Who should be next England coach

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

yappysnap wrote:Exactly, a big solid pack good at the basics and physical enough to pressure teams coupled with a 10/12 who can spread the ball wide to electric wings or play what's in front of them.

+1

Once we get that basic formula sorted with a more solid front 5, more balanced back row and backs with strong core skills in place then we can start expanding the game plan a bit.

And fetchers at 7 and to some extent 6

Just to make sure I understand, you want players playing IN their regular positions?
AND
You want players with some ball skills?


Just checking.

Anyone know when this farcical self-affirmatory backslapping session detailed RFU review is supposed to conclude?

doctor_grey wrote:Just to make sure I understand, you want players playing IN their regular positions?
AND
You want players with some ball skills?


Just checking.

I know its a crazy suggestion.

George Carlin wrote:Anyone know when this farcical self-affirmatory backslapping session detailed RFU review is supposed to conclude?

Ive been asking for ages.....WHATS GOING ON???

doctor_grey wrote:Just to make sure I understand, you want players playing IN their regular positions?
AND
You want players with some ball skills?


Just checking.

Nonsense, we want a team of grafters who will never challenge authority. We don't need any of your fancy dan rubbish here thank you.

We're planning on the new kit being an attractive shade of beige to match the team ethics and selections

Talk coming out that Lancaster and his entire team are to be axed and a SH coach of "considerable experience" is to come in.

I can only think of:
Jake White
Eddie Jones

I know it wont happen, but please can Wayne White be involved somewhere?

Even if he's just the one taking the first publicity photo of Jake White in an England tracksuit I honestly reckon he could have a more positive impact on our back play than Farrell has.

I know it wont happen, but please can Wayne White be involved somewhere?

Even if he's just the one taking the first publicity photo of Jake White in an England tracksuit I honestly reckon he could have a more positive impact on our back play than Farrell has.

Whos wayne white?

Wayne Smith

I was too busy being a sarcastic b***end that I just ended up a b***end.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Just to make sure I understand, you want players playing IN their regular positions?
AND
You want players with some ball skills?


Just checking.

Nonsense, we want a team of grafters who will never challenge authority. We don't need any of your fancy dan rubbish here thank you.

You can necer challenge authority.
You will respect authority!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ

GeordieFalcon wrote:Talk coming out that Lancaster and his entire team are to be axed and a SH coach of "considerable experience" is to come in.

I can only think of:
Jake White
Eddie Jones

Before I get my hopes up where'd you see this Geordie?

If they were smart, they'd take Dave Rennie AND Wayne Smith from the Chiefs. Head coach and backs coach sorted immediately.

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Talk coming out that Lancaster and his entire team are to be axed and a SH coach of "considerable experience" is to come in.

I can only think of:
Jake White
Eddie Jones

Before I get my hopes up where'd you see this Geordie?

Same sources that said last week that Burgess had already signed back over to the NRL. I assume they have insider info on quite a few areas.

England do like their grasses don't they?!

George Carlin wrote:If they were smart, they'd take Dave Rennie AND Wayne Smith from the Chiefs. Head coach and backs coach sorted immediately.

And also stop all these stupid guest speaker rubbish! Who the f*&k wants to hear Garry Neville speaking!!!!

If they're going to bring outsiders in....bring in the likes of the following for short workshops - far more worthwhile (just examples):

1) George Smith / Laurie Fisher (Gloucester Coach) for breakdown work
2) Johnny for kicking practice
3) Julian White for some old fashioned front row workshops

etc
etc

No 7&1/2 wrote:England do like their grasses don't they?!

Apparently nothing is secret mate.

Am I right in this king the review reports back on the 17th?

Sorry, 'thinking' was what I was going for

Some are saying the 7th...some are saying the 17th.

As the 17th is a Tuesday probably makes more sense.

It will be interesting to see if my sources are right or not. They were certainly right about Burgess.

Well White was in the news claiming the RFU have approached him twice in the past (?) so you'd expect they would again?

On a serious note and I appreciate many may differ I believe a coach outside of your own nation can be more objective in their appraisal of players from clubs. It can be an incestuous minefield where old rivalries. opinions and social pressure play a part in selection. This is why I always want a non-Welshman in charge of Wales. I'm thinking that the detachment and objective stance that a foreign coach can bring would help England immensely. To not have an English coach is not a "failure" as I sometimes think people assume, its just an advantage IMO to have someone completely removed from the historical and political nuances that often shape and impact on selection.

I hate the fact that foreign coaches are allowed. They should be subject to the same rules as the players.

Excuse the terrible, terrible source, but what do people make of this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-3300754/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-players-snub-World-Rugby-Awards-embarrassing-World-Cup-exit.html

To me, it's an absolute travesty that not one member of the squad or management team turned up to send off the victorious New Zealand and congratulate them on their historic win. Especially on English soil.

As hosts, the Awards night was the opportunity to swallow pride, put embarrassment aside, and unite with other teams to celebrate the sport's world champions. Poor show.

I thought SL was more principled and honourable than that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I hate the fact that foreign coaches are allowed. They should be subject to the same rules as the players.

I've of the same opinion. If you can't beat them though, join them I guess.

Yes absolutely.

I am with you 7.5 I want an English coach.

However I truly think we're in a sticky position. I don't buy that we don't have the players. We have lots of quality players, and the kids coming through.

The English coaches aren't quite ready...but give them another 3-4 years they WILL be.

So for this moment...go for some experienced SH guy to really sort out the on field situation.

Then we'll be in a position to go back to English coaches.

Not quite, as with the players I want stricter controls on how coaches can qualify to coach international teams but we have to play to the rules and get the best. If White is available he's got to be very high on the list no matter what now.

If we were to go with an Englishman I'd honestly want Cockers at the moment. I think given the fact he looks like his hands are tied a bit with recruitment (though that could be just me getting it wrong?) he's done a fantastic job. Looking at the squad they really shouldn't be finishing as high as they are. Wouldn't be a popular or exotic choice though!

We would certain have a healthy disrespect for the Haka if Cockers took the reins!

bluestonevedder wrote:I thought SL was more principled and honourable than that.

Has he gone before? Were all the other Six Nations coaches there? I'd like a bit more context before passing judgement.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not quite, as with the players I want stricter controls on how coaches can qualify to coach international teams but we have to play to the rules and get the best. If White is available he's got to be very high on the list no matter what now.

If we were to go with an Englishman I'd honestly want Cockers at the moment. I think given the fact he looks like his hands are tied a bit with recruitment (though that could be just me getting it wrong?) he's done a fantastic job. Looking at the squad they really shouldn't be finishing as high as they are. Wouldn't be a popular or exotic choice though!

He'd probably make for a good manager. Not sure. But it would be a interesting ride

Cockers.......no!!!!!!

To be honest if England start winning silverwear I don't care where the coach comes from. I hope whoever it is involves some English assistants though, so some sort of succession plan can be put in place.

bluestonevedder wrote:Excuse the terrible, terrible source, but what do people make of this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-3300754/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-players-snub-World-Rugby-Awards-embarrassing-World-Cup-exit.html

To me, it's an absolute travesty that not one member of the squad or management team turned up to send off the victorious New Zealand and congratulate them on their historic win. Especially on English soil.

As hosts, the Awards night was the opportunity to swallow pride, put embarrassment aside, and unite with other teams to celebrate the sport's world champions. Poor show.

I thought SL was more principled and honourable than that.

You're forgiven this one time for reading.........err.....your source.

I agree completely this is a bad look for the RFU. I could envision Lancaster and his coaches may have been quietly told to stay away so questions about their tenure with England don't detract from the event. But the senior players, I think, should be there.

Not saying that is what happened. Just a thought. I agree it looks bad.

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest if England start winning silverwear I don't care where the coach comes from. I hope whoever it is involves some English assistants though, so some sort of succession plan can be put in place.

Like when Andy Robinson took over from Woodward you mean? Amazing succession planning that

yappysnap wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest if England start winning silverwear I don't care where the coach comes from. I hope whoever it is involves some English assistants though, so some sort of succession plan can be put in place.

Like when Andy Robinson took over from Woodward you mean? Amazing succession planning that

Yeah that didn't work out... I guess what I mean is to have people in mind to step up rather than another blind panic when the position becomes vacant.

Anyway, it seems settled now.

The PRL coup takes place on December 4th, when RFU members are out on the town doing early present buying before the crowds build, and then Nigel Craig assumes command. After 20 days of martial law to ensure no unrest, he chooses the England coach on Christmas Day ..... his nephew, wif an immediate pay rise.

So... The results of the review will be revealed to the board on the 17th so expect it to leak to the papers just before

Will be interesting how sanitised it will be.  It will be an obvious mistake to retain Lancaster or any of his team.  The words won't matter, just the actions.  Lancaster is a good man, just not prepared or able at the top level.  Hope it is respectful, and he is offered a good position where he can offer real value.

For me, the people being dismissed must include the backroom team who perpetrated the notions that recently injured nominal starters were perfectly fine for normal duty.  This despite the entire medical world being able to see the effective drop-off from before to after.  That was a joke boardering on professional misconduct:  This does happen to varying degrees in other countries in all sport, but the noose is slowly closing on the most egregious.  That damned word 'transparency' keeps coming up.  More transparency, better care.  Shame that transparency may be the only thing to protect our players.......

I still don't think the coaching team are as anywhere near as rubbish as people are making out. I do believe the game plan change that happened at the World Cup warm ups started was the biggest error.

There is talk that Lancaster will be removed from the head role but stay in the rfu, hope he works within the youth setup again as I think he did a good job there

Do you really think Lancaster 'learnt' during his tenure?

If he learnt so much how did he continue to make such utterly rubbish decisions?

Stop deluding yourself. Lancaster and all his coaches have had their time and can use their experience elsewhere in the game, but not for the national side, at any level.

Realistically we all know the coaching in our game has fallen behind the very best nations and is an issue that must be addressed. Ideally I too would like an english coach, however the cupboard is very bare, maybe Baxter, maybe a few others, Malinder or the Irishman O'Shea, supported by some of our other younger coaches but right now with the way things are (between the clubs and the rfu) I have to agree that a genuine international overseas caliber coach is probably the right decision.

Strategically our game is at a crossroads and this issue is just the most obvious symbol of our failings.

kingelderfield wrote:Do you really think Lancaster 'learnt' during his tenure?

If he learnt so much how did he continue to make such utterly rubbish decisions?

Stop deluding yourself. Lancaster and all his coaches have had their time and can use their experience elsewhere in the game, but not for the national side, at any level.

Realistically we all know the coaching in our game has fallen behind the very best nations and is an issue that must be addressed. Ideally I too would like an english coach, however the cupboard is very bare, maybe Baxter, maybe a few others, Malinder or the Irishman O'Shea, supported by some of our other younger coaches but right now with the way things are (between the clubs and the rfu) I have to agree that a genuine international overseas caliber coach is probably the right decision.

Strategically our game is at a crossroads and this issue is just the most obvious symbol of our failings.

I'm not deluding myself, I just don't fall into the usual England fan trap of believing we are better than we are when things are going well or that we are as Poopie as we are when things are not going so well. So tend to be bit more level headed than most

We have an issue in this country of thinking everyone should fall in their own sword should they not finish at the top - life isn't that simple, sport isn't that simple, so many variables go into it.

I really don't understand why people keep mentioning malinders name, Baxter I agree with though again he has no international experience.

No professional rugby team or player, and especially not England, should settle for anything less than the top.

Mallinder has achieved club and country coaching success.

I agree what your saying Nathan.

I just think regardless of who is in the group...home world cup, and failed to get out of the group is difficult to defend.

I don't necessarily think failure to get out of this group is that bad if you look at the quality of the 3 top teams. What was so disappointing for me was that Lancaster didn't want to, or was persuaded if believe some media reports, keep the game plan of a more open attacking side and went for containment with farrell, Burgess, Barritt.

I'm not someone who believes we quite had the players to be favourites to win or get out of the group but the best chance was to continue looking to the strengths of the backs and parity up front. That's also the reason there's a little doubt in my head over White as I'm still not sure the forwards are good enough for a forward dominated game.

Ah I just think Home WC failure to get out of the group is utterly appalling.

As for the pack...he based his pack on an open running game...then changed his tactics and played a tight defensive game with the same pack. Its not going to work.

A pack with Parling and Lawes in the engine room is NEVER going to be a dominating pack!