Who should be next England coach

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

Media reports are that Michael Chieka has been approached by Jason Leonard about taking over the England job 'in time for the 2019 RWC'.

Both articles I've read stress that Cheika is contracted with Australia until the end of 2017.

Whilst a excellent coach if he is being looked at with the intention of buying him away for Australia then I really wouldn't like the thought process of the RFU. If he is being lined up long term for after 2017 then it wouldn't solve the imminent problem of who will be coaching this group of players in the short term. Either way it is news that worries me more than excites me.

Despite a few players who need to be moved on and a very poor RWC I do believe that the bulk of the current squad could become an excellent side with the right tactics and direction. As such the focus needs to be on getting the right coach for here and now.

Id be amazed if Cheika left Australia for us. He's a very patriotic guy and is really building something with them.

Nope I see it between Jake White and Eddie Jones.

But I might be totally off the ball...so many names have been banded about.

You don't want Jake White

Most don't want Lancaster either Biltong, if that's the two options I'd go with White

Why. What are his main plusses and minuses?

I'd be happy with White, certainly more so than Jones. The approach of Cheika seems bizarre.

I agree GF. I also don't see why Chieka would be enticed away from such a talented squad that quickly.

Whilst I agree White and Jones seem to be front runners I also can't help but feel they may not be RFU favourites. White is very strong willed and doesn't put up with nonsense which is one of the main things the RFU enjoys producing.

Jones on the other hand has jumped from one coaching job to another for years now without really settling. Given the RFU will likely want a long term appointment I can't see this being ideal.

All in all I'm not too sure what to expect!

All in can really do is reiterate my main wishes:

1. Try to beg Wayne Smith into getting involved somehow.

2. Appoint talented English coaches such as Baxter and Gustard in assistant roles.

3. Look to bring coaches from outside the immediate set-up in part time for specialist areas of the game (i.e. Borthwick for the line-out) in order to keep ideas fresh.

Biltong,

Whats your views on Jake White?

When the England job last came up before SL took the  job, i was shouting for Nick Mallet. Does any one think he would be a good choice for the England head coach?

I just think that England are in a (beggers can't be choosers) type situation. As their are "NO" Suitable candidates for the jpb any way.

England aren't beggars we've got some great players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England aren't beggars we've got some great players.

I do agree with you England have some great players....It is coaches (GREAT) coaches we are short of.

Jake White will take English rugby backwards. He is a system and processes man, there is a preconcieved plan for everything, there is no room for innovation, vision, on the fly , instinctive play.

You want to put english rugby back in the box?

Appont White

I thought their would of been some (int) of who the next coach is going to be by now too be honest.

It is surely going to be interesting what the "PANEL" have to say with regards to SL and his coaching staff....Especialy when richie and Mcgeehan was 2 of the post, fans, that put him( SL ) that is in there in the first place.

Biltong wrote:Jake White will take English rugby backwards. He is a system and processes man, there is a preconcieved plan for everything, there is no room for innovation, vision, on the fly , instinctive play.

You want to put english rugby back in the box?

Appont White

That could actually be a very good thing for the English team, especially for their pack. In fact I think they would be a much better side with that sort of coaching. However, would he be willing to work with an attack coach with more creative attacking intent? To have a structured game, but with the flair outside to capitalise on that dominance?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Biltong wrote:Jake White will take English rugby backwards. He is a system and processes man, there is a preconcieved plan for everything, there is no room for innovation, vision, on the fly , instinctive play.

You want to put english rugby back in the box?

Appont White

That could actually be a very good thing for the English team, especially for their pack. In fact I think they would be a much better side with that sort of coaching. However, would he be willing to work with an attack coach with more creative attacking intent? To have a structured game, but with the flair outside to capitalise on that dominance?

Well he worked with Eddie Jones in 2007, so I suppose he would.

Isnt that how Woodward played the game.

Rigid powerful disciplined pack, but then with a bit of flair outside to score tries.

Think that suits England - if we still have those types of forwards....

Another Englishman would be Dave Ellis, ex France defence coach and currently with Lyon and Tonga

Foreign coaches also there's Robbie Deans (currently in Japan) and Ewan McKenzie (not sure if he's coaching any more).

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt that how Woodward played the game.

Rigid powerful disciplined pack, but then with a bit of flair outside to score tries.

Think that suits England - if we still have those types of forwards....

Woodward managed that because he had a powerful take no Poopie leadership team in the forwards though, guys that liked confrontation and just laying into the opposition and would expect that of the other players.

We don't have any Dallaglios, Johnsons or Thompsons any more though.

You have to admire Stuart Barnes' sense of humour, but Fozzie and Richie in the English coaching set up would go down like a cup of cold sick.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/73278412/English-rugby-should-chase-Ian-Foster-and-Richie-McCaw-Stuart-Barnes

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt that how Woodward played the game.

Rigid powerful disciplined pack, but then with a bit of flair outside to score tries.

Think that suits England - if we still have those types of forwards....

Woodward managed that because he had a powerful take no Poopie leadership team in the forwards though, guys that liked confrontation and just laying into the opposition and would expect that of the other players.

We don't have any Dallaglios, Johnsons or Thompsons any more though.

That's true...but no reason why we cant develop some new ones....

You don't employ Jake White and then set about asking him to change the way he coaches. Either you appoint him and give him carte blanche - which I don't think would be a good idea - or you look elsewhere.

Can we come up with a list of genuine options?

I mean people like Chieka etc are never going to leave their current post...and not for the arch rivals England!

Something like:
Jake White
Eddie Jones - Is he the type to stay long term?
Mallinder?
Dave Rennie????
Wayne Smith????

Who else is a genuine option? Any other S15 coaches?
Any other English Coaches?

As I said above Ewan McKenzie and Robbie Deans are two potentials, with recent top level experience and proven track records.

Dave Ellis wanted to be defence coach for England but Lancaster went with Farrell

Cockers. Miles better than Malinder.Baxter. O'Shea.

So:
Jake White
Eddie Jones
Cockerill
Mallinder
Ewan McKenzie
Robbie Deans
Dave Rennie
Wayne Smith

Dave Ellis (Defence Coach)
Paul Gustard (Defence Coach) ??

Jake White - Has been keen on the job for a while but is he the type the RFU will like and does he employ a game plan conducive with our current players?

Eddie Jones - I doubt he would stay long term personally.

Mallinder - If we are getting rid of Bomber due to a lack of International experience then Mallinder would be an ironic replacement. There are also question marks over whether he can employ game plans other than the power game.

Dave Rennie - He would be my first choice as he would have a good shout of getting Smith on board. I can't see him leaving Chiefs however. He is widely reported as a patriotic and loyal man who will have an eye on joining the NZ staff when possible. The Chiefs have also seen all the back room staff below him and a few senior players leave since last season. He would be unlikely to want to add to that turn around.

Wayne Smith - One of the best minds in rugby who would be a credit to any coaching set-up. Sadly he seems set on taking a year out of rugby after the RWC.

Other names mentioned include:

Rassie Erasmus - He has an impressive record of turning sides around but is likely next in line for the SA job if Meyer goes.

Mallet - I would rather not take on a head coach who has been 'retired' from rugby since 2011.

Rob Baxter - Massively respected by most for his work at Exeter. However he lacks International coaching experience just the same as Bomber and Mallinder. Would make an excellent forwards coach IMO.

Shaun Edwards - An excellent defense coach but not the greatest record as head coach - or much experience in the role. He would be an excellent acquisition as defence coach if we want International experience in the back room staff. It would require him wanting a fresh challenge however.

I don't actually see the issue in not having international coaching experience.

My concern is that they have proven top level (club or S15 etc) level experience.

Lancaster didn't have that did he? How long was he Saxons coach and who had he coached before?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't actually see the issue in not having international coaching experience.

My concern is that they have proven top level (club or S15 etc) level experience.

Lancaster didn't have that did he? How long was he Saxons coach and who had he coached before?

Leeds wasn't it?

Its back to the old problem in that the requirements for a decent international coach are different from those of a top club coach, and its hard to work out who has the right ability to be the best at international level

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't actually see the issue in not having international coaching experience.

My concern is that they have proven top level (club or S15 etc) level experience.

Lancaster didn't have that did he? How long was he Saxons coach and who had he coached before?

I would agree that it isn't an absolute requirement for the top job but I do feel that significant International experience, in successful set-ups is needed somewhere in the coaching team.

Hence why I would be delighted to have someone like Wayne Smith on board as assistant coach. It's also a factor in why I would be happy to have Shaun Edwards on board as defence coach - although Gustard is also a very good candidate.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't actually see the issue in not having international coaching experience.

My concern is that they have proven top level (club or S15 etc) level experience.

Lancaster didn't have that did he? How long was he Saxons coach and who had he coached before?

I would agree that it isn't an absolute requirement for the top job but I do feel that significant International experience, in successful set-ups is needed somewhere in the coaching team.

Hence why I would be delighted to have someone like Wayne Smith on board as assistant coach. It's also a factor in why I would be happy to have Shaun Edwards on board as defence coach - although Gustard is also a very good candidate.

I don't understand this thinking. England are a top rugby country with ambition to be the best so why get a good club coach and let them learn on the job? Spend the money and go and get the best international coach available. Then put great club coaches in the management team so they can cut their teeth alonside proven international experience. That way England can build something of a succession plan.

offload wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't actually see the issue in not having international coaching experience.

My concern is that they have proven top level (club or S15 etc) level experience.

Lancaster didn't have that did he? How long was he Saxons coach and who had he coached before?

I would agree that it isn't an absolute requirement for the top job but I do feel that significant International experience, in successful set-ups is needed somewhere in the coaching team.

Hence why I would be delighted to have someone like Wayne Smith on board as assistant coach. It's also a factor in why I would be happy to have Shaun Edwards on board as defence coach - although Gustard is also a very good candidate.

I don't understand this thinking.  England are a top rugby country with ambition to be the best so why get a good club coach and let them learn on the job?  Spend the money and go and get the best international coach available. Then put great club coaches in the management team so they can cut their teeth alonside proven international experience.  That way England can build something of a succession plan.  

There isn't a top international coach that seems a great fit unfortunately offload!

White has an excellent record but has an inflexible game plan which is unlikely to suit the current group of players England have.

Eddie Jones has jumped from job to job for years without sticking anywhere long - we want a long term solution preferably.

Nick Mallet has been 'retired' for 4 years.

Wayne Smith is an wonderful coach but reportedly isn't interested in a top job and stated long before the RWC that he wanted a year away from rugby following the tournament.

If we could get Smith then fantastic. If not then going after an 'international coach' purely for the sake of it if they don't fit the bill would be poor planning IMO.

What was Cheika before he was an International coach?

Lingerie salesman and Rugby League player.

England need a coach who has had recent success in coaching at international level. I couldn't put it more simpler than that. Anyone else is a gamble and we've had too many gambles and lost recently.

To me, Eddie Jones fits the bill nicely. He showed great coaching ability in getting a lightweight side like Japan to beat the Boks. He focussed on their speed, skill and agility. With England I would expect him to find our natural strengths and focus on those and not try to copy other nations.

englandglory4ever wrote:England need a coach who has had recent success in coaching at international level. I couldn't put it more simpler than that. Anyone else is a gamble and we've had too many gambles and lost recently.

Such as selecting Sam Burgess?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:England need a coach who has had recent success in coaching at international level. I couldn't put it more simpler than that. Anyone else is a gamble and we've had too many gambles and lost recently.

Such as selecting Sam Burgess?

Sam didn't do anything wrong for England. Its Bath who fxxked him up not England. Burgess and Slade put Ireland away quite comfortably. Its a shame they weren't tried again.

Got to feel some sympathy for Sam, now that hes safely back at Redfern, hes probably thinking everyone in Rugby Union is completely mad.

Makes one wonder if Tuilagi under a new coach may not appear again in Englands midfield?

Why wouldn't he as long as he's not in France its a safe bet.

A new coach would have to get hold of him and persuade him not to go beating up members of the constabulary or go diving into the Thames.

Right.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Lingerie salesman and Rugby League player.

Exactly. Perfect unity of purpose.

Dear god is no one else bored of the feckin Sam Burgess Story now!!!!!?????

Interesting to see that Josh Lewsey is leaving the WRU in January.

He won't be involved in the coaching set-up but could take a back room role at the RFU. It would be a position I would welcome him to with open arms as I can't imagine him putting up with too much of the corporate nonsense.

aucklandlaurie wrote:A new coach would have to get hold of him and persuade him not to go beating up members of the constabulary or go diving  into the Thames.

A new coach will have to hope his groin is right and that he can get back to the level of his performances in the dim and distant past when he used to be a rugby player. Lets wait til he's back playing and smashing up defenses for fun again (for a decent run of games too) before considering him anywhere near England. I really hope he does get back to his best but appreciate it could be a while.

And I don't know about the Thames but his diving exploits relate to NZ.

aucklandlaurie wrote:A new coach would have to get hold of him and persuade him not to go beating up members of the constabulary or go diving  into the Thames.

When did he do those?

I think Manu needs to

1) Sort his injury problem out first and foremost.
2) Get back to playing week in week out for Leicester at a high level, like we expect.

aucklandlaurie wrote:A new coach would have to get hold of him and persuade him not to go beating up members of the constabulary or go diving  into the Thames.

Yeah because he beat them up.... Or jumped into the Thames...

I don't think any coach is going to stop Tuilagi being an idiot, can they make him less of an idiot though?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think any coach is going to stop Tuilagi being an idiot, can they make him less of an idiot though?

Yeah- next time bunny ears behind the police (wo)men - push Cameron instead...

https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/17/20/11/34/11988411.jpg

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