Silly season transfer rumours III...

First topic message reminder :

Previous seasonal silliness:
https://www.606v2.com/t57129-silly-season-transfer-rumours
https://www.606v2.com/t58562-silly-season-transfer-rumours-continued


The place to confirm rumours, deny them, or viciously start new ones of your own.

No 7&1/2 remember the cap is going up at the end of the season and they've lost Burgess and brought in Denton. Monetary wide that's not like for like.

Munkian they do have an academy and they have a few players from it in and around the first team; Dunn, Palma Newport, Catt, Spencer, Ewels, Mercer, Cook, Devoto and Banahan. Not that impressive in previous years but operating better now.

True though Burgess was outside the cap. They have a very good squad!

munkian wrote:Do they even have an academy ?

Bath do have an academy but I wouldn't rate it very highly compared to most other clubs.

Sam none of those players are really that stellar though. Competent club men but at the moment can you seem any of them flourishing at international level?

Devoto is probably the best prospect but hasn't done anything of note yet, I know Banahan used to be an international, doesn't seem to have recovered from Ickle Shane incident.

I bet the Dragons finance team are pretty annoyed about losing him for nothing. Replacing Burgess and Fearns with Faletau and Denton looks like some pretty good business, although possibly a bit stretched during the international windows. It will probably accelerate Garvey's move to lock too.

The cap is going up again next season, so I think there will be more big name signings across the league.

Bath Academy got wrecked by Tigers academy last season for the 3rd place spot.

Been some big signings so far for next season in the AP
Toomua (Tigers)
Falatau (Bath)
Picamoles (Saints)

Wonder which club will be the next to secure a marquee signing? or what positions to those clubs need to really strengthen?

Londontiger and I were chatting about Sarries on the Welsh players thread.

I thought Saracens would consider Rhys Webband Schalk Burger as replacements for De Kock, and Burger respectively.


Londontiger mentioned Lozowoski which I think is likely as a replacement for Hodgson due to his lack of game time.

I thought Schalk Burger because he's considering a move to the UK - he's obviously a high profile SA player, would be following in the footsteps of the likes of Smit and Pienaar.

Would add to Sarries' notoriety too!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/schalk-burger-keen-on-move-to-england-after-super-rugby-season-34157605.html

Tigers have a great academy...they got beat heavily by Saracens on Sunday...but theres some good players there....

Welly wrote: Bath Academy got wrecked by Tigers academy last season for the 3rd place spot.

Been some big signings so far for next season in the AP
Toomua (Tigers)
Falatau  (Bath)
Picamoles (Saints)

Wonder which club will be the next to secure a marquee signing? or what positions to those clubs need to really strengthen?

It wont be us.

Beshocked I never said they were producing stellar players. I only said they had an academy that produced some squad players. They have some age grade players that could step up but none in the back row at present. Bath seem to have been slow in focusing on their academy as opposed to the likes of Quins and Sarries (despite their spending reputation).

formerly known as Sam wrote:Beshocked I never said they were producing stellar players. I only said they had an academy that produced some squad players. They have some age grade players that could step up but none in the back row at present. Bath seem to have been slow in focusing on their academy as opposed to the likes of Quins and Sarries  (despite their spending reputation).

Sam you and I are in agreement.

Not saying that you said they were stellar. Just saying that even though Bath have an academy, their academy is not contributing to England in terms of Bath academy products playing for England.

It's not helpful to England to have an academy just producing good club players. Good for Bath though.

Not every player of course can/will make the grade at international level but Bath need to up their standard IMO.

Well of those academy players listed, most if not all have played for England U20s/ 18's. Ewels was captain last season. If they make the grade after that is not really down to the academy I would argue.

There was a bit of a lull at the Bath academy with coincided with the change to a more regional academy system and the emergence of Exeter as a top flight force. Prior to that players from Devon/Cornwall and the big public schools west of Swindon (Colstons, Millfield etc.) used to mostly appear at Bath at some point even if they ended up signing for other clubs. There has been a revamp now and the academy is looking a lot better than say 5 years ago.

Faletau and Denton replacing Fearns and Burgess is some damn good business. Seems Bath and Sarries will be the ones competing with the French clubs, and not just for silverware.

mikey_dragon wrote:Faletau and Denton replacing Fearns and Burgess is some damn good business. Seems Bath and Sarries will be the ones competing with the French clubs, and not just for silverware.

Denton spent more of his debut sin binned than on the field and followed it up by an anonymous outing off the bench. I think next season he'll be fully firing and with Falatau Bath will be a threat on all fronts. This season they have injuries and their menacing back line is showing the pressure of playing on the back foot.

formerly known as Sam wrote:No 7&1/2 remember the cap is going up at the end of the season and they've lost Burgess and brought in Denton. Monetary wide that's not like for like.

Munkian they do have an academy and they have a few players from it in and around the first team; Dunn, Palma Newport, Catt, Spencer, Ewels, Mercer, Cook, Devoto and Banahan. Not that impressive in previous years but operating better now.

That's because they just nicked the best from LI's academy instead ...

That strategy has worked out quite well particularly with Joseph and Garvey.

Anthony Watson is surely as high up that list as those two!

Ha yes I knew I'd miss an obvious one amongst all the signings of LI academy players they'd made.

They at least waited until Tom Homer was out of the academy before they stole him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ha yes I knew I'd miss an obvious one amongst all the signings of LI academy players they'd made.

It's easy to miss one out of so many ...

mikey_dragon wrote:They at least waited until Tom Homer was out of the academy before they stole him.

We did them a favor there though. He's terrible and they got Sisi back, who is strong

How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

Wasn't he at one time considered one of the great hopes for English Rugby?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

for the same reason gopperth is, goal kicking.

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

Wasn't he at one time considered one of the great hopes for English Rugby?

Great hope may be over-egging it, but certainly a hope. He was the leading points scorer in the 2008 JWC and then played agin in 2009, though I would argue even then some of his team mates were brighter prospects.

2009 JWC Semi Final winning team:

Tom Homer (London Irish); George Lowe (Harlequins), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby); Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), James Clark (London Irish), Bob Baker (London Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt), Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens) for J Clark 33, Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) for Baker 56, Jack Cobden (Leicester Tigers) for Sharples 59. Not used: Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby), Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons).

Repeated injuries didn't do him any favours either. He still managed to win the AP golden boot at 19/20, which is a pretty decent effort whichever way you look at it. Was always a touch limited (although he had his moments) in open play, so when his kicking seemed to decline after his last injury, he was always likely to struggle a touch.

Still time though.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

Wasn't he at one time considered one of the great hopes for English Rugby?

Great hope may be over-egging it, but certainly a hope. He was the leading points scorer in the 2008 JWC and then played agin in 2009, though I would argue even then some of his team mates were brighter prospects.

2009 JWC Semi Final winning team:

Tom Homer (London Irish); George Lowe (Harlequins), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby); Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), James Clark (London Irish), Bob Baker (London Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt), Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens) for J Clark 33, Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) for Baker 56, Jack Cobden (Leicester Tigers) for Sharples 59. Not used: Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby), Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons).

Funnily enough, I was talking to Carl Fearns about that team a couple of weeks ago, though he didn't mention the subs so didn't realise Jamie George was in the team.

The question is why are these players taking so long to come through?

Jamie George and Kitchener for example are about 25-26 now and just pushing for Senior spots.

Does it really take 5-6 years to get them up to speed??

From that team only Youngs and Lawes have really kicked on as internationals, although I guess a few others have been around the fringes. Certainly not a good % success rate there although a few like Trinder, Eves, Fearns and Ovens have really struggled with injuries.

As an aside Homer's younger brother is a SH in the Bath academy ( the family live nearby) and looks half decent.

But its not just that team Bathman...I imagine the percentage that really progress well from the U20's must be exceptionally low?

WHY...Dammit...WHY???

At a guess injuries will play a part as well as the fact that some people will be in that team because they developed quickly and were bigger/ stronger/ faster than some of their peer group. A few more years of full time training would smooth out the differences between many players I would think, so its only the real standout players who make the next step up.

Arguably we only need a few from each year to make it. The England team will have players from across a ten year range, ideally with most in their late 20's/early 30's, so with such a large pool to choose from in theory we only need a couple of players from each age bracket to step up each year.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12553/10094645/mike-ford-hopes-rugby-union-clubs-spend-wisely-after-baths-toby-faletau-signing

This must be a joke, right? There's no way he can be this lacking in self-awareness.

Oh well, thanks for the lecture.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But its not just that team Bathman...I imagine the percentage that really progress well from the U20's must be exceptionally low?

WHY...Dammit...WHY???

Not too sure about that. There will always be the odd overlooked player, but the side at the WC was one of the youngest England squads of the pro era. Given it's made up of players from early 20s to early/mid 30s, it's not a surprise to only see a handful of players from each JWC crop involved. Expect it would be the same for most countries.

Edit - just seen bathman made the same point more eloquently. Also need to factor the odd player who developed late and wasn't involved at that level (Easter etc) and a hopefully limited number of guys from overseas.

Yes there both valid comments.

I would be interested to see some sort of rough info that shows break downs of:

1) How many progress from the U20's (and in what time period it takes from leaving U20's to making the Seniors)

2) How many come in from prem teams but haven't had U20 representation

3) How many come from the lower leagues

4) and how many as EQ'd foreign nationals.

Probably difficult to get hold of, but be an interesting read.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

Wasn't he at one time considered one of the great hopes for English Rugby?

Great hope may be over-egging it, but certainly a hope. He was the leading points scorer in the 2008 JWC and then played agin in 2009, though I would argue even then some of his team mates were brighter prospects.

2009 JWC Semi Final winning team:

Tom Homer (London Irish); George Lowe (Harlequins), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby); Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), James Clark (London Irish), Bob Baker (London Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt), Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens) for J Clark 33, Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) for Baker 56, Jack Cobden (Leicester Tigers) for Sharples 59. Not used: Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby), Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons).

This is a bit strange - my initial thought when I saw the line-up was that was a very good team. Then I had the same thought as Bathman and Geordie: A lot of those players have been very good club players, but so far in their careers have not made the jump to the next level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question is why are these players taking so long to come through?

Jamie George and Kitchener for example are about 25-26 now and just pushing for Senior spots.

Does it really take 5-6 years to get them up to speed??

Kitch was an ever present for Tigers last season and only missed games through injury. Parling was shifted to six towards the end of the season to accommodate his return. He also has the best AP line out stats for last season. He's only missed games this season due to a pre season rib injury. Very much a key player for Tigers.

I meant for England Sam.

Kithcener was playing regularly for Wuss I think and obviously in the U20's England side, and yet at 26 I think he is now...is only really pushing for a spot in the squad and even starting.

The difference in preferences of playing style from U20 to senior level has hampered guys progressing as well. At U20 we have tended to get success by using our set piece as a platform to launch attacking play from with wingers like Nowell, Watson, May, Yarde and Earle all lethal at that level when given ball.

For a long time during the same period our senior side either used the set piece to manufacture penalties or launch the very creative attacking ploy of where's Manu, give him the ball. Guys like Trinder and Lowe were unlikely to excel in that system.

Made the step up - Lawes and Youngs

Hampered by injury - Trinder, Lowe, Eves, Fearns

Chances lessened by senior sides playing style not suiting theirs - Trinder, Lowe, Fearns

Hampered by his own stupidity - Calum Clark

Had developed physically faster than others at that age then were caught up - Gaskell, Clegg, Eves

Should have been given a chance IMO - Kitchener

GeordieFalcon wrote:I meant for England Sam.

Kithcener was playing regularly for Wuss I think and obviously in the U20's England side, and yet at 26 I think he is now...is only really pushing for a spot in the squad and even starting.

I think he's captained the Saxons. It's a mystery to me why he hasn't been given a chance. A mobile 19 stone line out technician sounds ideal for a team who need more bulk in the scrum, jumpers to help a shaking line out and big aggressive ball carriers in the loose.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:How is Homer still and AP player??? He's absolutley awful.

Wasn't he at one time considered one of the great hopes for English Rugby?

Great hope may be over-egging it, but certainly a hope. He was the leading points scorer in the 2008 JWC and then played agin in 2009, though I would argue even then some of his team mates were brighter prospects.

2009 JWC Semi Final winning team:

Tom Homer (London Irish); George Lowe (Harlequins), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby); Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), James Clark (London Irish), Bob Baker (London Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt), Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens) for J Clark 33, Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) for Baker 56, Jack Cobden (Leicester Tigers) for Sharples 59. Not used: Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby), Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons).

This is a bit strange - my initial thought when I saw the line-up was that was a very good team.  Then I had the same thought as Bathman and Geordie:  A lot of those players have been very good club players, but so far in their careers have not made the jump to the next level.  

I remember a similar team playing against Wales. Behind the impressive forward pack Tom Homer was the star player, he even looked a lot bigger back then and Jiffy couldn't believe it. From what I remember a lot of these lads had already played a number of games for their premiership club, which is part of the reason why they were so good at the time. It is strange that more of them haven't progressed further then they already have but I guess you only get a handful of international class players per U20s team - not just in England.

Yeah I agree Sam.

It boils down to some of Lancasters selections again.

Come on we did get Botha, Parling and Kruse though.

Anyway I feel we've hijacked this thread slightly...

Jack Clifford turns down Bath and re-signs for Harlequins.

Brilliant for us as without tempting fate I think the team will be built around him and a few others in the future.

Yappysnap Quins are 4th at the moment, Bath are 9th. Helps your bargaining position.

Plus I am sure Faletau signing for Bath, probably was another good reason not to leave Quins!

I've always thought Kitchener was a little work shy in the Richie Grey mould. Perhaps he's improved a little at Tigers over the years.

Sgt work shy forwards don't end up as starters for Tigers irrespective of ability. Look how Brookes was shown the door. Certainly seen Kitchener toughen up and get more involved in the right since his move to Tigers. One of our best players last season.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12553/10094645/mike-ford-hopes-rugby-union-clubs-spend-wisely-after-baths-toby-faletau-signing

This must be a joke, right? There's no way he can be this lacking in self-awareness.

Oh well, thanks for the lecture.

I'm lost for words ... I wonder if he understands the term hypocrisy ...

Heaf wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12553/10094645/mike-ford-hopes-rugby-union-clubs-spend-wisely-after-baths-toby-faletau-signing

This must be a joke, right? There's no way he can be this lacking in self-awareness.

Oh well, thanks for the lecture.

I'm lost for words ...  I wonder if he understands the term hypocrisy ...

Oddly, everything he says is right.  Which, of course, makes him sound like an ass.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sgt work shy forwards don't end up as starters for Tigers irrespective of ability. Look how Brookes was shown the door. Certainly seen Kitchener toughen up and get more involved in the right since his move to Tigers. One of our best players last season.

Who is going to do the Tom Croft joke?

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap Quins are 4th at the moment, Bath are 9th. Helps your bargaining position.

Plus I am sure Faletau signing for Bath, probably was another good reason not to leave Quins!

Clifford is almost first choice at quins isn't he? With Easter leaving at end of year, that frees up a spot. We've got Denton Louw, Faletau and Fasilitoa as international 6/8 options, with Houston and Garvey covering, so i can see why he's stayed. Surprised that we were indeed in for him, even though it looks like we are losing Sisi permanently.