Silly season transfer rumours III...

First topic message reminder :

Previous seasonal silliness:
https://www.606v2.com/t57129-silly-season-transfer-rumours
https://www.606v2.com/t58562-silly-season-transfer-rumours-continued


The place to confirm rumours, deny them, or viciously start new ones of your own.

Bathite wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sgt work shy forwards don't end up as starters for Tigers irrespective of ability. Look how Brookes was shown the door. Certainly seen Kitchener toughen up and get more involved in the right since his move to Tigers. One of our best players last season.

Who is going to do the Tom Croft joke?

Game plan. We do something similar now in that six and eight split right and left and seven roams in between. Hence why we've seen Mike Williams motoring down the wing a couple of times this season.

Wasn't Croft always on the wing so he could be nearest to the physio?

Probably the shortest route to limp off the pitch.

They normally put him or Mafi wide because they were quick enough to support the back plays and tall enough to either defend or attack cross field kicks.

They tried to do the same with Jamie Gibson - but he was so slow he only ever goty half way across.

Gibson could never help gravitating towards the ball. Never really had the footwork and pace to do the job out wide either.

As a neutral observer, surely Bath with all those options to call upon will not finish outside the top 6 this year? Also has Jonny Evans played much for you? He was developing into a very good No.9 before he left us and seems to be third/fourth choice at Bath now. I wouldn't mind him back at Dragons where compared to our others he would be second choice - if his form returns he would be pushing Sarel for first choice.

This is the current top 6.

Saracens
Exeter
Leicester
Quins
Northampton
Wasps

I wouldn't say there is any guarantee that Bath will be top 6. Bath are only 3 points off 6th but those 6 would feel they are realistic title contenders.

True - in the premiership its probably 8 teams that are realistic title contenders and it's the same each year. I was actually quite surprised when I seen the Wasps/Exeter score - given the form of Wasps in Europe I thought they would have done better but perhaps their domestic form has not been as good? Oh and Beshocked, Saracens are looking great this year - maybe they can reach the European final again.

Leo Ghirildini from Tigers to Toulouse on a 3 year deal is doing the rounds.

He was rumoured to be heading off to France for more money and gametime having sat behind Tom Youngs so it wouldn't surprise me.

Tigers will need a high quality replacement coming to Welford Road as Bateman isn't good enough to be 2nd choice IMO. Without a player good enough to rotate with Youngs we will end up burning him out - he's already had back issues.

If Thacker is staying as a hooker then I say we stick with what we have unless there's a veteran looking for a final season. Bateman is coming in nicely and is a big powerful lump and behind him are two young hookers that have represented England under 20s. Don't want to risk losing a young talent in order to pay someone with experience to sit on the bench.

Personally I think Thacker will be best of in the back row hence my desire for a new signing.

I've been impressed with Bateman around the park but he has wavered at the line-out a few times. I'd be nervous about having him one injury away from first choice if OTY went down.

Farnworth I rate highly and would happily see him promoted into Thackers place if he made the move to back row.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sgt work shy forwards don't end up as starters for Tigers irrespective of ability. Look how Brookes was shown the door. Certainly seen Kitchener toughen up and get more involved in the right since his move to Tigers. One of our best players last season.

Brookes was never work shy, he'd just last 20 mins before burning out. Tigers ruined him and it's set him back a few years.

Perhaps showy was a better choice, like Croft/Grey etc. I do like Kitchener but he could get involved in the dirty work a bit more.

Did you just watch the Munster game? Kitch was superb in a stereotypical Tigers line out operator role. Hard yards, 100% line out called and hitting rucks all over the park. Faultless 80 minutes.

Brookes was surpassed by Mulipola who was willing to put the effort into being a 60 minute prop powerhouse as opposed to a 20 minute one. Add in Balmain who'll tackle and carry all day in the loose and keep the scrum solid. Brookes chose to spend his rehab time eating we didn't ruin. Falcons was his club and Richards was willing to spend the time man managing him to some sort of professional shape. Now he's older and more mature he should be looking after his own nutrition.

Good seven minute for Thacker at hooker Carlos. Good carry dragging three Munster players and a pin point throw to the tail under pressure in his own 22.

Brookes wasn't runied by Tigers, His injuries ruined him at the time.

And found himself behind 3 top Tightheads.

Kitchener was making plenty of tackles today and involved in the tight stuff.

Croft well he is Croft a unique forward and Tigers have a game plan that tailors to it.

RE Thacker he is an excellent rugby player but his scrummaging is to much of a liability IMO.

He's not got much scrummaging power but he is very good at hooking the ball back quickly. I agree he's a great you no rugby talent but we need to sort out where he's playing long term and quickly.

Brookes has seemed OK for Saints so far. Some real flashes of dominance, but not consistent.
Agree he is not an 80 minute player at the moment. I think all we need to do is tell him we will have a few extra Dairy Milks in his locker post match if he goes the full 80 and he will get there. I heard from the team nutritionist that he is one of those guys who has to watch what he eats or he will bulk up like a Sumo wrestler.

One of the café's in Leicester changed the name of its breakfast challenge in his honour. That pretty much summed up his time at Leicester.

http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/Man-vs-Food/story-22051296-detail/story.html

I think some careful brainwashing to make him forget the existence of processed meats and chocolate would help last 80 minutes.

That's a management issue then. Brookes is obviously a talent and has bags of potential, Tigers really failed to tap into this.

Did you just watch the Munster game? Kitch was superb in a stereotypical Tigers line out operator role. Hard yards, 100% line out called and hitting rucks all over the park. Faultless 80 minutes.

I watched the 2nd half, he was decent. That's the issue with these line out stats, one of the Munster tries came from these takes which was far from clean.

Slapped out of his hands and forward by Munster though.

People will choose to think what they want, and whether you call it first impressions or prejudice people rarely change their opinion. I have never been able to find fault with Kitch's work rate - and yesterday he was immense in defence and at rucks and mauls.

I'd expect him to be in the squad for the six nations. Probably not in the match day squad but certainly around. Borthwick looks set to be the new forwards coach and he'll appreciate a line out technician of Kitch's size and ability. He does need to make the most of this time when Parling, Launchbury, Attwood and Lawes are in and out of their sides with injury. Slater also.

I like Kitchener a lot but if you could fault him it is his work rate, I think this is whats held him back from an international career. At 26 and to be uncapped, he obviously has some issue.

Cockers said last season he does everything that Parling does except speak. He's not a leader on the pitch, having met him whilst he was wandering around WR signing autographs a couple of years back I can testify to the man of few words approach. You see it on the TV as well, he's not the guy trying to motivate the team or laying down the law in the huddle. He calls the line out but otherwise just gets on with his job. Lancaster had his favoured second rows and but needed leaders in that second row hence retaining Parling and trying to promote Slater (before injuries struck twice).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's a management issue then. Brookes is obviously a talent and has bags of potential, Tigers really failed to tap into this.

How is it a management issue, if you are told to cut out certain foods and don't do it you'll be sent packing - which is what happened.

Perhaps he's now realised this at saints, although I still don't think he's fit enough.

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's a management issue then. Brookes is obviously a talent and has bags of potential, Tigers really failed to tap into this.

How is it a management issue, if you are told to cut out certain foods and don't do it you'll be sent packing - which is what happened.

Perhaps he's now realised this at saints, although I still don't think he's fit enough.

How is it not a management issue?

If one of your subordinates is not performing to the required standard, it's up to the management to sort that out. Brookes returned to Newcastle and was in the England squad within the year, he just needed pointing in the right direction.

Clubs have a vested interest in players, it's not as simple as do this or pack your bags. Some players require more management, just as in every profession.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's a management issue then. Brookes is obviously a talent and has bags of potential, Tigers really failed to tap into this.

How is it a management issue, if you are told to cut out certain foods and don't do it you'll be sent packing - which is what happened.

Perhaps he's now realised this at saints, although I still don't think he's fit enough.

How is it not a management issue?

If one of your subordinates is not performing to the required standard, it's up to the management to sort that out. Brookes returned to Newcastle and was in the England squad within the year, he just needed pointing in the right direction.

Clubs have a vested interest in players, it's not as simple as do this or pack your bags. Some players require more management, just as in every profession.

I understand that, but how do you know he wasn't managed at tigers? You don't, you are just guessing.

Perhaps when he was shipped out from tigers he actually thought, right if I'm going to be successful I need to knuckle down. People need set backs to move forward

Tigers are brilliant, it couldn't possibly be anything to do with them why he failed miserably there, yet has been a relative success everywhere else.

That's the spirit Ozzy, I'm pleased you're finally starting to see sense and you're coming over to the good side. Would you like me to get started on your new avatar or are you already working on it?

It pretty funny that it's you and pooly that seem to have a distaste for the tigers. You both will always give the benefit of doubt to anyone but the tigers. Not that either of you would ever admit that.

He was out most of the time with damaged ligaments in his foot and then couldn't be arsed to fight his way to a starting place again. He was lazy, he didn't take his nutrition seriously. There is no time for players like that.

Pooly's posts aren't much of a surprise, he's been at it for a while.

He gets a pass though as they're rather fun to read and seem to be a retaliation to Jimpy going through a phase of saying Newcastle were Poopie in almost all his posts

We are poopie Fuzzy.

As Ozzy said, Brookes has at least been a Saxon wherever he went. Tigers failed to develop him, he was a shadow of a player that left.

It's not Leicester I dislike Fuzzy, it's the often previous attitude of some of their fans. This is thankfully in the minority though.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Tigers are brilliant, it couldn't possibly be anything to do with them why he failed miserably there, yet has been a relative success everywhere else.

Cockers management style is buy into the philosophy or get out. The philosophy includes acting like a professional and training hard, following nutrition plans etc. Manu was given a plan to drop weight after his summer excesses and did it. Mulipola has done the same previously, Balmain spent all summer watching his weight in an effort to avoid the pre season "fat club". Brookes didn't want to make that effort when he was here (much to the delight of restaurant owners in the county). He wasn't a big fish at Tigers at Newcastle he was and so there was more management time spent on him which he needed.

It boils down to him not being ready for the big club mentality when he signed and then got injured with Tigers. When be signed people said he'd moved to early and they were right. Should have stayed longer at Falcons.

Tigers and Cockers have a specific way of managing players just the same as any club and manager. As it conspired the Leicester way was unlikely to work with a player such as Brookes who didn't seem to view being fortunate enough to play professional sport as enough of an incentive to drive himself forward.

People can argue that it's an example of poor man management by Cockers - I heard a fair few Tigers fans do so last year when we were struggling and people wanted to criticise the management at every turn! However I think it's understandable when coaches don't want to follow certain players with a cattle prod every second of the day to get them to work. Some coaches can excel at this admittedly - look at what Diamond has done for Cipriani. IMO it takes a specific type of coach, one that fits well with the player in question to do this successfully.

Equally you can argue that it's laziness on Brookes part. Whilst I wouldn't say it was solely down to the player I think it is fair to say that someone who's already been a pro sportsmen for a few years should know not to eat everything that passes under their nose.

Overall I think it's just a case of a player not fitting with a clubs style.

I'd also point out that Brookes fitness and ability to last more than 25/30 minutes (the main thing that his laziness and diet affected at Tigers) is still the primary thing holding him back since leaving. As such I wouldn't say it's an issue which seems solely limited to his time at Tigers. Although it seems to have been at it's worst whilst he was injured during his time in Leicester.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We are poopie Fuzzy.

As Ozzy said, Brookes has at least been a Saxon wherever he went. Tigers failed to develop him, he was a shadow of a player that left.

It's not Leicester I dislike Fuzzy, it's the often previous attitude of some of their fans. This is thankfully in the minority though.

On that latter point though, I agree with you - there are still some fans like it as I'm sure there are with every club. But you have to remember that sometimes fans have a bit of inside knowledge of what exactly went on and aren't just saying it to defend there club. Tigers have got a lot wrong over the past, hence how they have dropped off the pace in the last couple of years - only starting to improve once again.

On the second point, yes that's true but Brooke's also failed himself, failed to put the hard work in that is expected.

Fair points from all. As I said, I'm not anti-Tigers. It's just possible that a club can sometimes fail a player as well as the other way round.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Fair points from all. As I said, I'm not anti-Tigers. It's just possible that a club can sometimes fail a player as well as the other way round.

Of course that's true and probably what happened with Brooke's/tigers

Brookes and Leicester were a bad fit. Both parties to blame to some extent.

Back to Kitch, fifteen tackles last night. Only Tom Youngs made more.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWDqd4BWIAA-KFa.jpg:large

LondonTiger wrote:Brookes and Leicester were a bad fit. Both parties to blame to some extent.

But, I think that happens from time to time. Many times no real fault, just that not everyone is suited for every team and every situation. Besides Brookes was a young lad. Who knows what was going on? He did, or still does have a voracious appetite. At least he didn't eat his teammates.

nathan wrote:It pretty funny that it's you and pooly that seem to have a distaste for the tigers. You both will always give the benefit of doubt to anyone but the tigers. Not that either of you would ever admit that.

He was out most of the time with damaged ligaments in his foot and then couldn't be arsed to fight his way to a starting place again. He was lazy, he didn't take his nutrition seriously. There is no time for players like that.

Wow, that's some persecution complex you have there nathan. As it happens. I quite like the pussycats, having had a very enjoyable time at Welford Road on my last visit. What I don't like, is the fact that some of their supporters, both here and on their rugbynetwork site, are very sensitive and cannot accept any criticism whatsoever of their club.

I've experienced plenty of that myself Ozzy (though you should check the offy instead if you really want to see some nutters) so I get your point. Although I have to admit that Tigers have come in for more than their fair share of criticism for some years now, so it's understandable that us fans can mistake something for an unnecessary dig, as those come in almost daily. Tbh Tigers losing is second only to Saracens losing in terms of enjoyment for the neutrals.

Now that's a persecution complex for you

Oh no Fuzzy, Bath losing is far more enjoyable for me than Tigers.

Dan Bowden granted a release from the Blues to pursue overseas opportunities.

Japan?
Back to the AP?

Margin_Walker wrote:Dan Bowden granted a release from the Blues to pursue overseas opportunities.

Japan?
Back to the AP?

Back to LI after they were left in flux with Goode retiring?

I'm not sure where to put this so thought I'd stick it here.

I wonder how many of us would have thought that Rory Clegg would start a ECC game the season when he left Falcons at the end of last season?

Admittedly the drubbing that Oyannax received from Sarries wasn't the best match to start but I certainly wouldn't have believed anyone if they told me he'd be playing top flight European rugby this year!

king_carlos wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Dan Bowden granted a release from the Blues to pursue overseas opportunities.

Japan?
Back to the AP?

Back to LI after they were left in flux with Goode retiring?

Not sure he's quite the type of player people are shouting out for, but he'd be welcome all the same.

Edit - Although Coventry said the other week no one is coming in to replace Goode, so it's unlikely to be us.

Saracens - Barritt amongst others
Exeter - Hill and Whitten
Tigers - Smith, Bai + JDV soon to come
Quins - Sloan + Roberts on his way
Saints - Burrell and Stephenson on the rails
Wasps - Jacobs, Downey
Gloucester - 36 although it could be anyone week to week. Another talented but flaky playmaker isn't what they need though surely?
Sale - Tuitupou, Jennings
Bath - Eastmond and Devoto
Worcester - Mills (he's played every AP game for them so far), Grove, Fatiaki and returning Andy Symons
Newcastle - Socino, Harris and Powell
LI - Griffin, Johnny Williams, Mulchrone

Those are the AP teams options at 12. Compared to other positions no teams are really short on quality you'd have to argue.

Wasps are shortest on cover given they are very reliant on Jacobs at current. Is Bowden the sort of player that Dai Young would look for though. Bowden would probably like how Wasps play but I can't see it personally.

LI are the only side I see there who would really want a 10. Gloucester have Billy Burns if they want to move away from Hook or 36. Worcester seem happy with Heathcote and I can't see Bowden being signed by Deans when the funds could go elsewhere.

Rumours now starting to mount on the Tigers offy that Bowden is returning to Welford Road.

With Mauger and Hansen offering a kiwi link and O'Connor having been team mates with him last season their could be some truth to it.

Unless we are looking to move Bai into a coaching role sooner than expected it would surprise me though. JDV is just coming in as an option at 12 plus Smith is playing very well there. We also have Roberts who is a pocket rocket and Bryant coming through who is a big talent.

I don't really see where Bowden fits in myself.

It's the sort of signing where the short term squad improvement wouldn't be worth the investment IMO.

Tigers would be the front runners in the AP for me.

Could just as likely be Japan or France though.

His missus plays football for Lincoln Ladies (Notts County), so I suspect he is coming back to the Premiership.