England v Australia, 3 October - The Cool Down Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :


ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA
3 October 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: George Clancy (Ireland) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

43 Played 43
18 Won 24
1 Drawn 1
24 Lost 18
661 Points 907

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Twickenham, London
26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013
Twickenham, London
20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012
Twickenham, London
14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010
Twickenham, London
35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010
Telstra Stadium, Sydney
20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010
Subiaco Oval, Perth
27 – 17 to Australia

7 November 2009
Twickenham, London
9 – 18 to Australia

15 November 2008
Twickenham, London
14 – 28 to Australia

6 October 2007
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France
10 – 12 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 41 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 25 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 33 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 35 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 26 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 40 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 41 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 30 caps)

16. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 25 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 52 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 25 caps)
22. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)

AUSTRALIA

1. Scott Sio (12 Tests)
2. Stephen Moore (c) (97 Tests)
3. Sekope Kepu (58 Tests)
4. Kane Douglas (18 Tests)
5. Rob Simmons (55 Tests)
6. Scott Fardy (25 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (vc) (47 Tests)
8. David Pocock (51 Tests)

9. Will Genia (61 Tests)
10. Bernard Foley (22 Tests)
11. Rob Horne (28 Tests)
12. Matt Giteau (97 Tests)
13. Tevita Kuridrani (25 Tests)
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper (vc) (109 Tests)
15. Israel Folau (34 Tests)

*Reserves to be confirmed

++++++++++++++++++++

A continuation of the original match thread:

[majesticimperialman]

Having been knocked out the Lottery funding for rugby has now been given to the England swimming team - as they know how to get out of a pool....


I like that one, well done.

[protea438]

How long has the Australian coach been in charge ?

This building for 2019 line of thinking has always puzzled me. Yes one cant really expect something in a year but neither 8 years.

[Happytravelling]

Eirebilly, I agree.

More disappointing was his overly conservative bench choices.

After 60 mins you want to step up a gear and either put the nail in the coffin or pull something out of the hat. Yet, they had wrigglesworth instead of care and burgess instead of Slade on the bench.

[Pal Joey]

How long has the Australian coach been in charge ?

This building for 2019 line of thinking has always puzzled me. Yes one cant really expect something in a year but neither 8 years.

Since 22 October 2014 so not even a year yet.

[George Carlin]

How long has the Australian coach been in charge ?

This building for 2019 line of thinking has always puzzled me. Yes one cant really expect something in a year but neither 8 years.

Since 22 October 2014.

[majesticimperialman]

Eirebilly, I agree.

More disappointing was his overly conservative bench choices.

After 60 mins you want to step up a gear and either put the nail in the coffin or pull something out of the hat. Yet, they had wrigglesworth instead of care and burgess instead of Slade on the bench.

I was wondering what Care and Slade have too do to get game time?

[RuggerRadge2611]

My comment on the game and England's exit in general.

I have watched rugby for 20 years, I played it for 16 years. All the years I have watched rugby, I have never seen anything like the kind of pressure England, Robshaw and Lancaster were under.

Every advert, every newspaper, every news report had this "England expects" mentality. I wouldn't be surprised if that played a huge part in England's downfall.

I'll stress again, never in 20 years of watching the sport have I ever seen such pressure on a team.

[Guest]

Don't know, but I would think all home nations hosting a cup would feel that pressure. That particular pressure can't have been any easier in NZ. I think the real pressure for this game was heaped on once England lost to Wales. So the pressure of expectations added to the pressure of it being a knock out game, just to qualify out of the group, would have been huge. In that sense, I would agree with you, RR.

[Rugby Fan]

How long has the Australian coach been in charge ?

This building for 2019 line of thinking has always puzzled me. Yes one cant really expect something in a year but neither 8 years.

I don't think the positions are really comparable. The Wallaby squad Cheika inherited had a lot of experience, and he added more with players like Giteau and Mitchell. It's more like the situation England found themselves in when we ditched Andy Robinson and ended up in the 2007 final.

Lancaster didn't leave a lot of experience out of his squad because most of it was unavailable. That would have been the same for any other coach. I think the only uninjured, experienced player of note left out was Ashton. Possibly Corbs too.

[SecretFly]

I wouldn't share that opinion on this being the toughest psychological pressure WC the English have been in.  
Lots of adverts and things - yes.  But I think a big slice of the pressure was lifted off them actually by virtue of the fact of the group they were in.  I don't think England had too much undue media pressure to perform.  I think the media were far too busy worshipping the actual Pool itself.

POOL A - it'll go down in history.  It has been the star of the show so far. Acres of chat and analysis of the Pool itself, which diluted the amount of energy that was put on England itself. [Australia with their new Rottweiler coach, Wales with the host of injuries, England choosing to try out Farrell after all having virtually told Ford he was the IT factor.  And Fiji putting in a fair good attempt at creating an 'upset' story.]

I think Martin Johnson's outfit had a far more difficult time from the fans and media at the last WC.,

[mikey_dragon]

The ex-Reds coach before Cheika came in was also a good'un. The rumours around his exit stink, but you can't deny that Australia have continued to improve since Cheika, slowly but surely. The ARU seem to have given him more help than previous coaches as well, allowing the likes of Giteau, Mitchell, Mumm and Douglas back in has proven to be a great idea.

[Geordie]

There has been a lot of focus on the coaching team, but what are people's opinions on Robshaw?

He's a hard working player, no doubt about that, but the 7s for all the other top nations have at least one outstanding attribute or facet to their play. Robshaw is neither a dominant tackler, big ball carrier, link man or turnover specialist. He's the classic 6.5, but I don't know if that is effective in the modern game any more.

Do England have better options at 7? Apart from Armitage...

matt Kvesic.  YouTube him.... Outstanding. 22 and captain material.

And you have Clifford a Jwc winner at quins.

From what I saw of him at JWC,he looked a really good prospect but is he getting enough game time at 'quins? There is also that young black guy at Sarries who may only be about 20 (I am sorry I can't remember his name). I think he played lock at the JWC but had moved into the backrow. He looks quite thin but is ultra-dynamic.

One last observation - congratulations to the English fans on here. Unlike other countries (and,yes, I do include some Scotland fans in this) there has been a refreshing lack of bitterness, complaining about the ref etc. Well done guys, you have handled the aftermath with dignity

Mario Itoje. Check every thread on England selections and you'll see him mentioned.

And Clifford was outstanding this season for Quins. Him and Kvesic both stood out. Clifford played for England v the Baa baas and was man of the match I believe but was never even looked at again....typical Lancaster.

[Notch]

My comment on the game and England's exit in general.

I have watched rugby for 20 years,  I played it for 16 years. All the years I have watched rugby, I have never seen anything like the kind of pressure England, Robshaw and Lancaster were under.

Every advert, every newspaper, every news report had this "England expects"  mentality. I wouldn't be surprised if that played a huge part in England's downfall.

I'll stress again,  never in 20 years of watching the sport have I ever seen such pressure on a team.  

The English media do this to their teams in every sport. Its intense, but I think it was even worse for New Zealand when they hosted, however that pressure was justified by sustained success in every other theatre of international rugby. For England hype they might win this wasn't justified, but when has that stopped them? Most of the fans on here have always known whats up. But their gut feelings were not the impression given to the casuals and the general public. England are a decent team but building up expectations to knock them down is a nasty habit of the English media.

[InjuredYetAgain]

My final thought having re-watched some of the game.
Were England's scrummaging problems not caused, at least in part, by the two flankers doing meerkat impressions and leaving their respective props with no weight other than the locks to help them? You would have thought that Rowntree would have picked up on that

[Scottrf]

Not having Nowell on the bench and going Joseph wing with Farrell Barritt centre was pretty awful for me.

Everyone on the bench played one position and the structure was completely disrupted if Joseph or either wing got injured.

[TightHEAD]

Hooper's been cited

[Gooseberry]

Brown folded like a panckae and made a coupel of crucial errors in the game. For a guys whos usually a rock it really hurt England. Not enough on its own to justify such a comprehensive hands down spanking but it does seem in his case at least that the pressure and occassion got to him.

Its hardly anything new for England. Desapite all the talk of pride in the shirt, lectures from randon celebrities and talk of preperation the current England side has not done well under pressure.

That might fall to individuals, but the leaders have to take some responsibility too.

[lostinwales]

Brown folded like a panckae and made a coupel of crucial errors in the game. For a guys whos usually a rock it really hurt England. Not enough on its own to justify such a comprehensive hands down spanking but it does seem in his case at least that the pressure and occassion got to him.

Its hardly anything new for England. Desapite all the talk of pride in the shirt, lectures from randon celebrities and talk of preperation the current England side has not done well under pressure.

That might fall to individuals, but the leaders have to take some responsibility too.

Yep - and I think this starts with Lancaster. When the boss blinks it makes it very difficult for everyone further down the tree not to. I think Lancaster has done a lot of very good things and should hopefully stay as part of the system, but I am beginning to agree with those who think that he has reached a plateau.

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