England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

There are a lot of good young centres coming through at the moment. To Slade, Hill, JJ, Daly, Devoto you can add Stephenson, Tomkins, Sloan and in the longer term maybe Marchant.

The challenge is that England have had a high attrition rate - a big part of Lancaster having 16 or 17 different centre combos was that different players were injured every series. Eddie's going to need a bit of luck in finding a group of 3 or 4 who can play together for long enough to build some understanding.

To some extent he can make his own luck by deciding on the sort of players he wants in what position and enforcing a consistent style. If he wants a big unit at 12, then focus on getting Hill, Devoto, Sloan, Burrell and maybe Tuilagi to play that way. If he wants a 2nd 5/8ths style player, then he needs to develop Slade and possibly Farrell in that role (I've given up on Twelvetrees. Sorry).

13 is a dilemma because of the variety of styles - JJ, Daly, Slade, Tuilagi, perhaps even George Lowe if he stays fit, are all potentials but very different players. Maybe it doesn't matter so much, because they can all create in different ways and if the role of the 13 is to get the ball and make something happen they might be easier to slot in - as long as they can all bring the back three into the game appropriately.

It looks like Slade is out with a broken leg

I guess that means Burrell is back at 12, with JJ at 13, and hopefully Daly on the bench.

Almost a month on and a few have ruled themselves out with injury.

What do people think we're looking at for the starting 23?

Personally I'd go for the below Sgt.

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Slater
6.Robshaw
7.Kvesic
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Farrell

11.Nowell
12.Hill
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

16.George
17.Mako
18.Thomas
19.Kitchener
20.Haskell
21.Care
22.Ford
23.Daly

From that I think all but Slater and Hill are very likely to be in Eddies thoughts as well. That framework allows plenty of continuity but also adds a proper 7, some more carrying and some new talents such as George and Daly.

I hope that he partners Launchbury with Slater as it would gives us a second row with good carrying as well as ballast at scrum time. If Lawes finds form I'd happily have him in the EPS and on the bench but I'd like a bigger pairing to start.

I'd like to see Hill give a go as I think he has better hands around contact than Barritt. His error rate is low and he's very good and taking the ball right up to the line then getting a pass away before contact. Plus he is strong on the crash ball when needed. Barritt seems likely to start with Gustard as defence coach though.

I like that King C. Would have no problems with that 23.

Would JJ be the wing cover with Daly on the bench?

That would be our best option GF yes.

Daly definitely has the pace to cover wing as well but I'd prefer JJ shift as he's done it more often.

Another alternative would be Daly to full back and whoever is at 15 to wing. With Brown at FB that isn't as relative given I don't want him moved out of position at test level again unless it can't be avoided, we saw him caught out there too often already. If Watson were to be the starting full back it could then be a realistic option though.

I do wonder what Clifford could bring to the party..his running and handling would be a huge attribute.

However a Kvesic, Robshaw flanker combo would be very good. Lots focus on Kvesics breakdown work but his defence is very good aswell.

There are some criticisms that Kvesic disappears a little through games but we have to give him a chance now regardless.

And I think Slater would bring a lot that we have missed to that engine room. ANd Kitchener coming off the bench gives us a chance to see him aswell.

I like it

I've read a few newspaper articles online which state that Clifford has impressed Jones with his loose work. As is so often the case with sports journalism it doesn't add much substance to the statement with a quote but when multiple papers report stuff it tends to be true with the England side. The way stuff leaks out is almost impressive at times! Perhaps Jones mentioned Clifford in the same conversation when he talked about Hartley as a potential captain...

Clifford has looked really good. I reckon that Jones will want 2 opensides and 2 blindside as his flankers rather than the 4 blindsides that Bomber went for. Kvesic seems all but nailed on for one of the places competing for 7. If Clifford has impressed then maybe he has a decent shot of being the other. I'd say the second guy could be one of Fraser, Clifford, Harrison or O'Connor on current performance.

As for Kvesic disappearing, all opensides disappear somewhat at one point or another. Whether it be due to the refs interpretations, good work by the opposition double marking him or just a weak personal performance. Especially when you put them under the microscope as Kvesic is currently.

One thing I really like about Kvesic is that even when he doesn't manage the turnover count he'd like his work rate is so high that he still has a less stated impact elsewhere. His tackle count is always very high and he hits a huge number of rucks. In his debut game on the Argentina tour I think he made 29 tackles in total!

Yeah that's what I was saying about Kvesic. His tackle rate and work rate is very high. It would work great in tandem with Robshaw.

Clifford v Fraser... Fraser is a very shrewd operator aswell in that 7 role mind. Although at 26 hes not a kid (neither is he old mind). He has had a tough break with his injuries.
It will be interesting to see where Jones goes that's for sure.

When is it announced.

I'd be happy with that squad. It's going to be interesting to see if there's any bolters.

Yep it seems increasingly likely that we'll get 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Billy which I'm genuinely excited about. I think they could complement each other really well.

I'd take either or with Clifford and Fraser. I rate both highly and would like to see either given a go at some point.

The 6 Nations EPS was named between the 5 and 6th round of European pool matches last year which would make the announcement sometime around the 20th January. I don't think there is a fixed date that has been announced though. Jones may want to wait until the pool stages are complete to get the best view of how guys are showing in Europe.

Is Ben Morgan completely out of the picture?

Does that mean that Nathan Hughes is a cert come the summer?

Morgan has to be involved somewhere, he's unreal.

I'm not sure if Clifford is quite ready tbh, he's worth a training spot but is he good enough?

I agree Sgt, I really like Morgan when hes on form and fit.

Imagine him in a side with a few other carriers in the pack that he can work off.

Imagine a 23 with Hughes, Morgan and Billy involved.

Morgan seems a player happiest at international level, he steps up a few gears for England while looking average for Glos.

Wasn't Nonu like that. Ok for his clubs but always class for NZ.

I agree Morgan (from what ive seen) doesn't seem to shine for Glos,, yet seems to be class for England when hes fit.

Yea Nonu, Jane, Dagg. A few AB's are/were like that, not necessarily a bad thing, I guess some guys just need the extra pressure, adrenaline and quality players around them.

Has Morgan been carrying an injury from the RWC soon. He seems to have featured intermittently for Gloucs and certainly wasn't fit to be in the World Cup squad so it wouldn't be a huge shock if he picked up a knock.

Agreed he seems happiest at International level. For a Gloucs fan it must be truly infuriating. The one thing I would say for Morgan though is that he does often raise his club game for two different causes:

1) When an international window is coming up and he needs to silence anyone who's doubting his form. In these moments it isn't uncommon for him to suddenly score a match turning try in which he runs over or through about 5 people and somehow summons the pace to beat a winger for pace and score from 30/40 metres.

2) In the big games that people will remember. As said above by others he really thrives under the spotlight.

Hopefully we see something like that from him in the next couple of weeks because he is a player that we really need in the squad behind Billy as an option. He is brilliantly dynamic at his best and has gotten England out of a few tricky spots with his carrying.

The big one coming to mind there was against NZ when we had a scrum in our 22 going backwards. Morgs picked up messy ball from the back of the scrum and ran flat over the first 2 defenders in order to charge us back up to to the 10 metre line and front foot ball.

Morgan broke his leg and should never in a million years have gone to the world cup. Has he suffered long term because of that ...who knows.

We need to address this "rushing players back" thing that we do. Ie Manu should not even be considered until maybe NEXT 6N if he is fit and playing well.

Completely agree on rushing players back, look at Corbs, Manu, Morgan, Launch all were rushed back for big tournaments. I think Manu and Slade should both be left out until at least the 2016 AIs

Commentator on BT Sport just said the England squad is named on 13 Jan

Unlucky for some eh?

Slater pulled up injured today, sounds about England's normal run of luck with the 6N looming

Yeah him and didn't May get a bad knee injury last weekend?

One more weekend of Prem matches after tomorrow to impress then!

It will be a real shame if Slater is ruled out. If Jones wants more carriers in his pack and a rock in the scrum to back up his tight head then he would be an good option.

That said Kruis was excellent all game today for Sarries. He is calling the line-out better every week and got more involved carrying this season than I've noticed from him in the past. If Slater is injured and Attwood still playing poorly then he will be a strong bet for the EPS.

I think Kruis is a shoe in anyway. He's playing very well.

If Slater is fit then I'd be tempted by Launchbury, Lawes, Kitch and Slater. After today I'd probably have Kruis in there somewhere even if all 4 are fit. He was a standout player in a fantastic pack performance by Sarries.

How did Lawes get on last night? I can't say I've been overly impressed by him since he's returned from injury. He is yet another guy who looked really burnt out at the RWC and is still easing back.

I just don't want Lawes in there.

I think Kruis is better. He is as effective in the lineout, but he is more effective in the tight exchanges than Lawes.
I think Lancaster liked Lawes for his athleticism..ie his Croft like defensive covering out wide. But I think Launchbury can cover that role. Kruis gives more in the tight. SHame about Slater I hope its not serious. He would be in the frame.

Launchbury, Slater, Kruis and A.N.OTHER - Itoje v Kitchener v ??

With the right pack around him I think Lawes can be very effective. With a need to solidify the scrum and add some bigger ball carriers in the tight areas that skill set isn't really what we need in the boiler room this 6 Nations. He could still be a very useful bench option IMO.

Given Jones will want continuity where possible I could see Lawes being retained alongside Launchbury, Kruis and one of Kitchener or Slater.

Lawes has been playing 6 a lot this year due to Saints back row injury list. He started at 4 yesterday and looked OK although he reverted to BSF when Harrison had to go off.

He is actually making the tight yards this year, not 10m at a time, but close in a yard or two at a time. Last year he was getting stopped dead, this year he is making progress. I pointed out on another post that he has bulked up a bit this year and is now over 18 stone, he still gets through the covering as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Kruis is a shoe in anyway. He's playing very well.

Kruis has been easily Saracen's best lock this season - and was outstanding today.

What's peoples thoughts on Mako starting at loose head? Seems to be in a rich vein of form at the moment both in the tight and in the loose.

Same too for Jamie George. Shame Brookes had to go and get injured because that would've been a hefty front row.

Who will start at 10

Ford or Farrell or is Cipriani back in the mix

What are centre options this week? Barritt et ?

May and Slade out - two genuine talents- so who comes in?

Brown having a mare so far..time to look elsewhere

What is the starting back line?

Farrell is the form 10 but depending on what game plan Jones wants Ford/Cipriani could be in the mix. I reckon he will play pragmatically for the 6 Nations with Farrell at 10.

Joseph or Daly are exciting options at 13. With Gustard as defence coach Barritt is front runner at 12 but young Sam Hill has his fans and is the guy I'd take a punt on. He is very physical in attack and defence but IMO is better at taking the ball right up to the line then getting a pass away to shift the point of attack. This is something Barritt does well for Sarries but has never taken into International rugby.

Slade would have been a favourite to come in at centre so he will be replaced by Barritt or possibly Hill. May will be replaced by Nowell who is having a terrific season.

Brown isn't having a mare by any means. He lost a couple of high balls against a good Gloucester kick chase at the weekend, that aside he had a great assist for one try and looked solid. He is still our best full back by a distance.

9.Youngs/Care - Both in good form
10.Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Barritt
13.Joseph/Daly
14.Watson
15.Brown

Nothing to do with this sport, but I have just looked at the news, Ben Stokes has scored 218 not out against SA, 200 in 163 balls. Why can't England do the equivalent in rugby.

That Stokes innings whilst fabulous is the equivalent in terms of consistency of Tom Wood against NZ years ago, Haskell in every 15th test match, Twelvetrees on debut compared to most the rest of his International chances, etc etc.

We have players who have shown themselves capable of cracking performances. They just haven't done so consistently. Similar to our cricket team the challenge is identifying the guys who can do so with regularity and building a squad who complement each other and can be interchanged as necessary when form, injury and the opposition demand it.

Continuing the off topic cricket analogy... The reason our cricket side (in tests anyway) is currently more consistent than the rugby side is the presence of a couple of genuinely great England players in Cook and Anderson to lead them. If we had one of the outstanding forward leaders from '03 such as Johnson, Hill or Back in the current pack it would look a hell of a lot more composed. Similarly if we could add Robinson or Greenwood to our back line for some composure and occasional burst of magic.

Well in an unspectacular game Robshaw just put a marker down with a MOM performance.

I would say hes in line for the 6 shirt...

Yep you can pencil Robshaw down at 6

I'd more than likely stick with Robshaw but this is more to do with genuine challengers rather than Robshaw being a top class option.

It would be good to have a bit of continuity with a new 7, then look to find a better alternative moving forward.

Whats peoples thoughts on McColl the GLos full back.

Everytime I see him he looks very good. Big guy, pace, strong.

I would say Kvesic in doing a good job of putting himself at 7 aswell.

Do we need another full back option Geordie?

There's already Brown, Goode, Watson, Nowell, Foden and Pennell!

Pack will be

Marler, George, Cole
Launchbury, Kruis
Robshaw, Kvesic, Vunipola

Not a bad unit.

Only question marks are weight of the locks, and power players.

Billy has all but nailed the 8 shirt with some fantastic performances this season as well. He was massive at the weekend.

Mako is scrummaging a lot better this season too. Many have written him off as a poor scrummager for life seemingly but it wasn't too long ago that Marler was very inconsistent there too. Given some time with his club to improve his technique (with Mako seems to be doing) and a run the starting XV to establish himself, Marler is now a strength at set piece. If Mako were to start at LH I wouldn't be surprised to see some very accomplished performances from him. Particularly with 2 locks who can offer a decent shove.

If he can solidify his set piece at test level then it's very likely his carrying will come out more as well. It is always difficult for a prop to shine around the park if they are under pressure with job 1. Now that is improving the rest of his game could as well.

yappysnap wrote:Do we need another full back option Geordie?

There's already Brown, Goode, Watson, Nowell, Foden and Pennell!

Not saying we need him, just pointing out that hes a FB whos got pace, size and is playing very well at the moment.

Watson - Mostly a winger
Nowell - Mostly a winger or 13
Foden - Been blighted by injuries
Pennell - Not a bad option.
Goode - Not rated at international level
Brown - Suffering a slump in form / confidence , maybe needs a rest.

king_carlos wrote:Billy has all but nailed the 8 shirt with some fantastic performances this season as well. He was massive at the weekend.

Mako is scrummaging a lot better this season too. Many have written him off as a poor scrummager for life seemingly but it wasn't too long ago that Marler was very inconsistent there too. Given some time with his club to improve his technique (with Mako seems to be doing) and a run the starting XV to establish himself, Marler is now a strength at set piece. If Mako were to start at LH I wouldn't be surprised to see some very accomplished performances from him. Particularly with 2 locks who can offer a decent shove.

If he can solidify his set piece at test level then it's very likely his carrying will come out more as well. It is always difficult for a prop to shine around the park if they are under pressure with job 1. Now that is improving the rest of his game could as well.

That's what we thought of Marler, but we're yet to see his carrying game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Billy has all but nailed the 8 shirt with some fantastic performances this season as well. He was massive at the weekend.

Mako is scrummaging a lot better this season too. Many have written him off as a poor scrummager for life seemingly but it wasn't too long ago that Marler was very inconsistent there too. Given some time with his club to improve his technique (with Mako seems to be doing) and a run the starting XV to establish himself, Marler is now a strength at set piece. If Mako were to start at LH I wouldn't be surprised to see some very accomplished performances from him. Particularly with 2 locks who can offer a decent shove.

If he can solidify his set piece at test level then it's very likely his carrying will come out more as well. It is always difficult for a prop to shine around the park if they are under pressure with job 1. Now that is improving the rest of his game could as well.

That's what we thought of Marler, but we're yet to see his carrying game.

Being a bigger bloke than Marler should help with getting over the gainline against stronger defences. It isn't uncommon to see guys who carry well in club rugby struggle to impose their physicality on test defences in the same manner. Marler is incredibly strong for his size and in great physical shape but isn't actually that huge a bloke for an international prop.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Do we need another full back option Geordie?

There's already Brown, Goode, Watson, Nowell, Foden and Pennell!

Not saying we need him, just pointing out that hes a FB whos got pace, size and is playing very well at the moment.

Watson - Mostly a winger
Nowell - Mostly a winger or 13
Foden - Been blighted by injuries
Pennell - Not a bad option.
Goode - Not rated at international level
Brown - Suffering a slump in form / confidence , maybe needs a rest.

Watson will more than likely end up a 15 long term. He has started at 15 in all of Baths European games. I reckon he is a guy who looks much more dangerous with that bit more room to roam and time to asses his options.