QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October

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IRELAND v ARGENTINA

18 October 2015
KO: 13:00 BST (UTC+01)
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Ref: Jerome Garcès (France)
ARs: Romain Poite (France)and Chris Pollock (NZ)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
10 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 15
331 Points 283

B. Recent Form

14 June 2014
Estadio Monumental José Fierro, Tucumán
17 – 23 to Ireland

7 June 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia
17 – 29 to Ireland

24 November 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 24 to Ireland

28 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
29 – 9 to Ireland

22 November 2008
Croke Park, Dublin
17 – 3 to Ireland

30 September 2007
Parc des Princes, Paris, France
30 – 15 to Argentina

2 June 2007
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
16 – 0 to Argentina

C. TEAMS:

IRELAND


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;
16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)

ARGENTINA


15. Joaquin Tuculet
14. Santiago Cordero
13. Matías Moroni
12. Juan Martín Hernández
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Martín Landajo
1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Agustín Creevy (c)
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Guido Petti
5. Tomás Lavanini
6. Pablo Matera
7. Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
8. Leonardo Senatore

Replacements:
16. Julián Montoya
17. Lucas Noguera
18. Juan Pablo Orlandi
19. Matías Alemanno
20. Facundo Isa
21. Tomás Cubelli
22. Jerónimo De La Fuente
23. Lucas González Amorosino

???

Haven't you heard all the sentimental hogwash about POC over the week, Sin? Even today again...yet more eulogies both on TV3 and ITV - talk about kicking a side when they're down by showing them the player they 'can't survive' without over and over and over again.

This week and today should have been about the players that Were playing not about any of the ones that weren't.

Personally I dont see any major improvements from Ireland from the Kidney regime (at its peak they won a GS). It went stale for Kidney. Maybe it will for Ireland too if the suffer a mediocre 6N.

Dont see any major difference with Ireland now and under Kidney. The box kick and chase from Murray, the up and under from Kearney and the focus on the lineout superiority look to be the Irish staple.

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

What about your dismissive arrogant attitude, surely that needs to be called for what it is every now and then?

catchweight wrote:Personally I dont see any major improvements from Ireland from the Kidney regime (at its peak they won a GS).

Not sure if you're being serious here...

RubyGuby wrote:

lets have a bet Guru, I will be banned by notch before 8pm 5pounds, before 9pm 10 pounds

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

What about your dismissive arrogant attitude, surely that needs to be called for what it is every now and then?

We're not going to go anywhere so long as people decide grinding axes is more important than clam analysis.

As for dismissive, I'll rightly be dismissive of those who put their provincial biases ahead of cold facts.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If Kidney or EOS had the same points deficit to Argentina that Schmidt's team did today, they would be slaughtered.
At the least, hopefully we won't have to hear from BOD about the lack of a gameplan against Wales at the last world cup and this 'In Joe We Trust' crap.

Schmidt will only get Ireland so far if he insists on picking players who seems to have only blind faith in him. Well, I'm pretty sure they have seen the light now. It will be interesting to see if he loses the dressing room after this.

From a man who posts absolute drivel nearly every time he gets near a computer, this post sets a new standard in drivel. Bitter, provincial, over the top and laughably out of touch with reality at the end.

Why? Its a valid question. We all know you are chief cheerleader of the Stepford Wives on here Notch but thats a poor response. The questions are valid. The rugby Argentina played is light years ahead of ours but hey if you are ok with it..no worries then. In joe we trust. Tell you what though if Dave Kearney is in the next 23 man squad you can be sure its more of the same. We will kick our way to another points difference win in the six nations or second place. We have not beaten a team ranked above us in the WC and when you see what the ABs did to France last night you see what the difference is. P1ss poor response from a small minded poster....same old same old.

Lets see who gets banned by Notch before the end of the night...we all know that questioning a Mod is not on...even though he started the personal attacks.

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

Agreed. Everyone knows it, I wouldn't take him seriously. A dreadful excuse for an Ireland fan. Someone who takes delight in our defeats just so he can take about something connected to Munster is not worth having about the place.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

What about your dismissive arrogant attitude, surely that needs to be called for what it is every now and then?

We're not going to go anywhere so long as people decide grinding axes is more important than clam analysis.

As for dismissive, I'll rightly be dismissive of those who put their provincial biases ahead of cold facts.

Cold facts are on the score board Notch not the little fairies in your head.

ME-109 wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If Kidney or EOS had the same points deficit to Argentina that Schmidt's team did today, they would be slaughtered.
At the least, hopefully we won't have to hear from BOD about the lack of a gameplan against Wales at the last world cup and this 'In Joe We Trust' crap.

Schmidt will only get Ireland so far if he insists on picking players who seems to have only blind faith in him. Well, I'm pretty sure they have seen the light now. It will be interesting to see if he loses the dressing room after this.

From a man who posts absolute drivel nearly every time he gets near a computer, this post sets a new standard in drivel. Bitter, provincial, over the top and laughably out of touch with reality at the end.

Why? Its a valid question. We all know you are chief cheerleader of the Stepford Wives on here Notch but thats a poor response. The questions are valid. The rugby Argentina played is light years ahead of ours but hey if you are ok with it..no worries then. In joe we trust. Tell you what though if Dave Kearney is in the next 23 man squad you can be sure its more of the same. We will kick our way to another points difference win in the six nations or second place. We have not beaten a team ranked above us in the WC and when you see what the ABs did to France last night you see what the difference is. P1ss poor response from a small minded poster....same old same old.

Can I just ask what is the solution? New coach? Different players?

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

catchweight wrote:Seems to be same old, same old from Ireland. New coach enjoys good start, expectations increase, looks stale by WC and ends in failure. Public turn against coach. Team stagnates. Cycle is repeated.

I don't think that's true. Not everyone is turning against the coach. I think Schmidt is a great coach who has achieved a lot with the players he has at his disposal. I don't think we looked stale at all. How anyone can say that after having watched us play v France, I don't know. I know some disagree, but Ireland were knackered after the France game. We were fighting our way back into the game after a nightmare of a start, but we had nothing left in the tank in the final quarter. We can't do two massive games in a row, it seems. Not many sides can.

It's not the same old. It's a marked improvement, although there is obviously room for improvement.

I agree with everything there except that conclusion, Munch.  Scotland have had a handful of games where they've had to man up and keep dogging it out.  And they have.  Australia have had a number of tight or high energy games against good opposition.  Wales kept hitting hard despite all their injuries.  We played one good game against real opposition - played rubbish against Italy and were lacking any self belief against Argentina.  Even in the 6N this year.... that last game against Italy was the only one with real fire in the belly.  It's the kind of game that has to be the norm not the exception

Scotland never faced the intensity of the France game last week. That's not to take anything away from a great Scotland performance today. Gutted for them, but delighted that they are on an upwards curve.
Argentina have had a nice run in, and were able to make 10 changes to their starting line up, as well as having a 10 day break. They were always going to be the fresher side.
Wales, like us, were exhausted, and hammered with injuries. They just fell short, and if they had have been a bit fresher they might have done enough to be in the Semi's. I have a huge amount of respect for how Wales have performed this world cup.
Ireland were far from fresh, and also hit hard with injuries. My hope was that the France game wouldn't have hit them as hard as it has, but sadly that hope wasn't realised. Again, I'm not taking anything away from Argentina. I thought they were great. Played the right game against us. Played with precision while playing at a very high intensity. That has to be admired.

Notch wrote:

catchweight wrote:Personally I dont see any major improvements from Ireland from the Kidney regime (at its peak they won a GS).

Not sure if you're being serious here...

I can remember all the chat from Irish fans when Kidney had delivered a grand slam. Very different to now. It went stale for Kidney in the end, but they had some of their highest points in their history with him also.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

What about your dismissive arrogant attitude, surely that needs to be called for what it is every now and then?

We're not going to go anywhere so long as people decide grinding axes is more important than clam analysis.

As for dismissive, I'll rightly be dismissive of those who put their provincial biases ahead of cold facts.

No, he posed a genuine question but because it does not meet your agenda, you turn it provincial. Face it Notch, you simply do not like it when someone disagrees or has a different view than you. You become all personal and arrogant in claiming that people have no idea or are bizarre. Maybe that chip on the shoulder thing is yours and that you are unable to make a calm analysis?

eirebilly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

lets have a bet Guru, I will be banned by notch before 8pm 5pounds, before 9pm 10 pounds

You can't get banned for having a reasoned debate, emotions are running high and many are upset so best manage posts with a bit more decorum for a few days. If we were all in the pub it wouldn't end up like this on occasion and is probably the reason Gibson jacked it in. I'm back on for the RWC then will break for the 6 Nations. You give my love to Gibson when you can. And keep on posting

Exiled Gael wrote:

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

Agreed. Everyone knows it, I wouldn't take him seriously. A dreadful excuse for an Ireland fan. Someone who takes delight in our defeats just so he can take about something connected to Munster is not worth having about the place.

Do you not see this blind playing by numbers that Schmidt coaches is not working when the chips are down. We're told that Ireland can't function without Sexton. How would a coach let that happen (who seems to preach the team is everything). Rob Penney called Schmidt on his coaching of Zebo recently on twitter. (said something like, "The boy can play, too many breakes put on him), so I'm not the only one who has a problem with his coaching philosophy.

RubyGuby wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

lets have a bet Guru, I will be banned by notch before 8pm 5pounds, before 9pm 10 pounds

You can't get banned for having a reasoned debate, emotions are running high and many are upset so best manage posts with a bit more decorum for a few days. If we were all in the pub it wouldn't end up like this on occasion and is probably the reason Gibson jacked it in. I'm back on for the RWC then will break for the 6 Nations. You give my love to Gibson when you can. And keep on posting

Yeah should not get drawn in

Will send your message on to Gibbo, he will like it as he always like chatting with you

carpet baboon wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If Kidney or EOS had the same points deficit to Argentina that Schmidt's team did today, they would be slaughtered.
At the least, hopefully we won't have to hear from BOD about the lack of a gameplan against Wales at the last world cup and this 'In Joe We Trust' crap.

Schmidt will only get Ireland so far if he insists on picking players who seems to have only blind faith in him. Well, I'm pretty sure they have seen the light now. It will be interesting to see if he loses the dressing room after this.

From a man who posts absolute drivel nearly every time he gets near a computer, this post sets a new standard in drivel. Bitter, provincial, over the top and laughably out of touch with reality at the end.

Why? Its a valid question. We all know you are chief cheerleader of the Stepford Wives on here Notch but thats a poor response. The questions are valid. The rugby Argentina played is light years ahead of ours but hey if you are ok with it..no worries then. In joe we trust. Tell you what though if Dave Kearney is in the next 23 man squad you can be sure its more of the same. We will kick our way to another points difference win in the six nations or second place. We have not beaten a team ranked above us in the WC and when you see what the ABs did to France last night you see what the difference is. P1ss poor response from a small minded poster....same old same old.

Can I just ask what is the solution? New coach? Different players?

We are now coached into a limited game plan that works in certain situations. We do not break the gainline or make any attempt at off loading. The SH is light years ahead on this (NZ,AUS and Arg at least). We need to move away from safety first rugby...how?.....f..,ed if I know but not sure Joe is capable of doing that at the moment. We do have players with that capability

Jesus it's like England..... bad world cup, change the coach or change the players.......

Neither - as neither will change a thing!

DOD is perfectly right.  The way ABs disintegrated France piece by tiny piece with a display of all out rugby that excelled in each and every bloody department, show all of us - if we have fecking eyes to see - that what we're doing isn't close to good enough.  
It doesn't matter who is 13 or who is 15.  The story starts at school, it works up to club, it goes into Province and onto International.  That sequence isn't remotely good enough.

We'll always get one-off wins against these SH sides, but until we push our younger players more and get real quality coaching to them at an increasingly younger age then we'll still be sitting here in four years time saying our 11 should be our 13 who should move back to 15.

It's all crud.  It's laughable now.  The only thing we're talking about is constructing a side that might do better in the next boring 6N.  The world has moved on and now even Argentina is laughing at the 6N as a symbol of qualiteeeeeeee

eirebilly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

lets have a bet Guru, I will be banned by notch before 8pm 5pounds, before 9pm 10 pounds

You can't get banned for having a reasoned debate, emotions are running high and many are upset so best manage posts with a bit more decorum for a few days. If we were all in the pub it wouldn't end up like this on occasion and is probably the reason Gibson jacked it in. I'm back on for the RWC then will break for the 6 Nations. You give my love to Gibson when you can. And keep on posting

Yeah should not get drawn in

Will send your message on to Gibbo, he will like it as he always like chatting with you

Pass on my regards to Gibbo. Tell him I miss his over the top cowpat a lot!

I think it is fair to ask a few questions of the management for today's performance. I don't think it should be a knee-jerk reaction and I do think Ireland have been clearly a far better side for the last few years.

But the player and game management of the last week did seem to bring up the first problems under Schmidt's reign. Cronin for some reason disappeared from the bench when he quite predictably was needed on the pitch in this game at around about the 23-20... 26-20 point. Madigan looked far less confident and with all the Sexton stuff during the week it all seemed a bit of a mess.

Finally, and most importantly, how we could be preparing 6-8 months for a blisteringly quick and smooth passing side like Argentina and then we come out and watch them run in 2 (almost 3) tries by simply shipping the ball out wide... well that certainly raises some questions about the chess-like strategic preparations we were supposed to be famous for.

Anyways... it's done. I'm getting over it now a few hours later. And I do feel sorry for the lads. As usual they look like they tried to break themselves in the effort. So that deserves support.

ME-109 wrote:P1ss poor response from a small minded poster....same old same old.

Ah, wise up. No-ones been more realistic about where Ireland are and where we can go than me, but that was just a laughable post saying Schmidt will 'lose the dressing room' because players will see the light (!?), something about Kidney not being shoite etc. etc. It was just ridiculous.

If you read my posts you'll see I really do not want the same old same old. A summer Six Nations will be a start, restructuring the NH club competitions will be a better one, upskilling our players at every level starting at mini rugby is a necessity...

I think the attitude that we could just fire in a Munster lad or two onto the wing (none of whom is in the same league as the Argentina wingers) and it will be grand is the real small minded attitude. We should be aspiring to match and better that level of rugby. And thats gonna come through reform at every level of the NH game not picking a few different players.

I'd like to see the priority change from the IRFU to try and develop a running game in the Six Nations, because right now it's our be all and end all. And the rugby we have played to win the Six Nations, wins Six Nations. And if we want to win more, Kearney will be a grand choice. But if we switch to a more expansive game- results WILL suffer. We've not got the skills to execute it and win as consistently as we do when we play to our current strengths. Changing the style of a play an entire nation is accustomed to isn't easy and it will require more patience than most Ireland fans have. But it can be done; just not overnight. To develop those skills, we need to say we can take two years and it doesn't matter if we lose three or four tests every Six Nations so long as we are working on our skill levels.

So thats the choice.

Sin é wrote:

Pass on my regards to Gibbo. Tell him I miss his over the top cowpat a lot!

If I passed on any other message from you than this, he would certainly not believe me

I don't know as much about rugby as you guys seem to but these are my thoughts.

1. What has happened our line speed in defense? we are so slow off the mark it is laughable.
2. While we don't do chop tackling we tend to bail out of contact to make the attacker get isolated and allow someone to getover the attacker and create a turnover. Only 2 or 3 times did this happen
3. Our blindside defense is appalling
4. We are missing leadership in the backline.
5. Heaslip although i think he has played well should not be the captain. POM should be when he returns
6. Neither Earls, Fitzgerald or Payne are 13's. Mccloskey and Henshaw at 12 - 13 need to be tried

So deflated its hard to see any positives, but i don't think we played badly. Just to our level.

Munchkin wrote:

Scotland never faced the intensity of the France game last week.

Munch, we're deluding ourselves. There is no way a squad supposedly training for a world cup for months and down provisionally as a favourite to do well (ie get into the semis) should only have one high intensity game in them.

That's been Ireland's Achille's heel for years... well before Schmidt too. One game wonders. No, other sides do not display such fragility that one really hard game kills them off in the next.

eirebilly wrote:Maybe that chip on the shoulder thing is yours and that you are unable to make a calm analysis?

Billy. you have been behaving like a child towards me ever since I called you out on your arguments about the 13 shirt not making sense. I think you're a good bloke and a good poster, even if some of the things you say seem really odd to me. I think you need to get over it and stop trying to make this personal

ME-109 wrote:

We are now coached into a limited game plan that works in certain situations. We do not break the gainline or make any attempt at off loading. The SH is light years ahead on this (NZ,AUS and Arg at least). We need to move away from safety first rugby...how?.....f..,ed if I know but not sure Joe is capable of doing that at the moment. We do have players with that capability

I agree with most of what you're saying ME... but Leinster played some of the attacking best rugby we've ever seen out of Irish hands. So surely it's not so one-sided as all that? Maybe you don't believe that. I dunno. But I agree with SF: it's a matter of rugby culture from the ground up. Not just the national coach. I don't it's realistic to think that the current generation that play one type of rugby at club level... could simply come together for the national team and start playing scintillating off-loads and running. Just look at our centres problem over the last two years.

Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe that chip on the shoulder thing is yours and that you are unable to make a calm analysis?

Billy. you have been behaving like a child towards me ever since I called you out on your arguments about the 13 shirt not making sense. I think you're a good bloke and a good poster, even if some of the things you say seem really odd to me. I think you need to get over it and stop trying to make this personal

Ha. you really do take the cake. I respected your views, remained calm even in the light of you calling me bizarre and having no rugby knowledge for simply disagreeing with you.

Read your posts and see who becomes personal...

Notch wrote:

ME-109 wrote:P1ss poor response from a small minded poster....same old same old.

Ah, wise up. No-ones been more realistic about where Ireland are and where we can go than me, but that was just a laughable post saying Schmidt will 'lose the dressing room' because players will see the light (!?), something about Kidney not being shoite etc. etc. It was just ridiculous.

If you read my posts you'll see I really do not want the same old same old. A summer Six Nations will be a start, restructuring the NH club competitions will be a better one, upskilling our players at every level starting at mini rugby is a necessity...

I think the attitude that we could just fire in a Munster lad or two onto the wing (none of whom is in the same league as the Argentina wingers) and it will be grand is the real small minded attitude. We should be aspiring to match and better that level of rugby. And thats gonna come through reform at every level of the NH game not picking a few different players.

I'd like to see the priority change from the IRFU to try and develop a running game in the Six Nations, because right now it's our be all and end all. And the rugby we have played to win the Six Nations, wins Six Nations. And if we want to win more, Kearney will be a grand choice. But if we switch to a more expansive game- results WILL suffer. We've not got the skills to execute it and win as consistently as we do when we play to our current strengths. That can come, but it will not come overnight. To develop those skills, we need to say we can take two years and it doesn't matter if we lose three or four tests every Six Nations so long as we are working on our skill levels.

So thats the choice.

Two things here...first of all...if certain limited players are picked then there is a possibility of disillusionment happening. Secondly its not about having a couple of Munster players thrown in but picking players who will give us a chance. At least why not pick wingers who look like they will score tries (theres something thats a novelty...looks like most other countries think that way already)...

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe that chip on the shoulder thing is yours and that you are unable to make a calm analysis?

Billy. you have been behaving like a child towards me ever since I called you out on your arguments about the 13 shirt not making sense. I think you're a good bloke and a good poster, even if some of the things you say seem really odd to me. I think you need to get over it and stop trying to make this personal

Ha. you really do take the cake. I respected your views, remained calm even in the light of you calling me bizarre and having no rugby knowledge for simply disagreeing with you.

Read your posts and see who becomes personal...

Yeah and you've been following me around like a lost puppy ever since. Seriously, if you have something to say get it off your chest and be done with it. Otherwise just get over it.

Because i'm not getting sucked into anything thats personal or confrontational. I just do not have time for it.

Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

The first personal comment was yours eirebilly, it might be watching something and getting some time to refelct, its a bitter pill to swallow this match.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Scotland never faced the intensity of the France game last week.

Munch, we're deluding ourselves.  There is no way a squad supposedly training for a world cup for months and down provisionally as a favourite to do well (ie get into the semis) should only have one high intensity game in them.

That's been Ireland's Achille's heel for years... well before Schmidt too.  One game wonders.  No, other sides do not display such fragility that one really hard game kills them off in the next.

For us to be able to play two games with the intensity of the France game, we would need a few more world class players. Players that we could rest in big games. The intensity of that game would have a negative impact on most teams looking for a repeat performance the next week. That isn't delusion. That's... almost said fact....ok....it's my opinion
We had a great group, but unfortunately the quarters were either Argentina of NZ. Both Ireland and France were so determined that they were not going against NZ that both teams knocked the stuffing out of each other. Rock and a hard place. NZ would have beaten us even if we were fresh.

Kidneys Ireland would have got tonked by Argentina as well. Which is kind of the point. I dont think this Ireland team is any better than it was at its best under Kidney and plays a similar brand of kick and chase, set piece oriented rugby.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe that chip on the shoulder thing is yours and that you are unable to make a calm analysis?

Billy. you have been behaving like a child towards me ever since I called you out on your arguments about the 13 shirt not making sense. I think you're a good bloke and a good poster, even if some of the things you say seem really odd to me. I think you need to get over it and stop trying to make this personal

Ha. you really do take the cake. I respected your views, remained calm even in the light of you calling me bizarre and having no rugby knowledge for simply disagreeing with you.

Read your posts and see who becomes personal...

Yeah and you've been following me around like a lost puppy ever since. Seriously, if you have something to say get it off your chest and be done with it. Otherwise just get over it.

Because i'm not getting sucked into anything thats personal or confrontational. I just do not have time for it.

I just prefer to talk rugby and not get into personal attacks. I think that its very nice to actually understand and respond to others opinions. Enjoy your little personal swipes, I am done and will leave you to be just the way you are

At least the Irish rooms are back bullshitting again big time. That's gotta be a bonus.

It's been much too quiet here recently. Go on admit it, few of fully believed in the fantasy the further along it went. Small little clues were telling us this wasn't going to go right.... and that's before Paulie and his out-patients went AWOL on us

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Scotland never faced the intensity of the France game last week.

Munch, we're deluding ourselves.  There is no way a squad supposedly training for a world cup for months and down provisionally as a favourite to do well (ie get into the semis) should only have one high intensity game in them.

That's been Ireland's Achille's heel for years... well before Schmidt too.  One game wonders.  No, other sides do not display such fragility that one really hard game kills them off in the next.

That incredibly intense game was a week ago in fairness fly. Argentina have been in prep mode for their Semi-Final for about two weeks no, running out the fringe lads against Namibia. You see it for every team at this tournament, noone strings together performances of that intensity, except maybe with the exception of the All Blacks, but even they try to blow teams away in the first 30 then take the foot off (unless they are making a point against France!). You were saying so before the game (at least I think it was you!) that we couldn't play at France level again, it was too much to ask.

Least anyone forget we only played one more game than in the six nations. Of which two were against so called minnows and one was against a team we expect to beat handily 9 times out of 10. So we had two top level games.....and we are making excuses about one or two "high intensity" games....more straws.

Exiled Gael wrote:

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

Agreed. Everyone knows it, I wouldn't take him seriously. A dreadful excuse for an Ireland fan. Someone who takes delight in our defeats just so he can take about something connected to Munster is not worth having about the place.

Can you do anything other than personal attacks. And if you think I enjoyed that loss, you are obviously clueless.

For the record, right from the start I have been critical of Schmidt's coaching philosophy (safety first). He has a poor record with the Auckland Blues and Carlos Spencer in particular. He just can't cope with guys that have a bit of flair, but other than that, he seems to be a very nice chap. He seems to be more like a soccer coach than a rugby coach though (He is the gaffer, very strong disciplinarian).

For the record, of all the coaches that have come through Ireland, I'd like the ex-Leinster coach, Michael Cheika.

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Scotland never faced the intensity of the France game last week.

Munch, we're deluding ourselves.  There is no way a squad supposedly training for a world cup for months and down provisionally as a favourite to do well (ie get into the semis) should only have one high intensity game in them.

That's been Ireland's Achille's heel for years... well before Schmidt too.  One game wonders.  No, other sides do not display such fragility that one really hard game kills them off in the next.

For us to be able to play two games with the intensity of the France game, we would need a few more world class players. Players that we could rest in big games. The intensity of that game would have a negative impact on most teams looking for a repeat performance the next week. That isn't delusion. That's... almost said fact....ok....it's my opinion
We had a great group, but unfortunately the quarters were either Argentina of NZ. Both Ireland and France were so determined that they were not going against NZ that both teams knocked the stuffing out of each other. Rock and a hard place. NZ would have beaten us even if we were fresh.

That's admitting we're only Quarter final material (which is true - it's what we've only proven to be in WC history) - but the players didn't go into the thing thinking it - hopefully.

So in a WC set up, you do your Pool and hope you get through it with possibly one hard game - done - then from that moment onward you know you'll be playing increasingly tougher games from there on in. You can't escape the logic that you must condition yourself as a squad to have more than one hard game after another. I thought that's what Schmidt's two years were all about? I thought conditioning to withstand heavy, heavy games in sequence was the plan?

You might very well say we've drifted back to our old inconsistent ways. I'm not saying we ever deserved to win that game. But we should have been much more ready to keep the scoreboard closer. Players should not have been exhausted and out on their feet as a tier 1 side after only one hard game.

ME-109 wrote:

Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

Sin é wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:

Notch wrote:Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.

Agreed. Everyone knows it, I wouldn't take him seriously. A dreadful excuse for an Ireland fan. Someone who takes delight in our defeats just so he can take about something connected to Munster is not worth having about the place.

Can you do anything other than personal attacks. And if you think I enjoyed that loss, you are obviously clueless.

For the record, right from the start I have been critical of Schmidt's coaching philosophy (safety first). He has a poor record with the Auckland Blues and Carlos Spencer in particular. He just can't cope with guys that have a bit of flair, but other than that, he seems to be a very nice chap. He seems to be more like a soccer coach than a rugby coach though (He is the gaffer, very strong disciplinarian).

For the record, of all the coaches that have come through Ireland, I'd like the ex-Leinster coach, Michael Cheika.

I have to say I wasnt a great fan but the two 6ns won me over. I thought we were developing and I thought for the world cup we would see something different. It appears our World cup was based on one or two "Power" plays....and that was it. I think having mediocre players who do a "job" is a poor approach...

ME-109 wrote:Least anyone forget we only played one more game than in the six nations. Of which two were against so called minnows and one was against a team we expect to beat handily 9 times out of 10. So we had two top level games.....and we are making excuses about one or two "high intensity" games....more straws.

Not straws. Do you really think if we played that sort of game against France in the 6NS we would be ready to take on a fresh Wales the next week? Not a chance.

Marshes wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

Really...or was it just that the Welsh backrow completely out played ours or that our midfield defence went missing during that game.....so lets say everyone and their dogs could see what the problem is with DKs team but you dont think a 23 point loss is brutally exposed?

catchweight wrote:Kidneys Ireland would have got tonked by Argentina as well. Which is kind of the point. I dont think this Ireland team is any better than it was at its best under Kidney and plays a similar brand of kick and chase, set piece oriented rugby.

Fair enough. I think we are a lot better now- in that everyone knows their role and there is no confusion. There is a clarity of purpose in attack and defence. And there is always a perceptible game plan.

This was, to be fair, probably the worst game under Schmidt and the one game you could say our defensive game plan was seriously open to question. And I think the fact that it is passive has been pointed out before; Argentina exploited it. But we played quite well in periods to get back into the match; we weren't even that bad overall, Argentina were great. I just feel the intensity Argentina brought was unplayable at the start and we were shell-shocked. We weren't playing at anywhere near the same intensity, so we failed to get across in defence anywhere near the speed they were playing at. This left us short-handed in wide channels. In attack, they killed us with the blitz defence. We were predictable in the face of ferocious tackling. We couldn't get our phase play going- and Madigan didn't have the awareness or ability to spot what their line speed was doing to us and exploit it with good territorial kicking or just putting the ball behind them with a few delicate chips or grubbers.

I feel like the loss of Payne and Sexton was massive organisationally in our back line. Those are the two guys who organise the players around them and when things aren't working in defence or attack they are the ones who might be communicating it. Not having that was massive. The losses of key leaders, the performance of Argentina, and the thrown together look of our outside backs was a perfect storm.

Don't think there's any reason to lose faith in this Irish set-up though. Given how much we've improved there is no reason we can't continue that. Do think we have a ceiling on our improvement which comes from how the game is organised. One criticism is, why can't we play two big games in a row? Well having the Heineken Cup games scattered throughout the season doesn't help develop that. Playing the Heineken Cup in one nine-game bloc would help develop that tournament mentality you need for the World Cup. Why can't we defend against teams who recycle and move the ball ruthlessly fast like Argentina and New Zealand? We're not going to be able to practice defending that kind of tempo and accuracy against Scotland in a freezing Murrayfield in February when the ball sees plenty of air.

So the whole NH needs to be considering how we can change our system to produce that kind of rugby because right now, it's not being catered for.

We are a lot better now?????????

But we just lost by 23 points to a team we havent lost too in years?

Marshes wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Marshes wrote:Schmidt picked up a team that Kidney had left in an utterly demolished state, took them to back to back Six Nations, second in the world and victories over SA and Australia (and very close to the All Blacks). We got out of our group here, and met an Argentina side in redhot form who blew us away. You think Kidney would have masterminded a victory there? Maybe fling Stephen Ferris at them until his ankles give way? Joe for me got the defensive tactics wrong and questions should be asked about Ireland's playing style, but given our recent history, I think he has earned the support. Let us see what we can change now and learn from this.

Why you are trying to revise the history of the Wales game in 2011 is beyond me, it was as impotent and out of ideas as a team could get. And it is silly to say Joe will lose the dressing room for it, we were without five first team players, off the back of a very intense game, with less rest, and didn't turn up for 20 minutes, the players take responsibility for that too. I know you all drank the Kidney Kool-Aid but a bit of perspective would do you know harm.

You couldnt make this up...but seeing as you are bringing Kidney into it...he still won a GS, topped a group in the WC (while beating a team ranked higher). And except for an atrocious decision by Nigel Owens we would have beaten the ABs away (while not blowing a 20 point lead)...

I didn't bring Kidney into it ME, Sin did as usual. And not having a go at Kidney's achievements, but by the time that Wales game happened, everyone and their dogs could see the problem with Kidney's Ireland and it was brutally exposed. It was more downhill than up from there as Ireland continued bashing their heads against the brick wall.

So yes the result is very disappointing, but how we respond is the important thing now

I brought up the Wales loss in the last world cup because BOD brought it up a few days ago, blaming Kidney for not having a Plan B (and telling us that Joe Schmidt would never be caught out like that).

Well, he was just caught out - badly.

By the way, after the Australian win at the last world cup, Ireland comprehensively beat Italy. Did you learn anything from the poor performance against Italy this time around or are you completely taken aback at the extent of the loss today (one of our worst ever in a rugby world cup).

Munchkin wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Least anyone forget we only played one more game than in the six nations. Of which two were against so called minnows and one was against a team we expect to beat handily 9 times out of 10. So we had two top level games.....and we are making excuses about one or two "high intensity" games....more straws.

Not straws. Do you really think if we played that sort of game against France in the 6NS we would be ready to take on a fresh Wales the next week? Not a chance.

Would Wales be ready for us the following week had they that game with France the week before?

I genuinely think they would be Munch.  They'd put up a helluva fight and they'd be rushing in with the strike tanks trying to pummel us silly to then spread it wide and kill us off.  And Gatland would be there demanding that aggression from them.

We don't do consistent intensity better than most 6N sides.  England can do it for more games.  Wales certainly can.  Even Scotland have always given it a physical attacking go through more games.  That's not to say that our savvy wouldn't pull off wins against them - but all of them can give a sequence of hard hard games better than we can.