World Tour Finals (WTF!) 2015 - Day 4 (was Day2 and Day3!)

by **laverfan** Mon 16 Nov 2015, 3:38 am

First topic message reminder :

The ATP website seems to have evolved and become AI-enabled and may not show the correct day when you click on the link, so here are a variety of links

PDF version - PDF version
Day 4 link - Day 4 link (may work)
Live Scores on the ATP Web Site - ATP Live Scores
Barclays Live Scores - Barclays Live Scores

MotD - Murray v Nadal.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 19 Nov 2015, 8:56 am

I sense a little Shocked

panic setting in here.. how DARE Rafa find form again .. and rattle a few cages

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 8:58 am

Wouldn't say apathetic.

It's amusing the forum was universal in actually saying Nadal this year was "sub par" and lost matches were not attributed to "superior play" of his opponents. You're right. Only on this forum Laugh

Seriously. It's not superior play. Far from it. Take that as complementary given the high standards of play that people associate with Nadal.

Right now I see this as perfect for Nadal. If he wins this, 2016 surely opens up for him? If his confidence is not sky high after winning an event that eludes him, then there must be something wrong! Even if he doesn't win it, picking up victories against Murray and Wawrinka (regardless of form) is still a win and that should ignite something.

All we need is the jester to tell us that the WTF is now a relevant tournament and not just an exhibition Wink

by Haddie-nuff Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:01 am

HM Murdock wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Nadal might go all the way here.

It will hinge on the probable SF against Novak.

Before the tournament, I'd have made Novak the strong favourite in that match up but it feels much closer now.

Rafa is playing well and I thought Novak showed a worrying lack of big match temperament against Federer. I would no longer be surprised if Nadal won.

And, if he's in the final against Federer, Stan or Andy, I think he wins. He's playing better than Stan and Andy, and he's still a stylistic nightmare for Federer.
bu
Absolutely BUT Im sick of hearing ever since his win against Rosol, who choked, Gasquet choked, Wawrinka sub par and Andy.
No it wasn't luck.. Rafa has upped his game and his new found determination shows.. whether he has upped it enough to take on the other two remains to be seen.. but give the man some credit for beating the others with superior play
You've either clicked reply on the wrong comment or you've completely misunderstood what I wrote.

No I didn't misunderstand Im actually agreeing with you I said absolutely but failed to add BUT which is addressed to those who do not.. confused ..sorry

by HM Murdock Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:08 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:Seriously. It's not superior play. Far from it. Take that as complementary given the high standards of play that people associate with Nadal.

I'd actually disagree here.

I think he's looking good in London. Maybe not the dizzy heights of '08, '10 and '13 but still very good.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:15 am

How dare you make such a suggestion... Wink

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:19 am

HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Seriously. It's not superior play. Far from it. Take that as complementary given the high standards of play that people associate with Nadal.
I'd actually disagree here.

I think he's looking good in London. Maybe not the dizzy heights of '08, '10 and '13 but still very good.

Would you say superior? You disagree, but throw in good?

by Calder106 Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:27 am

Don't think anyone who watched the Wawrinka and Murray matches could honestly say they were playing anywhere near their best. However that should not detract from the fact that Nadal played well in the two matches. In both he lost his serve in the first game of the match but broke back immediately. Once he got ahead he played good tennis making few UE's and coming up with some excellent shots when required (e.g. saving the break point at 30-40 in the second game of the second set). It was what he used to do so often, get ahead and then not allow the opponent any encouragement to get back in.

As I have said before he is looking good for next year at least. His form since the USO has definitely been good. When you compare where he is at present to Murray last year (in comeback terms) at the same tournament he is well ahead.

by It Must Be Love Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:31 am

Let's not over analyse too much.
Nadal is playing good tennis, better than so far this year, on courts he normally considers his weakest (although I actually think since 2013 outdoor hard courts suit him slightly better than clay). However to beat Djokovic he has to reach the levels he did in the prime of his career, and frankly I don't see that happening, so he's not beating Djokovic. Against anyone else and he's right there.

It's like the cricket world cup earlier this year.
Australia is Djokovic. New Zealand is Federer; very attacking team who beat Australia in the group stages but couldn't in the final. Nadal is India. Everyone though India would be crap in fast bouncing Aussie conditions but they actually played very well until the semis where they lost to Australia.

by It Must Be Love Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:35 am

So either Murray/Stan are South Africa (who lost to India in group stages); but then they gave New Zealand a really tough game in the semis; and I don't know if either can really stretch Federer. So maybe the analogy will only hold for Fedalovic.

by HM Murdock Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:47 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Seriously. It's not superior play. Far from it. Take that as complementary given the high standards of play that people associate with Nadal.
I'd actually disagree here.

I think he's looking good in London. Maybe not the dizzy heights of '08, '10 and '13 but still very good.

Would you say superior? You disagree, but throw in good?

Superior just means 'better than'.

He's been better than his opponents on the day and has been better than his own previous form.

I don't think his level has remained unchanged and a succession of opponents have just had bad days. Nor do I think he has been grinding out wins in spite of bad form. He pretty comprehensively swatted aside Murray and Wawrinka with good play.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:49 am

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:04 am

HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Seriously. It's not superior play. Far from it. Take that as complementary given the high standards of play that people associate with Nadal.
I'd actually disagree here.

I think he's looking good in London. Maybe not the dizzy heights of '08, '10 and '13 but still very good.

Would you say superior? You disagree, but throw in good?
Superior just means 'better than'.

He's been better than his opponents on the day and has been better than his own previous form.

I don't think his level has remained unchanged and a succession of opponents have just had bad days. Nor do I think he has been grinding out wins in spite of bad form. He pretty comprehensively swatted aside Murray and Wawrinka with good play.

I disagree that it just means. I'd say it means 'high' quality.

His play has been good. I wouldn't qualify it as 'superior'

Given Murray said months in advance the DC is his top priority and even hinted at pulling out of the WTF. Doesn't strike me as guy willing to give his all for this event.

I very much agree with IMBL in light of the doom mongering and scaremongering by other fans Wink

by HM Murdock Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:07 am

It Must Be Love wrote:However to beat Djokovic he has to reach the levels he did in the prime of his career, and frankly I don't see that happening, so he's not beating Djokovic. Against anyone else and he's right there.

If Djokovic brings his normal level from this year, then yes, I agree it will be tough for Rafa.

I thought that Djokovic wilted against Federer though. Roger had him under pressure and Novak cracked.

If Rafa can hold serve and keep pressure on Novak for 8-10 games, then I think things could happen.

Of course, Rafa himself will have to hold his own nerve against the pressure Novak will be putting on him!

I see this one as a mental battle, which is often what produces the best matches between this pair.

by HM Murdock Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:10 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:I disagree that it just means. I'd say it means 'high' quality.

His play has been good. I wouldn't qualify it as 'superior'

I think that's how you describe hotel rooms rather than tennis players! Wink

But it seems like it's just semantics between us rather than a drastic difference of opinion. thumbsup

by It Must Be Love Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:12 am

HM & LK; I think there's a misunderstanding here; 'superior' as I see it is a relative adjective; and he certainly has been superior to how he's played so far this year and his opponents so far.
I think he's playing high quality tennis with his forehand in particular doing well. It's not come as a sudden shock, I think he's been improving all autumn.
However where I would agree with LK more than HM; is that I don't think he's back to his 'prime' best level, and that's what he'd need to reach to touch the world number 1 right now. Djokovic won't play another set like the 2nd set vs Roger; that was a one-off blip.

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:24 am

HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:I disagree that it just means. I'd say it means 'high' quality.

His play has been good. I wouldn't qualify it as 'superior'
I think that's how you describe hotel rooms rather than tennis players!

But it seems like it's just semantics between us rather than a drastic difference of opinion.

I'd use it to describe anything in relation quality. Smile

resembles the courtroom discussion in Philadelphia the difference between excellent/satisfactory caviar/baloney sandwich. That's what we are discussing.

It's widely observed that some of the performances at the WTF (not just this year alone) have been below par and the attitude displayed by players makes it difficult to apportion merit to their performances. It's hard to take Murray's performances with any serious note given his comments prior to the event.

I fall into the same trap as others in terms of how the measure the quality of player at a particular time because of previous achievements. Annoying I admit.

by Henman Bill Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:18 pm

Not sure about this talk about Murray wanting to avoid Novak.

I think he'd rather play Novak in the semi, that way he can get some rest for the Davis Cup without having to tank.

The benefit for Andy in losing to Rafa is not that he'll avoid Novak in the semi, it's that he has the opportunity to exit at the group stage if he wants to tank.

The difficulty with being a Brit is that there's slightly more pressure on you to be ethically perfect due to our media.

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:37 pm

I think he would rather play Federer in the semi HB.

If one is to tank, I'd rather tank against someone who won't keep on court any longer than need be Wink

by Haddie-nuff Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:39 pm

Then why did he not withdraw from the tournament why bother to tank ?
Move over and let someone else play..at least he would have gained the respect for putting his country first.. So it seems we are now expected to consider tanking ethically perfect.. Shocked

This applies to all players I take it ??

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:46 pm

With you on that Haddie, though I remember Raonic pulling out after 2 defeats and poor Ferrer was merely a filler which was disgraceful by Raonic.

I'd rather he pulled out to begin with. Let someone else play who wanted to. I did read that participation was mandatory which is daft! I know it's a sponsors wet dream to have all the top players on the billing, but for me quality over substance.

It's why I think the format needs to be re-visited.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:56 pm

Absolutely it actually makes a mockery of the whole tournament.
It is meant to be the epitome of a tennis players career surely.
DC has always, on this forum at least, been considered a non event
True in GB case it is something he would wish to be a part of .
So make that your priority Andy Im sure Gasquet would have welcomed the honour of playing .. it would have given his county a bit of a boost at any rate given the tragic circumstances

by Calder106 Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:03 pm

Murray wasn't allowed to withdraw from the tournament. When he mooted the possibility Chris Kermode came out publicly and said that he was contracted to play if fully fit.

From what I have read by not playing he would definitely have lost his end of season bonus for ranking position (probably not a great discomfort considering his earnings but still a lot of cash). There could possibly have been other sanctions such as suspension from future tournaments.

So having raised the point calling in with a sickie would have been strongly questioned.

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:09 pm

Indeed. Andy was locked in and as you say pulling a sickie raises eyebrows especially when in a week's time he'll be flying around the court...

Sad really...

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

I read that all the players had to have a medical to ensure that they were fit - because sponsors were putting pressure on them to play even if they're were injured. So the medical was to protect the players from the corporate pressures.

by bogbrush Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:19 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:However to beat Djokovic he has to reach the levels he did in the prime of his career, and frankly I don't see that happening, so he's not beating Djokovic. Against anyone else and he's right there.
If Djokovic brings his normal level from this year, then yes, I agree it will be tough for Rafa.

I thought that Djokovic wilted against Federer though. Roger had him under pressure and Novak cracked.

If Rafa can hold serve and keep pressure on Novak for 8-10 games, then I think things could happen.

Of course, Rafa himself will have to hold his own nerve against the pressure Novak will be putting on him!

I see this one as a mental battle, which is often what produces the best matches between this pair.

I wouldn't be too concerned if I were a Djokovic fan; it's well established that this veteran version of Federer is actually a bit of a pain for Novak and is always likely to throw him off. I'm sure he'll be back to looking against Berdych as he did against Nishikori.

by Jahu Thu 19 Nov 2015, 3:18 pm

Come on Ninja, slice him chop-chop.

Wtf Fed, let him win, send Djoko home!!!

by Henman Bill Thu 19 Nov 2015, 8:45 pm

I'm only suggesting that tanking is a possibility for Andy. he may not be doing it at all.

by temporary21 Thu 19 Nov 2015, 8:48 pm

For Andy, the Dc is a one time go to win it, and it would mean soo soo much for british tennis. I can understand being at half mast this time, if it was Rafa say, then who would care for the dc

by summerblues Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:11 am

HM Murdock wrote:Novak showed a worrying lack of big match temperament against Federer.

Maybe because it was not a big match?

by Haddie-nuff Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:39 am

summerblues wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:Novak showed a worrying lack of big match temperament against Federer.
Maybe because it was not a big match?

Since when has that made a difference to Novak

by ShankyCricket Fri 20 Nov 2015, 8:18 am

Murray is 2-10 against the Big 3 in his BEST season. Big 4 my foot.

by Guest Fri 20 Nov 2015, 8:30 am

And when was his best season?

by Henman Bill Mon 23 Nov 2015, 6:51 pm

Henman Bill wrote:So Djokovic/Federer.

There is a tendency for Federer to win their minor matches and I would say, especially with a straight sets first match in the bag, that this is a fairly minor match for them both.

So if the theory is true that Federer wins the minor matches but Djokovic is mentally tougher in the big ones then the theory possibly predicts a Federer win today followed by potentially a Djokovic win in the final.

Federer does tend to win the Dubais and Cincinattis but lose the Wimbledons and US Opens, court speed could be a factor though. If we were to get two matches here at the same surface, that would be a nice test of the theory that Federer is the more talented and better shot maker, but weaker mentally when it comes to the crunch.

Another thing to note is the the players are dead level on head to head, so a chance for Djokovic to edge ahead for the first time ever.

Time to revisit this. The theory correctly predicted a Federer group stage win followed by a final win for Djokovic. It's always better for a theory to be able to make future predictions. When you look at data respectively it's easy to see trends emerge which are just random coincidences or just pushed into a pattern to suit someone's dogma. This theory of Federer's better shot making but weaker mental strength has just gone up a notch or two in quality now that I was able to make a successful future prediction using it.

And the alternate theory that Federer only wins minor matches and loses big wins because minor tournies happen to be held on faster surfaces has taken a hit.

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