Ireland 2016 Squad

by **profitius** Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:13 am

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..

Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

by **profitius** Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:45 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Has been played at 7 mostly this season and looks a fish out of water there. It should help his all round game though. Its not easy playing for Munster now especially for a played like JOD. Its like using a thoroughbred for a sulky race... with Foley on the back cracking the whip.

by eirebilly Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

Okay I'll explain. Many of the Munster fans calling for him to be dropped are also claiming that Earls is the better alternative. How anyone can come to that conclusion after what they have witnessed this World Cup is mind boggling. I also find it hilarious that some people are still describing Earls as possessing a good offloading game. Throwing the ball mindlessly when going to ground isn't offloading, it is throwing the ball away mindlessly. I am a big fan of Keith Earls but I have found his comeback to test rugby very disappointing against the bigger sides, and I am gutted to see he still has the same issues he has always had.

But really, do people honestly expect Ireland to become a better, more expansive side with the addition of Earls and Zebo? Come on.

See, here is where we get the truth, you hate Munster so anything any Munster fan say's is mind boggling. Keep it up Rory, you may become a Moderator at this rate Wink

Most Munster fans have been calling for Henshaw to 13, not Earls as far as I am aware. Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded Wink

) must see that Earls actually performed well.

by geoff999rugby Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:34 pm

eirebilly wrote: Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded ) must see that Earls actually performed well.

Henshaw for me - he made a difference.

Actually no back was anything other than, at best, average.
That was part of the problem.
Earls is a very good wing - he is not an international 13 and never will be.
The problem we have had a great of the game occupying that space for a decade and are still struggling to fill it.
Payne was chosen because he was the best defensively and the threes needed a talker to organise the line.
Going forward Henshaw is seen as the best prospect as he will be better suited to 13 than 12

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:59 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

Okay I'll explain. Many of the Munster fans calling for him to be dropped are also claiming that Earls is the better alternative. How anyone can come to that conclusion after what they have witnessed this World Cup is mind boggling. I also find it hilarious that some people are still describing Earls as possessing a good offloading game. Throwing the ball mindlessly when going to ground isn't offloading, it is throwing the ball away mindlessly. I am a big fan of Keith Earls but I have found his comeback to test rugby very disappointing against the bigger sides, and I am gutted to see he still has the same issues he has always had.

But really, do people honestly expect Ireland to become a better, more expansive side with the addition of Earls and Zebo? Come on.

See, here is where we get the truth, you hate Munster so anything any Munster fan say's is mind boggling. Keep it up Rory, you may become a Moderator at this rate

Most Munster fans have been calling for Henshaw to 13, not Earls as far as I am aware. Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded ) must see that Earls actually performed well.

I love Munster, especially Cork and Kinsale, I have a lot of friends from there and consider them my 2nd favourite team after Ulster.

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:04 pm

profitius wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Has been played at 7 mostly this season and looks a fish out of water there. It should help his all round game though. Its not easy playing for Munster now especially for a played like JOD. Its like using a thoroughbred for a sulky race... with Foley on the back cracking the whip.

If that is a dig at Foley, its uncalled for bearing in mind that he would have coached POM & Stander who have both turned into pretty decent backrows. POM especially as he has had him from when he has had him from underage.

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:08 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
eirebilly wrote: Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded ) must see that Earls actually performed well.

Henshaw for me - he made a difference.

Actually no back was anything other than, at best, average.
That was part of the problem.
Earls is a very good wing - he is not an international 13 and never will be.
The problem we have had a great of the game occupying that space for a decade and are still struggling to fill it.
Payne was chosen because he was the best defensively and the threes needed a talker to organise the line.
Going forward Henshaw is seen as the best prospect as he will be better suited to 13 than 12

Whatever your views of what position Earls should play (bear in mind that he played with Henshaw for the first time in the world cup as his centre partner), he is still Ireland best back. Henshaw did well, but he still has a long way to go to be a top international centre. He is lucky he has size and youth on his side. Henshaw will not be moved out to 13 because Ireland need his defensive solidarity there outside Sexton/Madigan/Jackson.

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:13 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

Okay I'll explain. Many of the Munster fans calling for him to be dropped are also claiming that Earls is the better alternative. How anyone can come to that conclusion after what they have witnessed this World Cup is mind boggling. I also find it hilarious that some people are still describing Earls as possessing a good offloading game. Throwing the ball mindlessly when going to ground isn't offloading, it is throwing the ball away mindlessly. I am a big fan of Keith Earls but I have found his comeback to test rugby very disappointing against the bigger sides, and I am gutted to see he still has the same issues he has always had.

But really, do people honestly expect Ireland to become a better, more expansive side with the addition of Earls and Zebo? Come on.

See, here is where we get the truth, you hate Munster so anything any Munster fan say's is mind boggling. Keep it up Rory, you may become a Moderator at this rate

Most Munster fans have been calling for Henshaw to 13, not Earls as far as I am aware. Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded ) must see that Earls actually performed well.

In fairness to Rory, he has a lot of time for Munster players and seems to know a lot about them (though he does get some stuff wrong, i.e., that POM is an 8 Very Happy

)

by eirebilly Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

I love Munster, especially Cork and Kinsale, I have a lot of friends from there and consider them my 2nd favourite team after Ulster.

My apologies then Rory, just get a little bent out of shape when people talk about provincial bias. As a Munster fan, I was always championing the Cave - Henshaw pairing as I believe that would have been the best.

Earls actually had a very good tournament and certainly proved his qualities as an International 13 in my opinion. Ireland were certainly more fluid when he was playing there. Its just a big shame that Irelands lack of speed on the wings was shown up against Argentina.

by wolfball Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Has been played at 7 mostly this season and looks a fish out of water there. It should help his all round game though. Its not easy playing for Munster now especially for a played like JOD. Its like using a thoroughbred for a sulky race... with Foley on the back cracking the whip.

If that is a dig at Foley, its uncalled for bearing in mind that he would have coached POM & Stander who have both turned into pretty decent backrows. POM especially as he has had him from when he has had him from underage.

An interesting point of which I would like to hear more of.

by **profitius** Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Has been played at 7 mostly this season and looks a fish out of water there. It should help his all round game though. Its not easy playing for Munster now especially for a played like JOD. Its like using a thoroughbred for a sulky race... with Foley on the back cracking the whip.

If that is a dig at Foley, its uncalled for bearing in mind that he would have coached POM & Stander who have both turned into pretty decent backrows. POM especially as he has had him from when he has had him from underage.

I'm talking about the style of play. JOD would prefer a more open, fast paced game.

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:15 pm

wolfball wrote:
Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Has been played at 7 mostly this season and looks a fish out of water there. It should help his all round game though. Its not easy playing for Munster now especially for a played like JOD. Its like using a thoroughbred for a sulky race... with Foley on the back cracking the whip.

If that is a dig at Foley, its uncalled for bearing in mind that he would have coached POM & Stander who have both turned into pretty decent backrows. POM especially as he has had him from when he has had him from underage.

An interesting point of which I would like to hear more of.

Not sure what aspect that you are interested in - but Foley would have coached all these players as Munster 'A' coach from when he retired in 2008 and seems to be well regarded by the players. Barry O'Mahony (who has since had to retire) who came in from AIL said that Foley used to give him extra coaching sessions to help him get up to speed with pro rugby.

by geoff999rugby Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:16 pm

Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
eirebilly wrote: Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded ) must see that Earls actually performed well.

Henshaw for me - he made a difference.

Actually no back was anything other than, at best, average.
That was part of the problem.
Earls is a very good wing - he is not an international 13 and never will be.
The problem we have had a great of the game occupying that space for a decade and are still struggling to fill it.
Payne was chosen because he was the best defensively and the threes needed a talker to organise the line.
Going forward Henshaw is seen as the best prospect as he will be better suited to 13 than 12

Whatever your views of what position Earls should play (bear in mind that he played with Henshaw for the first time in the world cup as his centre partner), he is still Ireland best back. In your opinion not mine, and many others
Henshaw did well, but he still has a long way to go to be a top international centre. He is lucky he has size and youth on his side. They are attributes to consider not luck. He has a way to go to be a top international centre. The reality is there is not 1 top international centre, in Ireland, at the moment; we do have some players with potential
Henshaw will not be moved out to 13 because Ireland need his defensive solidarity there outside Sexton/Madigan/Jackson.He will eventually go to 13 because that will be his best position. Defensively it is the hardest position to perform and until Joe thinks he is ready he will pick Payne, if fit. As to new 12's to make that possible we have two very good prospects at Ulster - Olding and McCloskey who will be coming through in the coming year

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:19 pm

profitius wrote:
Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Has been played at 7 mostly this season and looks a fish out of water there. It should help his all round game though. Its not easy playing for Munster now especially for a played like JOD. Its like using a thoroughbred for a sulky race... with Foley on the back cracking the whip.

If that is a dig at Foley, its uncalled for bearing in mind that he would have coached POM & Stander who have both turned into pretty decent backrows. POM especially as he has had him from when he has had him from underage.

I'm talking about the style of play. JOD would prefer a more open, fast paced game.

I'm not sure you can blame Foley for not building a gameplan around one player (who is a 20 year old forward with less than 10 Munster caps)! Playing 7 might suit him actually - he could be our new David Wallace.

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:28 pm

[quote="geoff999rugby"][quote="Sin é"]

geoff999rugby wrote:
eirebilly wrote: Earls was also Irelands best back during the RWC, sure you can focus on that one dropped pass but even the blindest of the blind (Notch excluded ) must see that Earls actually performed well.

Henshaw for me - he made a difference.

Actually no back was anything other than, at best, average.
That was part of the problem.
Earls is a very good wing - he is not an international 13 and never will be.
The problem we have had a great of the game occupying that space for a decade and are still struggling to fill it.
Payne was chosen because he was the best defensively and the threes needed a talker to organise the line.
Going forward Henshaw is seen as the best prospect as he will be better suited to 13 than 12

Whatever your views of what position Earls should play (bear in mind that he played with Henshaw for the first time in the world cup as his centre partner), he is still Ireland best back. In your opinion not mine, and many others Well, I'll listen to the view of players whose views I respect - Peter Stringer & Ronan O'Gara (who said that Earls is the only Irish player that challenged BOD in training every time). This comment also explains why BOD ego doesn't want anyone thinking or saying anything good about Earls. He compares far better to Payne. I'd also like to point out that Schmidt seems to disagree with you as to how good Earls is bearing in mind he is the only back to start all world cup games.

Henshaw will not be moved out to 13 because Ireland need his defensive solidarity there outside Sexton/Madigan/Jackson.He will eventually go to 13 because that will be his best position. Defensively it is the hardest position to perform and until Joe thinks he is ready he will pick Payne, if fit. As to new 12's to make that possible we have two very good prospects at Ulster - Olding and McCloskey who will be coming through in the coming year McCloskey & Olding might not even be starting for Ulster when all players are fit.

by Guest Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:41 pm

Why should you respect the views of Stringer? I'm not saying he's not a good pundit, or that he is as one-eyed as you, it's just I don't know if his is an opinion that is generally respected.
O'Gara does have that respect, but you're quoting something said an age ago. It's not fresh and it's not relevant.
So I'm taking it that you don't respect the majority view, or those opinions that do carry weight, like BOD, and like Kinsella, whose views are much more respected? Why? Because they don't agree with you?

Earls is not the future for Ireland, and neither is Payne, although I do think Payne will likely last longer in a green shirt until we find a 12 (McCloskey or Olding? to take his place, with Henshaw moving to the outside.

Earls is a good player. He is a very good wing.

P.s I don't really like BOD as a pundit, but when I talks about centre, a position in which he was world class, I listen.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:58 pm

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:

I'm talking about the style of play. JOD would prefer a more open, fast paced game.

I'm not sure you can blame Foley for not building a gameplan around one player (who is a 20 year old forward with less than 10 Munster caps)!

You could drop the same argument about Schmidt v Zebo Wink

Isn't that the entire debate about Ireland? - too conservative a gameplan from the coach for young players with the desire to be off the cuff and creative? Penney would be annoyed at Foley for not giving them a gameplan to express themselves mad

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:01 pm

Hang on - why would BOD not like anyone to say anything good about Earls? Laugh

I can't believe the main topic of this thread is STILL discussing Keith Earls in the centre. Surely this argument been put to bed. This is why I am saying provincial bias is playing a factor, there are only one set of fans still rooting for Earls as our "best Irish back" and our best option at 13. There is literally no conceivable way a neutral fan could come to such a conclusion.

This will probably still be debated for the next World Cup. I despair.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:03 pm

Let's have our own opinions though guys Wink

BOD has his views, I'm finding I wouldn't agree with them all. Conor O'Shea has been a drone on RTE with his views - forever changing with the climate of the game he's watching...
...and as for this Kinsella youngling? What side has he coached? I kinda missed his long distinguished career with ball in hand and then as coach... I mustn't have been watching rugby that day Whistle

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:

I'm talking about the style of play. JOD would prefer a more open, fast paced game.

I'm not sure you can blame Foley for not building a gameplan around one player (who is a 20 year old forward with less than 10 Munster caps)!

You could drop the same argument about Schmidt v Zebo
Isn't that the entire debate about Ireland? - too conservative a gameplan from the coach for young players with the desire to be off the cuff and creative? Penney would be annoyed at Foley for not giving them a gameplan to express themselves

Well spotted Fly. Laugh

Schmidt plays a conservative game that actually suits the current team - branded as a risk free, talent sapping dictator who needs to play an expansive game that suits a very small number of our players.

Foley plays a conservative game and he is considered a smart coach who understands the "Munster Way". Why would he coach his team to play an expansive game for only a small number of players?

Wink

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:17 pm

Another centre who probably shouldn't be forgotten is Chris Farrell at Grenoble. He scored a try yesterday and he was a very promising player for Ulster. He seems to start in the 13 shirt for Grenoble, but I may be wrong? Is he first choice?

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:19 pm

Munchkin wrote:Why should you respect the views of Stringer? I'm not saying he's not a good pundit, or that he is as one-eyed as you, it's just I don't know if his is an opinion that is generally respected.
O'Gara does have that respect, but you're quoting something said an age ago. It's not fresh and it's not relevant.
So I'm taking it that you don't respect the majority view, or those opinions that do carry weight, like BOD, and like Kinsella, whose views are much more respected? Why? Because they don't agree with you?

BOD has gone down horribly in my estimation. From being just a poor pundit, he is now a bitter and twisted one who should be a bit more mindful of the influence he has. I rate Kinsella, Stringer and ROG (and I don't always agree with everything they write). Horgan is full of bluster.

ROG's comments about Earls was less than a year ago, so yes, relevant.

ROG wrote:We are all intrigued to see how Earls develops under Joe Schmidt, who he’s never played for. He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

Earls is not the future for Ireland, and neither is Payne, although I do think Payne will likely last longer in a green shirt until we find a 12 (McCloskey or Olding? to take his place, with Henshaw moving to the outside.

Earls is a good player. He is a very good wing.

P.s I don't really like BOD as a pundit, but when I talks about centre, a position in which he was world class, I listen.

Earls is our best back - the only back that Schmidt picked to start every game in the world cup.

You are contradicting yourself about BOD - you think he is a poor pundit, yet you think he is a good pundit with regard to centre? From what I can see he is just peed off that Earls has taken his try scoring record at a world cup in half the number of world cups that BOD was at!

by eirebilly Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:20 pm

Rory, I am struggling to find more than 1 or 2 comments stating that Earls is the best 13 Ireland have. What I am getting is that myself and more have said that Earls was the better option at 13 during the RWC but that does not mean he is the best option Ireland have. To me that is and remains Henshaw so I really am getting tired of reading about provincial bias accusations directed at Munster fans.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:24 pm

Well I'm finished talking about Keith Earls.

by Sin é Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:26 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:

I'm talking about the style of play. JOD would prefer a more open, fast paced game.

I'm not sure you can blame Foley for not building a gameplan around one player (who is a 20 year old forward with less than 10 Munster caps)!

You could drop the same argument about Schmidt v Zebo
Isn't that the entire debate about Ireland? - too conservative a gameplan from the coach for young players with the desire to be off the cuff and creative? Penney would be annoyed at Foley for not giving them a gameplan to express themselves

Well spotted Fly.

Schmidt plays a conservative game that actually suits the current team - branded as a risk free, talent sapping dictator who needs to play an expansive game that suits a very small number of our players.

Foley plays a conservative game and he is considered a smart coach who understands the "Munster Way". Why would he coach his team to play an expansive game for only a small number of players?

Munster have a conservative gameplan my arse. Recruiting Francis Saili or Tyler Bleyendaal to Munster isn't looking to be conservative. All cliched nonsense. Do you even watch Munster play?

As for Jack O'Donoghue - he got a fair bit of exposure at the end of last season for a 20 year old, now he is getting a chance to nail down the 7 jersey. Not bad for a 21 year old forward.

by SecretFly Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:55 pm

Don't be contradicting yourself Sin.
It's not me that said O'Donnell preferred a more open, fast paced game.
And it's not me either that then defended Foley by saying he can't be expected to build a gameplan around one player.

It's your implication there, not mine.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:04 am

SecretFly wrote:Don't be contradicting yourself Sin.
It's not me that said O'Donnell preferred a more open, fast paced game.
And it's not me either that then defended Foley by saying he can't be expected to build a gameplan around one player.

It's your implication there, not mine.

I don't get your point (other than trying to make a point out of nothing).

Tommy O'Donnell is injured (and yes, he is a very pacy no 7).

My view is that O'Donoghue is a very fine prospect and I think he is in good hands that his head coach was a very good back row himself. I like the idea that he is now getting a chance to aim for international honours by being competent in at least 2 positions (8 & 7). He hasn't looked as good at 7, as he has looked at 8 so far, but then he has only played 3 games at 7 so far.

My opinion is that if any game plan is built around anyone, it probably should be POM.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:04 am

Haven't watched them yet this season, Sin. Recruiting a few exciting players doesn't mean they are coached to play expansive rugby. Last season I would hardly have described Munster as playing a fast paced and open game. Apart from a few moments of individual brilliance from the likes of Keith Earls. Oops, mentioned him already.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:09 am

SecretFly wrote:Let's have our own opinions though guys BOD has his views, I'm finding I wouldn't agree with them all. Conor O'Shea has been a drone on RTE with his views - forever changing with the climate of the game he's watching...
...and as for this Kinsella youngling? What side has he coached? I kinda missed his long distinguished career with ball in hand and then as coach... I mustn't have been watching rugby that day

Kinsella's rugby career was curtailed by injury. I seem to recall he was a centre (probably vying with Earlsie in the Munster academy for a starting spot)!

and you know the old saying … you don't have to have fought in a war to actually write the history of it.

by eirebilly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:09 am

To me, Ireland going forwards have a bigger issue than the centres as there are enough there to have a strength in depth. 10 is the biggest worry for me. With Sexton back at Leinster, this pushes Madigan down the pecking order and he may not get enough game time and with Jackson seemingly not rated by Schmidt, what do Ireland do if Sexton gets injured?

I would like to see Madigan leave Leinster in order to get more game time at 10 and keep his match fitness up.

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:12 am

Sin é wrote:

My opinion is that if any game plan is built around anyone, it probably should be POM.

No. Your opinion is that the Irish 'gameplan' should be built around the attacking whims of gifted attacking minded players (Zebo Earls) And you constantly blame the coach for not giving in to the instincts of such players rather than trying to mould them into a plan that suits him and his team.

Thus we're back to Foley and you declaring he couldn't have been expected to adapt his gameplan to O'Donnell's natural preferences.

One Sin rule for one coach, one for another. Wink

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:17 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Let's have our own opinions though guys BOD has his views, I'm finding I wouldn't agree with them all. Conor O'Shea has been a drone on RTE with his views - forever changing with the climate of the game he's watching...
...and as for this Kinsella youngling? What side has he coached? I kinda missed his long distinguished career with ball in hand and then as coach... I mustn't have been watching rugby that day

Kinsella's rugby career was curtailed by injury. I seem to recall he was a centre (probably vying with Earlsie in the Munster academy for a starting spot)!

and you know the old saying … you don't have to have fought in a war to actually write the history of it.

Precisely. Tell that to DOD when he talks about school teachers Wink

Kinsella...he's the talk of the town because he's a kid of the generation...blogs, twitter... all that stuff. He's a hero of his generation. A new Thornley. Grand.
Would I take everything he says as Gospel? Hmmm, I doubt it - I don't even always believe everything you say Sin, (shock) and I'd read and enjoy an awful lot more of you..... Cool

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:21 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Haven't watched them yet this season, Sin. Recruiting a few exciting players doesn't mean they are coached to play expansive rugby. Last season I would hardly have described Munster as playing a fast paced and open game. Apart from a few moments of individual brilliance from the likes of Keith Earls. Oops, mentioned him already.

Well, at least offloading is encouraged. By recruiting players like Saili suggests the approach is to go for expansive rugby.
As a player, Foley could often be found out on the wing (from where he scored a lot of trys.

See Foley out on the wing here waiting for the ball to come out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFJX3JbO3vU

That was Munster back in 2000 when they supposedly only kicked the corners and played 10 man rugby.

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:24 am

eirebilly wrote:To me, Ireland going forwards have a bigger issue than the centres as there are enough there to have a strength in depth. 10 is the biggest worry for me. With Sexton back at Leinster, this pushes Madigan down the pecking order and he may not get enough game time and with Jackson seemingly not rated by Schmidt, what do Ireland do if Sexton gets injured?

I would like to see Madigan leave Leinster in order to get more game time at 10 and keep his match fitness up.

Not written in stone at all yet, billy. Sexton has been off colour now for quite a while. Perhaps the concussions have had a lingering effect on his confidence but he doesn't really attack games in the same way that he once did... (he's also hinted openly that he doesn't look forward to the attention he gets from the opposition who run down his channel. You might say an understandable emotion but a weakness declaring it). Hopefully he'll regain some true form playing with Leinster and back with players he's comfortable with.

But I'm not sure Cullen will be choosing an off-colour player just to humour Ireland. Madigan might have a bigger role than we think this season.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:27 am

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Let's have our own opinions though guys BOD has his views, I'm finding I wouldn't agree with them all. Conor O'Shea has been a drone on RTE with his views - forever changing with the climate of the game he's watching...
...and as for this Kinsella youngling? What side has he coached? I kinda missed his long distinguished career with ball in hand and then as coach... I mustn't have been watching rugby that day

Kinsella's rugby career was curtailed by injury. I seem to recall he was a centre (probably vying with Earlsie in the Munster academy for a starting spot)!

and you know the old saying … you don't have to have fought in a war to actually write the history of it.

Precisely. Tell that to DOD when he talks about school teachers

Kinsella...he's the talk of the town because he's a kid of the generation...blogs, twitter... all that stuff. He's a hero of his generation. A new Thornley. Grand.
Would I take everything he says as Gospel? Hmmm, I doubt it - I don't even always believe everything you say Sin, (shock) and I'd read and enjoy an awful lot more of you.....

Kinsella is rated because he does in-depth analysis that he probably learned how to do from being the subject of professional analysis himself.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:29 am

SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:To me, Ireland going forwards have a bigger issue than the centres as there are enough there to have a strength in depth. 10 is the biggest worry for me. With Sexton back at Leinster, this pushes Madigan down the pecking order and he may not get enough game time and with Jackson seemingly not rated by Schmidt, what do Ireland do if Sexton gets injured?

I would like to see Madigan leave Leinster in order to get more game time at 10 and keep his match fitness up.

Not written in stone at all yet, billy. Sexton has been off colour now for quite a while. Perhaps the concussions have had a lingering effect on his confidence but he doesn't really attack games in the same way that he once did... (he's also hinted openly that he doesn't look forward to the attention he gets from the opposition who run down his channel. You might say an understandable emotion but a weakness declaring it). Hopefully he'll regain some true form playing with Leinster and back with players he's comfortable with.

But I'm not sure Cullen will be choosing an off-colour player just to humour Ireland. Madigan might have a bigger role than we think this season.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sexton retired (due to all those concussions).

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:31 am

We're all capable of doing in-depth analysis, sin ...depending on how many times we re-look at games.

I know in here, by the way some of you talk, it's certain some of you look at a game maybe four or five times? Wink

We should do a Thread on that... a poll. "How many times would you usually look at one game?"

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:32 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:To me, Ireland going forwards have a bigger issue than the centres as there are enough there to have a strength in depth. 10 is the biggest worry for me. With Sexton back at Leinster, this pushes Madigan down the pecking order and he may not get enough game time and with Jackson seemingly not rated by Schmidt, what do Ireland do if Sexton gets injured?

I would like to see Madigan leave Leinster in order to get more game time at 10 and keep his match fitness up.

Not written in stone at all yet, billy. Sexton has been off colour now for quite a while. Perhaps the concussions have had a lingering effect on his confidence but he doesn't really attack games in the same way that he once did... (he's also hinted openly that he doesn't look forward to the attention he gets from the opposition who run down his channel. You might say an understandable emotion but a weakness declaring it). Hopefully he'll regain some true form playing with Leinster and back with players he's comfortable with.

But I'm not sure Cullen will be choosing an off-colour player just to humour Ireland. Madigan might have a bigger role than we think this season.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sexton retired (due to all those concussions).

Ha!! I agree with Sin. There's your proof boys. I value Sin more than Kin (sella)

by eirebilly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:37 am

My point being Fly, Leinster will have Ireland's number 1 and 2 fly halves. This is not good as far as I am concerned. Ireland need to keep Madigan match fit and I do not believe that Leinster will pick a semi fit Sexton over Madigan every day of the week. Madigan needs to go where he will get regular game time.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:41 am

SecretFly wrote:We're all capable of doing in-depth analysis, sin ...depending on how many times we re-look at games.

I know in here, by the way some of you talk, it's certain some of you look at a game maybe four or five times?

We should do a Thread on that... a poll. "How many times would you usually look at one game?"

You don't see a difference as to how Kinsella presents his analysis to how people voice their opinon here Laugh

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:44 am

SecretFly wrote:We're all capable of doing in-depth analysis, sin ...depending on how many times we re-look at games.

I know in here, by the way some of you talk, it's certain some of you look at a game maybe four or five times?

We should do a Thread on that... a poll. "How many times would you usually look at one game?"

I can say with great certainty there are probably one or two games I have ever watched more than once. I may check the highlights or a specific part of the game for clarity on certain things. I barely have enough time to watch rugby as it is!

by wolfball Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:47 am

You know the best way of escaping the Gordian knot of sin e's reasoning? Cut it (out).

Though while we have sin e ranking the respect of former players, which non-munster former player has views you respect? Sin e? Or crickets again followed by a reference to an AIL game in 2002 involving foley offloading from the wing?

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:47 am

eirebilly wrote:My point being Fly, Leinster will have Ireland's number 1 and 2 fly halves. This is not good as far as I am concerned. Ireland need to keep Madigan match fit and I do not believe that Leinster will pick a semi fit Sexton over Madigan every day of the week. Madigan needs to go where he will get regular game time.

Where would you want him to go? Another player going abroad? If he's happy where he is, he's happy where he is. That's the right environment.... both players of high value pushing each other................. especially in training.

People often fail to understand that is the very strength of the ABs. The talent hasn't been diluted into a number of squads. It's there in the one squad........... stuffed with talent..... a pressure cooker. They give each other more high value games in training than they'll pretty much ever meet with the exception of one or two International sides having a very good day. Talent concentrated. Making the work behind the scenes high value.

by eirebilly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:52 am

SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:My point being Fly, Leinster will have Ireland's number 1 and 2 fly halves. This is not good as far as I am concerned. Ireland need to keep Madigan match fit and I do not believe that Leinster will pick a semi fit Sexton over Madigan every day of the week. Madigan needs to go where he will get regular game time.

Where would you want him to go? Another player going abroad? If he's happy where he is, he's happy where he is. That's the right environment.... both players of high value pushing each other................. especially in training.

People often fail to understand that is the very strength of the ABs. The talent hasn't been diluted into a number of squads. It's there in the one squad........... stuffed with talent..... a pressure cooker. They give each other more high value games in training than they'll pretty much ever meet with the exception of one or two International sides having a very good day. Talent concentrated. Making the work behind the scenes high value.

Connacht? Maybe even Muster?

The AB's do not all play in one team Fly...

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:52 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:We're all capable of doing in-depth analysis, sin ...depending on how many times we re-look at games.

I know in here, by the way some of you talk, it's certain some of you look at a game maybe four or five times?

We should do a Thread on that... a poll. "How many times would you usually look at one game?"

You don't see a difference as to how Kinsella presents his analysis to how people voice their opinon here

Oh did I interrupt Lurve pangs?? Wink

Murray looks at videos over and over and dissects what he sees. You've obviously never been to too many Specific Ref Decision topics on old 606!!!!! I'd say Murray is an amateur to some 606ers on here. Wink

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:54 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:We're all capable of doing in-depth analysis, sin ...depending on how many times we re-look at games.

I know in here, by the way some of you talk, it's certain some of you look at a game maybe four or five times?

We should do a Thread on that... a poll. "How many times would you usually look at one game?"

I can say with great certainty there are probably one or two games I have ever watched more than once. I may check the highlights or a specific part of the game for clarity on certain things. I barely have enough time to watch rugby as it is!

I'm with you Rory!

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:58 am

eirebilly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:My point being Fly, Leinster will have Ireland's number 1 and 2 fly halves. This is not good as far as I am concerned. Ireland need to keep Madigan match fit and I do not believe that Leinster will pick a semi fit Sexton over Madigan every day of the week. Madigan needs to go where he will get regular game time.

Where would you want him to go? Another player going abroad? If he's happy where he is, he's happy where he is. That's the right environment.... both players of high value pushing each other................. especially in training.

People often fail to understand that is the very strength of the ABs. The talent hasn't been diluted into a number of squads. It's there in the one squad........... stuffed with talent..... a pressure cooker. They give each other more high value games in training than they'll pretty much ever meet with the exception of one or two International sides having a very good day. Talent concentrated. Making the work behind the scenes high value.

Connacht? Maybe even Muster?

The AB's do not all play in one team Fly...

I'm saying the ABs are a blueprint............................. largely ignored for four years...inexplicably to me!. If I was a Murray Kinsella obsessive repeat watcher I'd tear apart New Zealand.................. That's the blueprint. The squad is the key. Better in themselves than most of what they'll ever meet. Here if we have two good 13s or two good 10................. exile for one is always the call. No keep them together. Let them add the pressures in training.

by SecretFly Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:01 am

By the way, I wouldn't mind Connacht or Munster on principle...if he wanted to go.

I'd be very against the suggestion that he should hop away abroad to bring value to some rival team in either France or England. If that was his wish again, then fine - I'd live with it.

But I see the better model being the consolidation of high value players here in the Provinces BUT to genuinely rotate them. This nailed-on starter business is old fashioned. Let's have more nailed-ons coming in from the bench more regularly.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:03 am

wolfball wrote:You know the best way of escaping the Gordian knot of sin e's reasoning? Cut it (out).

Though while we have sin e ranking the respect of former players, which non-munster former player has views you respect? Sin e? Or crickets again followed by a reference to an AIL game in 2002 involving foley offloading from the wing?

Shane Jennings is excellent and Jackman is fairly good as well. I'd rate Conor O'Shea as well. Matt Williams (former Leinster coach) can be good although I find his accent really annoying.

by Sin é Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:12 am

Interesting that a former Munster player (his full pro career), video analyst and backs coach, (Jason Holland) has been appointed backs coach of the Hurricanes.

by Guest Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:18 am

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Why should you respect the views of Stringer? I'm not saying he's not a good pundit, or that he is as one-eyed as you, it's just I don't know if his is an opinion that is generally respected.
O'Gara does have that respect, but you're quoting something said an age ago. It's not fresh and it's not relevant.
So I'm taking it that you don't respect the majority view, or those opinions that do carry weight, like BOD, and like Kinsella, whose views are much more respected? Why? Because they don't agree with you?

BOD has gone down horribly in my estimation. From being just a poor pundit, he is now a bitter and twisted one who should be a bit more mindful of the influence he has. I rate Kinsella, Stringer and ROG (and I don't always agree with everything they write). Horgan is full of bluster.

ROG's comments about Earls was less than a year ago, so yes, relevant.

ROG wrote:We are all intrigued to see how Earls develops under Joe Schmidt, who he’s never played for. He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

Earls is not the future for Ireland, and neither is Payne, although I do think Payne will likely last longer in a green shirt until we find a 12 (McCloskey or Olding? to take his place, with Henshaw moving to the outside.

Earls is a good player. He is a very good wing.

P.s I don't really like BOD as a pundit, but when I talks about centre, a position in which he was world class, I listen.

Earls is our best back - the only back that Schmidt picked to start every game in the world cup.

You are contradicting yourself about BOD - you think he is a poor pundit, yet you think he is a good pundit with regard to centre? From what I can see he is just peed off that Earls has taken his try scoring record at a world cup in half the number of world cups that BOD was at!

It's a bit of a stretch to call BOD a bitter and twisted man, Sin é. I don't get that impression at all. He believes Ireland were weaker without Payne, and with Earls. He is hardly alone in that opinion, and why would he give credit to Payne if he was a bitter and Twisted man?

Kinsella is great because he really gets into the detail with his analysis.

Fly, why would Kinsella need to come from a strong playing background? Mourinho never made it to professional football as a player, but that didn't seem to hinder him as a coach.

ROGs comments were less than a year ago. ROG didn't train with Payne, and less than a year ago was obviously outside of the warm ups and the world cup. What are ROGs thoughts on the Payne/Earls debate now? If ROGs was to come out now and say Earls isn't as good as Payne, would you agree? If ROG said that Earls isn't good enough to play at centre for Ireland, would you agree?

Earls is not our best back. The only reason he was picked to play all those games was because Payne was injured. Otherwise Earls wouldn't have been playing in the big games. He wouldn't have played v Itlay, or France. That much is obvious.

I am not contradicting myself with BOD. BOD isn't a good commentator, but he quite plainly knows what he is talking about when speaking about the position he was world class in. Not that his experience means that we have to agree with everything he says, but it does mean that his opinion is worth listening too.

Yeah, I'm sure BOD is jealous of Earls Laugh

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