QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October

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IRELAND v ARGENTINA

18 October 2015
KO: 13:00 BST (UTC+01)
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Ref: Jerome Garcès (France)
ARs: Romain Poite (France)and Chris Pollock (NZ)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
10 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 15
331 Points 283

B. Recent Form

14 June 2014
Estadio Monumental José Fierro, Tucumán
17 – 23 to Ireland

7 June 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia
17 – 29 to Ireland

24 November 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 24 to Ireland

28 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
29 – 9 to Ireland

22 November 2008
Croke Park, Dublin
17 – 3 to Ireland

30 September 2007
Parc des Princes, Paris, France
30 – 15 to Argentina

2 June 2007
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
16 – 0 to Argentina

C. TEAMS:

IRELAND


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;
16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)

ARGENTINA


15. Joaquin Tuculet
14. Santiago Cordero
13. Matías Moroni
12. Juan Martín Hernández
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Martín Landajo
1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Agustín Creevy (c)
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Guido Petti
5. Tomás Lavanini
6. Pablo Matera
7. Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
8. Leonardo Senatore

Replacements:
16. Julián Montoya
17. Lucas Noguera
18. Juan Pablo Orlandi
19. Matías Alemanno
20. Facundo Isa
21. Tomás Cubelli
22. Jerónimo De La Fuente
23. Lucas González Amorosino

Munchkin wrote:

Oh billy. We all know how much you love Earls. Can find a fault in the man.

It's all moot anyway. Payne nor Earls are the future at centre, or perhaps anywhere in an Ireland team.

Henshaw - McCloskey/Olding. That's the future.

Actually, I have found many faults in him where I feel he needs to work on. One of those was his tackling position, he often gets his head in bad position leading to injuries. He has worked on this and its one of the reasons why he has become an excellent defender.

Anyways, going forwards, I would like to see POM made the captain. Very much a leader in the POC mould.

eirebilly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Oh billy. We all know how much you love Earls. Can find a fault in the man.

It's all moot anyway. Payne nor Earls are the future at centre, or perhaps anywhere in an Ireland team.

Henshaw - McCloskey/Olding. That's the future.

Actually, I have found many faults in him where I feel he needs to work on. One of those was his tackling position, he often gets his head in bad position leading to injuries. He is a constant fumbler of the ball. He couldn't catch a cold. He has worked on this and its one of the reasons why he has become an excellent defender.

Anyways, going forwards, I would like to see POM made the captain. Very much a leader in the POC mould.

Agree with you completely

Agree on POM. Best we have in terms of leadership.

Munchkin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Oh billy. We all know how much you love Earls. Can find a fault in the man.

It's all moot anyway. Payne nor Earls are the future at centre, or perhaps anywhere in an Ireland team.

Henshaw - McCloskey/Olding. That's the future.

Actually, I have found many faults in him where I feel he needs to work on. One of those was his tackling position, he often gets his head in bad position leading to injuries. He is a constant fumbler of the ball. He couldn't catch a cold. He has worked on this and its one of the reasons why he has become an excellent defender.

Anyways, going forwards, I would like to see POM made the captain. Very much a leader in the POC mould.

Agree with you completely but had to act the goat and put in untruths just to WUM

Agree on POM. Best we have in terms of leadership.

2 can play at that game

eirebilly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Oh billy. We all know how much you love Earls. Can find a fault in the man.

It's all moot anyway. Payne nor Earls are the future at centre, or perhaps anywhere in an Ireland team.

Henshaw - McCloskey/Olding. That's the future.

Actually, I have found many faults in him where I feel he needs to work on. One of those was his tackling position, he often gets his head in bad position leading to injuries. He is a constant fumbler of the ball. He couldn't catch a cold. He has worked on this and its one of the reasons why he has become an excellent defender.

Anyways, going forwards, I would like to see POM made the captain. Very much a leader in the POC mould.

Agree with you completely but had to act the goat and put in untruths just to WUM

Agree on POM. Best we have in terms of leadership.

2 can play at that game

Ah, billy. Don't get sore. Just a bit of fun.


.... even if my little insertion is true  

I am not sore at all, kind of hope this result ends up being the kick up the rectum that Irish rugby (and some of its fans) needed and that action now takes place.

4 years to prepare and I hope that Ireland do it a little bit more cleverly than last preparations.

eirebilly wrote:I am not sore at all, kind of hope this result ends up being the kick up the rectum that Irish rugby (and some of its fans) needed and that action now takes place.

4 years to prepare and I hope that Ireland do it a little bit more cleverly than last preparations.

I have my own gripes, but don't think I can really fault the preparation. We simply don't have the players, or enough of the quality of player that we needed to compete effectively in two very tough games. I'm sure Schmidt will have learned something from this world cup, but what is most obvious, to my mind, is that we need to develop more players.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I think one of the major factors yesterday was the loss of POC's leadership qualities. I know a lot of you hate this opinion but I still firmly believe that the up-trend in Ireland from 9th to 2nd had more to do with POC's return to the team than Schmidt...

Or was it because Schmidt finally taught POC to catch and pass the ball, something Kidney and Penney failed to do....

God loves a trier rodders, so bless

POC is and always has been an excellent player and leader. He inspires players on the field to perform better. Read some of the quotes made about him by some Irish players. His onfield leadership was what got Ireland going again, not Schmidt's game plan...

Ah here Billser sure the time he told everyone to put the fear of god into the french and then he dropped the restart and cost us a grand slam - what sort of leadership is that.

Toner has been carrying him for 2 seasons - Toulon will soon realize they should have went for Mike McCarthy.

I don't think the preparations were that good to be honest. The warm-up games were pretty much a disaster and I was saying at the time that Ireland needed to get into gear only to be shouted down that Ireland were hiding these special moves for big games...

Didn't see too much of these moves against Italy or Argentina. I got my hopes up against France but as it turns out, they really were pish and some of the Tier 2 sides gave better fights to the T1 nations than they did.

I think Ireland do have a strength in depth but I am not sure the correct players were mobilised.

Munchkin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I am not sore at all, kind of hope this result ends up being the kick up the rectum that Irish rugby (and some of its fans) needed and that action now takes place.

4 years to prepare and I hope that Ireland do it a little bit more cleverly than last preparations.

I have my own gripes, but don't think I can really fault the preparation. We simply don't have the players, or enough of the quality of player that we needed to compete effectively in two very tough games. I'm sure Schmidt will have learned something from this world cup, but what is most obvious, to my mind, is that we need to develop more players.

Well I'd hope he realized that before the RWC! - no you are spot on here.

That's why SA always do well -they just have a conveyor belt of big units they can role off the bench, whereas we are relaying on the same handful of guys to run themselves into the ground.

Schmidt has made major progress but we were still down to the bare bones in a lot of positions -we had to call up Isaac Boss for flip sake! Healy was half fit.

Guys like Madigan, Henshaw, O'Mahoney,Zebo, McGrath, boring Dave, Henderson will all gain a lot from the experience even if a lot of the squad won't make Japan.

Individually I thought there was a lot of guys who performed and it went well beyond the 1st XV.

It could have gone better but unlike 2007 and 2011 I don't think we choked, we were beaten by a top side and decimated by injuries - this group can leave with their heads high.

I'd agree about the preparation.

1. Limited Plan A.
2. No Plan B
3. Poor selections (and none based on form). Earls apparently was going to be dropped for Dave Kearney on the wing for the French game. Zebo given no opportunity to compete for a wing spot. Trimble not able to make the squad! Healy just not fit.

I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

The fault here wasn't anything minor. I'm convinced we could have played the game at full strength and would have lost by not much less. The standard the north play at needs to improve. Unfortunately we are all accustomed to crap rugby.

eirebilly wrote:I don't think the preparations were that good to be honest. The warm-up games were pretty much a disaster and I was saying at the time that Ireland needed to get into gear only to be shouted down that Ireland were hiding these special moves for big games...

Didn't see too much of these moves against Italy or Argentina. I got my hopes up against France but as it turns out, they really were pish and some of the Tier 2 sides gave better fights to the T1 nations than they did.

I think Ireland do have a strength in depth but I am not sure the correct players were mobilised.

The special moves are so special that Schmidt wanted to keep them hidden until 2019, when we will reach, and win, the final

I think we did the right thing in the warm ups. No point in giving it our all and giving away strengths and weaknesses. It isn't as if it adversely affected the French game. We were ready for that game, and that game was always going to be the one targeted to let loose. We could have hammered Italy, but at what cost to the France game? We hammered France, but at what cost to the Argentina game?

Well we haven't beaten a team ranked higher than us. So I guess that doesn't make us chokers..it probably means we just about did as well as could be expected.

eirebilly wrote:I don't think the preparations were that good to be honest. The warm-up games were pretty much a disaster and I was saying at the time that Ireland needed to get into gear only to be shouted down that Ireland were hiding these special moves for big games...

The warm-ups weren't a disaster. The players who played last time out, led by O'Connell, felt they didn't see the benefit of going away in camp and wanted to use the games as part of their conditioning - they didn't set out to perform in those games.

The plan was to peak later in the tournament, specifically the French game, so from that perspective the preparation was spot on. This is well known,

There is no evidence that fitness was an issue.

It's pretty hard to do power plays when you are getting battered at the breakdown. Considering we lost 4 of our most effective players in the breakdown - O'Connell, POM, Payne and SOB then that is difficult to prepare for.

News just in from WalesOnline: The special hidden moves are still on but have been put on ice until the 6Ns.

Thank God for that. We'll marmalise Italy now 7 -3!!!!!

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked - a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Wow. Payne is an expert at the breakdown now. His talents are never-ending.

ME-109 wrote:Wow. Payne is an expert at the breakdown now. His talents are never-ending.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-jared-payne-ireland-rwc-2015-2359440-Sep2015/

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I don't think the preparations were that good to be honest. The warm-up games were pretty much a disaster and I was saying at the time that Ireland needed to get into gear only to be shouted down that Ireland were hiding these special moves for big games...

The warm-ups weren't a disaster. The players who played last time out, led by O'Connell, felt they didn't see the benefit of going away in camp and wanted to use the games as part of their conditioning - they didn't set out to perform in those games.

The plan was to peak later in the tournament, specifically the French game, so from that perspective the preparation was spot on. This is well known,

There is no evidence that fitness was an issue.

It's pretty hard to do power plays when you are getting battered at the breakdown. Considering we lost 4 of our most effective players in the breakdown - O'Connell, POM, Payne and SOB then that is difficult to prepare for.

 Payne effective at the Breakdown? rodders

I believe that the warm-up games were useless. Nothing was tried out and in loosing such games, it must have put doubts in the players eyes. I believe in going out to win in every match, not just survive.

Someone unplugged our Power during the first 20 minutes and the ref never gave them a Yellow card, the f**ker.

It looked like Barnes but in all honesty I didn't get enough of a look to be certain.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I don't think the preparations were that good to be honest. The warm-up games were pretty much a disaster and I was saying at the time that Ireland needed to get into gear only to be shouted down that Ireland were hiding these special moves for big games...

The warm-ups weren't a disaster. The players who played last time out, led by O'Connell, felt they didn't see the benefit of going away in camp and wanted to use the games as part of their conditioning - they didn't set out to perform in those games.

The plan was to peak later in the tournament, specifically the French game, so from that perspective the preparation was spot on. This is well known,

There is no evidence that fitness was an issue.

It's pretty hard to do power plays when you are getting battered at the breakdown. Considering we lost 4 of our most effective players in the breakdown - O'Connell, POM, Payne and SOB then that is difficult to prepare for.

 Payne effective at the Breakdown? rodders

I believe that the warm-up games were useless. Nothing was tried out and in loosing such games, it must have put doubts in the players eyes. I believe in going out to win in every match, not just survive.

Well England beat us at twickenham so how did that work for them - which side went in with more doubts?

The warm-ups were spot on from our perspective - no one got injured and we gave nothing away. The only thing that went wrong was injuries to key players like Henshaw, Payne, Sexton meant we couldn't play combinations together enough before the Italy game.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Here we're judging players yet again on Pro12 performances.... God, not even a wet day has passed and we think there are a bunch of angels showering magic all through ye olde Pro12.

rodders wrote:

Well England beat us at twickenham so how did that work for them - which side went in with more doubts?

The warm-ups were spot on from our perspective - no one got injured and we gave nothing away. The only thing that went wrong was injuries to key players like Henshaw, Payne, Sexton meant we couldn't play combinations together enough before the Italy game.

Not sure what your point is here. I imagine that England beating Ireland (the current 6N champions) at home before a RWC would have given them a lot of confidence. Difference is the group England were in was much harder than Irelands. Can you say with absolute certainty that Ireland would have gotten out of that group? I cant.

Didn't give anything away? There was nothing to give away as we well and truly saw in the games Ireland played. One dimensional easy to counter rugby. Italy did a fantastic job countering Ireland, France were simply poor and Argentina figured Ireland right out.

Injuries affect most teams during RWC's which is why top coaches plan for such things and have pre-set back-up plans in place to cover such eventualities. Ireland did not and so were found wanting.

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Easily. Sin talks about big match mentality, then suggests Kilcoyne as viable vs Argentina ? If he actually believes that there's simply no point in entertaining a debate. Opinions at play there are too different.

SecretFly wrote:Here we're judging players yet again on Pro12 performances.... God, not even a wet day has passed and we think there are a bunch of angels showering magic all through ye olde Pro12.

What else do you judge them on if they are not in the squad? Not saying Buckley should have been there over a McGrath or Healy Fly, but if we were looking for alternatives to fill in where none had international experience (say if Healy wasn't fit enough), I'm saying he would not have been far off. And maybe worth a look soon

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

You watching the game yesterday?

kunu wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Easily. Sin talks about big match mentality, then suggests Kilcoyne as viable vs Argentina ? If he actually believes that there's simply no point in entertaining a debate. Opinions at play there are too different.

No I did not. I was making the point that Kilcoyne knew at the beginning of August that he wasn't going to the world cup despite Healy being nowhere near fit. That is bad management. What was Schmidt selecting on back then? It certainly wasn't on form.

By the way, you are wrong about Kilcoyne. And he did play well in the warm-ups.

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Not at the rate he gives away penalties.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Well England beat us at twickenham so how did that work for them - which side went in with more doubts?

The warm-ups were spot on from our perspective - no one got injured and we gave nothing away. The only thing that went wrong was injuries to key players like Henshaw, Payne, Sexton meant we couldn't play combinations together enough before the Italy game.

Not sure what your point is here.

Well my point is that we lost our last 2 warm up games and went on to win 4 games on the bounce before playing the Pumas.

England by contrast won their last 2 and then lost 2 group games, at Twickenham, and didn't even make the QF stages.

Therefore the performances during the warm-ups had no relevance to how the teams performed in the competition or us losing on Sunday.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Easily. Sin talks about big match mentality, then suggests Kilcoyne as viable vs Argentina ? If he actually believes that there's simply no point in entertaining a debate. Opinions at play there are too different.

No I did not. I was making the point that Kilcoyne knew at the beginning of August that he wasn't going to the world cup despite Healy being nowhere near fit. That is bad management. What was Schmidt selecting on back then? It certainly wasn't on form.

By the way, you are wrong about Kilcoyne. And he did play well in the warm-ups.

Sin, is what you said there accurate? What was Killer doing looking at courses instead of trying to play his way into the rwc squad and get a starting berth? He knew he wasn't going to be picked?! feck that defeatist attitude, if that is true then the lad can go do as many courses as he likes cos he should never be let near a green jersey again.  Where's the passion? Where's the pride? Should be taking the Henderson approach of having his performances force his way into the starting side instead of admitting defeat before even attending training camp.

Kilcoyne is bloody useless, what are you guys on about!

Marshes wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Here we're judging players yet again on Pro12 performances.... God, not even a wet day has passed and we think there are a bunch of angels showering magic all through ye olde Pro12.

What else do you judge them on if they are not in the squad? Not saying Buckley should have been there over a McGrath or Healy Fly, but if we were looking for alternatives to fill in where none had international experience (say if Healy wasn't fit enough), I'm saying he would not have been far off. And maybe worth a look soon

I'm not blaming you Marshes.  That's simply the quagmire we're in.  Rushing back to the Provinces for some hope that a player or players might do the trick for us.  I hope there are some but I still see it as only 6N quality we're begging for.

I'd prefer us to start now in our four year cycle and simply say none of our players are good enough.  Then the question would be "why?".  And that would be a very good beginning.  We might do it with some of our coaches too whilst we're at it.

'Why?' suggests that no matter how good we think any of our players are, rising their skill levels and being honest about rising them will only make them better.  And being better will make the game against a very good Argentina less painful.  Argentina might still win and good luck to them but Not Being Satisfied with our standards is the best beginning.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Easily. Sin talks about big match mentality, then suggests Kilcoyne as viable vs Argentina ? If he actually believes that there's simply no point in entertaining a debate. Opinions at play there are too different.

No I did not. I was making the point that Kilcoyne knew at the beginning of August that he wasn't going to the world cup despite Healy being nowhere near fit. That is bad management. What was Schmidt selecting on back then? It certainly wasn't on form.

By the way, you are wrong about Kilcoyne. And he did play well in the warm-ups.

That's bad management?? I know a few players, I have a feeling that might too. They all know well before the squad announcement date if they're included, once there's a clear pecking order. The fringe players know they're on the fringe and are living on a prayer. With the props there clearly was a bit of a gulf in class. That pecking order was justified using your own logic. We need big match players (as you said with Zeebs), Kilcoyne hasn't proven himself one. The other two have done so, plenty of times. Even if there wasn't a clear order, who's to say Kilcoyne didn't just doubt himself and apply for a course anyway. Complete poppycock.

For me, the reality is far more depressing. I cant knock the decision by Joe to play to Ireland's strengths. We did that, our set piece was prepared well, and the team was conditioned well. I don't know how the alternative suggestions could work- we can't field a team of Zebos. We just can't play the way we need to at present. I honestly don't know how the rebuilding process should start.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Well England beat us at twickenham so how did that work for them - which side went in with more doubts?

The warm-ups were spot on from our perspective - no one got injured and we gave nothing away. The only thing that went wrong was injuries to key players like Henshaw, Payne, Sexton meant we couldn't play combinations together enough before the Italy game.

Not sure what your point is here.

Well my point is that we lost our last 2 warm up games and went on to win 4 games on the bounce before playing the Pumas.

England by contrast won their last 2 and then lost 2 group games, at Twickenham, and didn't even make the QF stages.

Therefore the performances during the warm-ups had no relevance to how the teams performed in the competition or us losing on Sunday.

Ha haa, very clever and subtle moving of the goal posts here rodders

My point was that Ireland were dire in the warm-ups and the loss against England must have caused some doubts in the team. You were the one that wanted to reference Englands progress as opposed to Irelands whilst also cleverly not answering my question if Ireland would have progressed from the same group.

I also did not say that they were in any way a reason for Ireland going out, I simply said that the warning signs were there for Ireland but many kept telling me that they were giving nothing away and saving all these moves for big games. Didn't see one.

A for effort though

kunu wrote: I honestly don't know how the rebuilding process should start.

More Ireland camps dotted through the season?  More practical time given to a practical coach under no-stress conditions.  Not in preparation for any specific event (AIs, 6Ns)  but to get the considered lesser players together and getting some systems going to perhaps assist their even smoother transition into real camp in a few years time?

SecretFly wrote:
I'd prefer us to start now in our four year cycle and simply say none of our players are good enough.  Then the question would be "why?".  And that would be a very good beginning.  We might do it with some of our coaches too whilst we're at it.

Yes but that simply isn't true -we have plenty of international quality players - some of them could go on to be the best players we've ever produced - Henshaw and Henderson.

There are only 3 outcomes in a game of rugby - win, lose or draw...well technically in KO game there is no draw - so you can't decide each time you lose your players aren't good enough, there are so many factors.

At 20-17 Madigan has a chance to level the game around 68 min and misses -then shortly after kicks straight into touch which leads to Argentina getting back in our half then kicking 3 -that is a 6 point swing and then the subsequent try puts the Pumas two scores clear and totally changes the dynamic of the last 10 minutes.

In a parallel universe Madigan brings us level on 70min against a tiring Pumas side who've conceded a 17-0 advantage and we are talking about the greatest comeback since France against NZ in 1999.

The margins of winning and losing are nothing -don't over simplify by just blaming the quality of our players and coaches. Some tight calls went for us in the 6N and yesterday they went against us.

Good analysis of the Scottish game Rodders...i think you posted on the wrong thread..

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Well England beat us at twickenham so how did that work for them - which side went in with more doubts?

The warm-ups were spot on from our perspective - no one got injured and we gave nothing away. The only thing that went wrong was injuries to key players like Henshaw, Payne, Sexton meant we couldn't play combinations together enough before the Italy game.

Not sure what your point is here.

Well my point is that we lost our last 2 warm up games and went on to win 4 games on the bounce before playing the Pumas.

England by contrast won their last 2 and then lost 2 group games, at Twickenham, and didn't even make the QF stages.

Therefore the performances during the warm-ups had no relevance to how the teams performed in the competition or us losing on Sunday.

Ha haa, very clever and subtle moving of the goal posts here rodders

My point was that Ireland were dire in the warm-ups and the loss against England must have caused some doubts in the team. You were the one that wanted to reference Englands progress as opposed to Irelands whilst also cleverly not answering my question if Ireland would have progressed from the same group.

I also did not say that they were in any way a reason for Ireland going out, I simply said that the warning signs were there for Ireland but many kept telling me that they were giving nothing away and saving all these moves for big games. Didn't see one.

A for effort though

I don't think it was specifically moves we were saving for the big games- (we did execute a few- the Bowe break and the Earls drop come to mind) but patterns of play we were keeping under wraps. Either way it all came to nada. What's clear to me is that we can't rely on formulaic play. We need to create scenarios where complicated set plays aren't needed. I just don't know if we will ever have the skill levels to get in those positions. Remember when Bowe caught Henshaw's pass after Henshaw's break vs France? He got the ball, and sortof feigned towards Dulin before passing to Kearney. We didn't score because Bowe didn't draw Dulin properly, and I have no doubt the SH sides would have. The Ireland team are largely missing that sort of basic skill. Bowe was on form vs France, and is indboubtedly one of our star players. I think if encapsulates our shortcomings as a team.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Easily. Sin talks about big match mentality, then suggests Kilcoyne as viable vs Argentina ? If he actually believes that there's simply no point in entertaining a debate. Opinions at play there are too different.

No I did not. I was making the point that Kilcoyne knew at the beginning of August that he wasn't going to the world cup despite Healy being nowhere near fit. That is bad management. What was Schmidt selecting on back then? It certainly wasn't on form.

By the way, you are wrong about Kilcoyne. And he did play well in the warm-ups.

That's bad management?? I know a few players, I have a feeling that might too. They all know well before the squad announcement date if they're included, once there's a clear pecking order. The fringe players know they're on the fringe and are living on a prayer. With the props there clearly was a bit of a gulf in class. That pecking order was justified using your own logic. We need big match players (as you said with Zeebs), Kilcoyne hasn't proven himself one. The other two have done so, plenty of times. Even if there wasn't a clear order, who's to say Kilcoyne didn't just doubt himself and apply for a course anyway. Complete poppycock.

For me, the reality is far more depressing. I cant knock the decision by Joe to play to Ireland's strengths. We did that, our set piece was prepared well, and the team was conditioned well. I don't know how the alternative suggestions could work- we can't field a team of Zebos. We just can't play the way we need to at present. I honestly don't know how the rebuilding process should start.

Yes, it is bad management. It means some players know they don't even have to bother. Kilcoyne is a very good prop. and would certainly have been better than a half fit Healy.

What worries me about this is that players are not going to stay playing in the Provinces if they know they haven't a hope of getting a look in with Schmidt's Ireland. Zebo's contract is up at the end of this season, it will be interesting to see if he moves on.

SecretFly wrote:

kunu wrote: I honestly don't know how the rebuilding process should start.

More Ireland camps dotted through the season?  More practical time given to a practical coach under no-stress conditions.  Not in preparation for any specific event (AIs, 6Ns)  but to get the considered lesser players together and getting some systems going to perhaps assist their even smoother transition into real camp in a few years time?

I'd agree with that. Thankfully, the provincial coaches are well placed to facilitate the national team's development now and again.

Joe.... now that you are done messing about, can we now at long last please have our coach back up at Belfast, and our players back too....
Especially Bowe and Cave - their bench spots at Ravers are getting cold...

...thanks again for leaving the best winger in Ireland back in Belfast, and despite the fact you had Jared attend training on a fractured foot - we do appreciate that you left the most exciting young center since BOD back in Belfast where he would he could remain injury free.

I know you tried to let us keep most of our good players, but ultimately it wasn't enough. All good teams need to be coached, and unfortunately the Ulster chiefs and the IRFU came up with some idiotic plan whereby we would effectively be coachless for a season and a half - I'm sure that is really helpful for the develepment of potential internationals based at Ulster...

oh... almost forgot, thanks for fielding Madigan ahead of Jackson, so that Jackson could return to us fresh - hopefully he can be allowed to play this Friday?

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I thought it was interesting in August David Kilcoyne posted an image of a College application for a course to start in September. He knew he wasn't going to the world cup back then which is really disappointing considering Healy was a long way from fitness then.

Kilcoyne can't scrummage, that 's why he wasn't picked -  a half fit Healy can still bind legally and hold up a scrum.

Buckley might not have been far away, very impressive for Connacht over the last year

Yup Buckley would have been ahead of Kilcoyne for sure.

Easily. Sin talks about big match mentality, then suggests Kilcoyne as viable vs Argentina ? If he actually believes that there's simply no point in entertaining a debate. Opinions at play there are too different.

No I did not. I was making the point that Kilcoyne knew at the beginning of August that he wasn't going to the world cup despite Healy being nowhere near fit. That is bad management. What was Schmidt selecting on back then? It certainly wasn't on form.

By the way, you are wrong about Kilcoyne. And he did play well in the warm-ups.

That's bad management?? I know a few players, I have a feeling that might too. They all know well before the squad announcement date if they're included, once there's a clear pecking order. The fringe players know they're on the fringe and are living on a prayer. With the props there clearly was a bit of a gulf in class. That pecking order was justified using your own logic. We need big match players (as you said with Zeebs), Kilcoyne hasn't proven himself one. The other two have done so, plenty of times. Even if there wasn't a clear order, who's to say Kilcoyne didn't just doubt himself and apply for a course anyway. Complete poppycock.

For me, the reality is far more depressing. I cant knock the decision by Joe to play to Ireland's strengths. We did that, our set piece was prepared well, and the team was conditioned well. I don't know how the alternative suggestions could work- we can't field a team of Zebos. We just can't play the way we need to at present. I honestly don't know how the rebuilding process should start.

Yes, it is bad management. It means some players know they don't even have to bother. Kilcoyne is a very good prop. and would certainly have been better than a half fit Healy.

What worries me about this is that players are not going to stay playing in the Provinces if they know they haven't a hope of getting a look in with Schmidt's Ireland. Zebo's contract is up at the end of this season, it will be interesting to see if he moves on.

You call it bad management. I'll go for human nature, and a smart guy who wants to plan for life after rugby.

Having said that all, Schmidt, through good management, did foster a very competitive squad over the World Cup. The notion that players felt they didn't need to bother is rubbish

clive you sound like a Scot.

They were the most peace-loving RugbyNation for centuries...but now that they've become contenders again...they can't stop moaning about refs and decisions going against them.....

kunu wrote:Having said that all, Schmidt, through good management, did foster a very competitive squad over the World Cup. The notion that players felt they didn't need to bother is rubbish

He didn't foster that competitiveness. For instance, Zebo didn't get a chance to compete for a wing spot, he was only allowed compete with Felix Jones for backup fullback.

I wouldn't agree. A good manager should trust himself. He can't pick everyone - bad management doesn't equate to dropping Zebo. To counteract that , he dropped Hendo after a MOM performance and Toner came in twice the player. The two of them were fantastic vs France. Strauss also slotted in well for Cronin after being given the chance. Schmidt is not a wonderful man manager- but he's not a bad one either.

Who is to say it's all Schmidt anyway?  Kiss is senior partner in terms of 'International experience' and would have much advisory input - as he alluded to before they even worked together "I won't be a Yes man" he said.

Maybe Joe should become tougher still because Ireland often now look not unlike the team Kiss already survived.  He's the link man.  

I'm kinda glad he's going full time to Ulster.  Schmidt needs the opportunity to have (if he can tempt any) his own chosen assistants on board.  That's also part of the skill of a Head coach.  Picking the right assistants.  In Plumtree he lost a good one.

All hail Kiss, the real head coach, that lead us to two back to back 6N's victories.

I'm glad he's coming to Ulster as well. ERCC final, here we come!