Qualification for Europe

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

marty2086 wrote:

Are Cardiff working under different conditions than Ospreys or Scarlets?

Nope. Other than coaching cycle.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Are Cardiff working under different conditions than Ospreys or Scarlets?

Nope. Other than coaching cycle.

So the Ospreys and Scarlets can achieve a level of success and compete in the league under the same limits and Cardiff cant yet its the WRU who are at fault?

My maths may have been rusty last week but 2+2 there is equalling 5 according to you

marty2086 wrote:

So the Ospreys and Scarlets can achieve a level of success and compete in the league under the same limits and Cardiff cant yet its the WRU who are at fault?

My maths may have been rusty last week but 2+2 there is equalling 5 according to you

What level of success have the Os and Turks achieved? Bar the Os 11-12 amazing result of wining the PrO'12?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So the Ospreys and Scarlets can achieve a level of success and compete in the league under the same limits and Cardiff cant yet its the WRU who are at fault?

My maths may have been rusty last week but 2+2 there is equalling 5 according to you

What level of success have the Os and Turks achieved? Bar the Os 11-12 amazing result of wining the PrO'12?

Both have won the thing. Both have been in play-off. Neither have ended up with a stint in the Challenge Cup for being woeful in the league (Scarlets were ironically saved by the Blues once)

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So the Ospreys and Scarlets can achieve a level of success and compete in the league under the same limits and Cardiff cant yet its the WRU who are at fault?

My maths may have been rusty last week but 2+2 there is equalling 5 according to you

What level of success have the Os and Turks achieved? Bar the Os 11-12 amazing result of wining the PrO'12?

I already stated that, they are competing in the league to the extent that Ospreys are regulars in the play offs and Scarlets are one of the form teams this season in a league where apparently you believe things are in the favour of the Irish

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Both have won the thing.  Both have been in play-off.  Neither have ended up with a stint in the Challenge Cup for being woeful in the league (Scarlets were ironically saved by the Blues once)

And the Turks have never won the EDF, the Os have never won a European knock out game and neither has won a European trophy.

So, again, what's your point?

Ah, so lovely to see the Welsh eating their young once more.

Cardiff will achieve nothing until the lame excuses being trawled out here stop and they take a good hard look at themselves.
In same environment both Ospreys and Scarlets have produced decent sides who are competitive against Glasgow and the Irish.
Why are Cardiff so poor by comparison?

As to Connacht how much money do you think they spend - less than Cardiff I'll wager

I repeat Connacht have 1 foreign International - 8 caps for USA

Cardiff have:
1 Australian - 14 caps
1 New Zealander - 3 caps
1 USA player - 22 caps
1 Somoan - 6 caps
1 USA player - 29 caps
1 Italian - 17 caps
1 Tongan - 17 caps

108 caps total - why are these people not delivering ?
Bad recruitment, bad coaching - that is down to Cardiff no one else

I also repeat Buckley, Bealham, Marmion, Henshaw, O'Halloran, Healy have nothing to do with money just an excellent academy system

Cardiff could learn an awful lot from Connacht.
Hard work and good judgement go a long way.
Self pity is for losers

PhilBB wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Both have won the thing.  Both have been in play-off.  Neither have ended up with a stint in the Challenge Cup for being woeful in the league (Scarlets were ironically saved by the Blues once)

And the Turks have never won the EDF, the Os have never won a European knock out game and neither has won a European trophy.

So, again, what's your point?

The point is Cardiff are consistently inconsistent, their past success are nice but what is that doing for them now?

PhilBB wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Both have won the thing.  Both have been in play-off.  Neither have ended up with a stint in the Challenge Cup for being woeful in the league (Scarlets were ironically saved by the Blues once)

And the Turks have never won the EDF, the Os have never won a European knock out game and neither has won a European trophy.

So, again, what's your point?

Your question was "What level of success have the Os and Turks achieved? Bar the Os 11-12 amazing result of wining the PrO'12?'" I answered it for you, maybe if you can not understand a straight answer you should not ask questions.

Did you know that when the Blues won the Challenge Cup, the Ospreys had never been bad enough to be entered for it? They had always qualified for the HEC (not a massive achievement in itself), but after they introduced the drop off from the HEC to the ACC quarters, the Ospreys made the QF each year, at least up until the Blues won it.

So getting to the quarter finals of the HEC is more of an achievement than winning the ACC, since you have to do worse to be in it at all.

geoff999rugby wrote:Cardiff will achieve nothing until the lame excuses being trawled out here stop and they take a good hard look at themselves.
In same environment both Ospreys and Scarlets have produced decent sides who are competitive against Glasgow and the Irish.
Why are Cardiff so poor by comparison?

As to Connacht how much money do you think they spend - less than Cardiff I'll wager

I repeat Connacht have 1 foreign International - 8 caps for USA

Cardiff have:
1 Australian - 14 caps
1 New Zealander - 3 caps
1 USA player - 22 caps
1 Somoan - 6 caps
1 USA player - 29 caps
1 Italian - 17 caps
1 Tongan - 17 caps

108 caps total - why are these people not delivering ?
Bad recruitment, bad coaching - that is down to Cardiff no one else

I also repeat Buckley, Bealham, Marmion, Henshaw, O'Halloran, Healy have nothing to do with money just an excellent academy system

Cardiff could learn an awful lot from Connacht.
Hard work and good judgement go a long way.
Self pity is for losers

Do you really want to play billy big balls on talent production? Cardiff's loss to the national cause is significantly greater than Connacht's, of course. If you want to look at 'an excellent academy system' then let's play 'how many British Lions has it produced', shall we?

Sure, many problems are internally caused at Cardiff and this is the first season in years that we have a decent coaching team, but the point of Connacht's improvement is that it is on the back of IRFU money. Not their own.

marty2086 wrote:

The point is Cardiff are consistently inconsistent, their past success are nice but what is that doing for them now?

Setting a level of expectation for Wilson to reach.

HammerofThunor wrote:Did you know that when the Blues won the Challenge Cup, the Ospreys had never been bad enough to be entered for it?  They had always qualified for the HEC (not a massive achievement in itself), but after they introduced the drop off from the HEC to the ACC quarters, the Ospreys made the QF each year, at least up until the Blues won it.

So getting to the quarter finals of the HEC is more of an achievement than winning the ACC, since you have to do worse to be in it at all.

Yeah, beating Toulon in Marseilles is a significantly worse achievement than losing to Biarritz

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The point is Cardiff are consistently inconsistent, their past success are nice but what is that doing for them now?

Setting a level of expectation for Wilson to reach.

Not asking for much, maybe they should aim a little lower like trying to get a win in Italy

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Your question was "What level of success have the Os and Turks achieved? Bar the Os 11-12 amazing result of wining the PrO'12?'"  I answered it for you, maybe if you can not understand a straight answer you should not ask questions.

Yes, sorry mate, I mistook your post for one from Belfast's answer to Carol Vorderman.

Phil the difference is Connachts academy is producing results, on the pitch,- Cardiffs is not.

Of course Cardiff are historically a bigger team but in the here and now they are the biggest underachievers in the current Pro12, given their resources. Connacht have succeeded inspite of, by some distance, the worst injury list of any Pro12 team.

marty2086 wrote:

Not asking for much, maybe they should aim a little lower like trying to get a win in Italy

Our blokes can't win a game that is further away than one train stop, Carol.

It's as pathetic as it is bizarre.

geoff999rugby wrote:Phil the difference is Connachts academy is producing results, on the pitch,- Cardiffs is not.

Of course Cardiff are historically a bigger team but in the here and now they are the biggest underachievers in the current Pro12, given their resources. Connacht have succeeded inspite of, by some distance, the worst injury list of any Pro12 team.

No, Geoff.

The difference is that Cardiff's academy is producing results on international pitches. Connacht's isn't. Connacht doesn't lose the volume of players to 'Team Wales'. Hence your previous claims are misplaced.

The 'resources' of Welsh teams put them well beneath those IRFU branches.

geoff999rugby wrote: Cardiff will achieve nothing until the lame excuses being trawled out here stop and they take a good hard look at themselves.

So for Cardiff to get back to winning ways their fans will have to stop making excuses via V2? Will that blueprint for success also work for the Dragons? (Genuine question).

PhilBB wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Your question was "What level of success have the Os and Turks achieved? Bar the Os 11-12 amazing result of wining the PrO'12?'"  I answered it for you, maybe if you can not understand a straight answer you should not ask questions.

Yes, sorry mate, I mistook your post for one from Belfast's answer to Carol Vorderman.

Coming from Wales answer to Donald Trump that's quite amusing

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Not asking for much, maybe they should aim a little lower like trying to get a win in Italy

Our blokes can't win a game that is further away than one train stop, Carol.

It's as pathetic as it is bizarre.

And somehow the WRU are holding them back?

marty2086 wrote:

Coming from Wales answer to Donald Trump that's quite amusing

What an odd comparison.

marty2086 wrote:

And somehow the WRU are holding them back?

Held, past tense. The new board don't even bother looking at the Roger Services Agreement.

Hence, things are looking up.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Phil the difference is Connachts academy is producing results, on the pitch,- Cardiffs is not.

Of course Cardiff are historically a bigger team but in the here and now they are the biggest underachievers in the current Pro12, given their resources. Connacht have succeeded inspite of, by some distance, the worst injury list of any Pro12 team.

No, Geoff.

The difference is that Cardiff's academy is producing results on international pitches. Connacht's isn't. Connacht doesn't lose the volume of players to 'Team Wales'. Hence your previous claims are misplaced.

The 'resources' of Welsh teams put them well beneath those IRFU branches.

At the turn of the year Connacht had 23 players out injured, Leinster lost about the same number to the RWC and this is with tighter NIQ than the regions have NWQ and in the past losing the same numbers were able to not just compete but succeed on TWO fronts

marty2086 wrote:
At the turn of the year Connacht had 23 players out injured, Leinster lost about the same number to the RWC and this is with tighter NIQ than the regions have NWQ and in the past losing the same numbers were able to not just compete but succeed on TWO fronts

Yes, I'm not sure of the relevance of this unless you're undoing your own argument by showing the resources spent on such large squads.

Again can I ask how many of Connacht's 23 players were first choice? Or is the Irish exaggerating their injuries once again....

The relevance is Connacht have lost, at least, as many players, for whatever reason, as Cardiff.
Connacht lost 23 out of a squad of 40 and were forced to play Academy kids to make up the numbers.

As to squad size - Cardiff squad is 47, Connacht is 40.
Cardiff squad has far more full internationals so I simply cant see how Connacht have a higher wage bill.

geoff999rugby wrote:The relevance is Connacht have lost, at least, as many players, for whatever reason, as Cardiff.
Connacht lost 23 out of a squad of 40 and were forced to play Academy kids to make up the numbers.

As to squad size - Cardiff squad is 47, Connacht is 40.
Cardiff squad has far more full internationals so I simply cant see how Connacht have a higher wage bill.

If only Connacht had to publish it, eh?

Wouldn't that be amazing.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
At the turn of the year Connacht had 23 players out injured, Leinster lost about the same number to the RWC and this is with tighter NIQ than the regions have NWQ and in the past losing the same numbers were able to not just compete but succeed on TWO fronts

Yes, I'm not sure of the relevance of this unless you're undoing your own argument by showing the resources spent on such large squads.

During their injury crisis Connacht relied on their academy players and came through, Leinster do the same during international windows with the likes of Nacewa etc to add experience and guile to guide the younger players so these resources you talk off are not huge just well used

geoff999rugby wrote:
As to squad size - Cardiff squad is 47, Connacht is 40.

There are 59 players listed on the website.

1 is on loan at the Turks.

14 of them are of Academy age.

6 more are either Wales 7s players or club players running down a contract.

PhilBB wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Did you know that when the Blues won the Challenge Cup, the Ospreys had never been bad enough to be entered for it?  They had always qualified for the HEC (not a massive achievement in itself), but after they introduced the drop off from the HEC to the ACC quarters, the Ospreys made the QF each year, at least up until the Blues won it.

So getting to the quarter finals of the HEC is more of an achievement than winning the ACC, since you have to do worse to be in it at all.

Yeah, beating Toulon in Marseilles is a significantly worse achievement than losing to Biarritz

It's the equivalent of claiming that winning the English championship is more of an achievement than doing ANYTHING in the premiership. The simple fact is that the Ospreys could not have done what Cardiff Blues did because they weren't bad enough. That is, unfortunately, an undeniable truth.

marty2086 wrote:
During their injury crisis Connacht relied on their academy players and came through, Leinster do the same during international windows with the likes of Nacewa etc to add experience and guile to guide the younger players so these resources you talk off are not huge just well used

You make it sound like using Academy players is something only the Irish do. Why are you writing in that manner?

HammerofThunor wrote: The simple fact is that the Ospreys could not have done what Cardiff Blues did because they weren't bad enough.  That is, unfortunately, an undeniable truth.

It is.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The relevance is Connacht have lost, at least, as many players, for whatever reason, as Cardiff.
Connacht lost 23 out of a squad of 40 and were forced to play Academy kids to make up the numbers.

As to squad size - Cardiff squad is 47, Connacht is 40.
Cardiff squad has far more full internationals so I simply cant see how Connacht have a higher wage bill.

If only Connacht had to publish it, eh?

Wouldn't that be amazing.

As you have pointed out, Cardiff have far more internationals simple logic would say that that would lead to a higher wage bill but then again my maths aren't the best

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
During their injury crisis Connacht relied on their academy players and came through, Leinster do the same during international windows with the likes of Nacewa etc to add experience and guile to guide the younger players so these resources you talk off are not huge just well used

You make it sound like using Academy players is something only the Irish do. Why are you writing in that manner?

Very few teams have to field the number that Connacht had to over Christmas and New Years, that's why

Back in December
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connachts-casualty-list-at-crisis-point-34283907.html

At one point 25 players were out and they couldn't fill the bench for the away game against Newcastle.

At that point I think the list was.

McCartney, Buckley, JP Cooney, Browne, Qualter, Roux, Fox-Matamua, Heenan, Masterson, McKeon, John Cooney, Finn, Henshaw, Pewhairangi, Carr, Poolman and Leader Loughney, Muldoon, Marmion, Porter, Ronaldson and Aki

Some positions Connacht swap players quite regularly but the ones in bold would start a lot of Connachts games.

marty2086 wrote:
As you have pointed out, Cardiff have far more internationals simple logic would say that that would lead to a higher wage bill but then again my maths aren't the best

Yes, that would be simple as it would negate the lowest fee earners.

Remember that Cardiff operate to a salary cap.

Remind what the IRFU salary cap is again, please.

marty2086 wrote:
Very few teams have to field the number that Connacht had to over Christmas and New Years, that's why

So, by 'very few' you've admitted that Connacht are not unique.

How many did they use?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The relevance is Connacht have lost, at least, as many players, for whatever reason, as Cardiff.
Connacht lost 23 out of a squad of 40 and were forced to play Academy kids to make up the numbers.

As to squad size - Cardiff squad is 47, Connacht is 40.
Cardiff squad has far more full internationals so I simply cant see how Connacht have a higher wage bill.

If only Connacht had to publish it, eh?

Wouldn't that be amazing.

As you have pointed out, Cardiff have far more internationals simple logic would say that that would lead to a higher wage bill but then again my maths aren't the best

Not necessarily. The players at the Blues may prefer to stay with their home club and accept a lower wage than they could get from elsewhere. For reasons of interrupting their development (personal opinion, it takes about 1-2 years to get back on track, and then potentially need to move again). International is not an equal term either. If you played for Moldova when they sent out a weakened side, doesn't demand to same wage as a guy not good to knock McCaw out of the All Blacks 7 shirt (two random examples, no idea who is in either squad). There isn't really a good way of estimating salaries other than looking at expenditure. One of the worst ways is listening to agents who will undoubtedly inflate their clients worth.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
As you have pointed out, Cardiff have far more internationals simple logic would say that that would lead to a higher wage bill but then again my maths aren't the best

Yes, that would be simple as it would negate the lowest fee earners.

Remember that Cardiff operate to a salary cap.

Remind what the IRFU salary cap is again, please.

The wage cap applies to European squads not the Pro12 and considering the other regulations are ignored why should they adhere to the salary cap?

Kingshu wrote:Back in December
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connachts-casualty-list-at-crisis-point-34283907.html

At one point 25 players were out and they couldn't fill the bench for the away game against Newcastle.

At that point I think the list was.

McCartney, Buckley, JP Cooney, Browne, Qualter, Roux, Fox-Matamua, Heenan, Masterson, McKeon, John Cooney, Finn, Henshaw, Pewhairangi, Carr, Poolman and Leader Loughney, Muldoon, Marmion, Porter, Ronaldson and Aki

Some positions Connacht swap players quite regularly but the ones in bold would start a lot of Connachts games.

Thanks. I remember that game and was quite surprised at the score. I don't remember those absentees being out long-term though.
For me Connacht are a revelation. Playing some eye-catching rugby and coming from obscurity to top the league. I would like my own team to aspire to that, but we won't get a helping hand any time soon.

marty2086 wrote:
The wage cap applies to European squads not the Pro12 and considering the other regulations are ignored why should they adhere to the salary cap?

Sorry, what 'other regulations'?

HammerofThunor wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The relevance is Connacht have lost, at least, as many players, for whatever reason, as Cardiff.
Connacht lost 23 out of a squad of 40 and were forced to play Academy kids to make up the numbers.

As to squad size - Cardiff squad is 47, Connacht is 40.
Cardiff squad has far more full internationals so I simply cant see how Connacht have a higher wage bill.

If only Connacht had to publish it, eh?

Wouldn't that be amazing.

As you have pointed out, Cardiff have far more internationals simple logic would say that that would lead to a higher wage bill but then again my maths aren't the best

Not necessarily.  The players at the Blues may prefer to stay with their home club and accept a lower wage than they could get from elsewhere.  For reasons of interrupting their development (personal opinion, it takes about 1-2 years to get back on track, and then potentially need to move again). International is not an equal term either.  If you played for Moldova when they sent out a weakened side, doesn't demand to same wage as a guy not good to knock McCaw out of the All Blacks 7 shirt (two random examples, no idea who is in either squad).  There isn't really a good way of estimating salaries other than looking at expenditure. One of the worst ways is listening to agents who will undoubtedly inflate their clients worth.

Looking at expenditure isn't very reliable either when club owners are paying using means that won't be recorded.

The thing about Welsh internationals playing for Cardiff is that they don't play for Moldova, and will be on a decent wage.

Don't now if Cardiff get less revenue than Connacht. I doubt it, but it does seem a pathetic argument.

Munchkin wrote:

Looking at expenditure isn't very reliable either when club owners are paying using means that won't be recorded.

The thing about Welsh internationals playing for Cardiff is that they don't play for Moldova, and will be on a decent wage.

Don't now if Cardiff get less revenue than Connacht. I doubt it, but it does seem a pathetic argument.

What is being paid that won't be recorded?

Why is it a 'pathetic argument' if Connacht get more than Cardiff, but when it comes to Toulon and Racing etc. then it's ok for the Irish to moan about 'buying titles'?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Looking at expenditure isn't very reliable either when club owners are paying using means that won't be recorded.

The thing about Welsh internationals playing for Cardiff is that they don't play for Moldova, and will be on a decent wage.

Don't now if Cardiff get less revenue than Connacht. I doubt it, but it does seem a pathetic argument.

What is being paid that won't be recorded?

Why is it a 'pathetic argument' if Connacht get more than Cardiff, but when it comes to Toulon and Racing etc. then it's ok for the Irish to moan about 'buying titles'?

1) You do know there was a big AP fallout recently over salary cap, and players being paid outside of AP rules?

2) It's pathetic because it's you living in your fantasy land, feeding your own obsession, amd making things up as you go along.

Hope that's helps  

Munchkin wrote:

1) You do know there was a big AP fallout recently over salary cap, and players being paid outside of AP rules?

2) It's pathetic because it's you living in your fantasy land, feeding your own obsession, amd making things up as you go along.

Hope that's helps  

1. I know that no case could be proven that any salary cap regulation was breached.

2. Nothing is being made up, but I can understand why you'd want to avoid the question.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

1) You do know there was a big AP fallout recently over salary cap, and players being paid outside of AP rules?

2) It's pathetic because it's you living in your fantasy land, feeding your own obsession, amd making things up as you go along.

Hope that's helps  

1. I know that no case could be proven that any salary cap regulation was breached.

2. Nothing is being made up, but I can understand why you'd want to avoid the question.

1 yes things were proven, but repeated legal threats stopped it being published.

carpet baboon wrote:

1 yes things were proven, but repeated legal threats stopped it being published.

You sure? I mean, if there was a proven breach then no legal threat would have been valid.

I know what I know and I'm happy with my statement.