Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

In terms of attack of course, I do still see us suffering from the same things regardless of coaching staff- halfbacks that play at a fairly slow tempo, a shortage of centres with the full repertoire of skills you'd want them to have, a lot of backs who are poor decision makers on the ball, a lack of ball carriers in the backs, and a lack of genuine pace.

I don't expect us to be playing All Blacks rugby or manufacturing line break after line break any time soon. We play a style of rugby that emphasises our strengths not our weakness, but I do think the back line is making progress under Schmidt.

eirebilly wrote:I truly want Ireland to progress and do believe that Schmidt still is the best for the job and i do wish for a good 6N.

It just appears to me that similarities in results between DK and JS in the opening stages of their tenures are high. Time will tell but it just seems like we are going through the same things. Maybe its not a coaching thing but the culture in which the Irish players approach the game?

I don't see that at all,DK had one good season and the rest were poor to terrible with the odd good result papering over the cracks.JS has already backed up his successful first season with a successful 2nd one,the WC was a failure in my eyes but it says a lot when the low point of Schmidts reign is the same as the 2nd highest point of Kidney's.

Sin é wrote:
Ferris said it last week on radio, himself and O'Brien thought they were in a world cup semi before the Welsh game. Kidney lost a couple of key players as well in the world cup - remember Jerry Flannery & David Wallace? And even without them (and an outhalf who couldn't kick snow off a rope) they beat Australia in the SH. Ireland were destroyed by Argentina last weekend. Our worst lost ever in a world cup.

Yeah but BoD said it was because we had a crap coach ,oh wait am I misrepresenting something someone said to suit my own agenda?

I can't see much changing for the Six Nations. There are a few players I would like to see given a real chance to impress, even within the training squad. The standout players who I would like to see more of and who I think would greatly improve Irish rugby are as follows:

Martin Moore
Tagdh Furlong
Dan Leavy
Josh Van der Flier
Jack O'Donoghue
CJ Stander
Kieran Marmion
Stuart Olding
Stuart McCloskey
Garry Ringrose
Craig Gilroy (not all that young anymore, but potentially a potent weapon if the breakdown/halfbacks/midfield are sorted first)
Cian Kelleher (honestly I do not know a whole lot about this player but I've heard great things from those who know more)

I think that is a realistic group to look at over the next few seasons as well as this one, with the hope that more good options appear at hooker, the second row and the halfbacks. The other players already heavily involved who I believe need more time within the Irish setup are Iain Henderson (given a chance in the back row) and Paddy Jackson at 10. I would also like to see Simon Zebo on the left wing and Andrew Trimble on the right wing.

The only problem with Henderson in the back row would be that we would need more talented locks to come through the ranks. Are any of the young promising locks good enough to push for the Irish team anytime soon?

I should also note I don't see all of the players listed as having a realistic chance anytime soon in the first team. Injuries must also be considered and there will always be players in and out of form at different stages in their careers. However, these players will certainly push the starting team to perform much better, and depth is extremely important in the modern game.

A great example here would be Stuart Olding and Stuart McCloskey seemingly pushing Luke Marshall aside. Injuries also have played a huge part in this battle. It is a harsh world, but one that is necessary in order to improve the team and ensure healthy competition. Some players have been coasting for far too long. Personally I think it is great, and a coach like Schmidt will make ruthless decisions that will force players to constantly adapt and improve.

I hope that people will be on board with this, and leave provincial bias at the door. I think there are going to be some very, very tight calls made across the park, and there will be much gnashing of teeth. Bring it on, I say.

Personally I was pretty confident we would get at least to the semi and had been won over by Messer Schmidt and the way of playing.

At the moment I am not so sure and have some concerns.
We have one way of playing which is primarily about protecting the ball , taking it into contact, maintaining possession (manically) and using a kick chase game in certain situations. Its pretty effective in a lot of games but as with games against Wales and England over the last couple of years (including the warmups) once a team negates this we do not have an alternative. In the WC Italy actually gave Argentina a freeview on how to play Ireland specifically upfront. The difference being that Argentina had the players to execute.

Going forward I think there has to be a concern that Schmidt is incapable of coaching the team to play in any other way. Our back play is staid and easily read. We have one or two set moves but thats about it. Offloading is a complete no no, and individuality is frowned upon. Usually the Zebo example is given however can anyone ever remember the last time Conor Murray actually attempted a break?

However maybe we could be describing a coach who has taken a bunch of talented individuals and made them into winners playing a brand of exciting attacking rugby....or one who has taken a bunch of directionless no-hopers and made them hard to beat and more of an attacking threat. However that would be Cheika and Vern Cotter.

I think there is a concern that what we are seeing from Ireland is about it. The example of the Blues, Clermont and Leinster is there. The attacking play for Leinster was developed under Cheika the improvement Schmidt brought was in bringing the ball retention and Forward play to a higher level (dont believe me check out the amount of tries scored by backs v forwards after Schmidt took charge).

Comparisons with previous coaches will always be based on who prefers who but if examples of USA last time out are being given then the same can be said of Italy this time out. The fact is we did not win against a team higher ranked and we got stuffed by Argentina. While Joe apparently was unlucky to lose two games in the six nations, Kidney was "lucky" to win a GS whereas I suppose the Mike Phillips try in 2010 for example would be seen as Kidneys fault...

So lets see EOS won four games out of five in the 6ns two years in a row so in that way JS has luck on his side in terms of points scored. Hasnt got a GS, went out in the QF of the world cup. I dont see a huge difference with DK or EOS for that matter. The big thing now is whether we can improve because as has been shown the limited game we have is not going to get us very far in tournaments like the world cup. The 6ns and trip to SA next year will be fascinating. At the moment I think the jury is still out on the "greatest coach ever" tag but he is still in with a chance. Dont see it myself but genuinely hope I'm wrong.

Apart from Trimble, who has the power and aggression to make it work, I don't really see wingers as making too much of an impact or change in the current Irish setup until the other issues are sorted out. Trimble is perfect for the current Irish setup, but I would also like to see Zebo starting at 11 both for his playmaking and his kicking. He needs a bit of space to cause problems with his pace and footwork though, and currently he isn't getting that. Which is why Trimble/Kearney are both better options currently.

The objective now for Schmidt and players (whoever he chooses) is to find a serious method of judging real progress.

How many times do we have to go through this cycle before we realise the methods we choose to analyse ourselves in the lead-in to WCs aren't sufficient and just don't work.  

We constantly rate our abilities and gameplans only against NH opposition - lazily so in my opinion.  We keep falling into the trap, and we'll do it again in February.  
In a month or two the WC will be a distant memory, and we'll be back exclusively talking about our lovely traditional circus called the 6Ns.  And we'll crow about it being the biggest event in the yearly calendar and about it having a history and following that the 4N event could only ever dream about.
We'll have kick-chases again, and box kicks to nothing, and slow walks to lineouts, and slow walks to scrums, and plodding pace everywhere with only perhaps little 10 minute rushes to effect a score or two.  
We'll pace ourselves ruthlessly through the five games - always conscious of containing energy levels.  
We'll try again to win the competition by conserving as much energy as possible through the sequence of games, mostly saving ourselves for possibly one big strategic game that we'll land on either France, England or Wales.

The usual in other words, a celebration of NH rugby.  And dare anyone bring up memories of the WC then!  Don't spoil the fun.  Don't be a killjoy.  Leave it, and let's enjoy the traditions.  Rugby is more than winning!  It's culture, and identity, and having drinks in ancient cities with pals from the other NH Nations.  So stop trying to sour it.  

And the circus will proceed.  And another year will be lost in trying to gain experience of the true fighting and punishing efforts required to have even a hope in hell of getting to a semi-final in four year's time.

Ireland paid the price for rating their worth all through the two years of Schmidt's reign on NH opposition.  If we insist on using NH rugby as our test bed then from here on in only rampaging Grand Slams, with no 'rest' games of plod, will suffice.  And if we have injuries so be it.  Open up the cabinet and find replacements.  And demand from them the very same.  Total commitment and total 80 minute games, where the aim is to aggressively dominate every game not cling on. Lets see where our fitness levels really are when the bluff of slow games disguises it. Let's see how deep our depth is that was badly exposed last weekend. Let's see what we have in the tank from the off rather than waiting again until we're a year or two out.

If we bring this kind of intensity to our efforts for each of the next four years then we're still obviously not guaranteed 6Ns Grand Slams or even Championship wins, but I'd guarantee we'd be in a much stronger position to do something serious come the next WC.  Plus, we might actually enjoy watching Ireland play with such honest all out attacking fury - win or loss.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I don't see that at all,DK had one good season and the rest were poor to terrible with the odd good result papering over the cracks.JS has already backed up his successful first season with a successful 2nd one, the WC was a failure in my eyes but it says a lot when the low point of Schmidts reign is the same as the 2nd highest point of Kidney's.

In 2010, Ireland finished 2nd in the 6N behind an excellent French side that won the GS beating England away and France. The only blip was the final match against Scotland. I remember many (including many on here) having a go at DK that 6N for trying to play an expansive game stating that was not how Ireland played...

In 2011, Ireland had a poorer campaign but for a royal piece of cheekiness from a ball boy and Phillips, could have finished 2nd.

So to have a match up (excluding AI's)

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ---------- JS first year = 6N champions on points
DK second year = 2nd in 6N ------------ JS = 6N champions on points

I am not having a go at JS, I am simply trying to highlight the similarities between the two after their first two years in charge and the results are very similar. DK got Ireland very high in the rankings before sliding and so has JS.

I honestly do not see the massive progress under JS that many on here want to claim.

eirebilly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I don't see that at all,DK had one good season and the rest were poor to terrible with the odd good result papering over the cracks.JS has already backed up his successful first season with a successful 2nd one, the WC was a failure in my eyes but it says a lot when the low point of Schmidts reign is the same as the 2nd highest point of Kidney's.

In 2010, Ireland finished 2nd in the 6N behind an excellent French side that won the GS beating England away and France. The only blip was the final match against Scotland. I remember many (including many on here) having a go at DK that 6N for trying to play an expansive game stating that was not how Ireland played...

In 2011, Ireland had a poorer campaign but for a royal piece of cheekiness from a ball boy and Phillips, could have finished 2nd.

So to have a match up (excluding AI's)

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ----------   JS first year = 6N champions on points
DK second year = 2nd in 6N ------------ JS = 6N champions on points

I am not having a go at JS, I am simply trying to highlight the similarities between the two after their first two years in charge and the results are very similar. DK got Ireland very high in the rankings before sliding and so has JS.

I honestly do not see the massive progress under JS that many on here want to claim.

That's just not true Billser - Kidney went unbeaten in the calendar year 2009.

In 2010 we got walloped by France in the 6N and there after there was a season on season deterioration and there were only sporadic good performances.

In fact you could argue that Deccie built on the good work Bradley did in the summer 2008 tour and the longer he was in charge the worse things got - that the real upswing was caused by bringing in fresh blood like Bowe, Ferris, Rob Kearney etc.

By contrast after a poor start against the Wallabies in 2013 Ireland have been the most consistent they have ever been under Schmidt - until last week we hadn't lost a game by more than a single score and have only lost 4 games under Schmidt if you exclude the warm up games.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ferris said it last week on radio, himself and O'Brien thought they were in a world cup semi before the Welsh game. Kidney lost a couple of key players as well in the world cup - remember Jerry Flannery & David Wallace? And even without them (and an outhalf who couldn't kick snow off a rope) they beat Australia in the SH. Ireland were destroyed by Argentina last weekend. Our worst lost ever in a world cup.

Yeah but BoD said it was because we had a crap coach ,oh wait am I misrepresenting something someone said to suit my own agenda?

BOD was far too big for his own boots. Kidney major failing was he took far too much Poopie from him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I should also note I don't see all of the players listed as having a realistic chance anytime soon in the first team. Injuries must also be considered and there will always be players in and out of form at different stages in their careers. However, these players will certainly push the starting team to perform much better, and depth is extremely important in the modern game.

A great example here would be Stuart Olding and Stuart McCloskey seemingly pushing Luke Marshall aside. Injuries also have played a huge part in this battle. It is a harsh world, but one that is necessary in order to improve the team and ensure healthy competition. Some players have been coasting for far too long. Personally I think it is great, and a coach like Schmidt will make ruthless decisions that will force players to constantly adapt and improve.

I hope that people will be on board with this, and leave provincial bias at the door. I think there are going to be some very, very tight calls made across the park, and there will be much gnashing of teeth. Bring it on, I say.

I want to believe this, Schimdt now has the opportunity for this Six Nations to pick form and balance rather than err on the side of Leinster. I fully agreed with the rationale to have players who knew his systems in (maybe not so much in the case for Fitzgerald over Trimble for the squad, although Fitz had a decent World Cup) and a lot of them are marginal calls, but some of the long-term stalwarts might now need to be looked at in terms of not only if they are best for their position but also what they bring to the team. Some coasting on reputation from Lions Tours or World Cups past like R. Kearney and Healy. Could we see maybe Payne come in at 15? I'd be pleasantly surprised, and that's not any provincial bias!

Also want to ask Ulster fans if Gilroy should be getting his look in or what is stopping him? Never really had a bad game for Ireland I thought, sees to be scoring for fun in the Pro 12. Matt Healy at Connacht seems a similar type and has been very impressive over the last year and a bit.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ferris said it last week on radio, himself and O'Brien thought they were in a world cup semi before the Welsh game. Kidney lost a couple of key players as well in the world cup - remember Jerry Flannery & David Wallace? And even without them (and an outhalf who couldn't kick snow off a rope) they beat Australia in the SH. Ireland were destroyed by Argentina last weekend. Our worst lost ever in a world cup.

Yeah but BoD said it was because we had a crap coach ,oh wait am I misrepresenting something someone said to suit my own agenda?

BOD was far too big for his own boots. Kidney major failing was he took far too much Poopie from him.

Always wondered if BOD knew his stamp in Italy was essentially rubber-stamping Deccie's P45.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I don't see that at all,DK had one good season and the rest were poor to terrible with the odd good result papering over the cracks.JS has already backed up his successful first season with a successful 2nd one, the WC was a failure in my eyes but it says a lot when the low point of Schmidts reign is the same as the 2nd highest point of Kidney's.

In 2010, Ireland finished 2nd in the 6N behind an excellent French side that won the GS beating England away and France. The only blip was the final match against Scotland. I remember many (including many on here) having a go at DK that 6N for trying to play an expansive game stating that was not how Ireland played...

In 2011, Ireland had a poorer campaign but for a royal piece of cheekiness from a ball boy and Phillips, could have finished 2nd.

So to have a match up (excluding AI's)

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ----------   JS first year = 6N champions on points
DK second year = 2nd in 6N ------------ JS = 6N champions on points

I am not having a go at JS, I am simply trying to highlight the similarities between the two after their first two years in charge and the results are very similar. DK got Ireland very high in the rankings before sliding and so has JS.

I honestly do not see the massive progress under JS that many on here want to claim.

That's just not true Billser - Kidney went unbeaten in the calendar year 2009.

In 2010 we got walloped by France in the 6N and there after there was a season on season deterioration and there were only sporadic good performances.

In fact you could argue that Deccie built on the good work Bradley did in the summer 2008 tour and the longer he was in charge the worse things got - that the real upswing was caused by bringing in fresh blood like Bowe, Ferris, Rob Kearney etc.

By contrast after a poor start against the Wallabies in 2013 Ireland have been the most consistent they have ever been under Schmidt - until last week we hadn't lost a game by more than a single score and have only lost 4 games under Schmidt if you exclude the warm up games.

I hear what your saying Rodders........

Bradley for coach!

[quote="Sin é"]

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ferris said it last week on radio, himself and O'Brien thought they were in a world cup semi before the Welsh game. Kidney lost a couple of key players as well in the world cup - remember Jerry Flannery & David Wallace? And even without them (and an outhalf who couldn't kick snow off a rope) they beat Australia in the SH. Ireland were destroyed by Argentina last weekend. Our worst lost ever in a world cup.

Yeah but BoD said it was because we had a crap coach ,oh wait am I misrepresenting something someone said to suit my own agenda?

Could I be misremembering that ROG ended Humphreys international career by stamping his feet until he got what he wanted?

eirebilly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I don't see that at all,DK had one good season and the rest were poor to terrible with the odd good result papering over the cracks.JS has already backed up his successful first season with a successful 2nd one, the WC was a failure in my eyes but it says a lot when the low point of Schmidts reign is the same as the 2nd highest point of Kidney's.

In 2010, Ireland finished 2nd in the 6N behind an excellent French side that won the GS beating England away and France. The only blip was the final match against Scotland. I remember many (including many on here) having a go at DK that 6N for trying to play an expansive game stating that was not how Ireland played...

In 2011, Ireland had a poorer campaign but for a royal piece of cheekiness from a ball boy and Phillips, could have finished 2nd.

So to have a match up (excluding AI's)

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ----------   JS first year = 6N champions on points
DK second year = 2nd in 6N ------------ JS = 6N champions on points

I am not having a go at JS, I am simply trying to highlight the similarities between the two after their first two years in charge and the results are very similar. DK got Ireland very high in the rankings before sliding and so has JS.

I honestly do not see the massive progress under JS that many on here want to claim.

In 2010 Ireland won 3 matches in the 6N,getting thumped by a decent French side and losing at home to a poor Scottish side.That's a poor campaign and was the beginning of the inconsistency that was a hallmark of his teams post 2009.We could beat England away but lose to Scotland at home.

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ----------   JS first year = 6N champions on points

DK second year = 2nd in 6N with 3 wins and losing at home to Scotland,losing to the worst SA side I saw in over 10 years and getting hammered at home by NZ ------------ JS = 6N champions on points topping the group at the WC and getting hammered in the QF by Arg.

In JS 2nd year there has been one unacceptable performance and even that can be somewhat mitigated by the injuries suffered to key players.In DK's 2nd season there were 3 unacceptable losses and losing at home to that Scottish side was a low point on a par to losing to Italy,possibly worse since the injury excuse didn't apply.

Marshes wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I should also note I don't see all of the players listed as having a realistic chance anytime soon in the first team. Injuries must also be considered and there will always be players in and out of form at different stages in their careers. However, these players will certainly push the starting team to perform much better, and depth is extremely important in the modern game.

A great example here would be Stuart Olding and Stuart McCloskey seemingly pushing Luke Marshall aside. Injuries also have played a huge part in this battle. It is a harsh world, but one that is necessary in order to improve the team and ensure healthy competition. Some players have been coasting for far too long. Personally I think it is great, and a coach like Schmidt will make ruthless decisions that will force players to constantly adapt and improve.

I hope that people will be on board with this, and leave provincial bias at the door. I think there are going to be some very, very tight calls made across the park, and there will be much gnashing of teeth. Bring it on, I say.

I want to believe this, Schimdt now has the opportunity for this Six Nations to pick form and balance rather than err on the side of Leinster. I fully agreed with the rationale to have players who knew his systems in (maybe not so much in the case for Fitzgerald over Trimble for the squad, although Fitz had a decent World Cup) and a lot of them are marginal calls, but some of the long-term stalwarts might now need to be looked at in terms of not only if they are best for their position but also what they bring to the team. Some coasting on reputation from Lions Tours or World Cups past like R. Kearney and Healy. Could we see maybe Payne come in at 15? I'd be pleasantly surprised, and that's not any provincial bias!

Also want to ask Ulster fans if Gilroy should be getting his look in or what is stopping him? Never really had a bad game for Ireland I thought, sees to be scoring for fun in the Pro 12. Matt Healy at Connacht seems a similar type and has been very impressive over the last year and a bit.

Gilroy had a good start for Ireland in autumn internationals, but I think he looked a bit out of his depth the following 6Ns. That may have been down to him playing away from home and his inexperience, but he seems to have matured well since then.

Fitzgerald had a good finish to his world cup, but up to Argentinian game he was fairly average (and behind D Kearney). From what ROG has written about Luke, he seems to have unbelievable self-belief which is what you need in tournaments like that when the chips are down. He showed his worth and was a good selection. I would put Simon Zebo in the same category - great self belief and won't let his head drop. I really cannot see how Schmidt continues to ignore him for Dave Kearney. Then Schmidt ignores the solid Darran Cave and prefers Keith Earls in the centre.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I don't see that at all,DK had one good season and the rest were poor to terrible with the odd good result papering over the cracks.JS has already backed up his successful first season with a successful 2nd one, the WC was a failure in my eyes but it says a lot when the low point of Schmidts reign is the same as the 2nd highest point of Kidney's.

In 2010, Ireland finished 2nd in the 6N behind an excellent French side that won the GS beating England away and France. The only blip was the final match against Scotland. I remember many (including many on here) having a go at DK that 6N for trying to play an expansive game stating that was not how Ireland played...

In 2011, Ireland had a poorer campaign but for a royal piece of cheekiness from a ball boy and Phillips, could have finished 2nd.

So to have a match up (excluding AI's)

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ----------   JS first year = 6N champions on points
DK second year = 2nd in 6N ------------ JS = 6N champions on points

I am not having a go at JS, I am simply trying to highlight the similarities between the two after their first two years in charge and the results are very similar. DK got Ireland very high in the rankings before sliding and so has JS.

I honestly do not see the massive progress under JS that many on here want to claim.

In 2010 Ireland won 3 matches in the 6N,getting thumped by a decent French side and losing at home to a poor Scottish side.That's a poor campaign and was the beginning of the inconsistency that was a hallmark of his teams post 2009.We could beat England away but lose to Scotland at home.

DK first year = 6N GS and unbeaten year ----------   JS first year = 6N champions on points

DK second year = 2nd in 6N with 3 wins and losing at home to Scotland,losing to the worst SA side I saw in over 10 years and getting hammered at home by NZ ------------ JS = 6N champions on points topping the group at the WC and getting hammered in the QF by Arg.

In JS 2nd year there has been one unacceptable performance and even that can be somewhat mitigated by the injuries suffered to key players.In DK's 2nd season there were 3 unacceptable losses and losing at home to that Scottish side was a low point on a par to losing to Italy,possibly worse since the injury excuse didn't apply.

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

I don't think Gilroy's defence is good enough compared to some of the other options - so wouldn't have him ahead of any of the wingers in the world cup squad or Trimble.

That said he's still young and a if he tightens up a bit on his defence then he has a natural running ability and elusiveness that none of our other players have so would definitely bring something extra.

Not sure he will make the cut in the 6N but maybe might make the summer tour - don't think he is too far off - also I really rate Matt Healy but wing is a really competitive position.

Not sure how long Bowe will be around for - he's already lost a yard of pace and yet another injury. At 31 he could drop down the pecking order the way Horgan did - Trimble is 30 but looks a lot fresher.

Golden wrote:
I hear what your saying Rodders........

Bradley for coach!

Ha! No I'd give Schmidt a job for life but if he moved on I'd be looking at Mike Ford or Pat Lamb - I have a feeling Les Kiss is being groomed for the top job though, I think the IRFU want him to cut his teeth at provincial level in a head post for a few seasons then take over from smoking Joe....

rodders wrote:I don't think Gilroy's defence is good enough compared to some of the other options - so wouldn't have him ahead of any of the wingers in the world cup squad or Trimble.

That said he's still young and a if he tightens up a bit on his defence then he has a natural running ability and elusiveness that none of our other players have so would definitely bring something extra.

Not sure he will make the cut in the 6N but maybe might make the summer tour - don't think he is too far off - also I really rate Matt Healy but wing is a really competitive position.

Not sure how long Bowe will be around for - he's already lost a yard of pace and yet another injury. At 31 he could drop down the pecking order the way Horgan did - Trimble is 30 but looks a lot fresher.

I think with the wing being that competitive once Bowe gets back to fitness it could be a different field with him at the bottom of the order. Wish him very well in in his recovery but it could be a long time before he is back. Hopefully Jared Payne has a smooth recovery and is fighting fit for the 6N. May have seen the last of Cave aswell if Ireland start looking to McCloskey, Olding, Reid etc. Trimble does look in better shape and should hopefully be back in the squad.

I wonder what changes we will see in the background coaching setup. Obviously we will see a defence coach. I wonder will be see an addition of an attacking coach as well and a refresh in the skills coaching department? I haven't seen any names mentioned. The fact that the IRFU has had a couple of heathy years I wouldn't have thought finances were a hurdle in getting the best people available.

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

Anyone know when Herbst qualifies for Ireland?

March 2017 I think.Just in time to play for the Lions.

And for Mike Ross to hang up the boots ....

Marty Moore, White and Furlong have been grand so far. I though Ross might actually call it a day after the World Cup.

rodders wrote:I don't think Gilroy's defence is good enough compared to some of the other options - so wouldn't have him ahead of any of the wingers in the world cup squad or Trimble.

That said he's still young and a if he tightens up a bit on his defence then he has a natural running ability and elusiveness that none of our other players have so would definitely bring something extra.

Not sure he will make the cut in the 6N but maybe might make the summer tour - don't think he is too far off - also I really rate Matt Healy but wing is a really competitive position.

Not sure how long Bowe will be around for - he's already lost a yard of pace and yet another injury. At 31 he could drop down the pecking order the way Horgan did - Trimble is 30 but looks a lot fresher.

Gilroy missed a bad tackle last weekend (as did Trimble) but he is actually a very good defender generally. He has worked very hard on this aspect of his game. He still needs a bit of work, plus his kicking needs polished, but I certainly believe he is more than capable at test level. Another thing that has impressed me with Gilroy over the years is his determination. He will not be happy with that missed tackle and will be working hard to correct those sorts of mistakes, which to be fair have been very rare recently. More often than not his aggressive style of defending has saved Ulster numerous times last season. I think he has learnt this from Trimble.

I have seen some of the top wingers in the game such as George North put in some pitiful tackles, and they haven't really improved all that much defensively. Unlike a few of those wingers though, Gilroy seems to work exceptionally hard to correct this part of his game. He definitely deserves a real shot at the Irish team.

[quote="carpet baboon"]

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ferris said it last week on radio, himself and O'Brien thought they were in a world cup semi before the Welsh game. Kidney lost a couple of key players as well in the world cup - remember Jerry Flannery & David Wallace? And even without them (and an outhalf who couldn't kick snow off a rope) they beat Australia in the SH. Ireland were destroyed by Argentina last weekend. Our worst lost ever in a world cup.

Yeah but BoD said it was because we had a crap coach ,oh wait am I misrepresenting something someone said to suit my own agenda?

Could I be misremembering that ROG ended Humphreys international career by stamping his feet until he got what he wanted?

That would have been a long stamping fit then as Humphreys was first choice 10 for at least a year after that incident

Totally agree rory.

rodders wrote:Anyone know when Herbst qualifies for Ireland?

I don't think he will be needed, both Moore and Furlong offer fantastic options at tight head. Furlong in particular is fantastic in the loose so I sincerely hope his scrummaging is up to scratch.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

JS = EOS (except Eddie's teams played more attractive rugby).

Exiled Gael wrote:I wonder what changes we will see in the background coaching setup. Obviously we will see a defence coach. I wonder will be see an addition of an attacking coach as well and a refresh in the skills coaching department? I haven't seen any names mentioned. The fact that the IRFU has had a couple of heathy years I wouldn't have thought finances were a hurdle in getting the best people available.

Nacewa is going to be attack coach.

But yes, I think it needs changing. O'Gara in as kicking coach. It's time that man earned a living rather than messing around in fancy French suits.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

JS = EOS (except Eddie's teams played more attractive rugby).

You could be right,EoS was had us playing good consistent rugby for years just got unlucky with points difference costing us dearly at times.In fact had he not been unlucky enough to have an injured BoD for the 2007 game v France we would have won the GS,it still shouldn't have mattered except for PoC choked on the last kickoff.

That's the difference in the luck DK had,BoD was fit and dragged the team over the line when RoG choked v England in 09,in 07 BoD was injured and when PoC choked we lost the Slam.

At the end of the day regardless of whether DK did this or JS did that. We are no further down the road than a few years back. We are playing a game of rugby that is now being sussed out by other teams (and which has a high attrition rate - not to mind to say not very exciting) and is clearly not capable of doing well in a world cup for example. In fact because of BODs retirement our capabilities have diminished even further in terms of back play. I honestly dont see that Schmidt is capable of moving us forward.

Edit...I think Les Kiss leaving is a good thing and since Plumbtree left our forward play has not been as good so would cut him some slack here. Will be interesting to see who he brings in...

ASLS you attack Sin É (and myself) for provincial bias etc however you havent answered any of the fundamental issues concerning the World Cup and the type of rugby we play.

Couldnt help myself with this one...more offloads in 50 seconds than we did in the whole world cup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsRF047xur4

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Cian Kelleher (honestly I do not know a whole lot about this player but I've heard great things from those who know more)

He is good. Great stepper and has pace. Along with Ringrose, was Irelands best player in the 2014 JWC. There are some back 3 players to keep an eye on. Stephen Fitzgerald (starting for Munster tonight) and Ciaran Gaffney are 2 others.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

JS = EOS (except Eddie's teams played more attractive rugby).

You could be right,EoS was had us playing good consistent rugby for years just got unlucky with points difference costing us dearly at times.In fact had he not been unlucky enough to have an injured BoD for the 2007 game v France we would have won the GS,it still shouldn't have mattered except for PoC choked on the last kickoff.

That's the difference in the luck DK had,BoD was fit and dragged the team over the line when RoG choked v England in 09,in 07 BoD was injured and when PoC choked we lost the Slam.

And I suppose ROG dragged Ireland over the line with the drop goal for the GS BOD wins championships, ROG wins Grand Slam

By the way, ROG's last kick v. England was what won the game. (By the way, where was BOD for Delon Armitage's try)? ROG was the last Irishman to score with a penalty at 70 mins. Thats what won the game.

Exiled Gael wrote:I wonder what changes we will see in the background coaching setup. Obviously we will see a defence coach. I wonder will be see an addition of an attacking coach as well and a refresh in the skills coaching department? I haven't seen any names mentioned. The fact that the IRFU has had a couple of heathy years I wouldn't have thought finances were a hurdle in getting the best people available.

Joe is the attack coach. Don't see him getting out of the track suit a la Declan Kidney.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

JS = EOS (except Eddie's teams played more attractive rugby).

You could be right,EoS was had us playing good consistent rugby for years just got unlucky with points difference costing us dearly at times.In fact had he not been unlucky enough to have an injured BoD for the 2007 game v France we would have won the GS,it still shouldn't have mattered except for PoC choked on the last kickoff.

That's the difference in the luck DK had,BoD was fit and dragged the team over the line when RoG choked v England in 09,in 07 BoD was injured and when PoC choked we lost the Slam.

And I suppose ROG dragged Ireland over the line with the drop goal for the GS   BOD wins championships, ROG wins Grand Slam

By the way, ROG's last kick v. England was what won the game. (By the way, where was BOD for Delon Armitage's try)? ROG was the last Irishman to score with a penalty at 70 mins. Thats what won the game.

So one moment at the end of the game is the be all and end all,you'll agree that PoC cost Ireland a Grand Slam in 2007 so?

ME-109 wrote:At the end of the day regardless of whether DK did this or JS did that. We are no further down the road than a few years back. We are playing a game of rugby that is now being sussed out by other teams (and which has a high attrition rate - not to mind to say not very exciting) and is clearly not capable of doing well in a world cup for example. In fact because of BODs retirement our capabilities have diminished even further in terms of back play. I honestly dont see that Schmidt is capable of moving us forward.

Edit...I think Les Kiss leaving is a good thing and since Plumbtree left our forward play has not been as good so would cut him some slack here. Will be interesting to see who he brings in...

Well that's not true because we are winning more and losing less and doing it consistently so we have definitely moved on.

If we are being sussed by other teams how did we win 4 from 5 and win the 6N? It was our defense and breakdown that cost us against the Pumas not our inability to score points. Considering we had a makeshift and inexperienced back line it's not surprising we weren't as well organized defensively.

Against Wales in 2011 we had a full team of very experienced international versus this time we were missing a 3rd of the team.

Kidneys problem was the provinces were playing much better than the national side, whereas with Joe it's the opposite - players looking average at provincial level are playing considerably better when they come into the international squad.

ME-109 wrote:ASLS you attack Sin É (and myself) for provincial bias etc however you havent answered any of the fundamental issues concerning the World Cup and the type of rugby we play.

What fundamental issues are you talking about.That defeat was a bolt out of the blue,our defense hasn't been blown apart like that before and I would hope it won't be again so that's not a fundamental issue.Our attack functioned reasonably well,we scored 2 good tries (one even included an offload which Sin é would have us believed are outlawed) and put the Argies under pressure but our halfbacks made costly mistakes which put the team under pressure and again the defense wasn't good enough.

I am reasonably happy with where we are (sick about losing the QF obviously but I don't feel despair at where the team is headed like I did when contemplating another year of DK post 2011),now if we get blown apart like that again in the 6N then I will start to question why nothing has been done to fix the problem but until then that match stands out as an aberration.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:ASLS you attack Sin É (and myself) for provincial bias etc however you havent answered any of the fundamental issues concerning the World Cup and the type of rugby we play.

What fundamental issues are you talking about.That defeat was a bolt out of the blue,our defense hasn't been blown apart like that before and I would hope it won't be again so that's not a fundamental issue.Our attack functioned reasonably well,we scored 2 good tries (one even included an offload which Sin é would have us believed are outlawed) and put the Argies under pressure but our halfbacks made costly mistakes which put the team under pressure and again the defense wasn't good enough.

I am reasonably happy with where we are (sick about losing the QF obviously but I don't feel despair at where the team is headed like I did when contemplating another year of DK post 2011),now if we get blown apart like that again in the 6N then I will start to question why nothing has been done to fix the problem but until then that match stands out as an aberration.

I concur.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Replace the present Jonathan Sexton version with the 2010+ version and Ireland would have a lot of wooden spoons. How would Schmidt have done in the last 2 championships with starting Paddy Jackson with Sexton sitting on the bench waiting to come and rescue him?

Give JS the 2010 + 2011 team and he would get 4 wins a year easily,good chance of a GS in 2011.You would never see the drop in standards that would see Ireland losing at home to Scotland.

Yea, he'd have ROG starting and Sexton sitting on his arse on the bench (just like Paddy Jackson).

He might,but I'm glad you can finally accept DK did a poor job in those seasons and JS would have done a better one.

JS = EOS (except Eddie's teams played more attractive rugby).

You could be right,EoS was had us playing good consistent rugby for years just got unlucky with points difference costing us dearly at times.In fact had he not been unlucky enough to have an injured BoD for the 2007 game v France we would have won the GS,it still shouldn't have mattered except for PoC choked on the last kickoff.

That's the difference in the luck DK had,BoD was fit and dragged the team over the line when RoG choked v England in 09,in 07 BoD was injured and when PoC choked we lost the Slam.

And I suppose ROG dragged Ireland over the line with the drop goal for the GS   BOD wins championships, ROG wins Grand Slam

By the way, ROG's last kick v. England was what won the game. (By the way, where was BOD for Delon Armitage's try)? ROG was the last Irishman to score with a penalty at 70 mins. Thats what won the game.

So one moment at the end of the game is the be all and end all,you'll agree that PoC cost Ireland a Grand Slam in 2007 so?

ROG had a poor kicking game by his high standards v England , but he nailed it when he needed to do it.

Not sure what you are talking about about POC responsible for the loss against France. Wasn't it down to a missed tackle by John Hayes.

ME-109 wrote:Personally I was pretty confident we would get at least to the semi and had been won over by Messer Schmidt and the way of playing.

At the moment I am not so sure and have some concerns.
We have one way of playing which is primarily about protecting the ball , taking it into contact, maintaining possession (manically) and using a kick chase game in certain situations. Its pretty effective in a lot of games but as with games against Wales and England over the last couple of years (including the warmups) once a team negates this we do not have an alternative. In the WC Italy actually gave Argentina a freeview on how to play Ireland specifically upfront. The difference being that Argentina had the players to execute.

Going forward I think there has to be a concern that Schmidt is incapable of coaching the team to play in any other way. Our back play is staid and easily read. We have one or two set moves but thats about it. Offloading is a complete no no, and individuality is frowned upon. Usually the Zebo example is given however can anyone ever remember the last time Conor Murray actually attempted a break?

However maybe we could be describing a coach who has taken a bunch of talented individuals and made them into winners playing a brand of exciting attacking rugby....or one who has taken a bunch of directionless no-hopers and made them hard to beat and more of an attacking threat. However that would be Cheika and Vern Cotter.

I think there is a concern that what we are seeing from Ireland is about it. The example of the Blues, Clermont and Leinster is there. The attacking play for Leinster was developed under Cheika the improvement Schmidt brought was in bringing the ball retention and Forward play to a higher level (dont believe me check out the amount of tries scored by backs v forwards after Schmidt took charge).

Comparisons with previous coaches will always be based on who prefers who but if examples of USA last time out are being given then the same can be said of Italy this time out. The fact is we did not win against a team higher ranked and we got stuffed by Argentina. While Joe apparently was unlucky to lose two games in the six nations, Kidney was "lucky" to win a GS whereas I suppose the Mike Phillips try in 2010 for example would be seen as Kidneys fault...

So lets see EOS won four games out of five in the 6ns two years in a row so in that way JS has luck on his side in terms of points scored. Hasnt got a GS, went out in the QF of the world cup. I dont see a huge difference with DK or EOS for that matter. The big thing now is whether we can improve because as has been shown the limited game we have is not going to get us very far in tournaments like the world cup. The 6ns and trip to SA next year will be fascinating. At the moment I think the jury is still out on the "greatest coach ever" tag but he is still in with a chance. Dont see it myself but genuinely hope I'm wrong.

Grand - so Joe out! Over-rated and no better than his predecessors.

Now, who for the Ireland coaching job? Obviously we need the attacking flair and a better attitude in the pack. So who does Axel pick as his coaching ticket to take over the job? POC to take the forwards? ROG to take the back and attack? Axel to take on the defensive coach mantle directly himself?

Jaysus........... we're in 2015, trying to pick up the pieces of another disappointing stab at another WC.................. and we're back to discussing a missed tackle by someone called John Hayes.

No wonder we're still shyte............. too much post traumatic shock to live with. Our memories are too long.

I still can't believe we lost that game to Scotland after the foot and mouth outbreak. Gutted.