The Ireland Squad Announcement Thread

by **Notch** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the discussion on the 'Ireland 2016 Squad' thread which can be found here.

Ireland squad has been announced. It contains four uncapped players- Stuart McCloskey, Ultan Dillane, Josh van der Flier and CJ Stander. However there is no room for Garry Ringrose. Mike Ross, Cian Healy and Chris Henry have all been omitted due to injury but may feature later as they return to fitness in their provincial set-ups.

Ireland Squad RBS 6 Nations 2016 Rounds 1 & 2

Forwards (19)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
CJ Stander (Munster)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
Nathan White (Connacht)

Backs (16)

Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
Stuart McCloskey (McCloskey/Ulster)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster)

*Denotes uncapped player

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:18 pm

I do think that McCloskey will be easier to mark as time goes on (this always happens with such players) but that is exactly why it would be wise to draft him into the team sooner rather than later and to utilise his strengths. After that the onus is on him to adapt and improve the other aspects of his game. I think he definitely has the talent to do it.

Out of interest Notch - where would you put Olding in the Ulster/Ireland team? Personally (and I don't think many will agree with me here) I don't think he is as effective at 15. He isn't great under the high ball and also for the sake of his knees I would prefer he isn't constantly jumping and landing with a would-be tackler on his tail. He does get more space, but to be honest does he look like a player who needs much of it? At 12 he gets the ball more, he clearly has the pace and power (did you see his fend at the beginning of the game?) and he will take a lot of the responsibility from the 10. I do think that he is one player Schmidt will draft in very quickly.

There is also Luke Marshall to remember who had a fantastic game at 12 for Ulster before the 6 nations. He has a very good understanding with Jackson and although he doesn't have the natural ability of Olding, he has proven this season he is still a classy footballer and not just the bosh merchant that Anscombe apparently wished to mould.

Marshall, McCloskey and Olding. Ulster and Ireland are lucky, eh? Or maybe we should just stick with an out-of-position Henshaw for a few more seasons? Wink

by **profitius** Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:21 pm

McCloskey hasn't played for a few weeks so might be rusty and probably trying too hard to impress after being left out of the Ireland squad. He has been very consistent this season from what I've seen.

by **Notch** Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:16 pm

12 Rory. Doesn't have the raw power of McCloskey or even Henshaw but for me is more talented than both.

Feel bad for McCloskey and Marshall because most times we would be describing them as the best 12 of their generation- Henshaw will be fine, he'll move out one sooner or later. Could even put Henshaw in to 15.

Agree fully on your points re. jumping for the high ball- he's the kind of player who creates space for himself.

by Marshes Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:28 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Gilroy played at level last night McFadden and D. Kearney can only dream off.

Safety first rules

Matt Healy with another on Thursday night too, they both deserve their chance now

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:49 pm

One thing I will say is that I don't see how anyone wouldn't be excited to see what Schmidt will do with the amount of talent and depth soon available to this Ireland team. We need to hang onto him as our coach. Positions that had me worried very recently such as the second row now look very promising with the likes of Ultan Dillane, Ross Molony and the Irish U20s player James Ryan catching the eye so far. Iain Henderson aside the cupboard looked a little bare for young talented locks. It may take a few years for these players but the future is looking green. I guess the main concerns are at hooker and tighthead?

by nathan Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:03 pm

Nice tribute to poc

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:09 pm

I love everything about the man! What a legend and he will be sorely missed.

by **Notch** Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:25 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One thing I will say is that I don't see how anyone wouldn't be excited to see what Schmidt will do with the amount of talent and depth soon available to this Ireland team. We need to hang onto him as our coach. Positions that had me worried very recently such as the second row now look very promising with the likes of Ultan Dillane, Ross Molony and the Irish U20s player James Ryan catching the eye so far. Iain Henderson aside the cupboard looked a little bare for young talented locks. It may take a few years for these players but the future is looking green. I guess the main concerns are at hooker and tighthead?

Losing Moore to Wasps was a travesty. He's not going to be awesome compared to some of the world class tight heads other nations have, but he'll be good enough to hold the scrum up and play test rugby. I have high hopes for Furlong though. White is obviously a short term stop gap, and not one I'm crazy about.

by Peter Stringer Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:55 pm

Notch wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:One thing I will say is that I don't see how anyone wouldn't be excited to see what Schmidt will do with the amount of talent and depth soon available to this Ireland team. We need to hang onto him as our coach. Positions that had me worried very recently such as the second row now look very promising with the likes of Ultan Dillane, Ross Molony and the Irish U20s player James Ryan catching the eye so far. Iain Henderson aside the cupboard looked a little bare for young talented locks. It may take a few years for these players but the future is looking green. I guess the main concerns are at hooker and tighthead?

Losing Moore to Wasps was a travesty. He's not going to be awesome compared to some of the world class tight heads other nations have, but he'll be good enough to hold the scrum up and play test rugby. I have high hopes for Furlong though. White is obviously a short term stop gap, and not one I'm crazy about.

Interestingly players moving abroad wasn't an issue with Declan Kidney.

by **Notch** Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:11 pm

Penalties from the restart are the absolute worst! Uhhh, this game is almost as frustrating as the Ulster game last night....

by frustrated fan Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:41 pm

We cant win the championship. Now Joe be brave do what you said you would do, pick on form not name and history. Just to make things clear, am frustrated ulster supporter.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:43 pm

As I feared may be the case, it does seem that some here were overcomplicating matters and in their attempts to appear intellectually on the same page as Schmidt and have an understanding of his tactical decisions, they must concede that he got this wrong. That was dreadful. Utterly dreadful. The experienced players did not perform nor did they succeed in doing what we thought they were selected to do. We had talked earlier about the poor decision making in the Ulster game last night; Jackson and McCloskey produced nothing close to the rubbish that we have just witnessed. They didn't even have poor games! They were only poor by their own extremely high standards.

The selection was poor. Those chosen to start over many more deserving players were extremely poor in this game. The fears people had about their selection were entirely justified in that game and it is clear some of them are either well past their prime or simply not good enough at this level. Simon Zebo was rightly criticised for his poor kicking game against Wales but at least he actually caused the defence a heck of a lot of problems. Today we witnessed poor kicking, poor decision making and little threat whatsoever. Sometimes a little risk is needed in selecting the untried and untested as mistakes will still happen regardless. At least some of these options can make up for it with some much needed attacking flair.

The tactics and decisions made on the pitch were totally bizarre. I assumed that with such a conservative team selected to be strong under the high ball that we may actually employ the kick-chase that we have become known for. Well I can count on one hand how many times we actually attempted it. Rob Kearney looked like a shadow of the player he once was under those high balls, something that those watching Leinster this season will already be aware of.

Trust me, I am bitterly disappointed not to have my fellow fans on here telling me I was totally wrong about everything I feared the other night. I think those fears were well and truly justified.

by geoff999rugby Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:21 pm

It gives me no pleasure being proved right.

Wrong tactics wrong selection

by **profitius** Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:00 pm

It was the most bizarre team selection I have ever witnessed. Out of form players, reserve players, players played out of position. Now, thats ok if you have an injury crisis but Ireland have a load of players to choose from that are fit. McCloskey, Marshall, Olding, Mat Healy, Scholes, Jackson, Ringrose (who can also play wing), O'Halloran etc.

by asoreleftshoulder Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:12 pm

profitius wrote:It was the most bizarre team selection I have ever witnessed. Out of form players, reserve players, players played out of position. Now, thats ok if you have an injury crisis but Ireland have a load of players to choose from that are fit. McCloskey, Marshall, Olding, Mat Healy, Scholes, Jackson, Ringrose (who can also play wing), O'Halloran etc.

by **profitius** Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:20 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
profitius wrote:It was the most bizarre team selection I have ever witnessed. Out of form players, reserve players, players played out of position. Now, thats ok if you have an injury crisis but Ireland have a load of players to choose from that are fit. McCloskey, Marshall, Olding, Mat Healy, Scholes, Jackson, Ringrose (who can also play wing), O'Halloran etc.

It would be funny if it wasn't true.

by SecretFly Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:48 pm

Possibly the worst performance from an Irish team since Joe Schmidt turned up. Lifeless, trudgy, dead stuff with no heart or feel, or even the tiniest taste of genuine self belief. Even the supposed good start looked to me rushed, ultra tense and overly keyed up. The energy sapped away quickly on a nervous wave of hope that the impossible might happen - that cliched good head start and the usual defensive heroics in a second half to hold off for a win. Are we suddenly so bad a team that out of all the 6N teams we seem to need the most negative, amateurish survivalist gameplan to cling to slim slim wins?
The same old trick gets tried over and over again... defend like mad a slim lead for most of an 80 minutes. - Players that don't have the physique to play such a high impact version of contact obsessed, non-offload rugby are being asked to play exactly such a one dimensional, highly attritional game week after week after week after week.

We don't even wait for the opposition to beat us to death, we willingly do it to ourselves. O'Brien has become nothing more than a crash test dummy....raging into contact whenever he gets the chance and 'playing' in the injury tunnel now more than he's on the field. Sexton is having much more than a good dose of really bad luck. Medical people really need to be asking him serious questions now about the continued viability of his career (especially at International rugby)
Rob Kearney was an absolute disaster - causing his team more problems than the French with his erratic madness and blind lunges, jumps and general panicky mayhem. His career as an International needs to be questioned now. He's giving nothing to the position - a shadow of the player he was some years ago.

Murray twirls his balls, even when the game slips away slowly but surely...Murray still twirls his no-rush ball as he chugs along in canter pace no matter how urgent the game becomes. Give your players at least a chance and keep the pace up in attack.... stop lulling at the back of the scrum. These are serious games. There was no sense of any real driver on the team pushing his comrades on and goading them to push the French off them. It all looked tired and resigned stuff, the body language said it all. No rage, no passion, no defiance. One point and no fire.

Oh sorry, I'm not taking into account the 6 day turnaround and the heavy game against Wales last week.... the Welsh players forgot that bit too. Whistle

They shouldn't have tried so hard so and yawned out their excuses that rugby is a tough game to keep going at week after week!
It is a tough game - and it seems more and more that Irish players, the Irish system, Irish conditioning for International level rugby just doesn't come close to the toughness needed.

Joe Schmidt has a lot of work on, I don't know where the solution is coming from.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:00 am

profitius wrote:It was the most bizarre team selection I have ever witnessed. Out of form players, reserve players, players played out of position. Now, thats ok if you have an injury crisis but Ireland have a load of players to choose from that are fit. McCloskey, Marshall, Olding, Mat Healy, Scholes, Jackson, Ringrose (who can also play wing), O'Halloran etc.

I would not say that it was the most bizarre team selection I have seen and it (on paper and form from 3 years ago) was a solid team.

Schmidt has a chance, now that the 6N title is done and dusted for Ireland, to select on form and players in their best positions but will he do it? I suspect not as that would be showing a weakness of character.

No excuses for that loss (don't give me weather or injuries), that was simply a poorly selected team with an eye on conservatism that got done. Ireland needed to show France a little less respect, make the correct calls and simply go for it.

by nathan Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:15 am

What's the average age of the team? Am I correct in thinking there are a fair few mid 30's in the team?

Perhaps he should be starting to blood new players at the start of a World Cup cycle

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:05 pm

At the start of Schmidt's reign I could understand the extra support for Leinster players as he knew them all very well. He has now been Ireland coach for a good while so that affinity for Leinster players should not be as strong. I cant understand just why players from other provinces who are in much better form are being overlooked for out of form Leinster players.

Now before anyone accuses me of hatred for Leinster (asoreleftshoulder), I would be saying the same thing if it were any of the other provinces as well.

I do believe that had their been a few small tweaks in the squad then Ireland wouls have beaten both Wales and France.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:07 pm

nathan wrote:What's the average age of the team? Am I correct in thinking there are a fair few mid 30's in the team?

Perhaps he should be starting to blood new players at the start of a World Cup cycle

It's quite old, but the average age of the squad is fairly good. Issues are lack of young, currently fit hookers and tight heads who are able to step in. Older guys at lock because Henderson is out- back line has a fairly good age profile with a lot of younger players pushing. The issue really is that we have had to include stopgap older players in the tight five like Mike McCarthy and Nathan White who are really passengers. Furlong is a good prospect but he was exposed technically by an excellent and fresh Ben Arous. Toner and Ryan are solid at maul and lineout but not apparent around the pitch at all.

You'd imagine we'll see younger players against Italy or Scotland, I'd definitely make changes for England but I would still go over there with an experienced team. If the scrum is dominated in Twickenham and we are on the back foot in terms of penalties conceded there, its going to be a long, long day regardless of our back line and I don't know whether its good to start handing out debuts in that kind of game. I can see a heavy beating if the scrum is dominated. Despite the circumstances with the title gone, it just seems like the right game to blood players could be the week after.

For all the talk about the back line selection we desperately need to get 36-year old Mike Ross fit and in this team for that away game. For me the most interesting selection debate to be had is at tight head, but its not a glamorous, sexy debate like talking about 10 or the centres and its not a debate that has any easy-looking solutions. I would be inclined to go with Ross at Twickenham and then Furlong in one of the the last two games to get a bit of depth in the position. I would also like to try out a number of different combinations at centre and fullback across the three games. I'm going to say I believe we should keep Payne at 13 for most of the rest of the tournaments and keep the wingers the same- that continuity will help us bring players like McCloskey and Jackson in the midfield through, plus look at Olding off the bench and Henshaw and Zebo at fullback.

Here's my teams for the next three games, pending injury updates I'm excluding Sean O'Brien and Dave Kearney. Mike McCarthy may be added to that list.

ENGLAND AWAY

1. Jack McGrath 2. Rory Best (c) 3. Mike Ross 4. Devin Toner 5. Donnacha Ryan 6. CJ Stander 7. Tommy O'Donnell 8. Jamie Heaslip 9. Conor Murray 10. Jonny Sexton 11. Keith Earls 12. Robbie Henshaw 13. Jared Payne 14. Andrew Trimble 15. Simon Zebo

16. Richardt Strauss 17. James Cronin 18. Nathan White 19. Mike McCarthy/Ultan Dillane 20. Rhys Ruddock 21. Kieran Marmion 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Rob Kearney

ITALY AT HOME

1. Jack McGrath 2. Rory Best (c) 3. Tadhg Furlong 4. Devin Toner 5. Donnacha Ryan 6. CJ Stander 7. Tommy O'Donnell 8. Jamie Heaslip 9. Conor Murray 10. Paddy Jackson 11. Keith Earls 12. Stuart McCloskey 13. Jared Payne 14. Andrew Trimble 15. Robbie Henshaw

16. Sean Cronin 17. James Cronin 18. Mike Ross 19. Mike McCarthy/Ultan Dillane 20. Rhys Ruddock 21. Kieran Marmion 22. Jonny Sexton 23. Simon Zebo

SCOTLAND AT HOME

1. James Cronin 2. Rory Best (c) 3. Mike Ross 4. Devin Toner 5. Donnacha Ryan 6. Rhys Ruddock 7. Tommy O'Donnell 8. CJ Stander 9. Conor Murray 10. Jonny Sexton 11. Keith Earls 12. Stuart McCloskey 13. Jared Payne 14. Andrew Trimble 15. Robbie Henshaw

16. Sean Cronin 17. Jack McGrath 18. Tadhg Furlong 19. Mike McCarthy/Ultan Dillane 20. Jamie Heaslip 21. Kieran Marmion 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Stuart Olding

We may go into conservative mode in that the IRFU dictates that our continued financial health rests upon us winning convincingly in the last two games. But it's an opportunity to look at some players. We should take that chance.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:15 pm

To be honest I'm not interested in going into full experimental mode for the sake of it. We should be most concerned about winning the rest of our games above all else and that is entirely possible. I would like Schmidt to select the team that will win the rest of the games. That is going to require some serious changes though.

Is there a two week break before the next match?

by asoreleftshoulder Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:18 pm

eirebilly wrote:At the start of Schmidt's reign I could understand the extra support for Leinster players as he knew them all very well. He has now been Ireland coach for a good while so that affinity for Leinster players should not be as strong. I cant understand just why players from other provinces who are in much better form are being overlooked for out of form Leinster players.

Now before anyone accuses me of hatred for Leinster (asoreleftshoulder), I would be saying the same thing if it were any of the other provinces as well.

I do believe that had their been a few small tweaks in the squad then Ireland wouls have beaten both Wales and France.

Apart from Madigan on the bench ahead of Jackson this isn't happening.Schmidt doesn't rate Gilroy,that's obvious so form doesn't come into it if he doesn't think he's good enough.If he rated him at all then he'd be in the squad as we are down so many wingers now there are very few fit one left.

Henshaw and Payne are keeping Marshall and McCloskey out of the team,now you can shuffle the team around to remove as many Leinster players as you can but Schmidt doesn't want to change one of the units that is actually functioning well,you might not agree with his reasoning but to claim his refusal to make massive changes to the team is Leinster bias just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.It's far more likely that he wants to keep the units he has established since there are so many other areas with new combinations that the training time could be better spent on.

The problem most people seem to have is they don't value training time as much as Schmidt obviously does,they just think that put x player in here and voila I've solved the problem,Schmidt rates time spent in preparation very highly so he's not prepared to just throw in multiple new players and switch everyone like a bad impression of Marc Lievremont.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:21 pm

Also, I have my concerns that Jack McGrath is the bigger problem in the scrum rather than the tighthead. He is very good in the loose and before this season he was extremely stable at the scrum but I have noticed for Leinster and Ireland this season he has been struggling to stay straight and steady. Perhaps he could do with a break?

I would like to see James Cronin starting at some stage in the Six Nations.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:34 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

The problem most people seem to have is they don't value training time as much as Schmidt obviously does,they just think that put x player in here and voila I've solved the problem,Schmidt rates time spent in preparation very highly so he's not prepared to just throw in multiple new players and switch everyone like a bad impression of Marc Lievremont.

All very well and good.... and a reasonable approach from any International coach. But on evidence of the past year of so... the training isn't creating anything special from anyone or from any particular unit.

So the theory, if Schmidt is sticking to it, isn't producing a settled basis to grow branches off. It's failing. Yesterday's game is not a once off bad game - nope, it's back to being our usual performance of pretensions of attack ridiculed by a massive lack of unity of purpose and skill levels required to attack. Ireland have been a dull knife now for quite some time. So relying on furious defending and calling it settled units and non-risk is an argument that is no longer selling - much as Kidney's reasons for his stubbornness no longer worked as Ireland slid down and down the Ranking charts.

Rob Kearney is no longer an International standard 15. He may have one or two games that shine but that isn't nearly enough of a return to champion his continued involvement. Murray is absolutely not sharp enough at 9 for an attacking game that necessarily must get faster and faster to make the breaks required. People can talk all they want about the centres and the flyhalf - scrum half and 15 are serious positions now in relation to stalling anything creative from Ireland.

by LeinsterFan4life Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:34 pm

We see this a lot with coaches who are invloved in a country for a long time, they refuse to drop players that they once relied on. The likes of Rob Kearney and Mcfadden would have been mains stays in Leinster's European run under Schmidt and were top players.

It is time for a reshuffle and I'm sure we will see that in the coming weeks.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:39 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:At the start of Schmidt's reign I could understand the extra support for Leinster players as he knew them all very well. He has now been Ireland coach for a good while so that affinity for Leinster players should not be as strong. I cant understand just why players from other provinces who are in much better form are being overlooked for out of form Leinster players.

Now before anyone accuses me of hatred for Leinster (asoreleftshoulder), I would be saying the same thing if it were any of the other provinces as well.

I do believe that had their been a few small tweaks in the squad then Ireland wouls have beaten both Wales and France.

Apart from Madigan on the bench ahead of Jackson this isn't happening.Schmidt doesn't rate Gilroy,that's obvious so form doesn't come into it if he doesn't think he's good enough.If he rated him at all then he'd be in the squad as we are down so many wingers now there are very few fit one left.

Henshaw and Payne are keeping Marshall and McCloskey out of the team,now you can shuffle the team around to remove as many Leinster players as you can but Schmidt doesn't want to change one of the units that is actually functioning well,you might not agree with his reasoning but to claim his refusal to make massive changes to the team is Leinster bias just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.It's far more likely that he wants to keep the units he has established since there are so many other areas with new combinations that the training time could be better spent on.

The problem most people seem to have is they don't value training time as much as Schmidt obviously does,they just think that put x player in here and voila I've solved the problem,Schmidt rates time spent in preparation very highly so he's not prepared to just throw in multiple new players and switch everyone like a bad impression of Marc Lievremont.

For a start, no way was Rob Kearney to be included in that team. He is woefully out of form and looked a shadow of himself there. Payne or Henshaw to 15 ahead of him is not a big change. McFadden is not the player he once was and should not have been parachuted into the team. TOH or Gilroy are better players to have on the wings and I would seriously question Schmidt if he does not rate them.

Having a midfield of McCloskey with Payne or Henshaw (the other one dropping to 15 would add more balance. I would not have Zebo at 15 either, he may offer a lot in attack but he also is not great in his positioning at fullback. For me he is on the bench to cover wing.

These are not wholesale changes but they are changes that would give Ireland more balance in attack and not remove anything in defence.

Its not about getting rid of Leinster players, its about getting form players in ahead of out of form players. Unfortunately for your good self, the out of form players are from Leinster.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:41 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We see this a lot with coaches who are invloved in a country for a long time, they refuse to drop players that they once relied on. The likes of Rob Kearney and Mcfadden would have been mains stays in Leinster's European run under Schmidt and were top players.

It is time for a reshuffle and I'm sure we will see that in the coming weeks.

Kearney is the only Irish fullback who Schmidt rates,I'd love to see Zebo get a run for Ireland and Munster but until he does we're stuck wit Kearney unfortunately.McFadden has been dropped,he's behind Bowe,Trimble,Earls,Zebo,Fitzgerald and D Kearney.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:45 pm

Schmidt could not remotely 'rate' Kearney in his famous Monday morning video sessions. Schmidt has been a good coach but even he couldn't drag a 'more positives than negatives' reading about Kearney's self destructive 80minutes

by LeinsterFan4life Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:47 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:We see this a lot with coaches who are invloved in a country for a long time, they refuse to drop players that they once relied on. The likes of Rob Kearney and Mcfadden would have been mains stays in Leinster's European run under Schmidt and were top players.

It is time for a reshuffle and I'm sure we will see that in the coming weeks.

Kearney is the only Irish fullback who Schmidt rates,I'd love to see Zebo get a run for Ireland and Munster but until he does we're stuck wit Kearney unfortunately.McFadden has been dropped,he's behind Bowe,Trimble,Earls,Zebo,Fitzgerald and D Kearney.

Whether he's the only one he rates or not Kearney needs to be dropped by Ireland in imo Leinster too. He was left with egg on his face trying to chase Daly for his try for Wasps. He really should have been playing against Zebre at the weekend to try and prove his form.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:47 pm

eirebilly wrote:

For a start, no way was Rob Kearney to be included in that team. He is woefully out of form and looked a shadow of himself there. Payne or Henshaw to 15 ahead of him is not a big change. McFadden is not the player he once was and should not have been parachuted into the team. TOH or Gilroy are better players to have on the wings and I would seriously question Schmidt if he does not rate them.

Having a midfield of McCloskey with Payne or Henshaw (the other one dropping to 15 would add more balance. I would not have Zebo at 15 either, he may offer a lot in attack but he also is not great in his positioning at fullback. For me he is on the bench to cover wing.

These are not wholesale changes but they are changes that would give Ireland more balance in attack and not remove anything in defence.

Its not about getting rid of Leinster players, its about getting form players in ahead of out of form players. Unfortunately for your good self, the out of form players are from Leinster.

You're ignoring my point that Schmidt rates training time very highly,he already has a hugely disrupted team so on top of that with 90 minutes prep training time for the France match you want a new full back and a new midfield pairing.You seem to want to move Payne back so that's Henshaws position moved too,he now has to work on a different position as well.
I have no problem with the changes you suggest,I'd like to see a lot of them myself,I have a problem with you saying it's Leinster bias and not recognising that maybe there are more realistic reasons behind it.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:52 pm

Schmidt is realistic... therefore he must see that many of the players in their 'settled' roles aren't functioning nearly well enough to keep the train moving uphill. He's realistic. But now he needs to prove it. He needs to let his storied deep analysis tell him the truth and make changes to two things accordingly:
1: Personnel
2: TACTICS!

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:53 pm

I am not saying it is Leinster bias, I am saying that he is selecting them based on the fact that he coached them and seems to ship them in ahead of form players when they are not the best options available.

Henshaw moving to either 13 or 15 is not a big change as you may think since he plays 13 or 15 regularly. He is out of position at 12!

Payne is exactly the same as having excellent experience at either 13 or 15.

McCloskey coming in to play in his best position is a no brainer.

These are not massive changes.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:53 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:At the start of Schmidt's reign I could understand the extra support for Leinster players as he knew them all very well. He has now been Ireland coach for a good while so that affinity for Leinster players should not be as strong. I cant understand just why players from other provinces who are in much better form are being overlooked for out of form Leinster players.

Now before anyone accuses me of hatred for Leinster (asoreleftshoulder), I would be saying the same thing if it were any of the other provinces as well.

I do believe that had their been a few small tweaks in the squad then Ireland wouls have beaten both Wales and France.

Apart from Madigan on the bench ahead of Jackson this isn't happening.Schmidt doesn't rate Gilroy,that's obvious so form doesn't come into it if he doesn't think he's good enough.If he rated him at all then he'd be in the squad as we are down so many wingers now there are very few fit one left.

Henshaw and Payne are keeping Marshall and McCloskey out of the team,now you can shuffle the team around to remove as many Leinster players as you can but Schmidt doesn't want to change one of the units that is actually functioning well,you might not agree with his reasoning but to claim his refusal to make massive changes to the team is Leinster bias just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.It's far more likely that he wants to keep the units he has established since there are so many other areas with new combinations that the training time could be better spent on.

The problem most people seem to have is they don't value training time as much as Schmidt obviously does,they just think that put x player in here and voila I've solved the problem,Schmidt rates time spent in preparation very highly so he's not prepared to just throw in multiple new players and switch everyone like a bad impression of Marc Lievremont.

If form doesn't come into it and it solely comes down to Schmidt's personal preference as you seem to suggest then that is a rather significant problem. If you ignore the best players in the country and refuse to integrate them into the team then that is a huge mistake. I don't think this is the case however as Jackson, Marshall, McCloskey and others have indeed been brought into the training squad.

Whatever it is that Schmidt values over the rest of us mere armchair coaches, the reality is that it isn't working. Sometimes bringing in player x does actually make a difference when they demand selection as the best players in the country. For example, selecting an out of form Fergus McFadden on the bench in a game that had the potential to really open up due to the ridiculous notion of understanding the system or whatever doesn't exactly scream clever coaching to me.

People are clearly suggesting that our backline would have been irrelevant in this game but I strongly disagree. Even if the pack is getting bested (and our pack were better than I expected for majority of the game) there is such a thing as broken play which happens in every game and in an international game all it takes is one or two players to slice the defence open and put his team on the front foot. There must be balance here and as I said before I feel that some are putting a lot of faith into these "systems" and seeing things that aren't actually there. I think Schmidt is actually trying to play a more expansive game and he is going the wrong way about it.

Also, is it just me or have there been a few changes made to the forum? I'm having great difficulty when quoting someone. Every time I try to select part of the text it jumps to the bottom of the page making it impossible.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:54 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

For a start, no way was Rob Kearney to be included in that team. He is woefully out of form and looked a shadow of himself there. Payne or Henshaw to 15 ahead of him is not a big change. McFadden is not the player he once was and should not have been parachuted into the team. TOH or Gilroy are better players to have on the wings and I would seriously question Schmidt if he does not rate them.

Having a midfield of McCloskey with Payne or Henshaw (the other one dropping to 15 would add more balance. I would not have Zebo at 15 either, he may offer a lot in attack but he also is not great in his positioning at fullback. For me he is on the bench to cover wing.

These are not wholesale changes but they are changes that would give Ireland more balance in attack and not remove anything in defence.

Its not about getting rid of Leinster players, its about getting form players in ahead of out of form players. Unfortunately for your good self, the out of form players are from Leinster.

You're ignoring my point that Schmidt rates training time very highly,he already has a hugely disrupted team so on top of that with 90 minutes prep training time for the France match you want a new full back and a new midfield pairing.You seem to want to move Payne back so that's Henshaws position moved too,he now has to work on a different position as well.
I have no problem with the changes you suggest,I'd like to see a lot of them myself,I have a problem with you saying it's Leinster bias and not recognising that maybe there are more realistic reasons behind it.

He isn't entirely wrong though - Schmidt is sticking to what he knows. This is a mistake in my opinion. Also regarding both Payne and Henshaw, they would be moving to positions that many feel they are naturally better in anyway. I would be happy to keep Payne at 13 for now though.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:02 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:At the start of Schmidt's reign I could understand the extra support for Leinster players as he knew them all very well. He has now been Ireland coach for a good while so that affinity for Leinster players should not be as strong. I cant understand just why players from other provinces who are in much better form are being overlooked for out of form Leinster players.

Now before anyone accuses me of hatred for Leinster (asoreleftshoulder), I would be saying the same thing if it were any of the other provinces as well.

I do believe that had their been a few small tweaks in the squad then Ireland wouls have beaten both Wales and France.

Apart from Madigan on the bench ahead of Jackson this isn't happening.Schmidt doesn't rate Gilroy,that's obvious so form doesn't come into it if he doesn't think he's good enough.If he rated him at all then he'd be in the squad as we are down so many wingers now there are very few fit one left.

Henshaw and Payne are keeping Marshall and McCloskey out of the team,now you can shuffle the team around to remove as many Leinster players as you can but Schmidt doesn't want to change one of the units that is actually functioning well,you might not agree with his reasoning but to claim his refusal to make massive changes to the team is Leinster bias just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.It's far more likely that he wants to keep the units he has established since there are so many other areas with new combinations that the training time could be better spent on.

The problem most people seem to have is they don't value training time as much as Schmidt obviously does,they just think that put x player in here and voila I've solved the problem,Schmidt rates time spent in preparation very highly so he's not prepared to just throw in multiple new players and switch everyone like a bad impression of Marc Lievremont.

If form doesn't come into it and it solely comes down to Schmidt's personal preference as you seem to suggest then that is a rather significant problem. If you ignore the best players in the country and refuse to integrate them into the team then that is a huge mistake. I don't think this is the case however as Jackson, Marshall, McCloskey and others have indeed been brought into the training squad.

Whatever it is that Schmidt values over the rest of us mere armchair coaches, the reality is that it isn't working. Sometimes bringing in player x does actually make a difference when they demand selection as the best players in the country. For example, selecting an out of form Fergus McFadden on the bench in a game that had the potential to really open up due to the ridiculous notion of understanding the system or whatever doesn't exactly scream clever coaching to me.

People are clearly suggesting that our backline would have been irrelevant in this game but I strongly disagree. Even if the pack is getting bested (and our pack were better than I expected for majority of the game) there is such a thing as broken play which happens in every game and in an international game all it takes is one or two players to slice the defence open and put his team on the front foot. There must be balance here and as I said before I feel that some are putting a lot of faith into these "systems" and seeing things that aren't actually there. I think Schmidt is actually trying to play a more expansive game and he is going the wrong way about it.

Also, is it just me or have there been a few changes made to the forum? I'm having great difficulty when quoting someone. Every time I try to select part of the text it jumps to the bottom of the page making it impossible.

Agree with most of that Rory. The scrum dictates a routine and if they function well more wins generally come from it on a more regular basis. But having a poor scrum doesn't allow a team to just down tools and not play. There are many ways to skin a cat and our continuing problem is that we lack a cutting edge in the system and lack cutting edge players to make offkilter creativity work in our favour. The fluidity of attack has gone completely from this Ireland side and for that you have to put a lot of the blame on that training camp and the kinds of emphasis being placed in training camp.... demonstrably not enough on open instinct play of evasion, offload, speed and keyed-in ready support lines.

On the 606 thing...yep, I've been finding this site glitch and buggy now for perhaps a year or so..... and that quote thing was acting up here to this morning

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:09 pm

I actually felt that Ireland tried a very good style of game against Wales but there was just that bit of balance missing in the attack.

Same story yesterday, the Ireland pack more than had parity in the first half but the backline was again unbalanced. With a more fluid backline (with the changes I propose) I firmly believe that Ireland would have won both those games.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:17 pm

eirebilly wrote:I actually felt that Ireland tried a very good style of game against Wales but there was just that bit of balance missing in the attack.

Same story yesterday, the Ireland pack more than had parity in the first half but the backline was again unbalanced. With a more fluid backline (with the changes I propose) I firmly believe that Ireland would have won both those games.

The frustrating thing billy is that had we a more creative attack game (accurately handled!!...no fumbles and knock-on childish messing) than no, we wouldn't have won both games, we'd have won easily. The big problem I have with this Ireland of the Schmidt era is that they have won games without showing much genuine fluidity in attack at all. I can't see where the 'risk' is in emphasising attack more routinely. I still think it suffers in training to the philosophy of defence. The philosophy of defence gets more prominence. It's the only conclusion any observer can make as one sometimes produces monumental heroics and the other is extremely dull... dullest of all 6N participants actually.

Let's try the SH philosophy of 'we'll score more than you' which by definition negates defence to a secondary role and trusts more to attack to reach the same conclusions... a win.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:24 pm

Its getting there Fly but I seriously feel that Schmidt needs to have a long hard look in the mirror about yesterday. That was not a good French team and I feel Schmidt showed them far too much respect. The tournament is over for Ireland now so I would like to see him use the available form players. I have a feeling they wont let him down.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:34 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be honest I'm not interested in going into full experimental mode for the sake of it. We should be most concerned about winning the rest of our games above all else and that is entirely possible. I would like Schmidt to select the team that will win the rest of the games. That is going to require some serious changes though.

Is there a two week break before the next match?

Yeah and we need it. To be honest, for me the three biggest problems have been converting opportunities, scrums and fitness. The first two I've covered, but we looked exhausted from about 50 minutes on against France. Same against Wales.

When you look at that and the injury list you wonder if some of our top players have just played too much rugby over the past number of seasons and now need a break from the game for a few months.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I actually felt that Ireland tried a very good style of game against Wales but there was just that bit of balance missing in the attack.

Same story yesterday, the Ireland pack more than had parity in the first half but the backline was again unbalanced. With a more fluid backline (with the changes I propose) I firmly believe that Ireland would have won both those games.

The frustrating thing billy is that had we a more creative attack game (accurately handled!!...no fumbles and knock-on childish messing) than no, we wouldn't have won both games, we'd have won easily. The big problem I have with this Ireland of the Schmidt era is that they have won games without showing much genuine fluidity in attack at all. I can't see where the 'risk' is in emphasising attack more routinely. I still think it suffers in training to the philosophy of defence. The philosophy of defence gets more prominence. It's the only conclusion any observer can make as one sometimes produces monumental heroics and the other is extremely dull... dullest of all 6N participants actually.

Let's try the SH philosophy of 'we'll score more than you' which by definition negates defence to a secondary role and trusts more to attack to reach the same conclusions... a win.

To be honest, I doubt we're going to get that short term as the IRFU have once again left us in the position (temporarily) of having no dedicated defence coach. So Schmidt is in charge of defence and in charge of attack. Every minute he spends on one area takes away from the other. If he spends more time on attack, no-one is working on defence.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:50 pm

Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I actually felt that Ireland tried a very good style of game against Wales but there was just that bit of balance missing in the attack.

Same story yesterday, the Ireland pack more than had parity in the first half but the backline was again unbalanced. With a more fluid backline (with the changes I propose) I firmly believe that Ireland would have won both those games.

The frustrating thing billy is that had we a more creative attack game (accurately handled!!...no fumbles and knock-on childish messing) than no, we wouldn't have won both games, we'd have won easily. The big problem I have with this Ireland of the Schmidt era is that they have won games without showing much genuine fluidity in attack at all. I can't see where the 'risk' is in emphasising attack more routinely. I still think it suffers in training to the philosophy of defence. The philosophy of defence gets more prominence. It's the only conclusion any observer can make as one sometimes produces monumental heroics and the other is extremely dull... dullest of all 6N participants actually.

Let's try the SH philosophy of 'we'll score more than you' which by definition negates defence to a secondary role and trusts more to attack to reach the same conclusions... a win.

To be honest, I doubt we're going to get that short term as the IRFU have once again left us in the position (temporarily) of having no dedicated defence coach. So Schmidt is in charge of defence and in charge of attack. Every minute he spends on one area takes away from the other. If he spends more time on attack, no-one is working on defence.

Attack wins games too. In order to defend something you need to have gotten something. We rely too heavily on defending very little indeed. We don't impose ourselves, we don't make any side think they're going to be under pressure for a full sharp 80 minutes....they come expecting us to have long periods of sitting back - and we always accommodate.

Too much talk of defending being the 'safe' option whilst attack is the 'risk'. Both include both elements - but which kind of gameplan wins more games? Attack - real intensely drilled and practiced attack. It's not happening in Ireland camp - it just isn't. Nobody will tell me it is on the evidence of the last few years.

Even when Schmidt had his defence coach, Ireland were playing the same way. It's just that they're getting even worse at playing a gameplan that's been found out. Add a little pace and we're dead. Every team of worth knows that's the key now. Ireland can't handle the defending game they've practiced so long at (accurate, pacy, offloading attack kills it dead eventually) - and we have little in attack ourselves to offset the slide in the effectiveness of our defence.

The style pattern and emphasis needs changing or we're quickly going down the rankings again.

by SecretFly Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:55 pm

Ronan on RTE: England train all week with intensity. Tempo, tempo, tempo.

Now that's modern International rugby and the players and training you need to live with it. Sitting back waiting for that to come at you for 40 or 50 minutes is just looking for trouble.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:28 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am not saying it is Leinster bias, I am saying that he is selecting them based on the fact that he coached them and seems to ship them in ahead of form players when they are not the best options available.

Henshaw moving to either 13 or 15 is not a big change as you may think since he plays 13 or 15 regularly. He is out of position at 12!

Payne is exactly the same as having excellent experience at either 13 or 15.

McCloskey coming in to play in his best position is a no brainer.

These are not massive changes.

Yeah that's a different way of saying the same thing,however he didn't bring in Ross,Healy or Ruddock this week.All 3 were fit and have done well for him at international level before.He didn't bring them in because he values the preparation time so highly.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:37 pm

I am trying to be objective here asorleftshoulder yet you keep trying to paint me as a Leinster hater which is simply not true.

The reason I was using those three players is because I thought that they played particularly poorly and it was no surprise given Rob's recent poor form and McFadden form up to his suspension.

Granted Dave Kearney has not been in bad form but he is never going to set a game alight.

by theslosty Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:43 pm

I don't think the likes of Kearney have been as bad as made out and I don't think the team performance was the worst of the Schmidt era either. France's defence in the first half was incredibly physical and their scrum was worth at least 15 points over the 80 minutes. I'm not sure any of the other 6N sides would have grabbed a win.
Nevertheless Schmidt has reached a critical point in his tenure. It was difficult to argue against his selections and tactics when we were winning games but the team is crying out for a reshuffle now. I wonder if he is concerned with the age profile of the squad at all given he may have moved on by 2019.

Also Robbie Henshaw's departure from Connacht has been confirmed. If he moves to Leinster I do hope he is developed as a 15 rather than as a 12.

by theslosty Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:47 pm

I don't want to have a go at Jared Payne because he has and still does serve us well at 13 but I do think he labours our attack a bit. Although Earls doesn't read the game as well in defence and makes the odd handling error he offered more of a threat in the RWC. I want to see the McCloskey Henshaw partnership sooner rather than later. I'm not too concerned if McCloskey gets caught out by the electric feet of Owen Farrell against England...

by eirebilly Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:48 pm

I thought that Rob Kearney had a very poor game losty, he really does look a shadow of himself. Mybe its me judging him too harshly because I know exactly what he is capable of. Just now, I would have Payne or Henshaw ahead of him easily.

A very real shame if Henshaw is to leave Connacht.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:49 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am trying to be objective here asorleftshoulder yet you keep trying to paint me as a Leinster hater which is simply not true.

The reason I was using those three players is because I thought that they played particularly poorly and it was no surprise given Rob's recent poor form and McFadden form up to his suspension.

Granted Dave Kearney has not been in bad form but he is never going to set a game alight.

Thew problem is you are painting the alternatives up to being something they aren't,Gilroy might do a job but we're talking about an argument over our 6th or 7th choice winger,I'm sorry but no way is that player going to make a big difference.Kearney playing poorly was no surprise to me either but the choice was either put him in or chop the team apart and hope that Payne,McCloskey and Henshaw can all adjust to new roles in the Irish team with 90 minutes training.You might not agree with it but you could acknowledge there is some merit to his position.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:50 pm

My big concern with Henshaw moving to Leinster is that Ringrose is at 13, Cian Kelleher at 15- is he going to be pushed into playing 12 for Leinster with Te'o leaving?

Always seen Henshaw as a stopgap 12 and would like him to be playing his rugby at 13 or 15 at club level.

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