England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

Looks like Joseph is going to be back playing in the next fortnight. Bath have said if he doesn't play this weekend he will be available for Wasps next week. Good news for England this. Lets hope he can find some good form before the 6Ns as he is a shoe in for the squad.

The thought of Ford, Slade and Joseph in the midfield looks pretty good providing we can give them good front foot ball off the pack. And to think we have Tuilagi also available soon as well.

Could the backs question finally be solved, both starting and bench cover?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm surprised by that as I think Slade is supremely talented and I'm almosr certain he'll start for Jones.

I think he's talented too, but I'm not sure that he's got enough gas for the centres. He certainly has a future in the set-up but I'm unsure if it'll be at centre or fly half.

Streather was originally brought in as centre, I recall watching him there in the dark days in the Championship.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm surprised by that as I think Slade is supremely talented and I'm almosr certain he'll start for Jones.

I think he's talented too, but I'm not sure that he's got enough gas for the centres. He certainly has a future in the set-up but I'm unsure if it'll be at centre or fly half.

Streather was originally brought in as centre, I recall watching him there in the dark days in the Championship.

True he was a centre at Nottingham. I thought Sarries had used him only on wing, but as I type this I realise I am thinking of Ellery

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm surprised by that as I think Slade is supremely talented and I'm almosr certain he'll start for Jones.

I think he's talented too, but I'm not sure that he's got enough gas for the centres. He certainly has a future in the set-up but I'm unsure if it'll be at centre or fly half.

Has he been to Margot Wells yet? She got Brown (and a few others) a shade quicker, and that made an immense difference.

Or do clubs like Exeter have a sprint coach on their books?

Should we not give Slade a chance before we start pulling him apart...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Should we not give Slade a chance before we start pulling him apart...

No?
He shows talent, therefore we must rubbish him

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Should we not give Slade a chance before we start pulling him apart...

No?
He shows talent, therefore we must rubbish him

Ah sorry yes, my mistake

I don't think anybody is pulling him apart. I think he lacks a bit of gas for a centre but he's got some other fantastic attributes. Maybe he could be our Conrad Smith?

Not that big of a deal though. Is he really much slower than Devoto or Tuilagi?

Get rid of him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not that big of a deal though. Is he really much slower than Devoto or Tuilagi?

Tuilagi is deceptively quick so I'd say yes he is. Again I think Devoto is quicker too, he was pretty rapid when at FB.

It's all about balance end of the day and pace is less important at 12 (over 13)

You have to understand though guys, myself and Sgt are fully qualified in spotting peoples Achilles heels / weaknesses because we have watched sh1te for years with our own team

All players have their positives and negatives, it's just finding the balance as I said earlier. You can understand why we've had so many combinations over the years in the centres, nobody ever really stands out (perhaps JJ in recent times)

Said this before, but will say it again. Let's stop not picking players because of what they can't do, and start picking players because of what they can do. With that attitude NZ would never have picked guys like Lomu, Savea, Coles, etc. Weaknesses can be improved to a degree, but to play at international level players above all need to be exceptional at the strong areas of their games.

I think that spot on.

We are not good at developing players to their potential.

Take Nonu and Manu.
Similar styles of players initially, but Nonu has developed his handling, runs for space rather than defenders etc. he has become the bench mark centre.

Manu (is at a different stage of his career and has had injury issues I accept0 but doesn't look like he has done anything with his handling and not progressed much.

We have had loads of players who fal in to that bracket through the years...and still with Wade etc...

I've forgot what Manu can do to be honest, it's been that long.

Simpson, Ford, May, Eastmond, Daly, Wade, Watson


There we go, a nice quick England backline

So do you go with Manu at 12 and tell him to model himself on Nonu? Do you go with Slade at 13 and bring in a second playmaker that way? Or do we stick with Joseph? Does that mean Brown needs to go to bring in a playmaker at 15?

I think Eddie Jones has to decide on the style of play he wants (and obviously consider the players available) and then pick the team for that gameplan. So if his dream centre partnership is Tuilagi and Joseph and neither of them make it to the Six Nations, he should go with Burrell and Daly as the most "like-for-like" replacements. If he wants to get a playmaker in the centres, he should consider Slade and possibly Farrell, etc.

Much though I'd like to see Manu back we have to forget about him until he strings some games together. It's been a long time since that happened

robbo277 wrote:So do you go with Manu at 12 and tell him to model himself on Nonu? Do you go with Slade at 13 and bring in a second playmaker that way? Or do we stick with Joseph? Does that mean Brown needs to go to bring in a playmaker at 15?

I think Eddie Jones has to decide on the style of play he wants (and obviously consider the players available) and then pick the team for that gameplan. So if his dream centre partnership is Tuilagi and Joseph and neither of them make it to the Six Nations, he should go with Burrell and Daly as the most "like-for-like" replacements. If he wants to get a playmaker in the centres, he should consider Slade and possibly Farrell, etc.

No not specifically move him to 12. But model himself on how Nonu has improved himself through the years - YES.

Manu has strong skills, but his handling isn't great etc. Regardless of what position you play you should always be looking to improve and its something I really don't think English players are great at. In fact I would go so far as to say European players don't improve as well as the SH teams.

yappysnap wrote:Simpson, Ford, May, Eastmond, Daly, Wade, Watson


There we go, a nice quick England backline

It would be quick getting steamrollered backwards aswell

GeordieFalcon wrote:

robbo277 wrote:So do you go with Manu at 12 and tell him to model himself on Nonu? Do you go with Slade at 13 and bring in a second playmaker that way? Or do we stick with Joseph? Does that mean Brown needs to go to bring in a playmaker at 15?

I think Eddie Jones has to decide on the style of play he wants (and obviously consider the players available) and then pick the team for that gameplan. So if his dream centre partnership is Tuilagi and Joseph and neither of them make it to the Six Nations, he should go with Burrell and Daly as the most "like-for-like" replacements. If he wants to get a playmaker in the centres, he should consider Slade and possibly Farrell, etc.

No not specifically move him to 12. But model himself on how Nonu has improved himself through the years - YES.

Manu has strong skills, but his handling isn't great etc. Regardless of what position you play you should always be looking to improve and its something I really don't think English players are great at. In fact I would go so far as to say European players don't improve as well as the SH teams.

I read this a lot, usually by fans who don't watch him week in week out playing for tigers (well, nobody is at the moment!). 

He does have good handling skills, wouldn't say brilliant. He does show when he last played for the Tigers, just doesn't seem to for England. Is that because of the higher level, players he lines up with or just tactics?

Well I guess that's a serious question then Nathan.

Maybe its the quality of the players around and the tactics. But we haven't seen a performance of great Handling from him at International level. He has had to play with Farrell for the most part though.

Id also say in his defence that he hasn't been used properly ie players putting him in to space rather than just using him as a bettering ram.

But its not just manu im talking about here. English players development does grind to a halt in many cases...

Ahh the mythical animal that is Manu – with the size of Tyson Fury, the speed of Usain Bolt, the handling skills of the bald one from the Harlem Globetrotters and the good looks of Joey Essex. Will we ever see his ilk again?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Ahh the mythical animal that is Manu – with the size of Tyson Fury, the speed of Usain Bolt, the handling skills of the bald one from the Harlem Globetrotters and the good looks of Joey Essex. Will we ever see his ilk again?

Belated Christmas present, he's due back Boxing Day.


I'm not saying his handling is brilliant, I don't think he's that sort of player - I don't think nonu's handling is brilliant either for that matter.

I would say he has very good handling skills. However, more often than not, the only passing option with England was a single isolated winger against 2+ defenders. When he has passing options he can put lovely passes in, most often seen when he's broken the line and passed to supporter runners (and done it much better at full pelt than others). His passing is better than Twelvetrees as well (IMO). So not earth shattering but good enough, certainly.

England's midfield will be a challenge for EJ to resolve, but at least it looks like he will have options. Slade to me looks more suited to 10 and 12 rather than 13, but of course he plays there for Exeter and did go quite well with Burgess against France. Joseph has to remain the stand out option at 13 and only when Tuialgi demonstrates fitness and form will he return, which I am sure he will. Daly is in decent form and brings a huge boot along with pace and good passing skills - assuming he is more a 13 than a 12?

For me I would go pair Ford with Slade and Joseph. Manu off the bench if he earns a spot, but I would also like to see Daly on the bench instead of Manu if he is not fit.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Simpson, Ford, May, Eastmond, Daly, Wade, Watson


There we go, a nice quick England backline

It would be quick getting steamrollered backwards aswell

I thought speed was the essential part of an International players game?

After all Wood and Robshaw aren't quick enough, Easter was often talked of as being too slow, we lambasted Wigglesworth and Ford for not being quick enough. We've also slated Brown, Nowell and Goode for all being too slow, now Slade's apparently too slow as well!

Why can't England produce players that can run quickly?!

Ford is a little whippet! He can really shift.

Nobody has said Slade isn't fast enough, I mentioned he lacks a bit of gas to play at 13 and would suit 10/12 more.

It's all about balance.....that backline would get absolutely murdered by most sides but they'd be fun to watch if they got ball in hand. It's a good looking Ba's backline....

Have to agree, when ford wants to he can really shift

Yea I meant Farrell... My bad there.

I do think we get hung up on wanting the perfect players from day 1 though. Good tackler, really quick, game breaker, passing ability, good kicking, vision and on and on.

In reality what players come into Internationals like that?

Just wondering. Eastmond was electric against a super physical Leicester team and made the opposition backs look stupid with his footwork before he got taken out.

Do people think he'll ever get another chance for England?

yappysnap wrote:Do people think he'll ever get another chance for England?

Jones has favoured ex-league players in the past, so it's not impossible. If he does employ Hatley, then someone from Bath will also have his ear, albeit with specific responsibilities elsewhere.

My feeling on Eastmond is that he is a much better player now both in attack and defense, compared with when he last played for England.  Also if I remember he had three games against the All Blacks (2 in NZ) and one against the Boks, so never really played against any weaker side.

Also many of his games were with Farrell, so never any chance to play with Ford.

I would like to see him given another chance even if just to rule him out.

How may games would justify another chance?

Eastmond should have been a scrum half.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How may games would justify another chance?

That is the question.

Realistically the actual experienced 12's playing 12 for their clubs that Eddie could pick are:

Twelvetrees - Incredibly hit and miss, this season is probably his worst club form to date with him being a lot more miss then hit. Tries too much, too hard when it isn't on. Seems to lack a rugby brain and the sense of when something's on or not. Physically he is right for the job and in theory he has the complete skillset, he just fails to use them and then makes a silly mistake to compound it. Can kick for goal though.

Barrett - Basically a flanker at 12, he'll tackle a lot and miss very few, really good in the rucks and gets turn overs too. But he struggles to pass the ball, has poor vision and is a lot less impressive on the crash ball then you'd think some one his size would be.

Burrell - A real enigma. Looking at him he should be a good mix of the above two players, but he's not. He struggles to carry the ball through tackles, in defence he misses his own tackles too easily as he's caught out of position or is too slow. He has a good variety of ball skills, but is very inconsistent with them. His passing and kicking can be good or poor moment to moment. Lastly his handling is dreadful, he seems to drop a lot of passes.

Eastmond - Physically looks like he may be too small for International rugby, he has progressed a lot though and puts in tackles above his weight. Has a great step off both feet and good vision and reflexes. Question marks over his tactical kicking and passing though. Doesn't seem to get involved at rucks either.

Sam Hill is first choice for Exeter...22, 6' , 16 st ....well worth a look.

Is Slade now playing at 12 for Exeter? That seems to be his natural position, and the one he should aim for given the presence of JJ and Tuilagi (and Daly?) arguing about the 13 shirt.

I lost faith in Burrell after he butchered a few tries in the 6N. Just not looking for support at the right time. However, if JJ and Tuilagi don't show form in January, I'd play him at 13 with Slade at 12.

As to how many games justify a chance? You can't pick players only on how they play/played for England. You need to see how they do in the Heineken Cup and big Premiership clashes. It sounds like JJ is back for Bath v Wasps, so we might see JJ v Daly. 1st January: Burrell v Slade.

Slade for 12!

So have we decided Slade isn't good enough already

Alex_Germany wrote:Is Slade now playing at 12 for Exeter? That seems to be his natural position, and the one he should aim for given the presence of JJ and Tuilagi (and Daly?) arguing about the 13 shirt.

I lost faith in Burrell after he butchered a few tries in the 6N. Just not looking for support at the right time. However, if JJ and Tuilagi don't show form in January, I'd play him at 13 with Slade at 12.

As to how many games justify a chance? You can't pick players only on how they play/played for England. You need to see how they do in the Heineken Cup and big Premiership clashes. It sounds like JJ is back for Bath v Wasps, so we might see JJ v Daly. 1st January: Burrell v Slade.

Just write Tuilagi off for the 6N. He might be back for the summer but he needs to play games for Leicester, remind us of what he used to do, and not get injured for a bit. We have to be careful with JJ too tbh.

Agree...forget altogether about Manu.

12's - Slade, Hill, Burrell
13's - JJ, Daly, Slade, Burrell

Others
Lowe, Stephenson, Eastmond, etc etc

Surely we can find the right balance of size, pace and talent to make a decent feckin centre combo!!!!!!

Alex_Germany wrote:Is Slade now playing at 12 for Exeter? That seems to be his natural position, and the one he should aim for given the presence of JJ and Tuilagi (and Daly?) arguing about the 13 shirt.

I lost faith in Burrell after he butchered a few tries in the 6N. Just not looking for support at the right time. However, if JJ and Tuilagi don't show form in January, I'd play him at 13 with Slade at 12.

As to how many games justify a chance? You can't pick players only on how they play/played for England. You need to see how they do in the Heineken Cup and big Premiership clashes. It sounds like JJ is back for Bath v Wasps, so we might see JJ v Daly. 1st January: Burrell v Slade.

Has Slade played 12 with any regularity for Exe? I agree Slade at 12 and Burrell at 13 seems a more logical positioning. But Slade seems to play mostly 10 and 13 at Exeter, whilst Burrell plays mostly 12 at Saints (yes, I know he played mostly 13 for Lancaster).

So Eddie has a few guys to pick from for the summer, we've so far mentioned:

10 - Ford, Farrell, Slade, Cipriani

12 - Eastmond, Burrell, Hill, Devoto

13 - Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly, Slade

That's a lot of players to pick from! Just playing them in those combinations listed leads to some interesting backlines, let alone mixing and matching.

doctor_grey wrote:
Has Slade played 12 with any regularity for Exe?  I agree Slade at 12 and Burrell at 13 seems a more logical positioning.  But Slade seems to play mostly 10 and 13 at Exeter, whilst Burrell plays mostly 12 at Saints (yes, I know he played mostly 13 for Lancaster).

Slade on the outside of Burrell in defence, on the inside in attack?

I'd prefer Slade + JJ. If JJ is not yet back to form, then in theory I'd prefer Slade + Daly, but this is perhaps too inexperienced a centre pairing.

If Ford is at 10, then England need one of Slade or Daly to take long range penalties.

You can understand the issues any coach has, finding that elusive centre combo.

It's fine and well saying lets try this guy and lets try him, but a partnership needs time to grow. Realistically, I hope Eddie has a good look in training and sticks with a 9-13 combination throughout the 6N. I'm a firm believer that players need time to grow together and only time on the park does this. If they have a bad game, stick with it and give them the confidence to grow into the role.

I'd also look to go with Slade at 12 out of the current options, he could be a very good 12. I wouldn't like Daly outside him but I'd be happy with JJ. I like the look of Devoto also at 12 but he's not having the best of seasons from what I've seen.

Its difficult as there is a lot of choice and all are young with work in progress or seasoned but never excelled.

Pooly, without doubt time together is key for all across the team but I agree it seems more important at centre. Both attack and defence depend on good co-ordination between the two. We have been a little unfortunate with injuries in the centre where as soon as someone seems promising they get injured. But we'll see.

Totally agree Hammer.

You hear a lot of....lets try this guy, lets try this. One bad game and everybody will be calling for somebody else. I just want Jones to figure out his best backline and stick with it for a run of games. They'll be ups and downs but it's always better to introduce players into a settled backline rather than keep trying different options.

It was one of SL's major downfalls, he just wouldn't stick with a backline. Yes injuries happen but he was never sure of what he wanted I feel.