England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

There's talk about him being a player for the 'waste disposal chute'. That's allowed, but it is a bit silly and so as nobody else challenged it I thought I would. Who knows, he might not be Jones' first choice, but he won't be far away, and Launchbury and Lawes is a fine second-row if both are fit and in form.

Let's see what sort of game Launchbury has tonight against a monster Toulon pack.

Our scrum has functioned extremely well with a Launchbury / Lawes partnership before.

thomh wrote:Our scrum has functioned extremely well with a Launchbury / Lawes partnership before.

Yes it has. I don't think Lawes in the scrum is the main issue, it's his lack of effectiveness around the park. If he's not tackling a half back, he's not really doing much else. He's a bit under powered imo and we need to adjust the pack because of this.

The main issue with the set-piece in general is Tom Youngs, but we've done that one to death.

Every position should be up for review. It doesn't mean we should automatically ditch guys who didn't perform at the RWC when they have done so in the past (except ofc for Barritt...)

(To be fair Barritt was another suffering from not being back to form.)

I do think Cole needs to up his game to. I notice he only came on for the last 10 mins against Treviso...
If Brooke's & Thomas continue in the form they showed yesterday Dan could find it hard to retain his place for the 6Ns.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I do think Cole needs to up his game to. I notice he only came on for the last 10 mins against Treviso...
If Brooke's & Thomas continue in the form they showed yesterday Dan could find it hard to retain his place for the 6Ns.

Plus you have Collier and Sinckler fit again for Quins and impressing Adam Jones (for what that's worth).

But I really don't expect Jones to make a ton of changes for the 6N. I think he will see what he's got, who can respond to his coaching and change it up where players don't respond.

Poorfour wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I do think Cole needs to up his game to. I notice he only came on for the last 10 mins against Treviso...
If Brooke's & Thomas continue in the form they showed yesterday Dan could find it hard to retain his place for the 6Ns.

Plus you have Collier and Sinckler fit again for Quins and impressing Adam Jones (for what that's worth).

But I really don't expect Jones to make a ton of changes for the 6N. I think he will see what he's got, who can respond to his coaching and change it up where players don't respond.

Sorry but Sinckler should be no where near the international team he is woeful in the scrums and a liability with his temperament, he is miles away form the quality required. Plenty of others without needing to mention him.

It will be interesting to see what players can adapt to the way Jones wants them to play. There may be some players who we are all saying should start that don't or want to adapt.

Lawes and Launchbury has performed well...but I'm not convinced that its the best possible combo we can put out.

I think its Launchbury + 1

But I could say that for the others areas also....

Billy / Ben, Wood and Robshaw HAS played very well at times but its not in my opinion nor never has been Englands best potential back row

Likewise I don't think Marler, Youngs, Cole is...

But each area only needs a tweak.

Incidentally it will be very interesting to see how Wasps go against Toulon. Lots of young English lads under the microscope....

We'll see if Wades defence is an issue. Likewise Daly etc etc.

David Strettle has just scored a blinder for Clermont.

has Lawes actually played well?

He puts in some thumping hits but that is generally his game, on form he puts in a large number of hits and this can be like a turnover nearly, but he doesn't really bring much else to the party IMO at the time being.

I would agree Welly, and that's why he was one to come under the spotlight.

He is good at maul defence...but that's only part of a locks job.

Lawes has played well, but I don't think he has consistantly

Brookes seems one of the form TH's, Cole less so.  Balmain started for Leicester and when Cole came on the scrum seemed less dominant (first scrum penalty against Cole).

Auterac looked good, but let's give him more time.

cb wrote:Brookes seems one of the form TH's, Cole less so.  Balmain started for Leicester and when Cole came on the scrum seemed less dominant (first scrum penalty against Cole).

Auterac looked good, but let's give him more time.

wouldn't base your judgment on that call - he clearly slipped, was all.

Cole hasn't played that well since his neck injury. But our whole scrum hasn't been great and i don't know enough on where to point the finger.

cb wrote:Brookes seems one of the form TH's, Cole less so.  Balmain started for Leicester and when Cole came on the scrum seemed less dominant (first scrum penalty against Cole).

Auterac looked good, but let's give him more time.

I'm all for giving people time but Auterac was not a one off performance, was far superior to Paul James last year at Bath and consistently has his opposite number in trouble.

I know it was only one game, but........


Anyone out there still pushing the case for selecting Steffon?

LondonTiger wrote:I know it was only one game, but........


Anyone out there still pushing the case for selecting Steffon?

Well he is still by some distance Englands best 7, and if I am honest I would prefer someone playing overseas than some NZ reject who comes over to the UK for more money (a critiscm aimed at Armitage) and just happens to have a relative who was English. But my opinion isn't going to change the rule and so I do hope some club makes an effort to sign Armitage in the summer seeing how he could be a marque player and then the debate of is he only winning European player of the year because he plays for Toulon.

Student-A1 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I know it was only one game, but........


Anyone out there still pushing the case for selecting Steffon?

Well he is still by some distance Englands best 7, and if I am honest I would prefer someone playing overseas than some NZ reject who comes over to the UK for more money (a critiscm aimed at Armitage) and just happens to have a relative who was English. But my opinion isn't going to change the rule and so I do hope some club makes an effort to sign Armitage in the summer seeing how he could be a marque player and then the debate of is he only winning European player of the year because he plays for Toulon.

lol, he was Poopie today.

Englands "best 7" didn't even get a single turn over today

Steffon looks like a fatso amongst a team of tele tubbies. England won't lose anything by not having him around. George Smith totally out played him and he's a international retiree.

Kvesic went to to toe with Smith and gained a draw, despite being on the back foot all game.

Steffon looked fat and unfit.


Strettle's performance today perfectly encapsulates my thoughts. Just like Abendanon i do not believe Strettle has improved as a player, but he was stunningly good today. Playing with better players makes you look better. For me that applies to Steffon, Bendy & Strettle.

nathan wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I know it was only one game, but........


Anyone out there still pushing the case for selecting Steffon?

Well he is still by some distance Englands best 7, and if I am honest I would prefer someone playing overseas than some NZ reject who comes over to the UK for more money (a critiscm aimed at Armitage) and just happens to have a relative who was English. But my opinion isn't going to change the rule and so I do hope some club makes an effort to sign Armitage in the summer seeing how he could be a marque player and then the debate of is he only winning European player of the year because he plays for Toulon.

lol, he was Poopie today.

Englands "best 7" didn't even get a single turn over today

Yeah he was garbage today as were Lobbe and all the backs including Habana (Cooper was in a league of his own for bad performances however). Does that make them all terrible though? I think it is a mute point as Armitage is with his family in France and seems very happy, the rule is set so is a pretty flat debate.

LondonTiger wrote:Kvesic went to to toe with Smith and gained a draw, despite being on the back foot all game.

Steffon looked fat and unfit.


Strettle's performance today perfectly encapsulates my thoughts. Just like Abendanon i do not believe Strettle has improved as a player, but he was stunningly good today. Playing with better players makes you look better. For me that applies to Steffon, Bendy & Strettle.

So the team all play terribly including so many outstanding international and that is a fair way to judge someone but when the team play well it is not fair to judge someone. Hmmmm seems a somewhat contradictory way of looking at things. And the point on Abendanon, he was consistently player of the year at Bath in a terrible team, but as it will always be by playing for succesful teams will bring exposure and the ability to perform at a higher level. Do I think Abendanon has improved? No but he was consistently outstanding for Bath who had a terrible pack and pretty average backs and pretty much always the most succesful teams supply the bulk of the national teams players. As I have said before I don't see Armitage leaving his life in France and that is perfectly respectable so there is no debate. I do hope England do not go down the route of playing NZ rejects however.

If you are going to say you can't pick out a player when the whole team is playing badly, surely that means you can't pick out a player when playing in a team playing well.

Who is the NZ reject by the way?

nathan wrote:If you are going to say you can't pick out a player when the whole team is playing badly, surely that means you can't pick out a player when playing in a team playing well.

Who is the NZ reject by the way?

I make no point about rating a player, if they play badly then you say but Habana was terrible, Cooper like a clown. But then if they play well you can say that too. For e.g. in the yr Armitage won Euro Player of the Year he completely humiliated Warberton, yes pack was better but he played well. My point is people say some players only look good because of the team they are in, but then who can you really rate. Doesn't Carter look great for NZ but he is playing with better players than anyone else. Again this argument or discussion is pointless as Eddie Jones has clearly set out he is going with the RFU rule.

And to answer your question O'Connor, moved to Leicester as zero prospects of getting international game so come to make some more cash in richer league. Seen his name crop up a number of times.

UStudent-A1 wrote:

nathan wrote:If you are going to say you can't pick out a player when the whole team is playing badly, surely that means you can't pick out a player when playing in a team playing well.

Who is the NZ reject by the way?

I make no point about rating a player, if they play badly then you say but Habana was terrible, Cooper like a clown. But then if they play well you can say that too. For e.g. in the yr Armitage won Euro Player of the Year he completely humiliated Warberton, yes pack was better but he played well. My point is people say some players only look good because of the team they are in, but then who can you really rate. Doesn't Carter look great for NZ but he is playing with better players than anyone else. Again this argument or discussion is pointless as Eddie Jones has clearly set out he is going with the RFU rule.

And to answer your question O'Connor, moved to Leicester as zero prospects of getting international game so come to make some more cash in richer league. Seen his name crop up a number of times.

Really glad you know o'conner personally, you must do to understand so clearly his reasons for accepting an offer from the tigers.

nathan wrote:

UStudent-A1 wrote:

nathan wrote:If you are going to say you can't pick out a player when the whole team is playing badly, surely that means you can't pick out a player when playing in a team playing well.

Who is the NZ reject by the way?

I make no point about rating a player, if they play badly then you say but Habana was terrible, Cooper like a clown. But then if they play well you can say that too. For e.g. in the yr Armitage won Euro Player of the Year he completely humiliated Warberton, yes pack was better but he played well. My point is people say some players only look good because of the team they are in, but then who can you really rate. Doesn't Carter look great for NZ but he is playing with better players than anyone else. Again this argument or discussion is pointless as Eddie Jones has clearly set out he is going with the RFU rule.

And to answer your question O'Connor, moved to Leicester as zero prospects of getting international game so come to make some more cash in richer league. Seen his name crop up a number of times.

Really glad you know o'conner personally, you must do to understand so clearly his reasons for accepting an offer from the tigers.

As people do with Armitages' reasons for going to a country he was brought up in. But I don't think it is stretching it too much to believe it is not for a will or desire to represent the England a country he has held dear to his heart all his life. Most players from NZ are quite open about coming over for the rewards on offer (Hayman one example), plenty of interviews where they have admitted that, I don't see it as a problem and it is not a critiscm. However, I do not beleive this loop hole of playing for NZ u20s then not being good enough for the 1st team but having a relative in another country is correct. I do not understand any argument to push someone into the England squad in these circumstances, it is how I felt about Waldrom and it is how I feel here. To play for England should be a massive thing so surely as you are playing at school or in your junior club it should be the dream, was it O'Connors? Without knowing him well enough to get a Christmas card I am confident in saying the answer is no.

If Kvesic who I think needs to improve gets picked then perfectly happy with that i think there are better personally but only an opinion. O'Connor situation different and I can't see why people would argue his case.

I don't think anyone has argued his case, there have been a few tongue in cheek comments but that's it. It just doesn't sit easy with me that you assume he came over with the intent to get rich and play for England.

I doubt you'll get rich at tigers as we don't tend to pay the players top rate.

nathan wrote:I don't think anyone has argued his case, there have been a few tongue in cheek comments but that's it. It just doesn't sit easy with me that you assume he came over with the intent to get rich and play for England.

I doubt you'll get rich at tigers as we don't tend to pay the players top rate.

Not saying he is getting rich saying he came to increase his pay and to help set himself up financially. A perfectly reasonable thing to do but Armitage called a mercinary on here I have read for doing the very same thing and also going onto glory too it could be said too. I am saying he came over with no intention to play for England, I do not for one second believe there was any motivation in that but the loophole is always found.

How much is Tuilagi being offered?? Not top rate?? I jest as all the top prem clubs hit the cap limit (some maybe a little more ) so players are paid pretty well over here only bettered by French teams. The cap is being increased continuously so teams can offer wages competing with France, that is something quoted many times. In a sport like rugby, money is a factor which is perfectly understandable.

Student,

Game after game I study Steffon and, imo, he is an over-rated lardarse. Without the efforts of Smith, Masoe and most of all Lobbe doing his donkey work these last few years he would have been nothing. Watching him today he never once entered the Wasps half at Toulon kick-offs. He was always deep in the Toulon half on the wing waiting for a kick. He would stay there through multiple phases - irrespective of what was happening and whether he was needed.

I do not want Bredon O'Connor playing for england. Just as I do not want Nathan Hughes. Even if both improve the team.

I would like Matt Kvesic to get a chance. After a poor first season a Glaws he was fantastic last year, and has looked just as good this year. George Smith has even commented on how good he is.

Oh and next seasons cap is still only half what they pay in France - on a LFL basis.

LondonTiger wrote:Student,

Game after game I study Steffon and, imo, he is an over-rated lardarse. Without the efforts of Smith, Masoe and most of all Lobbe doing his donkey work these last few years he would have been nothing. Watching him today he never once entered the Wasps half at Toulon kick-offs. He was always deep in the Toulon half on the wing waiting for a kick. He would stay there through multiple phases - irrespective of what was happening and whether he was needed.

I do not want Bredon O'Connor playing for england. Just as I do not want Nathan Hughes. Even if both improve the team.

I would like Matt Kvesic to get a chance. After a poor first season a Glaws he was fantastic last year, and has looked just as good this year. George Smith has even commented on how good he is.

I disagree with you opinion on Armitage but you disagree with me and thats one of the joys of the game, no problem with debate. I think he was fully warranted in winning Euro player of the year but is outside the Prem so inelligable (wish they would get rid of the exceptional circumstance rule as what is deemed exceptional) so there is no debate of him playing.

I do think the Hughes debate is different as he has been here a while now and apparently turned down playing for his native country. Is it right?? I don't know, I do feel strongly about the rule over O'Connor however. Nothing against the guy and maybe I am being hypocritical with not having an issue with Hughes.

As for Kvesic, I built him up loads and he's disappointed me to be honest. If I am wrong then believe me it will make me very happy indeed and I will sing his praises as much as anyone if he performs well for England.

Jones must be slightly confused. His predecessor is sacked after a debacle, and now he finds English clubs playing outstandingly well, with superb individual displays by EQed players all over the shop.

Here's my England side based (largely) on recent form:

Auturac
George
Brookes
Launchbury
Kruis
Robshaw
Fraser
Vunipola
Chudley
Farrell
May
Slade
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

nathan wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I know it was only one game, but........


Anyone out there still pushing the case for selecting Steffon?

Well he is still by some distance Englands best 7, and if I am honest I would prefer someone playing overseas than some NZ reject who comes over to the UK for more money (a critiscm aimed at Armitage) and just happens to have a relative who was English. But my opinion isn't going to change the rule and so I do hope some club makes an effort to sign Armitage in the summer seeing how he could be a marque player and then the debate of is he only winning European player of the year because he plays for Toulon.

lol, he was Poopie today.

Englands "best 7" didn't even get a single turn over today

Not only that but he was turned over by England's next scrum half ( please Eddy!) Joe Simpson twice!

You can have Hughes but I can't be taking Simpson for England. His game management and passing are at times awful. Him and Ford as a combo would be a nightmare.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can have Hughes but I can't be taking Simpson for England. His game management and passing are at times awful. Him and Ford as a combo would be a nightmare.

You have your opinion but I was talking to Eddy

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:    

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can have Hughes but I can't be taking Simpson for England. His game management and passing are at times awful. Him and Ford as a combo would be a nightmare.

You have your opinion but I was talking to Eddy

Thanks for allowing my opinion.

Pls Eddy, don't pick him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can have Hughes but I can't be taking Simpson for England. His game management and passing are at times awful. Him and Ford as a combo would be a nightmare.

I think his passing now is at least the equal of slow arm Youngs. Less crabbing and a far better kicking and running game as well. I'd probably have Care and Simpson as first choices. Shame we have no-one with a really good pass

Hood83 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can have Hughes but I can't be taking Simpson for England. His game management and passing are at times awful. Him and Ford as a combo would be a nightmare.

I think his passing now is at least the equal of slow arm Youngs. Less crabbing and a far better kicking and running game as well. I'd probably have Care and Simpson as first choices. Shame we have no-one with a really good pass

If you could combine Simpson and Harrison you'd have Aaron Smith.

I don't rate Simpson's passing and even less so his (non-existent) game management. Ford has trouble in this area too so pairing him with Simson would be game over, they'd just fanny on together running into traffic.

Fords game management is good, Simpson is probably the most on form scrum half now. He's been on the verge for a while now and I wouldn't mind him included ahead of Care. For the moment I'd go with Youngs though.

After the last two weekends how any one can slate Simpson is beyond me!

Yes he's not perfect (like all players he Frak up still) but his kicking and passing has improved and his game management has been great. He is one of the few 9's who know when to run, kick or pass and which way to go when they're in the opposition 22. He just helped his team get bp wins against the two best sides in Europe and made them look silly along the way!

My team after Europe:

Marler
George
Brooke's
Launchbury
Gaskell
Haskell
Ward
Vunipola
Simpson
Ford
Wade
Hill
Daly
Nowell
Watson

Obviously there's guys missing there but just my selections after the two rounds.

Thank God we don't pick England sides on the last 2 games!

There's only really Gaskell and Ward who wouldn't be a serious candidate there though.

You've got to be happy with the amount of Englishmen putting their hands up. Hopefully they're in the same form come the 6Ns.

Can we please not even discuss O'Conner for England. Especially when we have Kvesic, Fraser, Clifford and a few others playing well.

Yappy...do you really think Gaskell is an England potential?

The way the players heavily criticised for their poor attacking ability for England showed up in a different light this weekend, Farrell's break against Ulster was something I have not seen from him in an England shirt, real acceleration and vision. Likewise Haskell had a stormer, 20 tackles. Something to do with the game plan or daddies instructions you think?

Good to others looking in good form as well, Burrell was good for Saints, Simpson would appear to have learnt game management, Ford played well, BV played all 80 and still looked fresh, Mullan destroyed Stevens against a dominant pack.

One other name from the past that may re-emerge, Charlie Sharples, seems to have got his pace back, fantastic try for the Cherries.

Therein lies the questions WPI - how come they play well for club and in Europe...yet fail to show their best for country.

I do wonder if it has been a coaching issue and tactics in the England situation.

I guess we'll see once and for all when Eddie and his team has had them for a while.

Haskell....ah hes a dilemma aswell.

Class for club...totally inconsistent for Country. Is it the role that hes being asked to play for England?