England Squad for the 6N 2016

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:16 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nathan wrote:wouldn't suprise me if Burgess went back to RL, afterall he was made a scapegoat by some

And he ultimately failed. He's struggled to adapt and has not been the success he thought he would be. To give union not even a year and run back to RL with your tail between your legs show the balls of the bloke imo.

He hasn't struggled. He's adapted very well. Not enough for the international game, but then we pay head coaches a handsome amount of money to make that decision not him. As for being the success he thought he would be, where did that come from? The only thing I've seen him say is that he was looking forward to the change, has no real expectations and (later on) he was finding some aspects hard to come to grips with (lineout was specifically mentioned I think).

I would be more than happy for him to go back to league to get away from comments like these. Certainly if he's not enjoying it.

There were rumours that Burgess was guaranteed a WC spot to come to union, this would not surprise me. Going back to RL means his time in union was ultimately a failure, why else would he leave?

I'm glad to see the back of him of tbh, his hype hasn't being backed by his talent. He's a decent AP 6, no more.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:51 pm

You do him a disservice.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:03 pm

I'd love Sam to stay - give it a year or two and he'd be a top RU player, he's already a top athlete. If he was advised it would take him less time than this, then he was badly advised. He doesn't strike me as a quitter, but maybe he just wanted to see what all the fuss was about in union before returning to the dark side. Anyway good luck to him. If he returns to RL perhaps he could take SL and Farrell with him.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:06 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...There were rumours that Burgess was guaranteed a WC spot to come to union, this would not surprise me...

I'm surprised you think that's at all likely. Who do you think would - or for that matter, could - offer such a guarantee, and why on earth do you think they would do so?

by Geordie Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:10 pm

Ha ha Im sorry Yappy...jeez I must be boring you guys going on about the same thing for 4 years Crying or Very sad

by Bathman_in_London Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

I think both the media and the English coaching staff will really have cocked things up if Burgess leaves. I got the impression people either expected him to immediately be playing 80 minutes of highlight reel quality stuff, or else were hoping they could pen articles about a long list of league 'failures'.

As for the England coaching setup... I think it just shows the paucity of both talent and leadership amongst them than nobody thought that it could be a bad idea to throw him in at the deep end.

Personally I feel sorry for him, he is the sort of bloke who will always give 100%, but he would have been much better served having some time off after a NRL/premiership season and then joining Bath's preseason to really get into being a destructive 6. Instead he has become a scapegoat for the England management being bereft of ideas. I can see why being a hero in Sydney as well as being with your family would seem attractive.

by Geordie Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:15 pm

Come on then guys...

Whats your current team for the 6n after 3 games of the prem!

by king_carlos Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

1.Marler
2.George
3.?
4.Launchbury
5.Kitchener/Symons
6.Robshaw
7.Kvesic
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.May
12.Slade
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

With Mako, Hartley, T Youngs, Slater, Lawes, Itoje, Billy V, Care, Simpson/Robson, Daly, Nowell and Pennell also around the squad.

If Kitchener continues to struggle for fitness then I hope Symons comes in as a bigger unit who offers a line-out leader. The LI maul has been very impressive since he came in. I also really hope that Ed Slater can get fit to offer another ball carrier in our pack.

At TH we really need Cole and/or Wilson to find their best form and fitness. If this means putting a few more pounds on for Cole then hopefully he can do so in time. Cole was solid but little more on Sunday I felt - the Tigers scrum struggled but was largely on the LH side with Balmain out of position. Wilson on the other hand struggled against Marler which is of course good and bad from England perspective!

If Davey Wilson continues to struggle then I hope Thomas can kick on and get more starts at Bath as he could be our next best option IMO. I've already been over my views on Brookes in this thread!

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:...There were rumours that Burgess was guaranteed a WC spot to come to union, this would not surprise me...
I'm surprised you think that's at all likely. Who do you think would - or for that matter, could - offer such a guarantee, and why on earth do you think they would do so?

I read it as he moved and thought it was rubbish tbh. Seeing the way he was shoe horned into the squad makes me wonder though, he clearly wasn't ready.

It winds me up we're even talking about him, he doesn't warrant it.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:09 pm

Slade/Joseph is a seriously lightweight midfield, I don't like it.

by nlpnlp Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:14 pm

I really don't understand why people think Burgess will be an outstanding No 6? He can't jump in the lineout, struggles to lift, doesn't have the breakdown skills, doesn't have the knowledge to know where the next breakdown will take place. I am not a Sam basher - I think he is a world class rugby league player - but league and union are two very different games. Give him time he could become a decent second row as did Brad Thorn, but he isn't a back and for me does not have the skills to be a No 8 or No 6. I hope for his sake he goes back to rugby league, where his skills of repeatedly carrying the ball into contact and tackling people who run straight at him, fit well.

As for England, it is clear that we do not have the skillset to match New Zealand or Australia. Therefore we need to pick a side which is bigger, stronger, fitter and faster than either of them and hope that this with a proper game plan, better match day 23 selection (and substitutions) and lots of work on basic skills, will be sufficient to prevail. We need a front 5 that can scrummage and win clean lineout ball consistently. This means not picking props on their ball carrying ability, or second rows on their ability to fill in at No 6. I would probably go with Mullan, Hartley/George, Wilson, Launchbury and Attwood/Slater. Youngs is at best someone to come off the bench as an impact player but not a starting hooker. A front 5 of that type would allow a Kvesic/Armstrong/etc as a genuine 7, Ewers as a 'destructive' No 6 and Nathan Hughes at No 8 as soon as he has completed his England qualification period.

The problem at No 9 is that Youngs and Care flatter to deceive - they have a coupe of games where they look world class, then 4 or 5 where they look below par and then swop places. We need to give one of the next generation - Robson, Simpson, etc - the chance to see if they can step up. Ford is a good player at 10, but lacks in the goal kicking department. Slade is a real prospect and I think trying to shoehorn him into the centres is a mistake. Let him and Ford fight it out at flyhalf. Of the available options Burrell and Joseph look the only real choices - Barritt is an honest trier but his limitations were exposed in the world cup. Twelvetrees is at best an enigma. Manu needs to get fit. I think we are well served with wingers - I would be happy with any two from Watson, May, Nowell, Wade, Ashton(!!), Rokodeguni, etc - and at fullback with Brown or Watson or Nowell.

We are yet again in that period when we need a changing of the guard and some players like Wood, Haskell and Robshaw should be moved down the pecking order - they have had their chance and repeatedly come up short. I am not advocating getting rid of anyone over 21 and picking the next new thing - the pack I would like to see is pretty experienced. It is just 2 or 3 places in the back that we need to try and nail down. Plus a coach with clarity on selection and tactics.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:18 pm

Burgess wasn't included in the lineout so far, and was the one thing he was obviously struggling with to be included at 6 which is what lancaster said. We don't know how good he could have been. The struggles to lift thing? Where did that come from? He hasn't had chance yet. He was very good at the breakdown at the end of last season at 6. I can't help but feel that people who say stuff like that didn't see him play at 6 where he looked a completely different player to the one at centre (where to be fair he looked ok but not special).

by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:23 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:...There were rumours that Burgess was guaranteed a WC spot to come to union, this would not surprise me...
I'm surprised you think that's at all likely. Who do you think would - or for that matter, could - offer such a guarantee, and why on earth do you think they would do so?

I read it as he moved and thought it was rubbish tbh. Seeing the way he was shoe horned into the squad makes me wonder though, he clearly wasn't ready.

It winds me up we're even talking about him, he doesn't warrant it.

Not wanting to jump in on your thread guys but I had the same feeling with regards Anscombe for us (as was I Harris years ago) and the way he was almost guaranteed a DC and a Welsh squad place, only difference is that at least he came from a Union background.

The Burgess discussion has been done to death but for what it's worth I hope he sticks with it at Union as I do feel he can be a huge success, the obvious problem that needs to be resolved is where you play him and that Bath and England both agree on that position.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:24 pm

6. It's not even a question bedford.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:6. It's not even a question bedford.

Well for his sake let's hope they all agree on it, it's hard enough learning the new code as it is let alone two positions in that code.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:32 pm

I think even Lancaster acknowledged it. He wanted a proven lineout option for his 6 though and without Tuilagi a big bashing option in the centre. It was a mistake for me as Tuilagi isn't a very good midfield player just because of his size, a fact often overlooked; he knows how to use it very effectively. Given the media reports I don't think we'll see much more of Burgess the union player.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:41 pm

I said for a while that Lancaster put all his eggs in the Tuilagi basket so to speak and when he was out he didn't know quite what to do about it. As for Burgess I hope he doesn't go back as even as a Welsh fan it would be great to see him succeed, just not against us Wink

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 03 Nov 2015, 3:23 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I really don't understand why people think Burgess will be an outstanding No 6? He can't jump in the lineout, struggles to lift, doesn't have the breakdown skills, doesn't have the knowledge to know where the next breakdown will take place. I am not a Sam basher - I think he is a world class rugby league player - but league and union are two very different games. Give him time he could become a decent second row as did Brad Thorn, but he isn't a back and for me does not have the skills to be a No 8 or No 6. I hope for his sake he goes back to rugby league, where his skills of repeatedly carrying the ball into contact and tackling people who run straight at him, fit well.

We are yet again in that period when we need a changing of the guard and some players like Wood, Haskell and Robshaw should be moved down the pecking order - they have had their chance and repeatedly come up short. I am not advocating getting rid of anyone over 21 and picking the next new thing - the pack I would like to see is pretty experienced. It is just 2 or 3 places in the back that we need to try and nail down. Plus a coach with clarity on selection and tactics.

Not sure I buy that. Sure he'll need a year or two to learn these skills, but just how much skill do you need to be lifted or lift, particularly given his natural athleticism? The breakdown would be more worrying, but given he's learning quickly here I feel he could do this fine. It's not as if he's got that much competition in the England set-up at this particular skill as we're rubbish at it. We would need an OS with excellent breakdown skills to complement him though.

The last comment is where we're really struggling. Mostly because SL doesn't seem to see it as his weakness.

by Geordie Tue 03 Nov 2015, 3:32 pm

king_carlos wrote:If Kitchener continues to struggle for fitness then I hope Symons comes in as a bigger unit who offers a line-out leader. The LI maul has been very impressive since he came in. !

Is Symons bigger than Kitchener? I appreciate Kitchener is seen as a lineout man...and he is very good there, but he's 6'6 and well over 19st. Hes a massive guy.

I agree with your team. Almost to the man of what I would go for. I would consider Attwood again for one last chance to see if he can perform a more power focused game. The one he plays for Bath.

4 Launchbury
5 Kitchener

19 Attwood

EDIT: I see Dom Barrow had a 19 minute cameo for Tigers this weekend. If they can get him totally fit and firing then theres another monster of a lock who comes in to contention. I rate him so highly...he just stalled a little with us through injury.

Think Tigers will get him moving.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 3:38 pm

Attwood isn't even that good for Bath.

by Geordie Tue 03 Nov 2015, 3:40 pm

He has been though 7.5 over the last few years.

See how he goes this season.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 3:49 pm

Never really seen him as any more than a good player. i'd stick with Lawes and Launchbury personally and look to Slater, Kitchener, Itoje and I'm looking forward to seeing this Symons guy.

by Geordie Tue 03 Nov 2015, 4:02 pm

Cant agree on Lawes. I think he needs to do much more.

Launchbury, Slater, Kitchener, Itoje...

Symmons well ill judge when I see him.

And lets see if Barrow can get himself fit and in form...he could be immense.

by king_carlos Tue 03 Nov 2015, 4:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:If Kitchener continues to struggle for fitness then I hope Symons comes in as a bigger unit who offers a line-out leader. The LI maul has been very impressive since he came in. !

Is Symons bigger than Kitchener? I appreciate Kitchener is seen as a lineout man...and he is very good there, but he's 6'6 and well over 19st. Hes a massive guy.

I agree with your team. Almost to the man of what I would go for. I would consider Attwood again for one last chance to see if he can perform a more power focused game. The one he plays for Bath.

4 Launchbury
5 Kitchener

19 Attwood

EDIT: I see Dom Barrow had a 19 minute cameo for Tigers this weekend. If they can get him totally fit and firing then theres another monster of a lock who comes in to contention. I rate him so highly...he just stalled a little with us through injury.

Think Tigers will get him moving.

The listed weights for both Symons and Kitch vary a little bit but both are around the 19 stone mark. Kitch is listed as a touch heavier but personally I put little emphasis on listed weights as they often seem ridiculously off these days.

Symons is another big guy who throws his weight around though. He is tall even for a lock - listed at 6'7" or 6'8" - last time I checked but he such a naturally big guy that he isn't a beanpole and he carries strongly plus is excellent in the tight. Having played for the Chiefs his basic handling skills are much better than many English locks!

Attwood I want to see playing his natural game for Bath and doing so consistently. If he does that then I wouldn't mind him getting another look but he would be a bit down the order for myself at the moment. Similar with Kruis - I rate him highly but currently there are other options I would like us to look at.

As a Tigers fan it was just nice to see Barrow on the pitch given our lock injuries! I think he's a massive talent and if he can stay fit could excel in the Tigers environment. To get a starting berth at full strength he will need to get past Slater, Kitchener and Fitzgerald for sure. On top of those three Mike Williams has showed up well at lock and Seb De Chaves was also excellent for us last season but isn't as dynamic as Barrow. He is a talent though no doubt.

by Hood83 Wed 04 Nov 2015, 7:38 am

I think Burgess is a red herring. The 6 who needs to be dropped and probably forgotten is Wood. Slow, under-powered and cumbersome. He's miles off the quality of athlete and footballer we need.

I also agree with Steffon Armitage, his comments on overseas players being a 'distraction' were pathetic. A distraction? More like competition.

by Hood83 Wed 04 Nov 2015, 7:40 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think both the media and the English coaching staff will really have cocked things up if Burgess leaves. I got the impression people either expected him to immediately be playing 80 minutes of highlight reel quality stuff, or else were hoping they could pen articles about a long list of league 'failures'.

As for the England coaching setup... I think it just shows the paucity of both talent and leadership amongst them than nobody thought that it could be a bad idea to throw him in at the deep end.

Personally I feel sorry for him, he is the sort of bloke who will always give 100%, but he would have been much better served having some time off after a NRL/premiership season and then joining Bath's preseason to really get into being a destructive 6. Instead he has become a scapegoat for the England management being bereft of ideas. I can see why being a hero in Sydney as well as being with your family would seem attractive.

This

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 04 Nov 2015, 8:53 am

Hood83 wrote:...comments on overseas players being a 'distraction' were pathetic...

Tom Youngs was the first squad member to speak against selecting overseas players and Woods joined him a few weeks afterwards. Whatever you think of the policy, players shouldn't have been commenting publicly about who they felt comfortable playing alongside. You might get away with it if you are part of an all-conquering team but it's wasn't a good look at the time, and certainly not when you are also-rans.

by yappysnap Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:01 am

Yea really strange, especially from Youngs as its not even like its a French based hooker they're talking about, what comment can he pass on a 7 or 15?

by Geordie Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:01 am

Ok a few questions?

Do we need to be looking for some more muscle in the second rows?....
Do we need a specialist at 7 or are people happy with a left and right flanker scenario.

And...Tom Youngs. Yes or no?

by yappysnap Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:06 am

Yes to bigger lock

Yes to some form of poaching backrow but that can be anywhere, it's just as much tactics as players

No to Tom Youngs

by yappysnap Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:06 am

yappysnap wrote:Yes to bigger lock

Yes to some form of poaching backrow but that can be anywhere, it's just as much tactics as players

No to Tom Youngs

by Geordie Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:07 am

Lets be clear...Abendanon should just keep his mouth shut.

He's nowhere near as good as Mike Brown...and id rather see young Nowell at 15 or Watson now.

Armitage...well that's a different story I guess. He probably should have made the squad...but ITS DONE WITH NOW.

We move on. We have talent coming through even at 7 - Kvesic, Wallace, Fraser.

We need decide which coach we will have then pick the best tactics.

Im unsure how I would feel if Lancaster was still in charge.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:13 am

The players were put forward for press conferences and asked the questions.

We slam players for making no comment, and slam them when they reply to a question.

Frankly we are all chuffing PATHETIC

by **LondonTiger** Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:15 am

Oh and Armitage is a fat, lazy, drunken thug who ran away from competition for the England shirt.

He got exactly what he merited.

by Bathman_in_London Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:22 am

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and Armitage is a fat, lazy, drunken thug who ran away from competition for the England shirt.

He got exactly what he merited.

Agree with all of that and that's why he shouldn't have been in the team, nothing to do with him being paid in € instead of £.

Tom Wood's comments did annoy me though, if he was a real team player he would have welcomed anything to improve England's chances.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:26 am

The fact that players know they won't be chosen if playing in France means they shouldn't be chosen.

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Wed 04 Nov 2015, 10:11 am

LondonTiger wrote:The players were put forward for press conferences and asked the questions.

We slam players for making no comment, and slam them when they reply to a question.

Frankly we are all chuffing PATHETIC

It's true that players are in a bit of a no-win situation. Wood has seemed to make a few ill-advised comments recently, though. First over foreign players, which looked less like he was standing up for players loyal to the AP and more like he was afraid of competition. Then his comments on the captaincy, which, though overplayed as a pitch for the captaincy, certainly could have been more diplomatic, and seemed an attempt to damn Robshaw with faint praise.

by sad_gimp Wed 04 Nov 2015, 10:49 am

God I wish they would flat out state they won't select overseas players and do away with the stupid 'exceptional circumstances' clause as it's clear they won't ever use it.

Want to play for England? Play in England. Every English player that goes to France is making a decision to take the money over their international career....I don't begrudge them that. But please can it just be made black and white so we don't get this drivel in the news every few weeks.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 04 Nov 2015, 11:58 am

I really don't see the issue with playing your rugby 2hrs away. It's probably quicker to get to HQ from Paris than Newcastle (not that we'd have many players needing to make the trip)

by lostinwales Wed 04 Nov 2015, 12:01 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really don't see the issue with playing your rugby 2hrs away. It's probably quicker to get to HQ from Paris than Newcastle (not that we'd have many players needing to make the trip)

Its not the distance its the access for training (and to a degree control on the number of games played etc). You could apply the same argument for Welsh players in the AP. Its all just a sideshow anyway. As frequently mentioned abenawhatsit isn't a better FB than Brown, and Armitage has worse off field issues than the usual England team suspects

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 04 Nov 2015, 12:10 pm

You pick your best players imo, we're not that good that we can pick and choose.

by lostinwales Wed 04 Nov 2015, 12:40 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You pick your best players imo, we're not that good that we can pick and choose.

Yep - but of the foreign legion the only player that might need to be considered is SA, and it's not like there are no question marks over him.

by Geordie Wed 04 Nov 2015, 1:35 pm

How about a back row of:

6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic (possibly Fraser)
8 B. Vunipola

Don't forget Laurie Fisher is the Gloucester coach now...the Australian breakdown coaching king! Imagine what Kvesic will learn from him! Pococks mentor etc.

by king_carlos Wed 04 Nov 2015, 1:40 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:How about a back row of:

6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic (possibly Fraser)
8 B. Vunipola

Morgan will be competing hard with Billy for the 8 spot GF. Otherwise that would be my current first choice yes.

Add someone like Itoje as a bulkier option at blindside who should be utilised from the bench and we have a lot of potential in the back row. Plus some more balance at long last.

by Geordie Wed 04 Nov 2015, 1:43 pm

There are options King...

Ewers or Itoje (debate ongoing) , Croft, Wood etc for 6
Ben Morgan will definitely push for 8 if he can regain fitness.

But for a starting and more balanced back row I think the one above just offers you a good starting block.

by king_carlos Wed 04 Nov 2015, 1:59 pm

Definitely options GF we just need one or two to throw their hands up and demand selection.

Ewers has started slowly I've thought. I'm a big fan but I want to see him carrying more often and be more involved around the fringes in defence. He is a massive bloke and he needs to be throwing that around in close to rucks.

I wouldn't want both Robshaw and Wood in the same squad again personally. We have 4 spots for flankers and two going to such similar players is a waste after they under performed so badly at the RWC. I rate Robshaw more highly than Wood so I would take him everyday of the week.

Wood has frustrated for a while now. When he first came into the set-up he was very dynamic at the breakdown and in the tackle. He made telling contributions and well as a big volume of them. Now he seems to have lost that impetus and dynamism defensively and without it is far too ineffective for an international blindside. Hopefully he can get it back but I haven't been as impressed for a while.

As for Croft - I'm just happy to see him back on the pitch, in a Tigers shirt and getting stuck in. Hopefully he stays there and his performance keep improving but thoughts of an International return are currently premature IMO.

by Geordie Wed 04 Nov 2015, 2:21 pm

A few of my Falcons mates think Clifford already offers more than Robshaw would at 6.

I guess we'll see when the next team runs out.

And who the Head coach will be...

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 04 Nov 2015, 2:24 pm

Still a little early for Clifford, but he should be around the squad. Not impressed with Ewers so far, still too slow and cumbersome.

Robshaw is a fair shout but lacks the carrying needed. Fraser has been the best 7 so far but can he stay injury free?

by yappysnap Wed 04 Nov 2015, 4:55 pm

Robshaw would be brilliant if he went back to playing first reviewer on poor ball, at his best he was great at turning slow ball to quick ball and making offloads in the tackle. Again this seems to have been removed from his game by the England coaches.

by jamesandimac Wed 04 Nov 2015, 6:47 pm

Anyone seen the comments from cockers on sky sports? Seems to echo our thoughts on here about playing to our strengths and not trying to be something we're not. In fact he isn't one of you lot is he?

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