QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October

First topic message reminder :

   
IRELAND v ARGENTINA

18 October 2015
KO: 13:00 BST (UTC+01)
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Ref: Jerome Garcès (France)
ARs: Romain Poite (France)and Chris Pollock (NZ)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
10 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 15
331 Points 283

B. Recent Form

14 June 2014
Estadio Monumental José Fierro, Tucumán
17 – 23 to Ireland

7 June 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia
17 – 29 to Ireland

24 November 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 24 to Ireland

28 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
29 – 9 to Ireland

22 November 2008
Croke Park, Dublin
17 – 3 to Ireland

30 September 2007
Parc des Princes, Paris, France
30 – 15 to Argentina

2 June 2007
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
16 – 0 to Argentina

C. TEAMS:

IRELAND


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;
16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)

ARGENTINA


15. Joaquin Tuculet
14. Santiago Cordero
13. Matías Moroni
12. Juan Martín Hernández
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Martín Landajo
1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Agustín Creevy (c)
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Guido Petti
5. Tomás Lavanini
6. Pablo Matera
7. Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
8. Leonardo Senatore

Replacements:
16. Julián Montoya
17. Lucas Noguera
18. Juan Pablo Orlandi
19. Matías Alemanno
20. Facundo Isa
21. Tomás Cubelli
22. Jerónimo De La Fuente
23. Lucas González Amorosino

Unfortunately I haven't seen as much of Argentina as I'd have liked... there always seemed to be other things to do when they were playing. But from some of the stuff I've seen, they might have an Achilles heel of having the uber confidence to run from virtually anywhere, including close to their own tryline.
Catch them out there playing that game, isolate them, turn them over aggressively and the pickings might be tasty.

ME-109 wrote:I would be surprised if Joe plays Henderson in the backrow given he did not give him any game time there in the warmups or the first couple of games. I feel he will go for a specialist backrow and go with Murphy or Ruddock. But given the extent of the injuries and possible bans he might. Not the way he operates though.

The problem is if we don't go with Henderson at 6, who do we have in the back row who can break a tackle? We were really very dependent on O'Brien in that area. Where we play Henderson really depends on where we need his ball carrying the most. At lock he has been doing a great job of carrying around the fringes or one pass out, but as well as using all our forwards one pass out from the ruck we've occasionally been using O'Mahony and O'Brien as carriers in wider channels and I think he could do some serious damage in those areas. Henry is highly effective at securing the breakdown so with him and Heaslip I'm not too worried about balance.

That makes sense Notch but this is Joe and the "system" we are talking about. I could see Ruddock starting ahead of Murphy or Henderson. Given the athleticism of the Argentinians a Toner/Henderson 2nd row would be more balanced I believe.

I have just seen another video of the SOB incident. There were no unscheduled medical examinations (ie a finger up the arse) and he was merely held back. I would be honestly surprised if we see him again this tournament even if we win.

SecretFly wrote:Unfortunately I haven't seen as much of Argentina as I'd have liked... there always seemed to be other things to do when they were playing.  But from some of the stuff I've seen, they might have an Achilles heel of having the uber confidence to run from virtually anywhere, including close to their own tryline.  
Catch them out there playing that game, isolate them, turn them over aggressively and the pickings might be tasty.

I've watched most of their games. I really think most pundits are thinking of the Argentina from a couple of years ago in assessing them. They have few stars but they play very cohesively as a team, they look well coached and their experience in the 4N has brought them on leaps and bounds. I think they would be worthy finalists

Exiled Gael wrote:I have just seen another video of the SOB incident. There were no unscheduled medical examinations (ie a finger up the arse) and he was merely held back. I would be honestly surprised if we see him again this tournament even if we win.

Held back where? Shorts or shirt?

TJ wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Unfortunately I haven't seen as much of Argentina as I'd have liked... there always seemed to be other things to do when they were playing.  But from some of the stuff I've seen, they might have an Achilles heel of having the uber confidence to run from virtually anywhere, including close to their own tryline.  
Catch them out there playing that game, isolate them, turn them over aggressively and the pickings might be tasty.

I've watched most of their games.  I really think most pundits are thinking of the Argentina from a couple of years ago in assessing them.  They have few stars but they play very cohesively as a team, they look well coached and their experience in the 4N has brought them on leaps and bounds.  I think they would be worthy finalists

I think they'd be worthy winners and as likely to win as any team in the competition. They absolutely destroyed Tonga and Georgia sides who gave the ABs a tough time and will be a much tougher opposition than France - easily as fearsome in the pack but far more dangerous in the backs.

Apart from NZ I think this is the toughest QF.

I agree Rodders IMO the teams worthy of a final place are NZ, Aus, Argentina and maybe Ireland.

Jordi Murphy may not carry like SOB, but he's no shrinking violet.

Any time he has come in for Ireland I have been impressed.

Best, Heaslip, Murray, Kearney all need to step up to the plate in the leadership stakes.

SecretFly wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:I have just seen another video of the SOB incident. There were no unscheduled medical examinations (ie a finger up the arse) and he was merely held back. I would be honestly surprised if we see him again this tournament even if we win.

Held back where?  Shorts or shirt?

He's barely even held back. A very slight, very soft arm around the side... and then pow! What in God's name was he thinking? Didn't they say we hear back about that this lunch time?

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/bernard-jackman-offers-a-questionable-defence-of-sean-obrien/312329

Henderson's best performances have IMO come when he has a 6 on his back. He has the line breaking momentum of a small asteroid and the pace to back it up when the bust's been made. I agree that it's unlikely Joe will step outside his system but hell I'd love to see Hendo have a go.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:I have just seen another video of the SOB incident. There were no unscheduled medical examinations (ie a finger up the arse) and he was merely held back. I would be honestly surprised if we see him again this tournament even if we win.

Held back where?  Shorts or shirt?

He's barely even held back. A very slight, very soft arm around the side... and then pow! What in God's name was he thinking? Didn't they say we hear back about that this lunch time?

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/bernard-jackman-offers-a-questionable-defence-of-sean-obrien/312329

The video evidence on the gif in the above article is pretty clear. Pape's hand goes onto SOB's shorts then slides up over his side. No holding back, no 'iffy' interference (no space in those shorts for a hand to get in anyways) just a guy who is probably just too hyped up at that moment.

rapidsnowman wrote:Jordi Murphy may not carry like SOB, but he's no shrinking violet.

Any time he has come in for Ireland I have been impressed.

Best, Heaslip, Murray, Kearney all need to step up to the plate in the leadership stakes.

Best, who always gives his all, old goer Heaslip and Kearney have been doing a great job at the helm as leaders.  Kearney especially has roared back into life this WC.  We needed him back on form and he's not let us down so far.  There is a drive in his attitude that brings a confidence to all the players ahead of him.  Impressed with him so far.  
Yep, they all need to keep it up now.  One more game of "We're NOT going to lose this!" attitude and then chance of the day takes over from there.  Teams left in the mix after next weekend will all be feeling the strain in the semis.  We shouldn't feel we'd be the only ones living on the edge if we get there.

But this is the defining game for Joe Schmidt and his tenure - not the French game.  This one coming.  And, if he's the planner we all know him to be, he'll have been thinking about it a long time.

lostinwales wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:I have just seen another video of the SOB incident. There were no unscheduled medical examinations (ie a finger up the arse) and he was merely held back. I would be honestly surprised if we see him again this tournament even if we win.

Held back where?  Shorts or shirt?

He's barely even held back. A very slight, very soft arm around the side... and then pow! What in God's name was he thinking? Didn't they say we hear back about that this lunch time?

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/bernard-jackman-offers-a-questionable-defence-of-sean-obrien/312329

The video evidence on the gif in the above article is pretty clear. Pape's hand goes onto SOB's shorts then slides up over his side. No holding back, no 'iffy' interference (no space in those shorts for a hand to get in anyways) just a guy who is probably just too hyped up at that moment.

Perhaps Pape somehow knew that the tullow tank had a wind up mechanism built-in like my old 80's He-man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh-rFAU6d3s

To me that looks like a classic windup to get SOB to lose his temper
Pape ( grabbing SOBs arse) "hey pretty boy- nice arse - how much for a shot at it?"

Pete330v2 wrote:Henderson's best performances have IMO come when he has a 6 on his back. He has the line breaking momentum of a small asteroid and the pace to back it up when the bust's been made. I agree that it's unlikely Joe will step outside his system but hell I'd love to see Hendo have a go.

Pete that may have been true a few months ago but his best performances have been in this WC and the warm ups and he hasn't worn the 6 yet

I'll trust Joe's decisions (in everything except calling up McCarthy... wtf).

Ruddock could come in and go straight in front of Jordi. Only a broken arm had him out of the squad and he got a start in the last Leinster game (as Conan picked up a knock in the warm-up).

I think the Healy/McGrath combo has been working well. They pull the starter after 55-60 minutes because the replacement is good enough to take on major minutes, it's a class position to be in.

Any word on SOB?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'll trust Joe's decisions (in everything except calling up McCarthy... wtf).

I'd assume (and hope) that's he's only there for training requirements. If he's ever picked, he'll need to up his game and keep his head.

I missed the France match as I was out of the country (will watch it later) but it feels like I've arrived back into some kind of twilight zone. The word online is will Ireland have enough to stop Argentina. Double 6 nations champions vs the bottom team in the rugby championship. Should be an Ireland win despite the injuries.

SA were bottom in the rugby championship.

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'll trust Joe's decisions (in everything except calling up McCarthy... wtf).

I'd assume (and hope) that's he's only there for training requirements.  If he's ever picked, he'll need to up his game and keep his head.

I'd hope so as well. But if Hendo is put in a backrow as mentioned here, then Ryan and Toner would be starting and you'd almost have to have McCarthy as the lock replacement on the bench (this seriously scares me)

.... unless you would say Hendo cover lock and put an extra backrow option (say Jordi and Ruddock) on the bench moving Hendo into a lock position should it be required to take off Ryan or Toner. (feels like a decent option)

I'd have Touhy and Foley ahead of McCarthy. The lad Ben Marshall went from Leinster to Connacht (I'd have him ahead of McCarthy). The kid Ross Molony has done better than McCarthy in the few games so far this season. He'd be way down the depth chart (and the only direction he will be going is further down the depth chart for the rest of his career).

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'll trust Joe's decisions (in everything except calling up McCarthy... wtf).

I'd assume (and hope) that's he's only there for training requirements.  If he's ever picked, he'll need to up his game and keep his head.

I'd hope so as well.  But if Hendo is put in a backrow as mentioned here, then Ryan and Toner would be starting and you'd almost have to have McCarthy as the lock replacement on the bench (this seriously scares me)

.... unless you would say Hendo cover lock and put an extra backrow option (say Jordi and Ruddock) on the bench moving Hendo into a lock position should it be required to take off Ryan or Toner. (feels like a decent option)

I'd have Touhy and Foley ahead of McCarthy.  The lad Ben Marshall went from Leinster to Connacht (I'd have him ahead of McCarthy). The kid Ross Molony has done better than McCarthy in the few games so far this season.  He'd be way down the depth chart (and the only direction he will be going is further down the depth chart for the rest of his career).

Ah but he kept the Australian starting second row out of the team so he must be good.

There must be something there.... some angle that Schmidt and his coaches like.

Golden wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'll trust Joe's decisions (in everything except calling up McCarthy... wtf).

I'd assume (and hope) that's he's only there for training requirements.  If he's ever picked, he'll need to up his game and keep his head.

I'd hope so as well.  But if Hendo is put in a backrow as mentioned here, then Ryan and Toner would be starting and you'd almost have to have McCarthy as the lock replacement on the bench (this seriously scares me)

.... unless you would say Hendo cover lock and put an extra backrow option (say Jordi and Ruddock) on the bench moving Hendo into a lock position should it be required to take off Ryan or Toner. (feels like a decent option)

I'd have Touhy and Foley ahead of McCarthy.  The lad Ben Marshall went from Leinster to Connacht (I'd have him ahead of McCarthy). The kid Ross Molony has done better than McCarthy in the few games so far this season.  He'd be way down the depth chart (and the only direction he will be going is further down the depth chart for the rest of his career).

Ah but he kept the Australian starting second row out of the team so he must be good.

Based on my memories of watching Kane live at the RDS and his attitude and application while he was wearing blue, I could have kept him out of the starting team (and that would be the shortest lock ever).

I've been thinking off and on, considering how absolutely dreadful the Leinster boys were playing last year - I mean at times looking like they didn't even know what a rugby ball was - did they get the impression that MOC was there to spy?  Did they turn out the lights on MOC?  Because for sure, Cheika would have been sounding MOC out since he went back to Australia - "these Irish boys, are they as absolute shoite as they're looking right now or is it an act?"
What could MOC say?  He wouldn't have a bloody clue based on some of the junk that passed as rugby last year.
And MOC still walks into an 'attack coach' role back home?  So even the Aussies don't seem to have believed it was him.

SecretFly wrote:I've been thinking off and on, considering how absolutely dreadful the Leinster boys were playing last year - I mean at times looking like they didn't even know what a rugby ball was - did they get the impression that MOC was there to spy?  Did they turn out the lights on MOC?  Because for sure, Cheika would have been sounding MOC out since he went back to Australia - "these Irish boys, are they as absolute shoite as they're looking right now or is it an act?"
What could MOC say?  He wouldn't have a bloody clue based on some of the junk that passed as rugby last year.
And MOC still walks into an 'attack coach' role back home?  So even the Aussies don't seem to have believed it was him.

It's a bit off topic but I'll bite a bit on this. MOC just wasn't ready for a head coach role. Everyone knows the parameters that a coach has to work within in the Irish provincial setup. As soon as he was in he started to put out excuses for why things weren't going to work. He also didn't seem to be able to cope with pressure situations, quite often reverting to an ultra conservative, trust the experienced players, lock it down and defend kind of philosophy. That is why Boss was left in there when Luke McGrath was clearly the better option, why Gopperth would be starting 10 and Madigan move from bench to 12, etc. But he still won some trophies and was reaching the late stages of the european competitions it was really quality of squad than tactics that was getting the team that far. The most the team ever managed to play was 30 minutes of expansive rugby at any time, then you'd see MOC get nervous and put the word out through the water-carriers to shut down the attack and start defending (ending up clinging to leads towards the final 10 minutes of games). I wonder if he gets another head coaching role in 2-3 seasons time will he actually have learnt from his time here or was it a case that he doesn't have the temperament for the pressure in the top position?

I still genuinely think there was a bit of subterfuge going on with players last year (not just in Leinster either).

Take your meds fly

I'm never too far wrong, ME.
You boys believe too many of the journo headlines.

So it's Garces then. Fairly happy with that. Even though he robbed Ulster in the HEC, he isn't a bad ref. Not that I've forgiven him.

French ...with a bad memory of what O'Brien did to his Pape.....

SecretFly wrote:French ...with a bad memory of what O'Brien did to his Pape.....

This is true. We will have to get Henderson to accidentally run over him at the start. Should be enough

SecretFly wrote:I'm never too far wrong, ME.  
You boys believe too many of the journo headlines.

Fly...you're a legend in your own mind...

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'm never too far wrong, ME.  
You boys believe too many of the journo headlines.

Fly...you're a legend in your own mind...

I'm a bit of a cross between the cuddly softness of Murray Kinsella  (oh the boys 'ill be drooling in here again when I mention his name) - and the hard-edged knowing stubble of Gerry 'Crystal Balls' Thornley

So yeah, spot on DOD.

Given how long the hearing us going on the IRFU must have brought in one of the GAA lads. Would get him off for sure.

No news is good news right?

Is Joe Brolly over in England at the minute? Must be telling the citing officer that there needs to be 4 appeal processes and given he lives in Dublin that he should be allowed to play until the process is finished in 4 weeks time

It is silly at this point....

It strikes me more as a deals-being-done than people still pondering over an incident that must have been talked to death at this stage.

So - what's best for the World Cup must be the sticking point here.

That or Schmidt won't stop pleading and they can't get him out of the office to write their report........

Have any of the citings been reported yet?

Who knows what the delay is, but if it's stuck on SOB, then I would think the panel probably wanted to ban him for at least 2 games.

They have released footage of the citing commission

https://imgur.com/gallery/QEfecka/

Suspended for one week

LONDON, 13 Oct – Seán O’Brien (Ireland) has been suspended for one week for striking contrary to Law 10.4(a).

Following a review of available camera angles, O’Brien was cited by independent Citing Commissioner Dougie Hunter (Scotland) under Law 10.4(a) for striking with the hand, arm or fist during the Rugby World Cup 2015 Pool D match against France at the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, on 11 October.

O’Brien admitted committing an act of foul play and therefore the independent Judicial Officer Terry Willis (Australia) upheld the citing on the basis that the player had committed an act of foul play contrary to Law 10.4(a).

Willis conducted a detailed review of all the available evidence, including all camera angles and additional evidence from the player and submissions from his legal representative.

With respect to the sanction, the Judicial Officer deemed the act of foul play merited a low-end entry point of two weeks. The Judicial Officer considered that there were no aggravating factors. The Judicial Officer took into account compelling mitigating factors including O’Brien’s conduct prior to and at the hearing, his remorse, good character and clean disciplinary record, and reduced the suspension to a period of one week.

In the context of the Rugby World Cup tournament a week equates to one match. The suspension takes effect immediately, therefore O’Brien is suspended for Ireland’s quarter-final match against Argentina on Sunday, 18 October, 2015. He is free to resume playing on 19 October, 2015.

The player has 48 hours in which to appeal from receipt of the written decision.

The written decision will be published here as soon as it is available.

SOBSUSPENDED

Best case scenario for us really.

Notch wrote:Best case scenario for us really.

Yes it is, although I think it was the fair result.

Hopefully we get passed Argentina, and SOB can return rested.

Bosch out for one week as well...

Wonder what Ford and Gray said..they got 3 weeks each.

Great news for Ireland. Hopefully a fit and ready SOB for Semi.

Notch wrote:Best case scenario for us really.

Bearing in mind he should have been sent off right at the start of the game and went on to win MoTM - yes. If spotted he could now have been missing a q/f against NZ

Notch wrote:Best case scenario for us really.

Best for the team.
For us on 606 a bit of a disasters as chunky will be whipping himself I to a paranoid conspiracy frenzy ready to to unleash his "proof" on us all

Yes, lucky for us it wasn't spotted, but the fact that it wasn't spotted shouldn't influence the decision of the panel.

carpet baboon wrote:

Notch wrote:Best case scenario for us really.

Best for the team.
For us on 606 a bit of a disasters as chunky will be whipping himself I to a paranoid conspiracy frenzy ready to to unleash his "proof" on us all

I can just imagine the froth bubbling over I'm sure World Rugby will receive a letter of complaint.