilure's comments -

Well done Wales on making it through. Good luck - try to keep the boys you have left in one piece!
All the best.

Having been knocked out the Lottery funding for rugby has now been given to the England swimming team - as they know how to get out of a pool....

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