Qualification for Europe

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

So what was your comment about that it has been confirmed they're pushing about above?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what was your comment about that it has been confirmed they're pushing about above?

It was exactly as it was written.

Any chance of an answer to my question?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I'm not running from anything as I said the regions could rely on their owners to fund the players wages but they chose not to, that's just one of a number of options available to them as they have numerous other ways of generating capital like every other business.

Maybe one day you'll be brave and in doing so be less arrogant and patronising and open up to the possibility that you don't know everything and that you may be wrong on occasions

WTF are you on about?

The businesses fund the player wages. They are not 'all paid by the WRU'.

This discussion was about the NDC. I pointed out that this is the only mechanism the WRU has to get near to the market rate for player access that is allowed by the covenants. You claimed that there was another way. You've yet to describe it.

I know why you've yet to describe it - because there is no other way.

After I've unravelled so many of your utterly false claims on the financing of rugby in both Wales and Ireland, that final sentence is one of the most pitifully arrogant sentences I've ever read.

Mystic Phil, you're so full of hot air and manure

Theres no other way? Businesses have many ways of raising capital, yes businesses pay the wages but that does not necessarily fund them see Saracens and Toulon as examples and have you not been complaining that the provinces don't fund themselves? Seems like you can't decide what stand you want to take

Regarding the NDCs, the regions didn't need to go that route they could have went another route but typical of you to move the goalposts and claim your right and everyone else is wrong. As I said the regions owners could have put more money in to finance higher wages to avoid the NDCs, they didn't. They could have sold shares or even bonds like Wasps did last year these options would have raised finance for the clubs but then again there is no other way and I don't know what Im talking about because Phil is always right!

marty2086 wrote:
Mystic Phil, you're so full of hot air and manure

Theres no other way? Businesses have many ways of raising capital, yes businesses pay the wages but that does not necessarily fund them see Saracens and Toulon as examples and have you not been complaining that the provinces don't fund themselves? Seems like you can't decide what stand you want to take

Regarding the NDCs, the regions didn't need to go that route they could have went another route but typical of you to move the goalposts and claim your right and everyone else is wrong. As I said the regions owners could have put more money in to finance higher wages to avoid the NDCs, they didn't. They could have sold shares or even bonds like Wasps did last year these options would have raised finance for the clubs but then again there is no other way and I don't know what Im talking about because Phil is always right!

Why are you flip flopping so badly?

What other route could PRW have gone to get the WRU to pay closer to the market rate for player access? Please do tell.

The comment wasn't about PRW raising its own revenue, which it does, but the WRU paying up to the market rate. You seem to be conflating the two, rather badly.

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
BT have already bought access to the vast majority of subscribers with their AP deal so why on earth would they or anyone else spend roughly double what they spend now to reach a market that has minimal "sponsorship potential"?

Perhaps the new League could be sited in cloud cuckoo land where it would maximise it's chance of success?

Confirmed again this weekend that BT Sport are pushing for this. The plan is for a conference set up with the 6N pushed to the end of the season.

Guess which Union(s) is holding it up?

The only reason BT want the 6Ns pushed to end of season is because they don't show international rugby so they won't have a scheduling problem with Champs League and run-in of Premiership. It would also suit them to have finals of Chumps Cup earlier to fill after Xmas sporting void.

Only Unions who would want this change are in the pockets of BT Sport (SRU & perhaps WRU). Thank God the IRFU isn't in their pocket.

Sin é wrote:

The only reason BT want the 6Ns pushed to end of season is because they don't show international rugby so they won't have a scheduling problem with Champs League and run-in of Premiership. It would also suit them to have finals of Chumps Cup earlier to fill after Xmas sporting void.

Only Unions who would want this change are in the pockets of BT Sport (SRU & perhaps WRU). Thank God the IRFU isn't in their pocket.

In any logical system, the 6N would be played at the end of the season. It would allow players to peak their performance for the big event.

That it is played at this time of the year is solely because of what happened in the amateur era.

Here's hoping that much of this goes ahead without the IRFU. It's time to cut them out. They were forced to fold for the already more lucrative EPRC and they even tried to block that.

They really are relics to a rugby past that is no longer relevant.

Oh, and please let me know how the RFU are in the pockets of BT Sport. I'd love to read that one.

Ok so what has happened is this.
A couple of people that may or may not have links to clubs in the PRL have a chat with some of there pals at BT about this B&I league, mention a few sponsors they have heard are interested things like that.
The BT guys then go round d the various different clubs they have sponsorship links with and rather indiscreetly mention this idea, with the intention of getting it out to the fans.
This allows them two things, 1 they can report back to there PRLpals about the feelings of owners and unions and 2 get the rumour out to the fans so they can judge popular opinion.
Now if owners and unions are not interested,well it was never official just an ideas session, but, and it's a big but, if they sense the a few clubs are biting and fans are interested and can get enough talking it up, well then they can say there doing it for the fans, and in run the PRL as white nights to give the fans what they really want, minus union controller of course.
One step closer to all professional rugby out of union control.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Mystic Phil, you're so full of hot air and manure

Theres no other way? Businesses have many ways of raising capital, yes businesses pay the wages but that does not necessarily fund them see Saracens and Toulon as examples and have you not been complaining that the provinces don't fund themselves? Seems like you can't decide what stand you want to take

Regarding the NDCs, the regions didn't need to go that route they could have went another route but typical of you to move the goalposts and claim your right and everyone else is wrong. As I said the regions owners could have put more money in to finance higher wages to avoid the NDCs, they didn't. They could have sold shares or even bonds like Wasps did last year these options would have raised finance for the clubs but then again there is no other way and I don't know what Im talking about because Phil is always right!

Why are you flip flopping so badly?

What other route could PRW have gone to get the WRU to pay closer to the market rate for player access? Please do tell.

The comment wasn't about PRW raising its own revenue, which it does, but the WRU paying up to the market rate. You seem to be conflating the two, rather badly.

Please show me where Ive flip flopped and I never made a comment about the WRU paying the market rate what I said the regions didn't have to go into business with the WRU and could have chosen another way but you know that

marty2086 wrote:

Please show me where Ive flip flopped and I never made a comment about the WRU paying the market rate what I said the regions didn't have to go into business with the WRU and could have chosen another way but you know that

The flip flopping comes from your original claim of another WRU mechanism bar NDC. You flipped it to PRW not accepting the NDC.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what was your comment about that it has been confirmed they're pushing about above?

It was exactly as it was written.

Any chance of an answer to my question?

I think I misunderstood your comment, thought you were saying BT were pushing for a B&I league? If thats not the case my comment about that being strange is pointless anyway! I would say it was strange that a broadcaster would be pushing the men in charge for this as they're not the only player in town and risk losing everything or over extending themselves.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Please show me where Ive flip flopped and I never made a comment about the WRU paying the market rate what I said the regions didn't have to go into business with the WRU and could have chosen another way but you know that

The flip flopping comes from your original claim of another WRU mechanism bar NDC. You flipped it to PRW not accepting the NDC.

Please show me this because I did no such thing

carpet baboon wrote:Ok so what has happened is this.
A couple of people that may or may not have links to clubs in the PRL have a chat with some of there pals at BT about this B&I league, mention a few sponsors they have heard are interested things like that.
The BT guys then go round d the various different clubs they have sponsorship links with and rather indiscreetly mention this idea, with the intention of getting it out to the fans.
This allows them two things, 1 they can report back to there PRLpals about the feelings of owners and unions and 2 get the rumour out to the fans so they can judge popular opinion.
Now if owners and unions are not interested,well it was never official just an ideas session, but, and it's a big but, if they sense the a few clubs are biting and fans are interested and can get enough talking it up, well then they can say there doing it for the fans, and in run the PRL as white nights to give the fans what they really want, minus union controller of course.
One step closer to all professional rugby out of union control.

Yes, but we're months on from that stage.

But your final sentence is right. And it can't come quickly enough.

Ok phill what's world rugby's view on non union controlled international teams

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Please show me where Ive flip flopped and I never made a comment about the WRU paying the market rate what I said the regions didn't have to go into business with the WRU and could have chosen another way but you know that

The flip flopping comes from your original claim of another WRU mechanism bar NDC. You flipped it to PRW not accepting the NDC.

Please show me this because I did no such thing

Your post of 11:07 on Friday, replying to mine of 10:34, detailed on the previous page.

carpet baboon wrote:Ok phill what's world rugby's view on non union controlled international teams

I'd imagine that those who own the players as assets would be rather against it, but that's just me guessing.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Please show me where Ive flip flopped and I never made a comment about the WRU paying the market rate what I said the regions didn't have to go into business with the WRU and could have chosen another way but you know that

The flip flopping comes from your original claim of another WRU mechanism bar NDC. You flipped it to PRW not accepting the NDC.

Please show me this because I did no such thing

Your post of 11:07 on Friday, replying to mine of 10:34, detailed on the previous page.

No I said show me, you have something to hide from reposting it here? Your able to repost other quotes why not this one?

Ever thought that this interest in a B&I league is just a bargaining tool to get more control over there own domestic game? And let's not think about the years of litigation by the teams left outside this ring fenced utopia.

marty2086 wrote:

No I said show me, you have something to hide from reposting it here? Your able to repost other quotes why not this one?

This is as much fun as 17+7=23

I wrote: "I'm no fan of the NDC but it is the only mechanism that allows for the deficit in the market rate for player access to be made up under the existing Barclays covenants.

That finance house takes out 6 times more REGARDLESS OF SUCCESS than it puts in. That's a bail out."

You replied: "No its not the only mechanism its the chosen mechanism theres a difference, you can forgive the WRU helping to sustain the regions but not the IRFU pumping money into the provinces. Its just bitterness and jealousy from an angry little man"

I wrote 'mechanism' and you referred to it.

Man up, please.

carpet baboon wrote:Ever thought that this interest in a B&I league is just a bargaining tool to get more control over there own domestic game? And let's not think about the years of litigation by the teams left outside this ring fenced utopia.

Two things:

1) they don't need any more control over their own domestic game.
2) litigation can only be brought for loss of earnings under a contract, it can't be brought for not being allowed into a competition.

Try again, baboon.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No I said show me, you have something to hide from reposting it here? Your able to repost other quotes why not this one?

This is as much fun as 17+7=23

I wrote: "I'm no fan of the NDC but it is the only mechanism that allows for the deficit in the market rate for player access to be made up under the existing Barclays covenants.

That finance house takes out 6 times more REGARDLESS OF SUCCESS than it puts in. That's a bail out."

You replied: "No its not the only mechanism its the chosen mechanism theres a difference, you can forgive the WRU helping to sustain the regions but not the IRFU pumping money into the provinces. Its just bitterness and jealousy from an angry little man"

I wrote 'mechanism' and you referred to it.

Man up, please.

Really?

You ignored this quote 'Its no different than Wales and the NDC, the regions are taking advantage of funds that don't belong to them' or this 'As the regions are privately owned they have other sources of income available to them like Saracens, Bath and Toulon have done but the WRU is the most sensible and logical source for all parties'

So I was clearly talking about the whole thing not the WRU so no flip flopping involved chump

But if your ego needs to believe otherwise you keep going

What is this conference thing about then Phil?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is this conference thing about then Phil?

An option on the table

What is it though?

Phil yes I am a Baboon and proud of it. Does it hurt your feelings that maybe someone knows a lot more about this than you? And that you have been spoon fed information but only the information they want you to have?
Enjoy your day phill

marty2086 wrote:

Really?

You ignored this quote 'Its no different than Wales and the NDC, the regions are taking advantage of funds that don't belong to them' or this 'As the regions are privately owned they have other sources of income available to them like Saracens, Bath and Toulon have done but the WRU is the most sensible and logical source for all parties'

So I was clearly talking about the whole thing not the WRU so no flip flopping involved chump

But if your ego needs to believe otherwise you keep going

That wouldn't get passed a Key Stage 2 assessment, let alone an adult. That's a pathetic wriggle.

The 'funds that don't belong to them' is addressed by the NDC as the mechanism of payment to get close to the market rate for player access which, of course, IS the money that is owed to PRW.

By repeating the word mechanism, you've continued with that line of its usage only for you to soon realise that you're clueless on company structure and finance (Ulster Rugby ltd, haha).

If you dropped the excitable puppy / stroppy teenager act, you might actually learn something without the need to be shamed first for your ignorance

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is it though?

An option on the table.

I'm guessing that you won't answer the question asked of you. Funny that.

carpet baboon wrote:Phil yes I am a Baboon and proud of it. Does it hurt your feelings that maybe someone knows a lot more about this than you? And that you have been spoon fed information but only the information they want you to have?
Enjoy your day phill

I'm sure lots of people know much more about this than do I. So, no, it doesn't hurt my feelings.

Enjoy your Stockholm Syndrome day, baboon.

But what is that option exactly? Which question haven't i answered?

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Phil yes I am a Baboon and proud of it. Does it hurt your feelings that maybe someone knows a lot more about this than you? And that you have been spoon fed information but only the information they want you to have?
Enjoy your day phill

I'm sure lots of people know much more about this than do I. So, no, it doesn't hurt my feelings.

Enjoy your Stockholm Syndrome day, baboon.

Awww now Phil no need to make a joke about a mental illness, that's abit crass isn't it.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only reason BT want the 6Ns pushed to end of season is because they don't show international rugby so they won't have a scheduling problem with Champs League and run-in of Premiership. It would also suit them to have finals of Chumps Cup earlier to fill after Xmas sporting void.

Only Unions who would want this change are in the pockets of BT Sport (SRU & perhaps WRU). Thank God the IRFU isn't in their pocket.

In any logical system, the 6N would be played at the end of the season. It would allow players to peak their performance for the big event.

That it is played at this time of the year is solely because of what happened in the amateur era.

Here's hoping that much of this goes ahead without the IRFU. It's time to cut them out. They were forced to fold for the already more lucrative EPRC and they even tried to block that.

They really are relics to a rugby past that is no longer relevant.

Oh, and please let me know how the RFU are in the pockets of BT Sport. I'd love to read that one.

Nope. The reason why the 6Ns continues to be held at the beginning of Feb is to facilitate TV because there is no other major sporting events taking place then. That isn't going to change because of the very lucractive TV deal that props up all 6Ns Unions (including the RFU).

The RFU are in the pockets of BT sport because they are in the pockets of the PRL.

Any figures on how lucrative the EPRC actually is? Have they published accounts for last year yet?

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
And what fan does?   You think you know where everything comes from and goes in the regions???

On a macro level, yes, I do. Why? Because it's transparent and in the public domain.

Welcome to rugby outside of the cosseted Blazer ruined nonsense that you have to put up with.

Have exactly have blazzers ruined Irish rugby compared to the Welsh? What have we had to "put up with"? Winning trophies?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Really?

You ignored this quote 'Its no different than Wales and the NDC, the regions are taking advantage of funds that don't belong to them' or this 'As the regions are privately owned they have other sources of income available to them like Saracens, Bath and Toulon have done but the WRU is the most sensible and logical source for all parties'

So I was clearly talking about the whole thing not the WRU so no flip flopping involved chump

But if your ego needs to believe otherwise you keep going

That wouldn't get passed a Key Stage 2 assessment, let alone an adult. That's a pathetic wriggle.

The 'funds that don't belong to them' is addressed by the NDC as the mechanism of payment to get close to the market rate for player access which, of course, IS the money that is owed to PRW.

By repeating the word mechanism, you've continued with that line of its usage only for you to soon realise that you're clueless on company structure and finance (Ulster Rugby ltd, haha).

If you dropped the excitable puppy / stroppy teenager act, you might actually learn something without the need to be shamed first for your ignorance

And you're the one to teach me?

No wriggling needed on this end it does seem to be what you are doing though as you are applying separate standards to different unions. IRFU funding the provinces=a disgrace WRU funding NDCs=whats owed to them

Seems its you who are ignorant along with condescending and arrogant

Sin é wrote:
Nope. The reason why the 6Ns continues to be held at the beginning of Feb is to facilitate TV because there is no other major sporting events taking place then. That isn't going to change because of the very lucractive TV deal that props up all 6Ns Unions (including the RFU).

The RFU are in the pockets of BT sport because they are in the pockets of the PRL.

Any figures on how lucrative the EPRC actually is? Have they published accounts for last year yet?

It would change with a more lucrative TV deal that encouraged it to move, by your own logic. Agreed?

I don't understand how the hugely profitable RFU is in the pockets of PRL. Could you explain that one to me, please?

No idea on the accounts of EPRC, sorry, but I do enjoy the Irish cynicism towards unknown accounts.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Have exactly have blazzers ruined Irish rugby compared to the Welsh? What have we had to "put up with"? Winning trophies?

Oh, you're right there. Our Chief Blazer properly tried to ruin Welsh rugby. Thankfully, he failed.

Meanwhile, your team is held back from its full potential whilst IRFU blazers block progress, as they tried to do (and thankfully failed) with EPRC

marty2086 wrote:

And you're the one to teach me?

No wriggling needed on this end it does seem to be what you are doing though as you are applying separate standards to different unions. IRFU funding the provinces=a disgrace WRU funding NDCs=whats owed to them

Seems its you who are ignorant along with condescending and arrogant

I've clearly taught you plenty in the last week alone.

The IRFU payment to the provinces is well above the market rate for player access. It's also not a transparent payment, as is payment for player access. Those two reasons alone should educate you as to why I'm not applying separate standards.

So where is the ignorance there? Nowhere, is the answer.

If you weren't such a chippy clown who jumps in with bullpwp nonsense that's so easily disproved, you wouldn't feel the other party being condescending. What's happened regularly is that I make a comment, you write some factually incorrect drivel to try to disprove, I show you to be an idiot and then you moan that I'm arrogant. I'm only condescending because of your reaction to having a few home truths that you don't like the taste of.

Phil?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Phil?

Yes? Please look back to the question I asked of you. Be a star and answer it, so that we can progress, please.

71/2 if your enquiry is still about the format of the new B&I league think of it like the NFL, or super rugby mini leagues that feed into a playoff. It's not a new idea has been around for a good few years, and rehashed every time money men want to take more control.
The reason phill won't answer you about it is his informant hasn't given him any detauls

Which question? The questions you've asked me, I've replied to. You don't seem to want to elaborate on your conference idea though, why?

Would be odd if that were the case as I asked him about the B&I idea following on about confirmation and he said there hadn't been confirmation.

You see if I was in the middle of a deal to completely change the structure of NH rugby I would share this with a man who is known to enjoy his educating of people less well informed than himself. Sound business plan

carpet baboon wrote:71/2 if your enquiry is still about the format of the new B&I league think of it like the NFL, or super rugby mini leagues that feed into a playoff. It's not a new idea has been around for a good few years, and rehashed every time money men want to take more control.
The reason phill won't answer you about it is his informant hasn't given him any detauls

The details are only 'conference style', which I think I wrote earlier this morning.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which question? The questions you've asked me, I've replied to. You don't seem to want to elaborate on your conference idea though, why?

Did you answer the one about BT Sport? I've missed it, if so.

carpet baboon wrote:You see if I was in the middle of a deal to completely change the structure of NH rugby I would share this with a man who is known to enjoy his educating of people less well informed than himself. Sound business plan

Yeah, like I'm unique and this isn't well known in many rugby circles all over the land.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:71/2 if your enquiry is still about the format of the new B&I league think of it like the NFL, or super rugby mini leagues that feed into a playoff. It's not a new idea has been around for a good few years, and rehashed every time money men want to take more control.
The reason phill won't answer you about it is his informant hasn't given him any detauls

The details are only 'conference style', which I think I wrote earlier this morning.

Ooo conference style, was that a phone conference or face to face?

9.50am today. As I said I thought I misunderstood taking your confirmation of a conference as a B&I thing. You then went onto deny there was confirmation of a B&I push.

carpet baboon wrote:
Ooo conference style, was that a phone conference or face to face?

Loving the bitterness. It makes it all the more funny.

No 7&1/2 wrote:9.50am today. As I said I thought I misunderstood taking your confirmation of a conference as a B&I thing. You then went onto deny there was confirmation of a B&I push.

There's no confirmation of anything official. I thought that I had made that clear.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
Ooo conference style, was that a phone conference or face to face?

Loving the bitterness. It makes it all the more funny.

Why would I be bitter? You project a lot phill

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:9.50am today. As I said I thought I misunderstood taking your confirmation of a conference as a B&I thing. You then went onto deny there was confirmation of a B&I push.

There's no confirmation of anything official. I thought that I had made that clear.

Quite, but when you started with 'Confirmed again this weekend that BT Sport are pushing for this. The plan is for a conference set up with the 6N pushed to the end of the season.' you'll see where it gets confusing.

So there isn't any confirmation which is as expectd.