England vs Australia, 3 October

    
ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA
3 October 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: George Clancy (Ireland) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

43 Played 43
18 Won 24
1 Drawn 1
24 Lost 18
661 Points 907

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Twickenham, London
26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013
Twickenham, London
20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012
Twickenham, London
14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010
Twickenham, London
35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010
Telstra Stadium, Sydney
20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010
Subiaco Oval, Perth
27 – 17 to Australia

7 November 2009
Twickenham, London
9 – 18 to Australia

15 November 2008
Twickenham, London
14 – 28 to Australia

6 October 2007
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France
10 – 12 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 41 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 25 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 33 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 35 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 26 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 40 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 41 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 30 caps)

16. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 25 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 52 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 25 caps)
22. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)

AUSTRALIA

1. Scott Sio (12 Tests)
2. Stephen Moore (c) (97 Tests)
3. Sekope Kepu (58 Tests)
4. Kane Douglas (18 Tests)
5. Rob Simmons (55 Tests)
6. Scott Fardy (25 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (vc) (47 Tests)
8. David Pocock (51 Tests)

9. Will Genia (61 Tests)
10. Bernard Foley (22 Tests)
11. Rob Horne (28 Tests)
12. Matt Giteau (97 Tests)
13. Tevita Kuridrani (25 Tests)
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper (vc) (109 Tests)
15. Israel Folau (34 Tests)

*Reserves to be confirmed

Must win game for England.

Not just your usual must win game but a Must win game with a capital M.

I think England will win it personally, we're due a big game after what's been served up for us and the players will be hurting. We must use that emotion.

Just seen that Vunipola, Lawes and Joseph might all miss this game, Lancaster must play Slade at 13. If I was him I'd also be straight on the phone to Easter, he'd help a lot off the bench. Shame Kruis is the only other lock, as he gives away about 25kg to Skelton and isn't a good bench option.

As mentioned on another thread, we could be short of players.

If Lawes, Vunipola and Morgan are injured, and Wood draws a ban, then we are left with Kruis, Launchbury and Parling as locks, with Haskell and Robshaw in the back row.

The Telegraph speculates that Burgess could even make an appearance on the blind side in that instance. It would leave Kruis as sole bench cover for the back row and second row.

If Vunipola's injury is serious, then I suppose he could be sent home and Easter called up. I don't know what the tournament protocol is, but if we are short of fit options, then we may have to send someone home even if they would be fit later in the tournament. If we can't beat Australia, then there will be no "later in the tournament".

If Morgan and Vunipola are both out one of them has to be on their way for Easter. The next game is the only one that matters and Easter was close to this squad anyway.

Sad to see England are losing players almost as fast as Wales...!

At this rate I think Australia will win all their games going through top of the group and Wales and England will be fighting it out for second spot in the points difference against Fiji and Uruguay.

Wales have a big ask to beat Fiji on Thursday with so many players out at this stage.

It will be fascinating to see what SL does for this game. It's now become the biggest game of his tenure.

Looks very ominous for England but therein lies the danger for Australia. So important for us not to lose (as well) and I hope Cheika has them properly fired up and there is no complacency whatsoever. Would be interesting to be a fly on the wall at training this week to see how The Cheik drums this in and motivates them to perform at their best.

Have a feeling that if our forwards can make some yardage and secure the ball well, then that will be a much needed platform for our backs to let loose... and hopefully make things stick. If the Wallabies can put some pressure on the England team, seemingly in early stages of disarray... then another wheel might wobble off the chariot.

On the other hand... we could be over-exuberant again and be prone to silly errors thereby squandering potential opportunities. Then there is the Poite factor. If indeed they have lifted their scrummaging skills (wasn't apparent v Fiji but I think they have improved too) then there should be less to worry about. Happy with our scavenging skills and work around the breakdown. As I say... we need that good quick quality ball to the backline without the silly stuff ups or ill discipline.

Can't afford to miss those very kickable kicks either. So embarrassing. Australia are notorious for leaving 9-12 points on the field on a regular basis. That has to stop! It'd be nice to see a 75% success rate or even 80.

Again I'd like to reiterate what many have said since Sat night. England will be feeling as though they have to win at all costs and that could well spell danger for us if we are behind on the scoreboard early and then have to resort to catch-up rugby.

Cooper's kicking was less than 50% in the last match and that surely cannot continue.

From an England perspective, the big concern has to be choosing the personnel to manage a vicious Fardy, Hooper & Pocock loose forward combination. It is not entirely clear that England will be able to combat it given the injuries that they have.

Forgot to add - England will no doubt be treating this match like a Final. So too must Oz.

Wales have already played theirs...

Just joking. Australia will most certainly have their mettle tested against the dragons too the following weekend.

Lots was made of Wales's injuries on Saturday, but England were probably more hindered by the loss of Youngs and Billy V.

BBC article seems to be positive on Morgan coming back. A bit worrying that they are talking about giving as much time as possible for Joseph to prove his fitness (suggests he's unlikely). Youngs a doubt, and reading between the lines I think Billy V and Lawes are unlikely to be available.

So that leaves the possibility of:
Marler
Youngs
Cole
Parling
Launchbury
Robshaw
Wood
Morgan

Care
Ford / Farrell
May
Burgess
Slade
Watson
Brown

Subs
Mako
Webber / George
Brooks
Kruis
Haskell
Wiggy
Ford / Farrell
Nowell / Goode

"Lots was made of Wales's injuries on Saturday, but England were probably more hindered by the loss of Youngs and Billy V. "

You've just got to love that statement - Are you a journalist for the Telegraph by any chance just brought on board for the RWC?

Will you stop putting that stupid thumbs up emote after you insult someone please.

Unless you enjoy looking like a dick.

Wood cleared to play vs Aus, just given a warning about kicking players in the head.

LondonTiger wrote:Will you stop putting that stupid thumbs up emote after you insult someone please.

Unless you enjoy looking like a dick.

Yeah maybe that's not his thumb....

Heard a rumor that JJ might be fit, if so he has to play.

PS,

I feel England allowed themselves to be more affected by the loss of certain injured players, whereas Wales reacted positively to adversity. All credit to Wales fo rthat.

LondonTiger wrote:Will you stop putting that stupid thumbs up emote after you insult someone please.

Unless you enjoy looking like a dick.

Lets be straight here - do you really think that England were more hampered by injuries? Now I appreciate you're hurting which is fair enough but I find that suggestion absurd. If you beg to differ then that's fine. As for the thumbs up, I've been posting for god knows how many years on here and have ALWAYS used that after every post.

Wales should have been more hampered, but just got on with it.

England however were dreadful after Youngs went off.


Wales had the worst injuries, to more people, but England were the team that allowed the injuries to hamper them.


So yes England were more hampered, but because they reacted badly - while in adversity Wales rose to the occasion.

Wales always rise to the occasion against England because they base their game on hatred,

I'm not knocking them for doing that as it means they raise their game to a level England could only dream of. We are just too nice sometimes and that is the reason I'd consider making Mike Brown the Captain as we need the fire he has in his belly across the whole team.

I don't its that easy. But when Amos and LW both went off there was almost this feeling of, right, they can't come back from that, and some of the bite went out of England's game.

One of the commentators said they hadn't seen anything like it before, but then he must not have seen that other Welsh victory at Twickenham where England started strongly but were then devastated by injuries, (including Tindall lucky to be alive..) and ended with Ben Kay at 7....

TightHEAD wrote:Wales always rise to the occasion against England because they base their game on hatred,

I'm not knocking them for doing that as it means they raise their game to a level England could only dream of. We are just too nice sometimes and that is the reason I'd consider making Mike Brown the Captain as we need the fire he has in his belly across the whole team.

Disagree with all that. Considering half the Welsh team is 'anglo welsh' these days the real haters are going to be in an increasing minority. And for christ's sake not Brown as captain. He is far too busy being our talisman and best all round player.

Ruby

Wales had worse injuries and ended up with a ridiculous backline, but coped well.

England lost two players that were playing well (Youngs and Billy V) and replaced them with two players who didn't continue to play to the same game plan and were generally poor.

I think Lancaster's tactical substitutions were an issue as well - losing Billy V took out a major carrying option, so surely he had to leave Tom Youngs and Burgess on to retain some power carrying.

I disagree, against England they raise their game because there is a certain amount of hatred there, its not necessary for the players they are up against but its against everything the Red Rose is.

Its pre-programmed.

very much looking forward to this game. I think it is the match of the week

TightHEAD wrote:Wales always rise to the occasion against England because they base their game on hatred,

I'm not knocking them for doing that as it means they raise their game to a level England could only dream of. We are just too nice sometimes and that is the reason I'd consider making Mike Brown the Captain as we need the fire he has in his belly across the whole team.

TH - I can assure you the likes of Warburton, Roberts, Lydiate et al have nothing but absolute respect for England and that remains when they lose to them. Hatred has no part to play in the outcome of these games and it has no place in the game. We all hurt sometimes but that's different. I'll leave you guys to get on with it on this thread

TightHEAD wrote:I disagree, against England they raise their game because there is a certain amount of hatred there, its not necessary for the players they are up against but its against everything the Red Rose is.

Its pre-programmed.

I think hate is a bit OTT.

Why, its like a sibling or best mate rivalry.

There is always hate deep down.

TightHEAD wrote:I disagree, against England they raise their game because there is a certain amount of hatred there, its not necessary for the players they are up against but its against everything the Red Rose is.

Its pre-programmed.

I think it was more true in older days, and there is certainly a real edge for the fans but I don't think its the same for the players. To be honest I think Saturday was one of those days when experience really did make a big difference. Last two games when England won Wales had come out with some fire but then went very quiet for the rest of the game.

In the absence of all the info about who's injured and who's not, here's my England team to play Australia from the full squad.

First, I think we need to pick a team to beat Australia. This does involve looking at them and their weaknesses.

The team is left field, but here are my reasons:

2 opensides (very good ones) helps us out I think. We need to combat this by blasting the breakdown, picking and going with Youngs and runners. We did this really well for 55 minutes on Saturday.

We then need options from the bench to have an impact depending on the score. Closers if we're up, game changers if we're down.

Here's my team:

1 - Marler
2 - Youngs
3 - Cole

Generally, all did pretty well on Saturday. Need to dominate the Aussie scrum.

4 - Parling
5 - Launchbury

Line out was good and Launchbury made a positive impact (the only sub to do so)

6 - Billy V
7 - Wood
8 - Morgan

Need to have power runners over the gain line for Youngs to profit. Wood for the lineout option and is playing better then Robshaw ATM.

9 - Youngs (c)
10 - Farrell

Give Youngs and armband. Seems least mentally challenged of the 'leaders'. Combo worked well for an hour. Farrell needs to help outside, so....

12 - Burgess
13 - Joseph

Bring Joseph in to help Farrell's creative play. Barritt was (and has recently been) awful. Burgess, Morgan and Billy V in unison to blast us over the gain line. Joseph to get on the outside.

11 - May
14 - Watson
15 - Brown

Was it just me who thought Watson looked lame on Saturday? Decent top end speed, but didn't look like he could accelerate. Anyway, hope he's better, but back 3 is the best we've got and hopefully Joseph can engage them.

16 - George
17 - Mako
18 - Brookes
19 - Lawes
20 - Care
21 - Ford
22 - Slade
23 - Nowell

Gone for as much impact as I can get. George over Webber for the turn of pace. Lawes to crunch people.

Gone for a 4:4 split. Burgess can cover back row, and we need the options. If we're within a penalty with 15 minutes to go, keep Farrell on to scrap it out. If not, get Ford on.

If we're losing impact up front, move Burgess to the back row, and give Slade a run. Get Nowell on for the winger who's done least. Get Care on when Youngs' legs go and ask him for tempo. Ford / Farrell to take over as skipper.

Leadership is a problem we just can't solve in the squad. Burgess is the most natural leader on the pitch but hasn't got the tactical nous. After that it's Wood and the half backs. And I just don't trust Wood. At least half backs can add up and I think Youngs has the makings of a good captain.

This team will never happen, but I like the options and this is the sort of game Australia will struggle with.

Hatred, that is not a very nice word. I do not "hate" anybody, more so I doubt professional rugby players do either. I have a lot of friends that are English, we do not hate each other. In my experience, when somebody says that somebody hates them, it is usually the person doing the accusing that has the problem, not the accused. So I will just leave this alone and let the accuser think about what he has said.

Perhaps when the wounds from Saturday night have healed, he will think differently.

There is a hatred there when these two sides step onto a rugby pitch Gareth Thomas said as much in the build up to this game, but it doesn't stop them having respect for each other or a pint afterwards.

But imo Englands players do not have that when they play Wales (apart from Mike Brown) against Aus though I think they have a point to prove and we may see a little bit of anger in their bellies.

offload wrote:It will be fascinating to see what SL does for this game.  It's now become the biggest game of his tenure.

Cue dramatic music!

I'm oddly confident about the Aus game. Perhaps with emphasis on the odd...

Another vote for Ruby to stop using the ruddy 'thumbs up' emoticon. Less is more

The thing going for England is that Aus haven't been tested yet, Fiji did for a short period hound them but they appeared tired due to the schedule and yesterdays game was just a walk through.

If Wales can produce a bonus point win over Fiji (which will be difficult I admit) then a hard game gets very hard indeed .....

Either way I can't see Lancaster lasting the other side of the tournament unless they now go on to at least the final.

Ok the "thumbs up" emoticon is gone

Hope you feel better now

I only wanted you to lose it when you are writing an insulting post.

We have responded to your question about how we feel re the injuries and effect it had on the teams btw.

Irish Londoner wrote:If Wales can produce a bonus point win over Fiji (which will be difficult I admit) then a hard game gets very hard indeed .....

Either way I can't see Lancaster lasting the other side of the tournament unless they now go on to at least the final.

Is this the concensus, do you think? While I think the press will call it a failure, will the supporters want him gone if you get to the semis (or quarters)?

When Lancaster finally does go and the next guy comes in we'll hear all of the exact same calls for so and so to be dismissed and replaced with whichever 'hype of the week' is around at the time. As for the rest of the crew well the forwards played really well in the set pieces for a half at least, and 'daddy's boy' and the league import also both played well.

Biltong wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I disagree, against England they raise their game because there is a certain amount of hatred there, its not necessary for the players they are up against but its against everything the Red Rose is.

Its pre-programmed.

I think hate is a bit OTT.

no idea what its like for the actual players, but everyone one of the wonderful, lovely, kind, english living and english loving welshmen and welshwomen i know here in birmingham, have a wild anger/hate in their eyes, beastlike, when the rugby VS england comes around. Just the way it is.

"no idea what its like for the actual players, but everyone one of the wonderful, lovely, kind, english living and english loving welshmen and welshwomen i know here in birmingham, have a wild anger/hate in their eyes, beastlike, when the rugby VS england comes around. Just the way it is."

Yeah and here in England Ive just been feeling so much love in the last 2 weeks and in particularly in the first 50 minutes of the game via texts and verbally. Its a shame the some welsh appear to have a dislike for the anglos whilst the anglos just love, adore and admire the welsh.

Biltong wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I disagree, against England they raise their game because there is a certain amount of hatred there, its not necessary for the players they are up against but its against everything the Red Rose is.

Its pre-programmed.

I think hate is a bit OTT.

You might have a better argument there if Garteh Thomas hadnt penned the article "Why I hated the English when I was a player" just before the game.

Mind that ths same Gareth Thomas who recently penned the article "Why the Welsh dont really hate the English"

Hate is very much the wrong word, but lets be honest near all nations raise their game when the Rose comes over the hill (except Scotland who tend to roll over for a belly pat).

England have an extremely difficult job now, they rely on Fiji to beat Wales or at the very least deny them a bonus point.

I've seen Australia twice now, and in the RC and i'll be honest I don't see them like everyone else does, that backline looks ridiculous, but the only time their pack has had a contest has been the NZ game, and they were dispatched of comfortably.
Englands pack has what is needed to dull the Australian backline, they were superb for 60 mins v Wales, and as much of a slagging Robshaw and co will get the pack deserved so much more out of that game, the Welsh scrum was on toast, the lineout creaking, and a 10 point lead built, coming into the last 20 the pack tired and Wales bench up front made a big impact, Englands backline who were safe but unspectacular really creaked with even the odd Wales attack, England shouldve been out of sight by 60 mins, but the backline offered little.

RubyGuby wrote:"no idea what its like for the actual players, but everyone one of the wonderful, lovely, kind, english living and english loving welshmen and welshwomen i know here in birmingham, have a wild anger/hate in their eyes, beastlike, when the rugby VS england comes around. Just the way it is."

Yeah and here in England Ive just been feeling so much love in the last 2 weeks and in particularly in the first 50 minutes of the game via texts and verbally. Its a shame the some welsh appear to have a dislike for the anglos whilst the anglos just love, adore and admire the welsh.

i haven't said its a one way street. i love the welsh that i know and i love wales and its inhabitants when i vist, but not during the rugby match. Rivalry is part of the enjoyment of sport. fair play to the welsh for clearly being far more up for it in the final 20min

The only problem with that analysis is that England's lineout was so unsure of itself that after kicking to the corner, in 77th minute, they didn't feel able to throw to the middle or tail of that lineout, making easy pickings for the Welsh pack to shunt them into touch.
A school boy error that shows this team, ( or is it just the captain?), doesn't have the ability to think clearly in a high pressure situation.
Also the Welsh forwards subs lifted the pace of the Welsh game, the English forward subs seemed to lessen the English intensity. The Welsh sniffed blood with 10 to go and England froze or wilted (lack of fitness or lack of experience?)

Mario Ladesmo has the Aussies scrummaging pretty well and their back row will have field day at the breakdown. I can see OZ winning by a 4 try margin rather than the other way round.

Fanster wrote:Hate is very much the wrong word, but lets be honest near all nations raise their game when the Rose comes over the hill (except Scotland who tend to roll over for a belly pat).

England have an extremely difficult job now, they rely on Fiji to beat Wales or at the very least deny them a bonus point.

I've seen Australia twice now, and in the RC and i'll be honest I don't see them like everyone else does, that backline looks ridiculous, but the only time their pack has had a contest has been the NZ game, and they were dispatched of comfortably.
Englands pack has what is needed to dull the Australian backline, they were superb for 60 mins v Wales, and as much of a slagging Robshaw and co will get the pack deserved so much more out of that game, the Welsh scrum was on toast, the lineout creaking, and a 10 point lead built, coming into the last 20 the pack tired and Wales bench up front made a big impact, Englands backline who were safe but unspectacular really creaked with even the odd Wales attack, England shouldve been out of sight by 60 mins, but the backline offered little.

Assuming neither England, Australia or Wales score try bonus points against each other in the 2 remaining games then if England simply beat AUS they will almost certainly qualify.

That would give England 15 points. AUS would be on 10 if they lose <7 meaning they would need a try bonus point to equal England's 15 points and even then England's superior head to head means they would qualify. If they lose by 8 or more then they cannot overtake England's 15 points regardless of what they do.

For Wales to get 15 points they need to get a bonus point either vs. Fiji or Australia.

Not saying its likely but all England really has to do is beat AUS to qualify (assuming they beat Uruguay with a try bonus point.. a bet your mortgage punt). 1st or 2nd isn't really the point now. They just have to qualify.

I stand by the fact that Aus have not been tested yet, even Campo said as much

sensisball wrote:The only problem with that analysis is that England's lineout was so unsure of itself that after kicking to the corner, in 77th minute, they didn't feel able to throw to the middle or tail of that lineout, making easy pickings for the Welsh pack to shunt them into touch.
A school boy error that shows this team, ( or is it just the captain?), doesn't have the ability to think clearly in a high pressure situation.
Also the Welsh forwards subs lifted the pace of the Welsh game, the English forward subs seemed to lessen the English intensity. The Welsh sniffed blood with 10 to go and England froze or wilted (lack of fitness or lack of experience?)

Mario Ladesmo has the Aussies scrummaging pretty well and their back row will have field day at the breakdown. I can see OZ winning by a 4 try margin rather than the other way round.

If you watch the current England much then for these kind of crunch lineouts it almost always goes to Robshaw. He takes the responsibility. Its all fine and dandy a lot of the time but I'd bet Wales were smart enough to know that.

I don't know whats gonna happen against Australia, but every time we play them these days we hear the same story about how whoever the 7 is is gonna make our lives hell. It's been a while since that has happened.