The Ireland Squad Announcement Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the discussion on the 'Ireland 2016 Squad' thread which can be found here.

Ireland squad has been announced. It contains four uncapped players- Stuart McCloskey, Ultan Dillane, Josh van der Flier and CJ Stander. However there is no room for Garry Ringrose. Mike Ross, Cian Healy and Chris Henry have all been omitted due to injury but may feature later as they return to fitness in their provincial set-ups.

Ireland Squad RBS 6 Nations 2016 Rounds 1 & 2

Forwards (19)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
CJ Stander (Munster)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
Nathan White (Connacht)

Backs (16)

Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
Stuart McCloskey (McCloskey/Ulster)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster)

*Denotes uncapped player

[asoreleftshoulder]

My big concern with Henshaw moving to Leinster is that Ringrose is at 13, Cian Kelleher at 15- is he going to be pushed into playing 12 for Leinster with Te'o leaving?

Always seen Henshaw as a stopgap 12 and would like him to be playing his rugby at 13 or 15 at club level.

It looks the most likely scenario alright,what are the chances we see Olding get an extended run at 15 for Ulster?

[SecretFly]

Look, I like reasoned debate but Kearney damn near dropped one or two of his own players AND himself onto the stretcher and out of the game due to an inability to think cool under pressure.  
He's no child learning his trade, he's been in heavy duty games before with a lot riding on it, he should at this stage know the wisdom of being a cool seasoned head in a team bereft of more 'usual' leaders.  The onus is now on him (if he continues to be chosen) and other senior players to show the way to less experienced players and calm the f**k down in adversity.  Be the cooling focus on a team needing inspiration....keep his nerve and play the game in front of him.  Play hard - keep the mind cool.  He was spooking his players as much as the French players assaulting our lines.
I can't see how anyone could say Kearney was decent yesterday. He was by no means the only player that fluffed his lines but he certainly was one of the main reasons for the unease that sprinkled through the team.

[theslosty]

That's exactly what I am fearing Notch. It doesn't make any sense to develop him as a 12 given the wealth of options we have there.
We don't know if he is definitely Leinster-bound yet but if so I would think he will play 13 for the first season and then move back to 15 as Ringrose comes through.

[theslosty]

Fly
Kearney and the rest of the backline made some important tackles on players twice their size in the second half. Sexton in particular made some incredible try saving tackles which probably lead to his substitution. I concur with some of your analysis but I can't agree the players are struggling to fire themselves up.
You're bemoaning a lack of 'rage' on one hand and a lack of composure on the other.

[SecretFly]

Composure and rage are not mutually exclusive - you attack with fire in the belly but you use learned, drilled, calm and practiced systems to make the attacking count.  When Wales or England attack, they do so with heart and pomp and spirit but it's practiced coldly over and over to make it work naturally rather than people running around like hot headed chickens trying to impress with no regimentation to it at all (example; Ireland yesterday - headless in attack - just rushed, almost fearful lunges that they hoped might work.)

It all looked panicked rather than drilled theslosty, and I've identified two of the players that didn't do it for me yesterday as others undoubtedly think of other players when they think of players that under-performed at this level.  
Ironically, I chose one player that was way too pepped up and frantic and another that was too laid back under the circumstances.  There you go - the peculiarities of trying to get the right mood going through the team - perhaps the Captain's job?

But on that Sexton point - Yes... Sexton was heroic in defence... but his name ain't Kearney so I didn't thank Kearney for Sexton's efforts

[Rory_Gallagher]

My big concern with Henshaw moving to Leinster is that Ringrose is at 13, Cian Kelleher at 15- is he going to be pushed into playing 12 for Leinster with Te'o leaving?

Always seen Henshaw as a stopgap 12 and would like him to be playing his rugby at 13 or 15 at club level.

Yes I am absolutely certain that if he moves to Leinster he will be almost permanently used at 12. What a waste, and probably a huge mistake in terms of his career.

I just had a thought that would be even more worrying. Perhaps he will be favoured as the Irish 12 for years to come and the move to Leinster will secure his position. I was joking yesterday when I said we should stick with him over Olding, McCloskey and Marshall but perhaps that will be the reality. Which would be ridiculously stupid.

[Rory_Gallagher]

My big concern with Henshaw moving to Leinster is that Ringrose is at 13, Cian Kelleher at 15- is he going to be pushed into playing 12 for Leinster with Te'o leaving?

Always seen Henshaw as a stopgap 12 and would like him to be playing his rugby at 13 or 15 at club level.

It looks the most likely scenario alright,what are the chances we see Olding get an extended run at 15 for Ulster?

He is good at 15 (as well as any other position in the backline) but best at 12. He wouldn't be effective under the high ball, unlike Henshaw. Why not keep players where they are most effective instead of shuffling about for no apparent reason? Henshaw is quite clearly best at 13/15 and it would be pointless to play Henshaw at 12 and Olding at 15. It would be ludicrous actually. Put the talented 5 foot 9 playmaker who is weak under the high ball at fullback and put the 6 foot 3 player who is lethal in the wider channels at 12. There would be no logic in that.

I know this has never happened and hopefully never will, but if the IRFU get to dictate where players are to be positioned then it is a possibility. I'm not at all pleased with Henshaw moving away from Connacht and I think it is a big mistake.

[Notch]

I think the IRFU wanted him to stay at Connacht Rory. A lot of people talk about the Henshaw thing as if the Union can just make players play where they want but if he's truly made his mind up he's done at Connacht and they block Henshaw from moving to Leinster, he'll just go to England or France instead. IRFU has played chicken with contracts many times and lost (see also; Marty Moore). Accommodate whatever keeps him in Ireland I say.

[Notch]

My big concern with Henshaw moving to Leinster is that Ringrose is at 13, Cian Kelleher at 15- is he going to be pushed into playing 12 for Leinster with Te'o leaving?

Always seen Henshaw as a stopgap 12 and would like him to be playing his rugby at 13 or 15 at club level.

It looks the most likely scenario alright,what are the chances we see Olding get an extended run at 15 for Ulster?

Hopefully none whatsoever to be blunt. Pushing a player who is a natural 12 to play 15, despite him having a history of knee ligament injuries that could be exacerbated by repeated fielding of the high ball, because a player who is a very natural 15 is being pushed to play 12 at another province would be too damn stupid to put into words. To be quite frank. Doubt Les Kiss will allow it. Olding is the key to making our back line more slick and more unpredictable; I do not see any other centre with his ability to read the game, range of passing and decision making skills apart from maybe Ringrose. We would want Olding available as a secondary playmaker in the backs. Olding doesn't move to accommodate other players, other players move to accommodate him.

Kearney needs to be replaced. We have Olding, McCloskey, Marshall and Ringrose at centre. Play Henshaw at 15 please Leinster.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

The discussion around personnel is always interesting and valid given the players being picked. But it seems to be more about the style of play which is disappointing. Its one step forward and two steps back by the look of things. The concerns over JS's preferred style of play must be a valid argument at this stage. There isnt anything of note in terms of a "change in style" and the so called power plays arent bearing any fruit.

Its interesting to see how Scottish back play has developed under Cotter versus Schmidt for Ireland.

[The Great Aukster]

The selection of Ireland's backs is academic while the forwards can't secure set piece ball from the scrum. Teams can simply target Ireland in the scrum and watch the penalties rack up. If Ireland can't get in the right part of the pitch and then secure the ball discussion on set piece plays and backs selection is incidental.

[LeinsterFan4life]

The discussion around personnel is always interesting and valid given the players being picked. But it seems to be more about the style of play which is disappointing. Its one step forward and two steps back by the look of things. The concerns over JS's preferred style of play must be a valid argument at this stage. There isnt anything of note in terms of a "change in style" and the so called power plays arent bearing any fruit.

Its interesting to see how Scottish back play has developed under Cotter versus Schmidt for Ireland.

And yet Schmidt has two 6 nations titles, while the Scottish try to avoid yet another wooden spoon.

[theslosty]

Luke Fitzgerald looks fairly settled at 12 for Leinster and with Teo leaving 13 should be where Henshaw will initially fill in. After a year or so Ringrose should be pushing for a start and Rob K will be nearly finished. Unless Leinster sign a high profile 13 or 15 Henshaw should avoid playing 12.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

The discussion around personnel is always interesting and valid given the players being picked. But it seems to be more about the style of play which is disappointing. Its one step forward and two steps back by the look of things. The concerns over JS's preferred style of play must be a valid argument at this stage. There isnt anything of note in terms of a "change in style" and the so called power plays arent bearing any fruit.

Its interesting to see how Scottish back play has developed under Cotter versus Schmidt for Ireland.

And yet Schmidt has two 6 nations titles, while the Scottish try to avoid yet another wooden spoon.

Very true but then again if you look at the tries scored by Scotland yesterday, being a dodgy decision away from a world cup semi and where they were two years ago when Cotter took over tells another story in terms of development. Its still probably the case that we will beat Scotland (I would very much expect it regardless of personnel) but I dont see us threatening any of the SH teams especially away from home given how we play.

[carpet baboon]

Let's assume the end goal is the world cup. Are we willing to lose some games now in order to.build a squad for the 2019 world cup?
And I do mean squad.I don't want a 15 who can do it and sub par replacements.
So let's get the players who we expect to be there in 2019 starting games and in the match day23. So I'm talking furlong, McCloskey, olding, Cronin J , Ultan etc
So what if we slip down the rankings let's get to the world cup with a squad that will be feared by whoever we play. Not relying on the older guard to see us through and having nothing below that when the get injured.
That's my view. Pain now for.greater gain later.

[SecretFly]

Oh Yummm! I love the masochistic approach.. Whip, chains and self flagellation..... let's do it for a season of two and see what bunch of submissives we have coming out the other end.

[RubyGuby]

Anyway Fly - About that Curve I was mentioning

[carpet baboon]

Or fly it could breed gladiators who have tasted the pain of defeat and now refuse to yeild to mortal man

[SecretFly]

Yis can't take the pain Ruby.... that's why your guys are trying so hard to stay up.... fear of the pleasure dungeon of kinky pain.
We're quite looking forward to it for a few years, actually. It'll get us in a very good mood. Sexton couldn't even wait for the official start and has been giving it a right go now for over a year.... as Barnes growled in Platoon; "Take the Pain! Take the Pain!!"

[carpet baboon]

And if its whips and chains you like shall I will nvite you to one of my special meetings?

[SecretFly]

Or fly it could breed gladiators who have tasted the pain of defeat and now refuse to yeild to mortal man

Oh, I'm with you on the whole deal, baboon. But will Joe have the stomach for it?

[carpet baboon]

Or fly it could breed gladiators who have tasted the pain of defeat and now refuse to yeild to mortal man

Oh, I'm with you on the whole deal, baboon.  But will Joe have the stomach for it?  

Joe comes from the land of orcs so you would think he has

[profitius]

If you were to rank Irelands backs 11 - 15 in terms of attacking ability I'd say it would be something like this. Its not an exact science and its my rough opinion so nobody get their knickers in a twist


Tier 1 - Ringrose, Olding
T2 - McCloskey, Payne (at 15), Henshaw (at 15 or 13)
T3 - Earls, Zebo, Gilroy, Healy, Bowe (age could be a factor), Scholes (?)
T4 - Trimble, Fitzgerald, O'Halloran, Henshaw (at 12), Arnold, Marshall
T5 - Cave, Dave Kearney, Reid, Payne (at 13), McFadden
T6 - Rob Kearney,


Last weekend we had a T7, T4, T5, T5, T4 as out backline with T5 on bench. And shock horror the team looked like they couldn't score in a brothel.


Lets look at the starters.
11. Dave Kearney AKA Daverage AKA DaveRage. Not as bad as some people make out but we have more dangerous players than him to call up. A Schmidt favourite.
12. Henshaw. He can play very well in 3 positions, 12 is his least effective. He is out of position.
13. Payne. So what if he is great defensively. If he can't attack he is also great defensively for the other team! A talented player when given the space at fullback.
14. Trimble. The one player nobody complained about. I don't mind him on the team even if he is not blisteringly fast because he adds some robustness to the backline.
15. Rob Kearney AKA Robnoxious. He isn't a great attacker and not dominating the air like he used to. He is a good kicker and experienced player but is there on reputation only. Payne and Henshaw would be a big step up from him and even Zebo offers more attacking threat.

Sub. McFadden. A good, dependable professional who won't let the side down. Did he deserve his place on the bench against France? Well you could argue the case for him being outside the top 10 candidates!


So what do we conclude from that. Schmidt could give a rats behind about attacking rugby. He picks his teams to counter the opposition's strengths rather than to play to Ireland's strengths.

[Don Alfonso]

Interesting... (he said, most definitely not getting his knickers in a twist).

[SecretFly]

Thanks Prof for the scientific breakdown

But you left out the bit that I'd have given you the Doctorate for......

Why does Schmidt become that bad bad man that once loved the running, charging and dancing beautiful rugby that does once be known as Leinster in the Spring ....................................... *sigh*.....................................and change himself in to being Kidney Mark11 with the kicking and banging and boshing and box kicks and players running forward with no support chasing them..... and Kearney not being able to jump no more????????

Do be answering that one for to be getting your Qualification.

[The Great Aukster]

What does Prof need a doctorate for if he's already... well a Prof?

Prof's analysis doesn't work for me because it's scored on provincial form. Ringrose for example has shown potential at P12 level but it's way to early to put him in the world class bracket!

When Ireland scored tries under EOS, he relied on the familiarity of the Leinster outside backs to create magic, because they knew each other's game so well. The legacy of that helped Schmidt at Leinster with the innate understanding of a settled backline.

Joe simply doesn't have time to replicate that at Test level, so he naturally wants to have a core of players who normally play together. It is no coincidence the Henshaw is going to Leinster to play with Sexton and Ringrose, where they can develop the telepathy that will hopefully translate to the green shirt. In the mean time he will push the defensive agenda because that has already delivered silverware.

[theslosty]

If Ireland are to play more expansively I think our breakdown tactics have to be reviewed.

1. Too many bodies at the ruck - it helps us slow down ball against most opposition but the slicker teams like Australia, Argentina and even England have exploited us in the wide channels. When in the opposite 22 we are forced to play one pass rugby as half the team is around the tackle area. I recognise quick ball is key but you can't say that aspect is working well either.

2. Wingers not playing on the wing - we know that Daverage and McFadden pride themselves on hitting rucks til the cows come home but all wingers under Schmidt do the same job. You don't want to see our best finishers like Keith Earls cutting inside to hit ruck after ruck in promising positions. You want him out wide where he can do most damage. I can see the logic of the tactic but think Schmidt has gone a bit overboard.

Given Schmidt's Leinster even in their attacking heyday preferred the inside ball to throwing it wide I don't see Joe changing this anytime soon. Merely an observation...

[profitius]

What does Prof need a doctorate for if he's already... well a Prof?

Prof's analysis doesn't work for me because it's scored on provincial form. Ringrose for example has shown potential at P12 level but it's way to early to put him in the world class bracket!

When Ireland scored tries under EOS, he relied on the familiarity of the Leinster outside backs to create magic, because they knew each other's game so well. The legacy of that helped Schmidt at Leinster with the innate understanding of a settled backline.

Joe simply doesn't have time to replicate that at Test level, so he naturally wants to have a core of players who normally play together. It is no coincidence the Henshaw is going to Leinster to play with Sexton and Ringrose, where they can develop the telepathy that will hopefully translate to the green shirt. In the mean time he will push the defensive agenda because that has already delivered silverware.

Indeed Aukster!


I think you can judge players on their provincial form. The backs on saturday played for Ireland as they play in the pro 12. Sure theres a big step up and some players will not be able to cope but some will. At the end of the day talent is talent. If players are not good enough, familiarity isn't going to be much good.

[Golden]

In other news I just saw Tommy bowe is en route to Chicago for an 'interesting announcement'. Presume that's the stateside game against NZ??

[profitius]

Thanks Prof for the scientific breakdown

But you left out the bit that I'd have given you the Doctorate for......

Why does Schmidt become that bad bad man that once loved the running, charging and dancing beautiful rugby that does once be known as Leinster in the Spring ....................................... *sigh*.....................................and change himself in to being Kidney Mark11 with the kicking and banging and boshing and box kicks and players running forward with no support chasing them..... and Kearney not being able to jump no more????????

Do be answering that one for to be getting your Qualification.

Hard to know with Schmidt. Maybe he is great at getting the best out of players but not at building a side?? Just a theory.

[The Great Aukster]

What does Prof need a doctorate for if he's already... well a Prof?

Prof's analysis doesn't work for me because it's scored on provincial form. Ringrose for example has shown potential at P12 level but it's way to early to put him in the world class bracket!

When Ireland scored tries under EOS, he relied on the familiarity of the Leinster outside backs to create magic, because they knew each other's game so well. The legacy of that helped Schmidt at Leinster with the innate understanding of a settled backline.

Joe simply doesn't have time to replicate that at Test level, so he naturally wants to have a core of players who normally play together. It is no coincidence the Henshaw is going to Leinster to play with Sexton and Ringrose, where they can develop the telepathy that will hopefully translate to the green shirt. In the mean time he will push the defensive agenda because that has already delivered silverware.

Indeed Aukster!


I think you can judge players on their provincial form. The backs on saturday played for Ireland as they play in the pro 12. Sure theres a big step up and some players will not be able to cope but some will. At the end of the day talent is talent. If players are not good enough, familiarity isn't going to be much good.  

In the Sunday Times article on POC it mentioned an interesting mantra of his in the Munster dressing room: "Let's be the best at the things that don't require talent".
In other words the things that Munster could control they would be the best at. That pragmatism may be shared by Joe as he can make his players the best at those elements he can control, but he can't imbue talent if it doesn't exist, or perhaps more accurately can't be relied on.
Olding for example may have great feet, good awareness, the requisite footballing and passing skills, but frankly is too small to survive against centres like Roberts, Basteraud or Tuillagi. Fine if the pack are putting the opposition on the back foot, but that isn't happening so he will constantly have to punch above his weight and therefore end up at risk.
Wales just about afforded the luxury of Shane Williams in their backline and if Halfpenny were fit he would be the current equivalent.
Ringrose is wiry but is still more boy than man in senior rugby. His junior partner Arnold doesn't look out of place in the Pro12 but is still lightweight. Right now I'd rule both of them out. Henshaw has the presence to play 12, but just having him isn't enough. Ireland need cover and that is where McCloskey comes in. Joe likes his like for like replacements!

[Rory_Gallagher]

I couldn't see Stuart Olding struggling against Roberts, Bastareaud (poor example) or Tuilagi anymore than any other international centre. He is a very good defender who punches well above his weight. Not to mention the fact that he is extremely robust in stature and definitely has the physicality for an inside centre. Ringrose has also not looked physically out of place in the Pro 12 and has put in some very big hits on men much bigger than he is. I think he has been trying to make a statement from the get go. He may look wiry but to be honest if he too can punch above his weight then it hardly matters (Liam Williams would be a good example of such a player). Conrad Smith is another player who was/is one of the best defensive 13s in the game and yet he hardly looks like a rugby player.

I still think it is a huge problem in our mindset that we would ignore a potentially groundbreaking centre midfield based on the fact they aren't as big as Bastareaud or Tuilagi. Really, who cares? If they can hold their own in defence then that is good enough for me. The question that should be asked is how would Roberts handle Olding? Or how would Tuilagi (who is also a poor example as he will probably not get back into the starting team) fare against Ringrose?

[Rory_Gallagher]

BTW I wouldn't bring Ringrose into the team just yet and I do think he will get a good bit of time to fill out a bit.

[Sin é]

2. Wingers not playing on the wing - we know that Daverage and McFadden pride themselves on hitting rucks til the cows come home but all wingers under Schmidt do the same job. You don't want to see our best finishers like Keith Earls cutting inside to hit ruck after ruck in promising positions. You want him out wide where he can do most damage. I can see the logic of the tactic but think Schmidt has gone a bit overboard.

Given Schmidt's Leinster even in their attacking heyday preferred the inside ball to throwing it wide I don't see Joe changing this anytime soon. Merely an observation...

How true. the42.ie did some analysis a while back where Keith Earls hit more rucks (successfully) than any of the pack!

[The Great Aukster]

I couldn't see Stuart Olding struggling against Roberts, Bastareaud (poor example) or Tuilagi anymore than any other international centre. He is a very good defender who punches well above his weight. Not to mention the fact that he is extremely robust in stature and definitely has the physicality for an inside centre. Ringrose has also not looked physically out of place in the Pro 12 and has put in some very big hits on men much bigger than he is. I think he has been trying to make a statement from the get go. He may look wiry but to be honest if he too can punch above his weight then it hardly matters (Liam Williams would be a good example of such a player). Conrad Smith is another player who was/is one of the best defensive 13s in the game and yet he hardly looks like a rugby player.

I still think it is a huge problem in our mindset that we would ignore a potentially groundbreaking centre midfield based on the fact they aren't as big as Bastareaud or Tuilagi. Really, who cares? If they can hold their own in defence then that is good enough for me. The question that should be asked is how would Roberts handle Olding? Or how would Tuilagi (who is also a poor example as he will probably not get back into the starting team) fare against Ringrose?

Players can get hurt for any number of reasons, but a physical mismatch stacks the odds one way.

Like Smith, Olding would be absolutely fine playing for the All Blacks (even though he's a couple of inches shorter and a stone lighter). They have the pack and 15 man handling skills to spread the ball quickly so his attacking prowess would come to the fore. I'd be surprised if Smith put in teens of tackles every game because they usually are the ones being tackled. Ireland don't have that range of skills spread throughout the team so inevitably they will lose possession and make more tackles so Smith is almost literally poles apart from Olding. Stuart has shown he has plenty of heart and will tackle bigger men effectively, but at what personal cost?

Japan showed at the RWC that physical disadvantage can be overcome on a one-off basis, but then tournaments are many games. Joe is obviously trying to build continuity and familiarity in the team because he has tried to replace injured players with direct cover rather than shuffle other players into part time positions.
Joe is also trying to spread the workload across the team. People wonder why the wingers aren't on the wings, but it's because Ireland can't afford for them to be. Everyone has to share in the workload to preserve player stamina which is better for the well-being of the team.

Eddie O'Sullivan tried to play his best players all the time, thus having both the flair and familiarity in the team. It often worked for individual games but that 'golden' generation failed to deliver anything more than a Triple Crown, because inevitably a player would get injured and the cover wouldn't fit in. While the Irish pack is not delivering front foot ball to attack from, the midfield's job is primarily to defend so putting in attacking players over defensive ones does both them and the team a disservice.

[JmD]

Joe is also trying to spread the workload across the team. People wonder why the wingers aren't on the wings, but it's because Ireland can't afford for them to be. Everyone has to share in the workload to preserve player stamina which is better for the well-being of the team.

I'm sorry, but what? Every other international side can afford to do it, but Ireland can't? Clearly this isn't true as Ireland have faded horribly in the last 2 games, so there is no argument for preserving stamina. Don't just make things up.

[Gwlad]

How many of the currently crocked will be fit in 2 weeks. I hear Sexton is ok.... SOB et al?

I still expect a massive game from the Irish and IMO they will raise the bar.

Yet again England fans are wallowing in the we hammered Italy and stuttered past Scotland glow. I dont expect the camp is so naive....

Ireland teams of yore get the bit between their teeth when under the cosh, shame POC isnt there to drum them up but class sides tend to bounce back and the Irish will be chomping at the bit for this one.

I'd love to see it raining hard as I think that would suit the Irish, certain players like Heaslip and Best MUST step up. Stander has been immense.

[wolfball]

Again, people are acting like certain facts don't exist:

1. Ranking our attackng players as if they are all available to play and not injured. McCloskey is only one in that list who can feel hard done by. The rest haven't shown it in europe, are injured, or just back from injury.

2. That we are playing like we did the last two seasons. WE ARE CLEARLY NOT. We are barely kicking. We go through huge numbers of passes, and we are less effective. We are losing. The weakest parts of our game right now I believe are:
lack of kicking as a weapon
passive defence
poor breakdown play
lack of offloads
too much one out runners into contact


3. Ranking points - there is no way we can sacrifice games to build experience and build to the next world cup this season, as we are too low in the rankings as it is, with massive SH games all year ahead. Do people really want us in a group with Wales and SA at the next RWC?

[wolfball]

Also, the thing I am most worried about is Joe's body language, attitude and public statements (the recent one on pundits and injuries for example) make him seem like he feels his back against the wall. When coaches feel like that, they tend to be worse coaches. I really want him to turn it around, and I am giving him my full backing until after the SA tour. If we win a SA tour, that is massive, way more important than any lions nonsense, and by far the most important thing this year. If we don't win the tour/embarrass ourselves, Joe is in trouble, deservedly so.

[eirebilly]

I don't get this whole 'have to be big in the centres' malarkey. Players who are smaller (Olding and Ringrose eg) Have great defensive techniques that makes up for any size issues. Conrad Smith (as Rory said) is the perfect example of this. Its the brains beats brawn argument.

The pack may be missing some big game players with experience but they are also not lacking their to an extreme either. They got front foot ball regularly for around 50mins against France until their big lads came on, that's when Irelands pack started to struggle. Given a more balanced backline, utilising the talents available, Ireland could and possibly should have had the game won by that stage (same with the Wales game).

I wont go into my preferred backline suggestions again as I have done it enough but it continues to flabbergast me that people think that it would be a huge gamble to bring one player into the team and make a couple of positional changes (whereby players playing in their best positions). This can be true.

Scotland, for years, set up teams to purely counter others and look what it got them. I feel Ireland are doing the same but a getting better results than them due to the better core of players available but still the same approach. Ireland will continue in its downward spiral until Schmidt realises this, bites the bullet and actually selects teams that will play to their own strengths and go for matches rather than get small leads and sit back and defend.

[carpet baboon]

[quote="wolfball"]Again, people are acting like certain facts don't exist:

1. Ranking our attackng players as if they are all available to play and not injured. McCloskey is only one in that list who can feel hard done by. The rest haven't shown it in europe, are injured, or just back from injury.

2. That we are playing like we did the last two seasons. WE ARE CLEARLY NOT. We are barely kicking. We go through huge numbers of passes, and we are less effective. We are losing. The weakest parts of our game right now I believe are:
lack of kicking as a weapon
passive defence
poor breakdown play
lack of offloads
too much one out runners into contact


3. Ranking points - there is no way we can sacrifice games to build experience and build to the next world cup this season, as we are too low in the rankings as it is, with massive SH games all year ahead. Do people really want us in a group with Wales and SA at the next RWC?[/quote]

Ranking points i think are a poor excuse for not building asquad. To win a world cup you need asquad of players good enough. No point tbeing in an easier group if your relying on 15 men to stay fit. I would rather have Wales and SA in our group and a squad of players good enough to beat them both,

[GunsGerms]

Again, people are acting like certain facts don't exist:

1. Ranking our attackng players as if they are all available to play and not injured. McCloskey is only one in that list who can feel hard done by. The rest haven't shown it in europe, are injured, or just back from injury.

2. That we are playing like we did the last two seasons. WE ARE CLEARLY NOT. We are barely kicking. We go through huge numbers of passes, and we are less effective. We are losing. The weakest parts of our game right now I believe are:
lack of kicking as a weapon
passive defence
poor breakdown play
lack of offloads
too much one out runners into contact


3. Ranking points - there is no way we can sacrifice games to build experience and build to the next world cup this season, as we are too low in the rankings as it is, with massive SH games all year ahead. Do people really want us in a group with Wales and SA at the next RWC?

Some people have been waiting in the long grass for Schmidt to slip up. Its kinda sad to be honest. I would tend to discount those opinions anyway. There are Irish people out there who do not want him to be a success bizarre as that is.

Statistically New Zealand kicked more than us at the world cup. However, no one notices nor cares when it comes to NZ because they are a lot better when it comes to ball in hand.

[Sin é]

Guns, I must go and set up a Schmidt clock

The comments below this piece could be transcripted with a name change from Kidney to Schmidt.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/05/22/the-kidney-clock/

[wolfball]

Again, people are acting like certain facts don't exist:

1. Ranking our attackng players as if they are all available to play and not injured. McCloskey is only one in that list who can feel hard done by. The rest haven't shown it in europe, are injured, or just back from injury.

2. That we are playing like we did the last two seasons. WE ARE CLEARLY NOT. We are barely kicking. We go through huge numbers of passes, and we are less effective. We are losing. The weakest parts of our game right now I believe are:
lack of kicking as a weapon
passive defence
poor breakdown play
lack of offloads
too much one out runners into contact


3. Ranking points - there is no way we can sacrifice games to build experience and build to the next world cup this season, as we are too low in the rankings as it is, with massive SH games all year ahead. Do people really want us in a group with Wales and SA at the next RWC?[/quote]

Ranking points i think are a poor excuse for not building asquad. To win a world cup you need asquad of players good enough. No point tbeing in an easier group if your relying on 15 men to stay fit. I would rather have Wales and SA in our group and a squad of players good enough to beat them both,

Of course we need to build a squad... have you noticed the average caps of the last two teams we have put out? It looks like we are rebuilding to me, in a year of massive experience lost through retirement and injury. And yet we still need to maintain our place. Its all very well to say a squad to beat two top level teams in 4 years, but how do we know if we will have the players then to do any better? We don't, so we should make our future RWC as easy as possible. I don't understand the mentality that says build for the RWC by throwing out caps now, but wait, also, ignore RWC ranking this year. Those two things are contradictory. We either want to have proper goes at RWC or not. Even NZ would not want a group of SA+Wales with them. The ranking is crucial.

[rodders]

Again, people are acting like certain facts don't exist:

1. Ranking our attackng players as if they are all available to play and not injured. McCloskey is only one in that list who can feel hard done by. The rest haven't shown it in europe, are injured, or just back from injury.

In fairness I think Gilroy and Jackson can both feel hard done by, as well as McCloskey - they are all playing considerably better rugby than a number of guys selected ahead of them.

What we essentially have is guys playing poorly for their provinces producing the same for Ireland and guys who are on fire, left out on the periphery which doesn't look good for Joe,

[LordDowlais]

Yoann Maestri has escaped a citing for his cheap shot on Sexton, how the frig has he gotten away with that ? It's a farce, I have seen longer sentences for less. Also the news coming out of the irish camp is that Sexton suffered from whiplash in that game. I do not know how long that would keep him out for.

[carpet baboon]

I don't want a group of "death" either. But can you honestly say that McFadden on the bench was a better option than gilroy? Or Zebo? Will McFadden be around the squad in 2019?.
And on the subject of McFadden I remember several years ago in a Churchill cup game against England. He absolutely destroyed them along with Felix Jones. Then what? Little recognition, shunted around the back line and a talent wasted, all because we were scared to change the first 15

[marty2086]

Of course we need to build a squad... have you noticed the average caps of the last two teams we have put out? It looks like we are rebuilding to me, in a year of massive experience lost through retirement and injury. And yet we still need to maintain our place. Its all very well to say a squad to beat two top level teams in 4 years, but how do we know if we will have the players then to do any better? We don't, so we should make our future RWC as easy as possible. I don't understand the mentality that says build for the RWC by throwing out caps now, but wait, also, ignore RWC ranking this year. Those two things are contradictory. We either want to have proper goes at RWC or not. Even NZ would not want a group of SA+Wales with them. The ranking is crucial.

It seems we are failing on all accounts though, players are seemingly only coming in when injury forces the issue and the results and performances so far aren't encouraging so it could all end up with a tough group and inexperienced squad

[marty2086]

Yoann Maestri has escaped a citing for his cheap shot on Sexton, how the frig has he gotten away with that ? It's a farce, I have seen longer sentences for less. Also the news coming out of the irish camp is that Sexton suffered from whiplash in that game. I do not know how long that would keep him out for.

Apparently not a red card offence according to the citing commissioner yet SOB was banned for his punch on Pape despite being incorrectly cited

Think they need new citing commissioners for the France Ireland games

[RubyGuby]

Sexton will be fine for the England game - SOB is out

Payne looks out so open door for Mr McCluskey to shine

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