Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

rodders wrote:I still can't believe we lost that game to Scotland after the foot and mouth outbreak. Gutted.

Argentina clearly caught us cold and we thought we were in the next round already. One of the hardest defeats to take in our World Cup history. But enough about Lens 1999...

I was sickened by the '07 French game. I didn't think I could ever be more disappointed. But nothing matches the trauma of the '13 defeat to the All Blacks.

FecklessRogue wrote:I was sickened by the '07 French game. I didn't think I could ever be more disappointed. But nothing matches the trauma of the '13 defeat to the All Blacks.

Yup you're right that was the worst. What the hell were we doing turning that ball over with a minute to go - who coached those eejits...oh wait....

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

JS = EOS (except Eddie's teams played more attractive rugby).

You could be right,EoS was had us playing good consistent rugby for years just got unlucky with points difference costing us dearly at times.In fact had he not been unlucky enough to have an injured BoD for the 2007 game v France we would have won the GS,it still shouldn't have mattered except for PoC choked on the last kickoff.

That's the difference in the luck DK had,BoD was fit and dragged the team over the line when RoG choked v England in 09,in 07 BoD was injured and when PoC choked we lost the Slam.

And I suppose ROG dragged Ireland over the line with the drop goal for the GS   BOD wins championships, ROG wins Grand Slam

By the way, ROG's last kick v. England was what won the game. (By the way, where was BOD for Delon Armitage's try)? ROG was the last Irishman to score with a penalty at 70 mins. Thats what won the game.

So one moment at the end of the game is the be all and end all,you'll agree that PoC cost Ireland a Grand Slam in 2007 so?

ROG had a poor kicking game by his high standards v England , but he nailed it when he needed to do it.

Not sure what you are talking about about POC responsible for the loss against France. Wasn't it down to a missed tackle by John Hayes.

Hey sin have you seen ROGs words about our game plan? Intresting read

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:ASLS you attack Sin É (and myself) for provincial bias etc however you havent answered any of the fundamental issues concerning the World Cup and the type of rugby we play.

What fundamental issues are you talking about.That defeat was a bolt out of the blue,our defense hasn't been blown apart like that before and I would hope it won't be again so that's not a fundamental issue.Our attack functioned reasonably well,we scored 2 good tries (one even included an offload which Sin é would have us believed are outlawed) and put the Argies under pressure but our halfbacks made costly mistakes which put the team under pressure and again the defense wasn't good enough.

I am reasonably happy with where we are (sick about losing the QF obviously but I don't feel despair at where the team is headed like I did when contemplating another year of DK post 2011),now if we get blown apart like that again in the 6N then I will start to question why nothing has been done to fix the problem but until then that match stands out as an aberration.

Fair enough if you like the current way we play and the current direction. I was happy with it (albeit expecting a little more in terms of attacking). I do think that the 6ns is not a good yardstick for us and would expect us to at least win 4 and maybe the GS. Even if we only won three I wouldnt be too concerned. However I would be concerned if we use the same tactics and have not at least added something to the gameplan other than ball protection and ball leathering. The trip to SA will be interesting and give a better idea of where we are at in the overall scheme of things. Cos as has been proven we dont have the game plan for a tournament like the WC.

it will be interesting who he replaces Les Kiss with who I think is one of the problems. If by the AIs next year we are playing the same turgid style (with some of the same players) then I think the writing will be on the wall.

Agree with that. The style is good when we win but boy it is not entertaining.

As usual the SH have shown that we, and the rest of the NH, are behind the curve tactically and we need to adapt.

That defeat was not a one off it exposed deficiencies that were becoming apparent but we didn't need to address because none of the rest of the NH were good enough to exploit

2016 will be test of how good a coach Joe really is.
The good news is he is a smart man and has the ability to adapt

Do we have the players to play more heads up attacking rugby? And an even bigger question, do the fans have the patience to accept any short term losses in trying to evolve our style of play?

ME-109 wrote:
Fair enough if you like the current way we play and the current direction. I was happy with it (albeit expecting a little more in terms of attacking). I do think that the 6ns is not a good yardstick for us and would expect us to at least win 4 and maybe the GS. Even if we only won three I wouldnt be too concerned. However I would be concerned if we use the same tactics and have not at least added something to the gameplan other than ball protection and ball leathering. The trip to SA will be interesting and give a better idea of where we are at in the overall scheme of things. Cos as has been proven we dont have the game plan for a tournament like the WC.

it will be interesting who he replaces Les Kiss with who I think is one of the problems. If by the AIs next year we are playing the same turgid style (with some of the same players) then I think the writing will be on the wall.

Yeah can't really disagree with that,it's not that I like the current way we play,it's just that I think I can see us evolving into a more attacking force.I will hold my hands up and admit it's happening far slower than I expected but i do think it's happening.

ROG seems to lime the way Joe has us playing. And thinks thegap betwix north and south aint that big at all

geoff999rugby wrote:Agree with that. The style is good when we win but boy it is not entertaining.

As usual the SH have shown that we, and the rest of the NH, are behind the curve tactically and we need to adapt.

That defeat was not a one off it exposed deficiencies that were becoming apparent but we didn't need to address because none of the rest of the NH were good enough to exploit

2016 will be test of how good a coach Joe really is.
The good news is he is a smart man and has the ability to adapt

Can I ask what deficencies you mean exactly?Are you talking about our attacking play or our defense which I don't think has really been showing too many deficencies before this.

geoff999rugby wrote:Agree with that. The style is good when we win but boy it is not entertaining.

As usual the SH have shown that we, and the rest of the NH, are behind the curve tactically and we need to adapt.

That defeat was not a one off it exposed deficiencies that were becoming apparent but we didn't need to address because none of the rest of the NH were good enough to exploit

2016 will be test of how good a coach Joe really is.
The good news is he is a smart man and has the ability to adapt

Fully agree. It feels like we are 2 seasons behind the SH and rugby championship in style of play. Though the rugby championship steals their stuff as well, they pinch it from australian rugby league and are usually a season and a half behind them.

Maybe we should bypass our obsession with the men wearing black are doing now and focus on what the aussies do in RL next season as our basis for progression?

carpet baboon wrote:ROG seems to lime the way Joe has us playing. And thinks thegap betwix north and south aint that big at all

Wide enough to stop us jumping over.  And that's more than plenty to be going on for now.  What materials we're going to try and build the bridge with is the big issue now.  Matchsticks (if the gap is only inches) bricks, steel or ropes.

FecklessRogue wrote:Do we have the players to play more heads up attacking rugby? And an even bigger question, do the fans have the patience to accept any short term losses in trying to evolve our style of play?

I think the younger generation of players, aided by the wonderful world of the internet (Facebook/Youtube especially) and the popularity of rugby, are constantly exposed to heads up rugby played by their favourite teams and players. Many younger players are trying to emulate the exceedingly clever plays they see from their heroes week in week out, and I think that we will see that as the older generation move on, we will have some very exciting young players coming through the ranks.

A few years later these players will be more common. Currently, we do not have many players like this to choose from. Stuart Olding would already be there in my opinion if he wasn't so blighted with injuries. Until that time we are better suited sticking with a big, powerful and robust midfield who will break the gain line. The future will therefore be McCloskey/Henshaw. I would prefer to see Olding there because I love his style of play, but I fear he may not get over the injuries.

In my opinion, I prefer to see the forwards making the hard yards and breaking the gain line through powerful strides, with a quick and smart backline exploiting the gaps. However we currently do not have the players to cater to this sort of rugby.

It's doesn't matter who comes through in 2016. All those mentioned are certainly credible. But having watched the games this past month we have to start coaching differently from primary school if we want to catch up with the SH teams.

We are too slow and on average we don't take near as many opportunities to score as SH teams.

SH teams don't seem to miss opportunities to score. Principally for one reason: their execution of offloading in the tackle. NZ are the complete masters at it. We have to learn that skill from when we leave the pram.

Also the SH teams place with an edge / nasty factor that NH teams don't seem to have most of the time.

If I can find it there was a very good article on schools rugby in NZ in one of the papers. Will post it when/if I find it

Blanko wrote:It's doesn't matter who comes through in 2016. All those mentioned are certainly credible.  But having watched the games this past month we have to start coaching differently from primary school if we want to catch up with the SH teams.

We are too slow and on average we don't take near as many  opportunities to score as SH teams.

SH teams don't seem to miss opportunities to score. Principally for one reason: their execution of offloading in the tackle. NZ are the complete masters at it. We have to learn that skill from when we leave the pram.

Also the SH teams place with an edge / nasty factor that NH teams don't seem to have most of the time.

I actually think Ireland/Wales play with a lot of aggression and that is why we have been right up there with them. The problem is that the skill levels are on an entirely different level. We also do not have the players to coach a real clinical expansive game. That is the reality currently. Who would you trust in the current squad to play heads up rugby? I can only think of a few.

I'm watched Ulster last night and was again impressed by McCloskey. But every time he took the ball into contact he would go to ground. If he was able to learn to throw an offload while 2 or 3 players were hanging off him then he would elevate his game to the next level.

That said, currently, a partnership of McCloskey and Henshaw would do nothing for me. I don't think McCloskeys distribution is particularly good and Henshaw showed in the World Cup his isn't great for an international 12. If we want to play this expansive, flowing, 'heads up' rugby (whatever that actually means beyond people throwing out buzzwords they have read somewhere else) we need better distributors from 9-12. I'd take the Welsh halfbacks every day of the week over Murray and Sexton and I hope someone like Olding, who I have such high hopes for, recovers from his injuries and can become the sort of distributing 12 we need.

In fact, for those criticising Schmidt, he has done tremendously with what he has been given. He has turned 2 of our biggest strengths (the kick-chase and the line out/maul) into our most potent attacking weapons. I was excited to see Schmidt unleash some clever plays from the set piece as he did with Leinster this season, and we saw a few involving Henshaw mainly, but the reality is who is there to execute these plays? Jared Payne was one, his loss cannot be overstated enough.

I am excited for the future of Irish rugby and what Schmidt can do - but I am not expecting an entirely new game plan as we simply cannot facilitate it right now. McCloskey-Henshaw is the way forward and bringing Trimble back into the wing. Improving our defence, our ball carrying and improving what is already there. Meanwhile the young pretenders can build up experience and then we can look at a more expansive game plan. To be honest I fear that may happen after Schmidt has parted ways. The one player who I think could change things would be Stuart Olding at 12, but as I said before I don't know what his future holds or if he will even get a shot at 12 with McCloskey in form.

Exiled Gael wrote:I'm watched Ulster last night and was again impressed by McCloskey. But every time he took the ball into contact he would go to ground. If he was able to learn to throw an offload while 2 or 3 players were hanging off him then he would elevate his game to the next level.

That said, currently,  a partnership of McCloskey and Henshaw would do nothing for me. I don't think McCloskeys distribution is particularly good and Henshaw showed in the World Cup his isn't great for an international 12. If we want to play this expansive, flowing, 'heads up' rugby (whatever that actually means beyond people throwing out buzzwords they have read somewhere else) we need better distributors from 9-12. I'd take the Welsh halfbacks every day of the week over Murray and Sexton and I hope someone like Olding, who I have such high hopes for, recovers from his injuries and can become the sort of distributing 12 we need.  

Offloading is one of the most impressive aspects of McCloskey's game. His distribution is also very good. It probably hasn't been evident this season because Ulster in general have been dire and the support play nonexistent.

Rory you may be right on that front, I'm a Connacht man myself so I don't watch every Ulster match, but I do see a fair few. You will have seen more of him so I bow to you on the offloading. I have seen him play maybe 6/7 times and have seen him do it. It's not that I'm saying he doesn't, it's more that he needs to make better choices about when to do it. He could certainly do it more. Irish rugby has a safety first mentality that long precedes the current coaching setup. Gordon D'arcy in the Irish Times referred to Ireland having a rucking culture. A culture in any sense takes a long time to overcome.

My question really is this: if we accept that we need to change the culture and improve coaching to young players to improve their basic skills, then we must also accept that you are really talking about two (at least) World Cups before that generation of players will come through to senior level. What do we do in the interim? I just don't accept that we 'need' to play an expansive attacking game. If people are saying our players simply aren't as good as players in the Southern Hemisphere then that surely necessitates playing a lower risk game that hides our weaknesses and emphasises our strengths? Isn't that what Schmidt was doing? Personally with an Ireland team that carries Ross, a second row with few ball playing skills, has an axis of Murray-Sexton-Henshaw, and has a cabal of average to decent wingers, how can we expect a free flowing expansive game?

Exiled Gael wrote:Rory you may be right on that front, I'm a Connacht man myself so I don't watch every Ulster match, but I do see a fair few. You will have seen more of him so I bow to you on the offloading. I have seen him play maybe 6/7 times and have seen him do it. It's not that I'm saying he doesn't, it's more that he needs to make better choices about when to do it. He could certainly do it more. Irish rugby has a safety first mentality that long precedes the current coaching setup. Gordon D'arcy in the Irish Times referred to Ireland having a rucking culture. A culture in any sense takes a long time to overcome.  

My question really is this: if we accept that we need to change the culture and improve coaching to young players to improve their basic skills, then we must also accept that you are really talking about two (at least) World Cups before that generation of players will come through to senior level. What do we do in the interim? I just don't accept that we 'need' to play an expansive attacking game. If people are saying our players simply aren't as good as players in the Southern Hemisphere then that surely necessitates playing a lower risk game that hides our weaknesses and emphasises our strengths? Isn't that what Schmidt was doing? Personally with an Ireland team that carries Ross, a second row with few ball playing skills, has an axis of Murray-Sexton-Henshaw, and has a cabal of average to decent wingers, how can we expect a free flowing expansive game?

Completely agree. I am optimistic that it may be closer than you think however, before we get these players. Next World Cup I would imagine we will have a lot of these players scattered throughout the team. Ringrose could be something special, and we have both already said that Olding is perfect for the 12 shirt but I seriously fear that he won't have a career there. He is very powerful in contact which is necessary at test level but will his knees cope with carrying into heavy traffic? I have a feeling he may be permanently moved to fullback.

Are there any other talented 2nd 5/8 style 12s available apart from Olding?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are there any other talented 2nd 5/8 style 12s available apart from Olding?

Hanrahan could play there and its probably Madigans best position because it lets him do what he is good at without having to control the game.

Schmidt needs to change his whole rugby philosophy. There are skilful players available but they have been ignored for the more defensively minded performers. DOD gave a link to a Munster try v. Toulouse back in 2000 when Munster had Jason Holland as the only non-Irish signing and they were well able to offload effectively. Back then, Munster was regarded as just a 10 man rugby outfit.

As for Payne - he really isn't a 13. This is what Peter Stringer said of him back in September.

Peter Stringer wrote:Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.
When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.
He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.

profitius wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are there any other talented 2nd 5/8 style 12s available apart from Olding?

Hanrahan could play there and its probably Madigans best position because it lets him do what he is good at without having to control the game.

Hanrahan considers himself a 10 and one of the reasons why he left Munster is to get more game time at 10. According to ROG, Madigan is not an international standard 12 (that he would get away with it at club level though).

Henshaw is going to be left at 12 for the next couple of years at least because of his physique.

Hey, just wondering if anyone knows whether Peter Stringer has made any comments about Jared Payne in the recent past? I've been reading through the thread and haven't found any reference to it. Thanks

Jared Payne is injured, so Peter wouldn't be one to critique him if he isn't playing.

Sin é wrote:Schmidt needs to change his whole rugby philosophy. There are skilful players available but they have been ignored for the more defensively minded performers. DOD gave a link to a Munster try v. Toulouse back in 2000 when Munster had Jason Holland as the only non-Irish signing and they were well able to offload effectively. Back then, Munster was regarded as just a 10 man rugby outfit.

As for Payne - he really isn't a 13. This is what Peter Stringer said of him back in September.

Peter Stringer wrote:Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.
When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.
He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.

What skilful players are you referring to? Apart from the typical mention of Simon Zebo. It needs to start with the pack and the breakdown, followed by the halfbacks and midfield. Changing our wingers won't do a whole lot, expect for Trimble who suits the current model due to his physicality. I actually think we have a lot of players in the pack very capable of expansive rugby, such as POM and Henderson, but we also have some very weak players in open play such as Mike Ross. Healy is woefully off form as well.

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Anyway, I would bet my house that Henshaw will move out to 13 over the next few seasons, with the hope he will have the same sort of vision as Jared Payne. He will likely start there for Connacht and eventually Ireland if he can continue his form. Plus Stuart McCloskey is a much better option at 12 for various reasons, if you want a real physical option at 12.

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are there any other talented 2nd 5/8 style 12s available apart from Olding?

Hanrahan could play there and its probably Madigans best position because it lets him do what he is good at without having to control the game.

Hanrahan considers himself a 10 and one of the reasons why he left Munster is to get more game time at 10. According to ROG, Madigan is not an international standard 12 (that he would get away with it at club level though).

Henshaw is going to be left at 12 for the next couple of years at least because of his physique.

Poor move as he doesn't seem to be getting game time at all, from what I am hearing.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are there any other talented 2nd 5/8 style 12s available apart from Olding?

Hanrahan could play there and its probably Madigans best position because it lets him do what he is good at without having to control the game.

Hanrahan considers himself a 10 and one of the reasons why he left Munster is to get more game time at 10. According to ROG, Madigan is not an international standard 12 (that he would get away with it at club level though).

Henshaw is going to be left at 12 for the next couple of years at least because of his physique.

Poor move as he doesn't seem to be getting game time at all, from what I am hearing.

It could be. We'll know better by christmas but they've only played 1 game this season so its a wee bit early to know.


Ringrose was MOTM last night for Leinster. Theres a player who can offload!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are there any other talented 2nd 5/8 style 12s available apart from Olding?

Hanrahan could play there and its probably Madigans best position because it lets him do what he is good at without having to control the game.

Hanrahan considers himself a 10 and one of the reasons why he left Munster is to get more game time at 10. According to ROG, Madigan is not an international standard 12 (that he would get away with it at club level though).

Henshaw is going to be left at 12 for the next couple of years at least because of his physique.

Poor move as he doesn't seem to be getting game time at all, from what I am hearing.

Its only the 2nd game of the season and he is on the bench today v Falcons. The Saints are winning 13-3 at the moment. Last week the match was very close so its understandable that he wasn't brought on for the loss to Worchester.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Schmidt needs to change his whole rugby philosophy. There are skilful players available but they have been ignored for the more defensively minded performers. DOD gave a link to a Munster try v. Toulouse back in 2000 when Munster had Jason Holland as the only non-Irish signing and they were well able to offload effectively. Back then, Munster was regarded as just a 10 man rugby outfit.

As for Payne - he really isn't a 13. This is what Peter Stringer said of him back in September.

Peter Stringer wrote:Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.
When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.
He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.

What skilful players are you referring to? Apart from the typical mention of Simon Zebo. It needs to start with the pack and the breakdown, followed by the halfbacks and midfield. Changing our wingers won't do a whole lot, expect for Trimble who suits the current model due to his physicality. I actually think we have a lot of players in the pack very capable of expansive rugby, such as POM and Henderson, but we also have some very weak players in open play such as Mike Ross. Healy is woefully off form as well.

Definitely Zebo and Earls are very skilful (they both can pass, kick and offload) - but I'll mention the players who I think are definitely not skilful - D Kearney, A Trimble, Rob Kearney top the list. Nearly all of the players involved could manage an offload though, but they seem to be forbidden. I have said the model will have to change.  Here is the clip again of that Munster try down in Toulouse - thats the kind of rugby Ireland can play. i.e., look for space, not contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J9ylRxyy2w

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Peter Stringer was not speaking from any provincial bias (in the article he assumed that Earls would be starting on the wing, but thought that he should be starting in the centre).

Anyway, I would bet my house that Henshaw will move out to 13 over the next few seasons, with the hope he will have the same sort of vision as Jared Payne. He will likely start there for Connacht and eventually Ireland if he can continue his form. Plus Stuart McCloskey is a much better option at 12 for various reasons, if you want a real physical option at 12.

Maybe Henshaw will be moved out. I just looked up an old interview with Jared Payne before his Ireland start at 13 and all he talks about is defence at 13. From that interview, the carrot to come over here was the promise of the 13 jersey when BOD retired.

Hanrahan on now (at 33 mins for George Pisi).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

I agree with you Rory, I really believe an Olding who gets over his injuries is the sort of 12 we need. But McCloskey may be a different sort of alternative. One thing that has surprised me is that Schmidt has not picked 'horses for courses' type teams. There may be games where Olding or McCloskey may be picked alongside Henshaw or Payne. Schmidt really should have looked at his backrow more as to when to pick Henry or SOB or POM in the 6&7 slots depending on the opposition.

On the 2nd 5/8 positions, for a start I love that you use that terminology! As I've said above Olding is a prime contender in that role. I actually think Noel Reid had real potential there. It is a massive season for him. D'Arcy referred to him as Ireland's best passing centre (or words to similar effect) in an article this week. Alternatively, is this the season Leinster and Ireland finally pull the trigger on Fitzgerald as a 12? I've always had high hopes for Hanrahan but I think he has made a bad move to Northampton. If he can't get past Stephen Myler then he will not progress, he could come back to Ireland at 25/26 with his tail between his legs. I prefer him at 12 rather than 10 but hopefully he can push on because he is the sort of 10 Ireland sorely need if he can develop the game management skills which I don't think a 10 can really fully develop until later (Wilkinson and Carter aside). I worry that unless he nails down one position he will end up like Earls or Fitzgerald whose careers will have never met their early potential.

Exiled Gael wrote:I agree with you Rory, I really believe an Olding who gets over his injuries is the sort of 12 we need. But McCloskey may be a different sort of alternative. One thing that has surprised me is that Schmidt has not picked 'horses for courses' type teams. There may be games where Olding or McCloskey may be picked alongside Henshaw or Payne. Schmidt really should have looked at his backrow more as to when to pick Henry or SOB or POM in the 6&7 slots depending on the opposition.

On the 2nd 5/8 positions, for a start I love that you use that terminology! As I've said above Olding is a prime contender in that role. I actually think Noel Reid had real potential there. It is a massive season for him. D'Arcy referred to him as Ireland's best passing centre (or words to similar effect) in an article this week. Alternatively, is this the season Leinster and Ireland finally pull the trigger on Fitzgerald as a 12? I've always had high hopes for Hanrahan but I think he has made a bad move to Northampton. If he can't get past Stephen Myler then he will not progress, he could come back to Ireland at 25/26 with his tail between his legs. I prefer him at 12 rather than 10 but hopefully he can push on because he is the sort of 10 Ireland sorely need if he can develop the game management skills which I don't think a 10 can really fully develop until later (Wilkinson and Carter aside). I worry that unless he nails down one position he will end up like Earls or Fitzgerald whose careers will have never met their early potential.

Unfortunately Noel Reid is turning into a Leinster version of Ian Humphreys,looks very good with the ball but his tackling just isn't close to the standard needed.He's been a bit of a turnstile at Pro12 level,I'd hate to see what would happen if he played a serious international.

Dan Carter played as 2nd 5/8 for his first 14 caps between Tana Umaga and Carlos Spencer. His first couple of seasons with the Crusaders were also at 12. Tana Umaga spent a good bit of time on the wing before he moved in as well. They expect their players to be able to play multiple positions (and you see the more skillful guys like Fitzgerald, Earls & Zebo can do this - Zebo played his first game at fullback against SA and put in a very credible performance).

I read an interview with Conrad Smith (discussing the lack of candidates to take over from him) and he said the big problem with playing some young guy in the centre is that they were bound to make an error and then everyone jumps on their back destroying their confidence.

eirebilly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

Okay I'll explain. Many of the Munster fans calling for him to be dropped are also claiming that Earls is the better alternative. How anyone can come to that conclusion after what they have witnessed this World Cup is mind boggling. I also find it hilarious that some people are still describing Earls as possessing a good offloading game. Throwing the ball mindlessly when going to ground isn't offloading, it is throwing the ball away mindlessly. I am a big fan of Keith Earls but I have found his comeback to test rugby very disappointing against the bigger sides, and I am gutted to see he still has the same issues he has always had.

But really, do people honestly expect Ireland to become a better, more expansive side with the addition of Earls and Zebo? Come on.

Exiled Gael wrote:I agree with you Rory, I really believe an Olding who gets over his injuries is the sort of 12 we need. But McCloskey may be a different sort of alternative. One thing that has surprised me is that Schmidt has not picked 'horses for courses' type teams. There may be games where Olding or McCloskey may be picked alongside Henshaw or Payne. Schmidt really should have looked at his backrow more as to when to pick Henry or SOB or POM in the 6&7 slots depending on the opposition.

On the 2nd 5/8 positions, for a start I love that you use that terminology! As I've said above Olding is a prime contender in that role. I actually think Noel Reid had real potential there. It is a massive season for him. D'Arcy referred to him as Ireland's best passing centre (or words to similar effect) in an article this week. Alternatively, is this the season Leinster and Ireland finally pull the trigger on Fitzgerald as a 12? I've always had high hopes for Hanrahan but I think he has made a bad move to Northampton. If he can't get past Stephen Myler then he will not progress, he could come back to Ireland at 25/26 with his tail between his legs. I prefer him at 12 rather than 10 but hopefully he can push on because he is the sort of 10 Ireland sorely need if he can develop the game management skills which I don't think a 10 can really fully develop until later (Wilkinson and Carter aside). I worry that unless he nails down one position he will end up like Earls or Fitzgerald whose careers will have never met their early potential.

My opinions of what a midfield should look like are perhaps a bit outdated in the modern game, but I still prefer a skilful playmaking 12 and a 13 with a lot of pace and awareness. They both need to have "good enough" physicality in both attack and defence, but I really do not think it is essential to have a complete battering ram a la Jamie Roberts. You just have to be capable of making ground when the space isn't there and an aggressive defensive game. Olding is exceptional in this area, despite his small stature. He is built like a tank though. Ringrose by all accounts seems to be a very aggressive defender and certainly fits the bill for pace and awareness.

I guess the pack will also dictate the shape of the midfield. If your pack does not have a lot of aggressive ball carriers to make ground and punch holes in the midfield, then it probably is necessary to have a big hard running centre. Ulster probably need McCloskey to start at 12 because our pack is simply not good enough.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

Okay I'll explain. Many of the Munster fans calling for him to be dropped are also claiming that Earls is the better alternative. How anyone can come to that conclusion after what they have witnessed this World Cup is mind boggling. I also find it hilarious that some people are still describing Earls as possessing a good offloading game. Throwing the ball mindlessly when going to ground isn't offloading, it is throwing the ball away mindlessly. I am a big fan of Keith Earls but I have found his comeback to test rugby very disappointing against the bigger sides, and I am gutted to see he still has the same issues he has always had.

But really, do people honestly expect Ireland to become a better, more expansive side with the addition of Earls and Zebo? Come on.

I actually thought Earls did very well in the world cup - by far our best and most consistent back (and no, Luke Fitz's cameo doesn't really count because up to that he was poor). Henshaw played well, in a limited kind of way in that all he was asked to do was tackle and make hard yards in midfield. You do realise that offloading is forbidden by Schmidt, don't you?

Secondly, please stop bigging up all these young players who have barely played in the Pro12 where it is easy to look good because defences are not as well organised. They all have a long way to go yet. Gary Ringrose was excellent for Leinster last night, but he was out on the wing. How do you know he isn't the next Keith Earls?

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

As for Jared Payne, I genuinely cannot see a legitimate reason beyond provincial bias why anyone could possibly think he isn't currently the best option at 13 for this sort of game. He is one of the few Irish backs who actually does play heads up rugby, and with the skill to pull it off. If you want to see your wingers get space, he is your man. I was proven wrong numerous times by him over the course of last season for both Ulster and Ireland.

Care to explain how you see people who think that Payne is not the best option at 13 are being provincially biased? Most of the posters want to see Henshaw move to 13 and they're from all provinces...

Could it possibly be that you are being provincially biased for wanting an Ulster player at 13?

Okay I'll explain. Many of the Munster fans calling for him to be dropped are also claiming that Earls is the better alternative. How anyone can come to that conclusion after what they have witnessed this World Cup is mind boggling. I also find it hilarious that some people are still describing Earls as possessing a good offloading game. Throwing the ball mindlessly when going to ground isn't offloading, it is throwing the ball away mindlessly. I am a big fan of Keith Earls but I have found his comeback to test rugby very disappointing against the bigger sides, and I am gutted to see he still has the same issues he has always had.

But really, do people honestly expect Ireland to become a better, more expansive side with the addition of Earls and Zebo? Come on.

I actually thought Earls did very well in the world cup - by far our best and most consistent back (and no, Luke Fitz's cameo doesn't really count because up to that he was poor). Henshaw played well, in a limited kind of way in that all he was asked to do was tackle and make hard yards in midfield. You do realise that offloading is forbidden by Schmidt, don't you?

Secondly, please stop bigging up all these young players who have barely played in the Pro12 where it is easy to look good because defences are not as well organised. They all have a long way to go yet. Gary Ringrose was excellent for Leinster last night, but he was out on the wing. How do you know he isn't the next Keith Earls?

Did you even watch the games?

Which games? All of the 4 pro games Ringrose has played on the wing for Leinster?

Sin é wrote:Which games? All of the 4 pro games Ringrose has played on the wing for Leinster?

No the World Cup games,you know the ones where Henshaw made several offloads including one that put Earls in for a try,Fitzgerald also made an offload to create a try for Murphy against Argentina.Those games.

When it comes to Keith Earls, it doesn't really matter whether the nonsensical statement that offloading is forbidden by Schmidt is true or not; he simply isn't good at it. I for one would not want to see a team trying to throw needless "offloads" that are 50/50s the majority of the time. If they have the skill and are good at it then use it, but currently we do not have a whole lot of players who are particularly good at it. Besides, I really do not think our lack of an offloading game is the issue, it is much further down the list. We need players with good awareness and decision making skills firstly, not to mention the basic good hands and passing game.

I am merely giving an account of what I have been impressed by from a few young players who may possess these qualities. Stuart Olding has proven to me that he has got it and he has performed at a high level as well. The reality is that only injuries are holding him back. I'm convinced he is capable at Test level. If he isn't then I am wrong and we all move on. Which is what we should do regarding Keith Earls. Great squad player who can be a lethal finisher, but not someone we want to build our future backline around.

Sin - speaking of our young pretenders, how has JOD been getting on?

Keith Earls had a brilliant start to the World Cup then he had to move to 13 and he dropped off. It's not that he was bad, but he didn't do much either. We saw glimpses of his footwork and pace, but compared to the really devastating effect that can have on the wing it's easily bottled up when he's at 13. It's a real shame he was pressed into that position because he was looking really good on the wing- I'd rather see him be a quality international winger than a pretty average international centre. Slightly unfair to judge him on the Argentina game as I honestly think he was nowhere near fully fit for most of that match.

A simple question to all Ireland fans. Now that Poc as officialy retired from international rugby, who will be the captain?

And how many of this Irish team that played in this years rugby world cup, will retire from international rugby?

Why would a lot of them retire, majestic?  Some of them may not be at the next WC but no need for hasty retirements yet.

I'd say POM looks like the guy that would have the temperament and stature to takeover from Paulie if we wanted to have a new Captain in situ that would take on the role long term.

But of course again, one 'Captain' is never enough.  You need at least four of them throughout a team, leading from the front (or back) No team benefits from one strong leader leading a bunch of chickens needing to be led.

Our next Captain... I would say Heaslip in name, Best in deed.

As for retirements, don't expect any this summer. Can see Mike Ross going next summer. Don't think anyone else will be retiring before the next RWC unless forced to by injury.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Which games? All of the 4 pro games Ringrose has played on the wing for Leinster?

No the World Cup games,you know the ones where Henshaw made several offloads including one that put Earls in for a try,Fitzgerald also made an offload to create a try for Murphy against Argentina.Those games.

I think using the term several is pushing it a bit. As I posted the link to Ginger McLaughlins try against England it is a fact that in that 50 seconds there were more offload's than we carried out in the world cup.

Overall Earls did very well to say otherwise like Rory is to be disingenuous.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Which games? All of the 4 pro games Ringrose has played on the wing for Leinster?

No the World Cup games,you know the ones where Henshaw made several offloads including one that put Earls in for a try,Fitzgerald also made an offload to create a try for Murphy against Argentina.Those games.

Schmidt doesn't ban offloads but its common knowledge at this stage that he prefers the safety first option of going to ground and recycling the ball.