QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October

by **George Carlin** Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:23 am

First topic message reminder :

IRELAND v ARGENTINA

18 October 2015
KO: 13:00 BST (UTC+01)
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Ref: Jerome Garcès (France)
ARs: Romain Poite (France)and Chris Pollock (NZ)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
10 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 15
331 Points 283

B. Recent Form

14 June 2014
Estadio Monumental José Fierro, Tucumán
17 – 23 to Ireland

7 June 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia
17 – 29 to Ireland

24 November 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 24 to Ireland

28 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
29 – 9 to Ireland

22 November 2008
Croke Park, Dublin
17 – 3 to Ireland

30 September 2007
Parc des Princes, Paris, France
30 – 15 to Argentina

2 June 2007
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
16 – 0 to Argentina

C. TEAMS:

IRELAND
QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 17 Caitri10

QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 17 Caitri10

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;
16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)

ARGENTINA
QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 17 Mia-ma11

QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 17 Mia-ma11

15. Joaquin Tuculet
14. Santiago Cordero
13. Matías Moroni
12. Juan Martín Hernández
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Martín Landajo
1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Agustín Creevy (c)
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Guido Petti
5. Tomás Lavanini
6. Pablo Matera
7. Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
8. Leonardo Senatore

Replacements:
16. Julián Montoya
17. Lucas Noguera
18. Juan Pablo Orlandi
19. Matías Alemanno
20. Facundo Isa
21. Tomás Cubelli
22. Jerónimo De La Fuente
23. Lucas González Amorosino

by **Notch** Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:25 pm

ME-109 wrote:We are a lot better now?????????

But we just lost by 23 points to a team we havent lost too in years?

Yeah, I definitely think we are a lot better than we were four years ago. If you don't like it, then, well, thats too bad. I've went into some detail about why I think the game panned out the way it did. I wouldn't be expecting us to lose too many more games by that margin. That was the best Argentina performance I've seen. Can't be compared to the games we've played against them on Summer tours or in the autumn. They were a different beast today.

by Sin é Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:25 pm

Notch wrote:

I feel like the loss of Payne and Sexton was massive organisationally in our back line.

You are codding yourself then. Ireland did well last week without the pair of them.

The problem area was the backrow. Murphy & Henry just not up to standard. Henderson should have been played at 6 with Ryan in the 2nd row.

by Student-A1 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:26 pm

catchweight wrote:Kidneys Ireland would have got tonked by Argentina as well. Which is kind of the point. I dont think this Ireland team is any better than it was at its best under Kidney and plays a similar brand of kick and chase, set piece oriented rugby.

Agree with this comment; Ireland seemed to be stuck with the Wales mantra of if Plan A fails stick with Plan A. Well actually most the NH in terms of being unable to adapt to what is happening in front of them almost seeming to want to have a Bluetooth earpiece to the coach where they can be instructed what to do. Why Ireland were unable to realise that their defensive line was completely wrong is a mystery.

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:26 pm

And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:27 pm

DK got rightly criticised previously although in many ways over the top and in a personal way. The bar is still at the same level when it comes to Joe and the criticism is in no way over the top. It's desperately disappointing to lose I actually believed we would make it at least to a SF. Even with the missing players I thought we had enough for Argentina but the rugby they played today was just outstanding and executed to such a high level. This from a country that couldnt pass the ball outside the OH not to long ago...

by catchweight Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:28 pm

Notch wrote:
catchweight wrote:Kidneys Ireland would have got tonked by Argentina as well. Which is kind of the point. I dont think this Ireland team is any better than it was at its best under Kidney and plays a similar brand of kick and chase, set piece oriented rugby.

Fair enough. I think we are a lot better now- in that everyone knows their role and there is no confusion. There is a clarity of purpose in attack and defence. And there is always a perceptible game plan.

This was, to be fair, probably the worst game under Schmidt and the one game you could say our defensive game plan was seriously open to question. And I think the fact that it is passive has been pointed out before; Argentina exploited it. But we played quite well in periods to get back into the match; we weren't even that bad overall, Argentina were great. I just feel the intensity Argentina brought was unplayable at the start and we were shell-shocked. We weren't playing at anywhere near the same intensity, so we failed to get across in defence anywhere near the speed they were playing at. This left us short-handed in wide channels. In attack, they killed us with the blitz defence. We were predictable in the face of ferocious tackling. We couldn't get our phase play going- and Madigan didn't have the awareness or ability to spot what their line speed was doing to us and exploit it with good territorial kicking or just putting the ball behind them with a few delicate chips or grubbers.

I feel like the loss of Payne and Sexton was massive organisationally in our back line. Those are the two guys who organise the players around them and when things aren't working in defence or attack they are the ones who might be communicating it. Not having that was massive. The losses of key leaders, the performance of Argentina, and the thrown together look of our outside backs was a perfect storm.

Don't think there's any reason to lose faith in this Irish set-up though. Given how much we've improved there is no reason we can't continue that. Do think we have a ceiling on our improvement which comes from how the game is organised. One criticism is, why can't we play two big games in a row? Well having the Heineken Cup games scattered throughout the season doesn't help develop that. Playing the Heineken Cup in one nine-game bloc would help develop that tournament mentality you need for the World Cup. Why can't we defend against teams who recycle and move the ball ruthlessly fast like Argentina and New Zealand? We're not going to be able to practice defending that kind of tempo and accuracy against Scotland in a freezing Murrayfield in February when the ball sees plenty of air.

So the whole NH needs to be considering how we can change our system to produce that kind of rugby because right now, it's not being catered for.

I guess it comes it comes down to whther you see improvement or not. As a non Irish neurtal, I dont really. Kidney delivered a grand slam and a more successful WC. Then things went sour. Schmidt is clearly a good coach, but should Ireland suffer a stale 6 nations then I wonder will the honeymoon be over and the same cycle that occured under Kidney start to repeat. To me this looks like same old, same old Ireland.

by carpet baboon Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:28 pm

OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

by ME-109 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:29 pm

Marshes wrote:And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

The problem is we dont have "other" tactics. We play in one way. We are one dimensional. What we need is a coach with a vision not an assistant Headmaster running the Schools senior team.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:30 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:

I feel like the loss of Payne and Sexton was massive organisationally in our back line.

You are codding yourself then. Ireland did well last week without the pair of them.

The problem area was the backrow. Murphy & Henry just not up to standard. Henderson should have been played at 6 with Ryan in the 2nd row.

And Argentina might have scored one less try?

by eirebilly Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:33 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

The problem is we dont have "other" tactics. We play in one way. We are one dimensional. What we need is a coach with a vision not an assistant Headmaster running the Schools senior team.

Did Scotland get the better Clermont coach?

by ME-109 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:

I feel like the loss of Payne and Sexton was massive organisationally in our back line.

You are codding yourself then. Ireland did well last week without the pair of them.

The problem area was the backrow. Murphy & Henry just not up to standard. Henderson should have been played at 6 with Ryan in the 2nd row.

And Argentina might have scored one less try?

Henderson was out on his feet after 50 mins. At 6 he would have been gone after 30. When you think the Argentinian second rows were 22 and 21 (I believe)...and seemed to break the gainline with ease it puts things into perspective. Murphy is what he is...Henry is a good player but................

Who knows what would make a difference. Maybe a No.8 who actually carries (as well as do the unseen work)...a No.10 who didnt pass the ball to our centres which included the Argentinian defender as well. Fast Wings and full back would help. Some basic stuff there.

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:35 pm

Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

I brought up the Wales loss in the last world cup because BOD brought it up a few days ago, blaming Kidney for not having a Plan B (and telling us that Joe Schmidt would never be caught out like that).

Well, he was just caught out - badly.

By the way, after the Australian win at the last world cup, Ireland comprehensively beat Italy. Did you learn anything from the poor performance against Italy this time around or are you completely taken aback at the extent of the loss today (one of our worst ever in a rugby world cup).

He was right, Kidney didn't have a plan B in that game, and when Kidney left the team was a shambles. Maybe wishful thinking on his part regarding Argentina, but he is hardly going to criticise Joe's plans on the eve of RWC 1/4. Equally I don't think we could say the plans for Argentina, France or Italy in this tournament have been anything alike, and we definitely saw a different plan when Sexton came off last weekend too.

I said before the match I think Ireland need to ensure they had the same defensive line speed as against France, or Argentina could really hurt us. It was evident that that was something that hurt us against Italy. Whether that has to do with tactics or execution or fitness I don't know.

by Guest Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:36 pm

ME-109 wrote:We are a lot better now?????????

But we just lost by 23 points to a team we havent lost too in years?

Problem is Argentina are also a lot better now, and played us of the park after having a 10 day break, and changing 10 players to the starting 15.

by **Notch** Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:36 pm

Student-A1 wrote:Why Ireland were unable to realise that their defensive line was completely wrong is a mystery.

It's not that much of a mystery. The two main organisers of said defensive line in the backs were ruled out with injury. Instead of Sexton and Payne we had Madigan and Earls. Elsewhere, O'Mahony- another leader and organiser who defends a lot in the wide channels- was also out, causing more communication issues. The other issue was that Argentina were hitting us with an intensity that gave us little time to reset each phase. Guys like Mike Ross were slow to get around the ruck and into position for the next phase as the ball was spending such little time in the ruck. That has a knock-on effect on the whole defensive line- it meant we weren't fanning out quickly enough and were caught too narrow.

Finally we were much too passive and this is really the one legitimate question that the coaching staff has to answer- well they don't really because Les Kiss is off now and we'll have a new defensive coach soon, but still- we really have to wonder why are we so passive in defence? It allowed Sanchez and Hernandez loads of time to assess their options and pick their passes. Players did realise this, but they started trying to compensate in ones and twos, not as a team, with some players shooting up and leaving dog-legs.

It was an incredibly good performance from Argentina, and I'm not at all ashamed by the scoreline or the result. Nor am I overly upset with the approach to the game or the performance of the Irish coaches and players. We will continue to improve after the WC is over I think. But wider changes need to happen to get us playing that kind of rugby.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:39 pm

ME-109 wrote:DK got rightly criticised previously although in many ways over the top and in a personal way. The bar is still at the same level when it comes to Joe and the criticism is in no way over the top. It's desperately disappointing to lose I actually believed we would make it at least to a SF. Even with the missing players I thought we had enough for Argentina but the rugby they played today was just outstanding and executed to such a high level. This from a country that couldnt pass the ball outside the OH not to long ago...

Yeah. They got dropped into the Piranha pool and had to quickly learn how to swim fast and evasively to just about survive.
It's taken them four years but instincts take over and you adapt, and what once seemed so difficult becomes second nature because it's actually practiced.

No Northern Hemisphere side should study any other side but New Zealand...pull them apart, analyse them and bloody well mimic it and perfect some of it each week in training. It doesn't matter whether your opponent on the weekend is Scarlets, Ospreys, Glasgow, Scotland, France or Wales. The blueprint for best practice in rugby has plenty of recorded footage. Train hard to compete with that and who cares who you meet at the weekend.

The problem arrives when tunnel vision happens again and coaches become obsessed with the team they have next week. Zebre. How to beat Zebre on the trot. That'll do for this week, pig Wink

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:40 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

The problem is we dont have "other" tactics. We play in one way. We are one dimensional. What we need is a coach with a vision not an assistant Headmaster running the Schools senior team.

ME I agree, I've said before that when plan A isn't working for Ireland all we do is try plan A harder, it is incredibly frustrating. The thing now is as that has been exposed and we start the 2019 cycle, how we respond. And I think Schmidt has the capacity to bring about the change required.

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:40 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

The problem is we dont have "other" tactics. We play in one way. We are one dimensional. What we need is a coach with a vision not an assistant Headmaster running the Schools senior team.

ME I agree, I've said before that when plan A isn't working for Ireland all we do is try plan A harder, it is incredibly frustrating. The thing now is as that has been exposed and we start the 2019 cycle, how we respond. And I think Schmidt has the capacity to bring about the change required.

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:40 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

The problem is we dont have "other" tactics. We play in one way. We are one dimensional. What we need is a coach with a vision not an assistant Headmaster running the Schools senior team.

ME I agree, I've said before that when plan A isn't working for Ireland all we do is try plan A harder, it is incredibly frustrating. The thing now is as that has been exposed and we start the 2019 cycle, how we respond. And I think Schmidt has the capacity to bring about the change required.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:40 pm

Marshes wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

I brought up the Wales loss in the last world cup because BOD brought it up a few days ago, blaming Kidney for not having a Plan B (and telling us that Joe Schmidt would never be caught out like that).

Well, he was just caught out - badly.

By the way, after the Australian win at the last world cup, Ireland comprehensively beat Italy. Did you learn anything from the poor performance against Italy this time around or are you completely taken aback at the extent of the loss today (one of our worst ever in a rugby world cup).

He was right, Kidney didn't have a plan B in that game, and when Kidney left the team was a shambles. Maybe wishful thinking on his part regarding Argentina, but he is hardly going to criticise Joe's plans on the eve of RWC 1/4. Equally I don't think we could say the plans for Argentina, France or Italy in this tournament have been anything alike, and we definitely saw a different plan when Sexton came off last weekend too.

I said before the match I think Ireland need to ensure they had the same defensive line speed as against France, or Argentina could really hurt us. It was evident that that was something that hurt us against Italy. Whether that has to do with tactics or execution or fitness I don't know.

Again the fundamentals are being ignored here..,..Argentina played the ball through the backs with so much depth and a screen to shoot up completely would have been impossible and they would have cut us open down the middle. You are of course ignoring that on three occasions we were just beaten for basic speed on the wings nothing more than that...speed and execution and our inability to do basic tackling....

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:42 pm

eirebilly wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:And when did I say we were not brutally exposed? I said we got our tactics wrong and even with the mitigating factors it is very disappointing. But I'm not quite ready to start drunk-dialling Kidney to play "Baby Come Back" down the phone to him.

The problem is we dont have "other" tactics. We play in one way. We are one dimensional. What we need is a coach with a vision not an assistant Headmaster running the Schools senior team.

Did Scotland get the better Clermont coach?

Glasgow is giving Scotland its fire and defiance, not Cotter. So Townsend is the coach of the moment there in my opinion.

by fa0019 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:44 pm

To be honest any side who lost their top 4 players inc. captain, pivot (inc. kicker) and both flankers it difficult to go into the match and not be impacted. Leadership mattered at 60 mins. Could have been the diff. But injuries happen and generally you win via your 23 not your 15.

Anyhow, anyone else worried that ARG will now become an genuine force in the game? As in potential RWC winner? Their platform will never weaken means when they get some good backs they become super dangerous.
With a SR franchise too it means their players will play in the top club tournament and be available for SH touring rugby. Everyone is going to have to really fight for tier 1 RWC seeding now.

by ME-109 Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:47 pm

The other aspect of criticism DK got (to my mind incorrectly) was that he picked the same old same old players....and EOS also got the same criticism (rightly). Now we have EOS/DK love child JS doing the same in fact he is possibly worse than EOS....

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:49 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

I brought up the Wales loss in the last world cup because BOD brought it up a few days ago, blaming Kidney for not having a Plan B (and telling us that Joe Schmidt would never be caught out like that).

Well, he was just caught out - badly.

By the way, after the Australian win at the last world cup, Ireland comprehensively beat Italy. Did you learn anything from the poor performance against Italy this time around or are you completely taken aback at the extent of the loss today (one of our worst ever in a rugby world cup).

He was right, Kidney didn't have a plan B in that game, and when Kidney left the team was a shambles. Maybe wishful thinking on his part regarding Argentina, but he is hardly going to criticise Joe's plans on the eve of RWC 1/4. Equally I don't think we could say the plans for Argentina, France or Italy in this tournament have been anything alike, and we definitely saw a different plan when Sexton came off last weekend too.

I said before the match I think Ireland need to ensure they had the same defensive line speed as against France, or Argentina could really hurt us. It was evident that that was something that hurt us against Italy. Whether that has to do with tactics or execution or fitness I don't know.

Again the fundamentals are being ignored here..,..Argentina played the ball through the backs with so much depth and a screen to shoot up completely would have been impossible and they would have cut us open down the middle. You are of course ignoring that on three occasions we were just beaten for basic speed on the wings nothing more than that...speed and execution and our inability to do basic tackling....

Speed of the defensive line moving up and the line fanning out, both were problems. You just can't gift the Argentine backs space like that. And if you are not moving up or out quickly enough they will of course beat your defenders for speed and so either break the tackle or most of the time get over the gainline.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:49 pm

Yeah if Argentina keep getting better then even Australia might feel like the hanger-on down South, by the skin of their fingers.

by Dave. Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:53 pm

This isnt brpught on by anything said here, in fact I'm going in blind, but....

To be honest I think they should hang their heads in shame. Are we supposed to be proud of beating France? Only one side looked like they cared out there and that was Argentina. Ireland froze out there. Great rugby from them and I hope they win it now, free flowing joy. Another world cup, another Irish choke. One semi final in 28 years isn't that hard to ask for is it?

No doubt there be a few Slamless 6 Nations titles, a few Lions caps but I fear it'll be the same conversation in 4 years time, as it was 4 years ago.

We shouldn't be proud of a side that got smashed by 23. Rather they let us all down. They weren't brave either; what Japan did - that was brave. Until we get rid of this happy to be there mentality, it'll happen again and again. There was a golden chance to do something. Same old story. Not the refs fault, not the injuries either, losing by 23 points in a RWC QF is a downright disgrace. We're supposedly better than that, are we not?

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:54 pm

carpet baboon wrote:OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

We do have the players with good handling ability, Zebo Fitzgerald Henshaw Madigan Sexton Henderson can all play heads up rugby. Plenty of guys coming through too like McCloskey Ringrose Hanrahan.

The point is changing the focus of how they play the game, and give them the opportunity to play. If the onus is always "Keep it tight" then they will never be confident enough to find a way to unlock tough defences when the time comes

by Sin é Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:57 pm

Marshes wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

I brought up the Wales loss in the last world cup because BOD brought it up a few days ago, blaming Kidney for not having a Plan B (and telling us that Joe Schmidt would never be caught out like that).

Well, he was just caught out - badly.

By the way, after the Australian win at the last world cup, Ireland comprehensively beat Italy. Did you learn anything from the poor performance against Italy this time around or are you completely taken aback at the extent of the loss today (one of our worst ever in a rugby world cup).

He was right, Kidney didn't have a plan B in that game, and when Kidney left the team was a shambles. Maybe wishful thinking on his part regarding Argentina, but he is hardly going to criticise Joe's plans on the eve of RWC 1/4. Equally I don't think we could say the plans for Argentina, France or Italy in this tournament have been anything alike, and we definitely saw a different plan when Sexton came off last weekend too.

I said before the match I think Ireland need to ensure they had the same defensive line speed as against France, or Argentina could really hurt us. It was evident that that was something that hurt us against Italy. Whether that has to do with tactics or execution or fitness I don't know.

The big issue in the Ireland v Wales game was that the Welsh were offside most of the time - and of course the chop tackle. Ireland also thought they won it before they actually played the game. Schmidt was caught out cold, just like Kidney was in 2011.

In fairness to Kidney though, beating the Tri Nations champions in their own backyard was a far more difficult task than Ireland v Argentina yesterday who were a long way from home.

I don't think it was a different plan last week when Sexton came off - that is just the way Madigan plays.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:02 pm

Marshes wrote:

Speed of the defensive line moving up and the line fanning out, both were problems. You just can't gift the Argentine backs space like that. And if you are not moving up or out quickly enough they will of course beat your defenders for speed and so either break the tackle or most of the time get over the gainline.

Argentina are built to play in the 4N - built to attack and counter attack as defending well only gets you perhaps less beaten than defending badly. In order to survive down there they have to attack. In order for Scotland to survive Australia (and they almost did) they had to attack as a 'defence'. In order for Wales to attempt the same thing against the same team, they too had to attack.
The Irish team were trapped by their habits. They spent long periods defending and it didn't matter how they tried it, Argentina are set up to attack better sides. Had Ireland gone to the edges quicker, the Argentinians would have rushed back in and probably gone through the middle.

Massively outgunned on pace, alertness and heads-up offloading rugby - Ireland were cooked defensively. The only time we looked safe was when we attacked (not our thing) and of course that lasted for a blink of an eye.

by FecklessRogue Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 pm

Argentina went through the pain of developing an attacking game in the Rugby Championship and being repeatedly beaten, in order to produce this team, who were brilliant today. I would actually prefer to see us attempt to do the same thing than see us win a 6 Nations by repeatedly kicking the ball in the air.

by Guest Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Scotland never faced the intensity of the France game last week.

Munch, we're deluding ourselves. There is no way a squad supposedly training for a world cup for months and down provisionally as a favourite to do well (ie get into the semis) should only have one high intensity game in them.

That's been Ireland's Achille's heel for years... well before Schmidt too. One game wonders. No, other sides do not display such fragility that one really hard game kills them off in the next.

For us to be able to play two games with the intensity of the France game, we would need a few more world class players. Players that we could rest in big games. The intensity of that game would have a negative impact on most teams looking for a repeat performance the next week. That isn't delusion. That's... almost said fact....ok....it's my opinion
We had a great group, but unfortunately the quarters were either Argentina of NZ. Both Ireland and France were so determined that they were not going against NZ that both teams knocked the stuffing out of each other. Rock and a hard place. NZ would have beaten us even if we were fresh.

That's admitting we're only Quarter final material (which is true - it's what we've only proven to be in WC history) - but the players didn't go into the thing thinking it - hopefully.

So in a WC set up, you do your Pool and hope you get through it with possibly one hard game - done - then from that moment onward you know you'll be playing increasingly tougher games from there on in. You can't escape the logic that you must condition yourself as a squad to have more than one hard game after another. I thought that's what Schmidt's two years were all about? I thought conditioning to withstand heavy, heavy games in sequence was the plan?

You might very well say we've drifted back to our old inconsistent ways. I'm not saying we ever deserved to win that game. But we should have been much more ready to keep the scoreboard closer. Players should not have been exhausted and out on their feet as a tier 1 side after only one hard game.

I've no problem admitting we a quarter final side, but we are a side that can reach semi finals if things go well enough. Unfortunately they didn't in this campaign. I think you asking more than is reasonable, fly. I don't mean that unkindly. For me, the France game took too much out of us. Why do you think a lot of top teams, including NZ, try to save themselves for the coming bigger games? We simply didn't have the luxury of saving ourselves this time around. It would have been great if we had France in the first or second game, but just bad luck that we faced them immediately before the quarters. Argentina had all the rest they wanted. It fell nicely for them.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:10 pm

Dave. wrote:This isnt brpught on by anything said here, in fact I'm going in blind, but....

To be honest I think they should hang their heads in shame. Are we supposed to be proud of beating France? Only one side looked like they cared out there and that was Argentina. Ireland froze out there. Great rugby from them and I hope they win it now, free flowing joy. Another world cup, another Irish choke. One semi final in 28 years isn't that hard to ask for is it?

No doubt there be a few Slamless 6 Nations titles, a few Lions caps but I fear it'll be the same conversation in 4 years time, as it was 4 years ago.

We shouldn't be proud of a side that got smashed by 23. Rather they let us all down. They weren't brave either; what Japan did - that was brave. Until we get rid of this happy to be there mentality, it'll happen again and again. There was a golden chance to do something. Same old story. Not the refs fault, not the injuries either, losing by 23 points in a RWC QF is a downright disgrace. We're supposedly better than that, are we not?

You're bloody right, Dave! Although I'd add that the alleged fitness jokers, who have been clapped on the back by Schmidt a number of times through this competition, let us down more than the players; - as it was obviously them who looked at the pie charts and computer print outs and told both Schmidt and the players themselves that they were ready for the fight.
They weren't. I don't know what model they use to work out what players are ready for the strains of such a super physical sporting event but they were simply wrong to assure Schmidt that things were fine.

by carpet baboon Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:11 pm

Marshes wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

We do have the players with good handling ability, Zebo Fitzgerald Henshaw Madigan Sexton Henderson can all play heads up rugby. Plenty of guys coming through too like McCloskey Ringrose Hanrahan.

The point is changing the focus of how they play the game, and give them the opportunity to play. If the onus is always "Keep it tight" then they will never be confident enough to find a way to unlock tough defences when the time comes

I agree with this but I struggle to think of forwards who have either the pace, physicality or hands at the moment to delver it.
Backs I think we have plenty, its forwards I see the problem

by Sin é Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:13 pm

Marshes wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

We do have the players with good handling ability, Zebo Fitzgerald Henshaw Madigan Sexton Henderson can all play heads up rugby. Plenty of guys coming through too like McCloskey Ringrose Hanrahan.

The point is changing the focus of how they play the game, and give them the opportunity to play. If the onus is always "Keep it tight" then they will never be confident enough to find a way to unlock tough defences when the time comes

Zebo is probably the only one I'd say of that lot who have proven handling ability in a pressure situation. They can all look brilliant at club level, but it goes up a few notches at international level.

by RubyGuby Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:14 pm

Maybe the stat men and the pie charts didn't look under the radar
(Under the radar my arxe) anyone who saw Arg play NZ could see the quality across the park
thumbsup

by Guest Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:17 pm

Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

We do have the players with good handling ability, Zebo Fitzgerald Henshaw Madigan Sexton Henderson can all play heads up rugby. Plenty of guys coming through too like McCloskey Ringrose Hanrahan.

The point is changing the focus of how they play the game, and give them the opportunity to play. If the onus is always "Keep it tight" then they will never be confident enough to find a way to unlock tough defences when the time comes

Zebo is probably the only one I'd say of that lot who have proven handling ability in a pressure situation. They can all look brilliant at club level, but it goes up a few notches at international level.

Just a question. Not trying to wind up, but where would you put Earls in that group? Would you include him with Zebo, or the rest?

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:18 pm

Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

We do have the players with good handling ability, Zebo Fitzgerald Henshaw Madigan Sexton Henderson can all play heads up rugby. Plenty of guys coming through too like McCloskey Ringrose Hanrahan.

The point is changing the focus of how they play the game, and give them the opportunity to play. If the onus is always "Keep it tight" then they will never be confident enough to find a way to unlock tough defences when the time comes

Zebo is probably the only one I'd say of that lot who have proven handling ability in a pressure situation. They can all look brilliant at club level, but it goes up a few notches at international level.

Really? Henshaw and Henderson have both been very reliable in this tournament for showing he can do it when the pressure is on, in bigger games than Zebo (but I agree Zebo defo has the ability). Sexton's credentials for playmaking from hand are pretty solid as well.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:20 pm

Sin é wrote:
Marshes wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:OK let's look forward. We all want a SH style free flowing Ireland.
What players can deliver it?

We do have the players with good handling ability, Zebo Fitzgerald Henshaw Madigan Sexton Henderson can all play heads up rugby. Plenty of guys coming through too like McCloskey Ringrose Hanrahan.

The point is changing the focus of how they play the game, and give them the opportunity to play. If the onus is always "Keep it tight" then they will never be confident enough to find a way to unlock tough defences when the time comes

Zebo is probably the only one I'd say of that lot who have proven handling ability in a pressure situation. They can all look brilliant at club level, but it goes up a few notches at international level.

They have no handling ability because they simply didn't do enough of it behind the scenes. But in this I wouldn't fully blame the International coaches. Handling - fast and in tight situations - quick thinking in tight situations and then best habits when throwing long, must come from persistent use in Provinces.

The Provinces - all of them must be revamped to play to a style that mimics international - in intensity and cleverness. It can't be left to International training camps to teach players the rudiments of passing a ball to create space in high intense games. That's embarrassing to think Internationals are still looking around for someone to teach them those skills in Ireland.

by Marshes Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:24 pm

Who do we think we won't see in the green jersey again? Aside from POC, has maybe Mike Ross played his last? Eoin Reddan and Nathan White surely now, and unless he gets back into some form at Ulster, I think Tommy Bowe might struggle to beat out the competition on the wings..

by Guest Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:27 pm

Marshes wrote:Who do we think we won't see in the green jersey again? Aside from POC, has maybe Mike Ross played his last? Eoin Reddan and Nathan White surely now, and unless he gets back into some form at Ulster, I think Tommy Bowe might struggle to beat out the competition on the wings..

As things stand, I don't think there is much competition for Bowe. Great game v France.

by Engine#4 Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Just a question. Not trying to wind up, but where would you put Earls in that group?

On the wing. Where he belongs. Very Happy

Congrats to Argentina, they hammered Ireland. It was a win for positive rugby over conservatism.

Can't help but feel we would have won that game with RO'G picking off the corners though. Our lineout was the only facet in which we were superior so I hope the incessant box kicking was a coaching directive as opposed to the scrumhalf's bright idea.

The lack of two quality defensive operators in the midfield was ruthlessly exposed. Hopefully Les Kiss' passive defense is left behind for good.

by RubyGuby Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:33 pm

Toners limitations as a player were a bit exposed but in the NH we seem comfortable carrying a few "passengers" who lack an all round game. I believe the Argentinian 2nd rows were 22 and 20 years respectively. That's worrying

thumbsup

by Guest Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:39 pm

Engine#4 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Just a question. Not trying to wind up, but where would you put Earls in that group?

On the wing. Where he belongs.

Congrats to Argentina, they hammered Ireland. It was a win for positive rugby over conservatism.

Can't help but feel we would have won that game with RO'G picking off the corners though. Our lineout was the only facet in which we were superior so I hope the incessant box kicking was a coaching directive as opposed to the scrumhalf's bright idea.

The lack of two quality defensive operators in the midfield was ruthlessly exposed. Hopefully Les Kiss' passive defense is left behind for good.

...and so say all of us..

by Dave. Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:49 pm

Thanks SF. I now feel like Chris Waddle. Now, to stop this memorising a move or you get dropped stuff.....

by catchweight Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:54 pm

A problem for Ireland and the Welsh is the six nations is their bread and butter and they cant really afford to think in terms of world cup cycles. Its all about getting the next result at any cost. Its stifling and conservative. Probably why history repeats itself time and time again.

Argentina looked a team bursting with pace, ideas and energy. They can use the 4 Nations as a testing ground without the pressure of needing the next result every time. The other Southern Hemisphere sides also think more in terms of World Cup cycles over yearly test matches or championships.

by RubyGuby Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:59 pm

catchweight wrote:A problem for Ireland and the Welsh is the six nations is their bread and butter and they cant really afford to think in terms of world cup cycles. Its all about getting the next result at any cost. Its stifling and conservative. Probably why history repeats itself time and time again.

Argentina looked a team bursting with pace, ideas and energy. They can use the 4 Nations as a testing ground without the pressure of needing the next result every time. The other Southern Hemisphere sides also think more in terms of World Cup cycles over yearly test matches or championships.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34567873

Very good point cathweight we seem happy to get one over on each other each year rather than evolve

thumbsup

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:03 pm

Marshes wrote:Who do we think we won't see in the green jersey again? Aside from POC, has maybe Mike Ross played his last? Eoin Reddan and Nathan White surely now, and unless he gets back into some form at Ulster, I think Tommy Bowe might struggle to beat out the competition on the wings..

We came from 9th two years ago to put together a squad that might have a hope in hell of getting to a WC semi-final. That was the brief that the coach was given - that was his priority. Now, we stumbled across two 6Ns whilst on the way, but proved that we still didn't have a hope in hell of getting to a semi-final.

So if we made progress, it's off-kilter and in the wrong areas. Better to have come 2nd or 3rd in the 6Ns and really be blood up for the WC.

But anyway, now we have four years and I hope Schmidt stays to oversee them - but I hope he's allowed drop any assistant he genuinely doesn't want. I think with the timeframe he was initially given and with Plumtree leaving all of a sudden, Schmidt accepted the coaches that were put on his plate more than he actually wanted them.

We must start choosing youth and giving them a genuine shot. I think Bowe, Redden, Ross and Heaslip are close to the end. I think Madigan should be given the entire 6N - win or lose - and whether Sexton is available or not. Sexton can't be the only solution. The foundation must be real and now we have no excuses - four years to get something much more solid to have yet one more go at this blasted thing.
But it starts with youth being given a run without a leash to see what's out there. And it starts with a much more genuine pan-Provincial assault on conditioning levels of players. Pro12 standard is not enough. Spend the money. Increase playing-stamina levels... make it Nationwide. It's not good enough. It's not good enough.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:07 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
catchweight wrote:A problem for Ireland and the Welsh is the six nations is their bread and butter and they cant really afford to think in terms of world cup cycles. Its all about getting the next result at any cost. Its stifling and conservative. Probably why history repeats itself time and time again.

Argentina looked a team bursting with pace, ideas and energy. They can use the 4 Nations as a testing ground without the pressure of needing the next result every time. The other Southern Hemisphere sides also think more in terms of World Cup cycles over yearly test matches or championships.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34567873

Very good point cathweight we seem happy to get one over on each other each year rather than evolve

Yeah. Ban the 6Ns ..and the Lions.

I'm joking about 6N. Lions isn't. I'd love it to die now. It's an embarrassment that teams from four Unions get together to try and beat a team from one Union and still call themselves Tier 1 and still think of themselves as proud Nations in their own right. Lions has had its time. All Nations should devote all their time to straight International....and develop from within

by **LondonTiger** Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:I think Madigan should be given the entire 6N - win or lose - and whether Sexton is available or not. Sexton can't be the only solution.

Can Madigan play there for Ireland as starter if Sexton is playing for Leinster?

Unfortunately for you guys MOC really screwed it up by recruiting gopperth and playing him ahead of Madigan. IRFU shoudl never have allowed that. Sexton's sojourn in Paris was the ideal time to give another player exposure.

by majesticimperialman Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:19 pm

When England got knocked out of the RWC, i switch my support to Wales, then when they got knocked out i thought Ireland was bound to go through, it is a given, the way they beat France they would have no problem with Argentina.

Boy was i wrong? i never expected Argentina too play like they did.

A brave fight from the Irish, thought Madigan was impressive to day.

They say one man don't make a team, but with POC missing today Ireland sure as hell missed his leadership.

Well played Argentina, you was the better team today.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I think Madigan should be given the entire 6N - win or lose - and whether Sexton is available or not. Sexton can't be the only solution.

Can Madigan play there for Ireland as starter if Sexton is playing for Leinster?

Unfortunately for you guys MOC really screwed it up by recruiting gopperth and playing him ahead of Madigan. IRFU shoudl never have allowed that. Sexton's sojourn in Paris was the ideal time to give another player exposure.

I think anything is possible if we have a complete revision of how we approach the next four years. We failed because ultimately Argentina were a much better side and would still have had a good shot at it with all our normal guys there. But that's the other reason we failed, too many 'undroppable' Leaders that fate itself cruelly dropped for us. And the show then looked largely rudderless.

We can't allow that reliance on a few Leaders to develop again as we're not going to become monsters overnight, we're still going to be less rugged than many sides and we're still going to be vulnerable to injuries knocking us off rhythm. That's why I say we should use four years to have a real base of players with real experience, and use four years to really improve our ability to sustain our stamina levels though a WC, something we have major difficulty doing unlike a side like Wales for example.

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