Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

Henry Slade is back in the 13 shirt for Exe against Newcastle tomorrow. Remarkable recovery and hopefully won't get broken again before the Oz tour.

I know you Ruby...well the  606 Ruby.
Thanks, I know you respect  Cornwall and England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I thought he'd left.....

Can people stop quoting him pls, I was quite enjoying not seeing his trolling these last few weeks.

I'd like to sincerely thank the person who reported the quoted post. I for one will sleep soundly tonight, safe in the knowledge that you are out there keeping me safe from such offensive material and being humble enough to do so behind your mask of anonymity, foregoing pubic recognition of your heroic deeds. You, sir, are a credit to the human race, though it's likely that you are in fact a being who lives on another planet.

gregortree wrote:I know you Ruby...well the  606 Ruby.
Thanks, I know you respect  Cornwall and England.

The thing is Greg, when you know someone you can have the banter and disagreements without the hassle etc. If someone like Beshocked bothered to look at my posts after England beat Wales in last years 6 Nations then he might see a different poster. Of course I do like to yank a few chains as well but isn't that what rugby banter is all about. In essence England bossed the last 6 Nations game in Cardiff for 75 minutes IMO - Tomorrow of course we'll batter feck out of you as the power machine finally starts to grind into action

Big semi-final for my boys on Sunday, in fact its the main game for me this weekend and the one I want to win most

RubyGuby wrote:Tomorrow of course we'll batter feck out of you as the power machine finally starts to grind into action

That's what we like to see, a sense of humour in the face of overwhelming odds BTW it's called a coach, or sometimes a bus. You Welsh boys need to keep up to speed on modern technology
All firmly tongue in cheek BTW, shouldn't really have to explain that but, you know...just in case, for the sake of others  

I think you need to continue to explain it Hooner until you have refined your technique then me and Greg can give you the ok to just post ad hoc without needing to explain yourself. I hope Ive explained that well enough for you

I might need some pointers though

Hoonercat wrote:I might need some pointers though

Fair enough - go back and read over my posts, Gregor's and Secret Fly's from 2009 - It will take a few months but you will begin to see a theme occur. Avoid Lost in Wales, Mikey, Beshocked and England'sGory as these are very sinister poster's who mean serious harm and offence and lack the subtlety that humour and occasional sarcastic banter can bring. In fact avoid at all costs.

RubyGuby wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I might need some pointers though

Fair enough - go back and read over my posts, Gregor's and Secret Fly's from 2009 - It will take a few months but you will begin to see a theme occur. Avoid Lost in Wales, Mikey, Beshocked and England'sGory as these are very sinister poster's who mean serious harm and offence and lack the subtlety that humour and occasional sarcastic banter can bring. In fact avoid at all costs.

RubyGuby wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I might need some pointers though

Fair enough - go back and read over my posts, Gregor's and Secret Fly's from 2009 - It will take a few months but you will begin to see a theme occur. Avoid Lost in Wales, Mikey, Beshocked and England'sGory as these are very sinister poster's who mean serious harm and offence and lack the subtlety that humour and occasional sarcastic banter can bring. In fact avoid at all costs.

No need, yourself and Gregor's transnational love-in is famous, the pair of you are a shining example to the rest of us    Good luck tomorrow, I reckon Wales are going to lick some ass

Ah Ruby we will miss you when you go back to the bottom of your pond

Hoonercat wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I might need some pointers though

Fair enough - go back and read over my posts, Gregor's and Secret Fly's from 2009 - It will take a few months but you will begin to see a theme occur. Avoid Lost in Wales, Mikey, Beshocked and England'sGory as these are very sinister poster's who mean serious harm and offence and lack the subtlety that humour and occasional sarcastic banter can bring. In fact avoid at all costs.

No need, yourself and Gregor's transnational love-in is famous, the pair of you are a shining example to the rest of us    Good luck tomorrow, I reckon Wales are going to lick some ass

We're hoping for a place in Lions management team building team.

Warren, Schmidt, Ruby, Gregor, Edwards, with LonstinWales on the Oranges and Mikey as bag man. London Tiger was coach driver but he's had to pull out as his Mrs is having Kittens

Gwlad ..Water boy.

gregortree wrote:Gwlad ..Water boy.

He's been dropped - lost his bottle

Rubyguby

To be honest I think you've only become irritating since Wales won at the RWC.

Trying to make your signature since the RWC- perhaps it's your attempt at banter but to me it comes across as excessive smugness.

People like to mask offensive remarks and actions behind the word "banter" -it was just banter.... that's the excuse.

Ruby isn't that bad, I think he just gets carried away. He's certainly not like the wums that trawl the English threads with nothing but digs.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ruby isn't that bad, I think he just gets carried away. He's certainly not like the wums that trawl the English threads with nothing but digs.

Ruby is quite happy to take it as well as dish it out. Its an important difference....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ruby isn't that bad, I think he just gets carried away. He's certainly not like the wums that trawl the English threads with nothing but digs.

and the English babies who fill their knickers given half a chance to be upset

Gwlad wrote:Braggin rights, like going wide, must be earned. Those that are foolish enough to indulge pre coitus are likely to get something bitten off.

This is a classic line.  

Any doc who has ever worked A&E has stories about guys coming in with bite marks to their.....pre-coital situation.    From a number of years ago I recall a guy who was bloody, clearly with teeth marks and needed rapid surgery due to the proclivity of that particular body part to bleed very easily.  Still, there I was with a nurse and this guy.  I kept telling the nurse to 'hold it steady' so I could close the damn wounds.    She kept telling me to f**king hold it myself.   After stopping the blood and using stitches and cyanoacrylate spray, the question was how to apply the bandages.  You wrap it..........No, you f**king wrap it.   Well it seemed funny at the time.

Now, it must be said the way you wrote your comment implies you have had a bad pre-coital experience.  In the future I can recommend finding girls with removable dentures.  Safer that way.   And this way I don't have to touch anything I don't really want to touch............

Enjoy the weekend.

Grey.

doctor_grey wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Braggin rights, like going wide, must be earned. Those that are foolish enough to indulge pre coitus are likely to get something bitten off.

This is a classic line.  

Any doc who has ever worked A&E has stories about guys coming in with bite marks to their.....pre-coital situation.    From a number of years ago I recall a guy who was bloody, clearly with teeth marks and needed rapid surgery due to the proclivity of that particular body part to bleed very easily.  Still, there I was with a nurse and this guy.  I kept telling the nurse to 'hold it steady' so I could close the damn wounds.    She kept telling me to f**king hold it myself.   After stopping the blood and using stitches and cyanoacrylate spray, the question was how to apply the bandages.  You wrap it..........No, you f**king wrap it.   Well it seemed funny at the time.  

Now, it must be said the way you wrote your comment implies you have had a bad pre-coital experience.  In the future I can recommend finding girls with removable dentures.  Safer that way.   And this way I don't have to touch anything I don't really want to touch............

Enjoy the weekend.

Grey.

I haven't but thanks for the thought. Though there are times when i worry having heard you shouldnt have it in there when she gets her kicks as there can be a jaw clenching issue. In you case maybe you should have given it a bit of a stroke as if it were, ahem, proud, it would have been easier to get the stitches in and you could dine out on that story for your whole life

Anyway this is all very interesting, absolutely nothing to do with rugby but a very satisfying diversion.

Oi beshocked. I dount Launchbury would have had that 40!

Lancaster v Jones.

What's the difference on current standings?

Jones was refreshingly honest that his needless replacements caused the poor last quarter, get the sense he'll learn from mistakes like that unlike Lancaster who seemed to have set times for subs.

That's true hammer

Good win for England. Some issues still not sorted yet though.

Despite the obvious work needed at BR and centre – it’s the weakness around the OHs is stifling England at the moment. Sorry to all you Fordaholics but the guy is currently a bit of liability – send him back to his club until he re-finds his form/confidence. He’s not helped by a SH who passes like a girl and an IC who's making him look redundant.

Ironically Robshaw and Haskell look pretty good, missed when they were replaced. But Cole is still way off his best. And Eddie has to take responsibility for doing a ‘Lancaster’ with the rather green bench. And his selection of a big guy in the centre who's not ready. And I believe Joseph was playing - didn't see him tbh.

Itoje is a monster who will do serious damage for years to come and Kruis was excellent. Launchbury has his work cut out to get back in.

And the back 3 were excellent.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lancaster v Jones.

What's the difference on current standings?  

Jones has won 4/5 Six Nations encounters, which is what Lancaster's team managed to do every year. If we lose next week, but take the title, then Jones will have matched Johnson' record, and gone one better than Lancaster, Robinson, and Ashton, who all fell short by big and small margins.

If England claim an elusive Grand Slam, then Jones will have the same number of clean sweeps as Woodward. A perfect record in his first Six Nations will match what Gatland achieved with Wales in 2008 (although he already had experience in the competition with Ireland).

A lot of pundits are already giving the match next week to England but I think we saw enough yesterday to show ways in which England can fall short again. Let's see if Jones does a better job at preparing them for the challenge than his predecessors.

So, does Gatty have competition for the Lions coaching job?

Would England give him a year off?

Rugby Fan.

I think where England fell short yesterday was when they started to bring on replacments when their was no need too.

I think Jones will learn from this. why try and fix some thing when it is not broken. ( do not make subs when tje team is playing well)

I expect a different approach next week from England, they or rather EJ will not take any think for granted. England will have to play the same way the played in the first 60 minutes yesterday for the whole 80. next week.

The further we get the better Jones seems and the wiser his decisions seem. I think he got his team to execute a perfect plan against Wales yesterday - Wales are so predictable but its been difficult for other teams to find the right tactics to neutralise them. Jones did this yesterday.

Well he's managed to do what we've done in the last few years, with the added bonus of others not matching their normal offerings so we get the Championship! Big question now if how he deals with Marler. I have no doubt he'd be out of the team if Lancaster was still here; in my mind he should defintiely be dropped without waiting for any disciplinary hearings. Mullan in for me, Vunipola in the team.

We've had that sort of hold over Wales in the past 3 or 4 games now.

Have to mention the elephant in the room despite the 6N win....

Ford has been absolute toilet all tournament...lacking confidence, lacking composure. I do think he could do with a break over the summer, give Cips a few games.

Farrell has been a different player under Jones, some lovely distribution at times. Definitely deserves the 10 shirt if Tuilagi is going to be brought into the centres.

Where Eddie has scored over SL (so far that is) is a simpler more direct game-plan that the team seems comfortable with.

What he hasn’t improved yet is the BR balance issue and a settled IC – although the BR seems a work in progress. He has also added a new problem at OH with shoe-horning OF in at IC and keeping a below par Ford at FH! And I've yet to be convinced with Manu at 12. Plus the bench is still an issue (as was seen on Saturday), mostly I guess because it’s so green.

But England were never as poor as the RWC suggested and I’m afraid most of the NH has stagnated a bit. Still, it’s early days for Eddie, and personally I’ll take the simpler game-plan and 4/4 so far.

"Ah Ruby we will miss you when you go back to the bottom of your pond"

That reminds me where is Guppy fish?

Is he still at the bottom of his pond?

Sin é wrote:So, does Gatty have competition for the Lions coaching job?

Would England give him a year off?

I would be seriously surprised if Eddie would give that idea a single second thought.

To be honest I don't think Jones has done anything spectacular. Having a decent set piece is literally playing Hartley and keeping Youngs out the matchday 23. Playing Itoje has been a smart move and in fairness I don't think SL would have done so... he would have brought back Launchbury for this game (he was big about experienced players in tough matches).
He has dropped a couple of guys who SL liked but seemed to be simply running through the motions a little. Outsiders can be quite frank about this and refreshen situations where coaches would over time have emotional attachments with players i.e. belief in certain players from past times.

fa0019 wrote:To be honest I don't think Jones has done anything spectacular. Having a decent set piece is literally playing Hartley and keeping Youngs out the matchday 23. Playing Itoje has been a smart move and in fairness I don't think SL would have done so... he would have brought back Launchbury for this game (he was big about experienced players in tough matches).
He has dropped a couple of guys who SL liked but seemed to be simply running through the motions a little. Outsiders can be quite frank about this and refreshen situations where coaches would over time have emotional attachments with players i.e. belief in certain players from past times.

I agree. SL would have had Launchbury + Lawes (if fit) and Kruis on the bench. Itoje would have played for Sarries on Saturday.

I think the opposite, Lancaster was always quick to play younger players as soon as he thought they were ready. Farrell, Ford, Watson, Nowell, Joseph all chosen. Given Itoje was named checked 5 years ago think it's safe to say he'd have been included.

Lets not pretend shall we, Lancaster flat lined a long long time ago. He was the epitome of a stuffed shirt.

Now if Jones is going to take us on the much hoped for long march to victory, (lets call that consistent top 3 position) then I would say that we are only really in the foothills at present. We might all have a spring in our step, but everyone knows it really, there's a long way to go yet and that I think is really exciting.

Eddie is different in so many ways and its the little changes that seem to make a big collective difference on the pitch. What is clear is that Eddie analyses the opposition and tailors his game plans/selections to get the best effect and hopefully the right result. Yes, people will say 'don't all coaches do that?' Well, yes they do but are they as good at it as Eddie (and his team of coaches) is? It doesn't look like it.

Eddie did a lot of analysis on Scotland during the WC when he said his boys were going to destroy the Scots.

Eddie will have a long way to fall when he trips himself up, and truly....that first trip-up nearly happened at the weekend. Wales almost rubbished his best laid plans for containing them. He knows how close he came to losing the strategy battle on that one.

No life is never all that relaxed for any coach - save for the New Zealand one, who seem to eternally be on an armchair ride.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Where Eddie has scored over SL (so far that is) is a simpler more direct game-plan that the team seems comfortable with.

What he hasn’t improved yet is the BR balance issue and a settled IC – although the BR seems a work in progress. He has also added a new problem at OH with shoe-horning OF in at IC and keeping a below par Ford at FH! And I've yet to be convinced with Manu at 12. Plus the bench is still an issue (as was seen on Saturday), mostly I guess because it’s so green.

But England were never as poor as the RWC suggested and I’m afraid most of the NH has stagnated a bit. Still, it’s early days for Eddie, and personally I’ll take the simpler game-plan and 4/4 so far.

And yet they now have a 6n title. Imagine when they fix those issues.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well he's managed to do what we've done in the last few years, with the added bonus of others not matching their normal offerings so we get the Championship! Big question now if how he deals with Marler. I have no doubt he'd be out of the team if Lancaster was still here; in my mind he should defintiely be dropped without waiting for any disciplinary hearings. Mullan in for me, Vunipola in the team.

Thankfully Lancaster isn't still here and Marler will be in the squad if he's available, dropping players before disciplinary hearings is a tad ridiculous, hardly worked out well during the world cup did it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Where Eddie has scored over SL (so far that is) is a simpler more direct game-plan that the team seems comfortable with.

What he hasn’t improved yet is the BR balance issue and a settled IC – although the BR seems a work in progress. He has also added a new problem at OH with shoe-horning OF in at IC and keeping a below par Ford at FH! And I've yet to be convinced with Manu at 12. Plus the bench is still an issue (as was seen on Saturday), mostly I guess because it’s so green.

But England were never as poor as the RWC suggested and I’m afraid most of the NH has stagnated a bit. Still, it’s early days for Eddie, and personally I’ll take the simpler game-plan and 4/4 so far.

And yet they now have a 6n title. Imagine when they fix those issues.

It feels that he has identified his long term solution to the IC issue with Manu and Slade - he has made no secret that he didn't feel the other options were yet up to scratch hence he put Farrell in there. Devoto and Hill were guys who had either performed strongly up until the squad was selected or caught his eye with their skill set, he didn't try to sugar coat it when asked why Farrell was picked ahead of them though.

Hopefully one (or both) of them work out better there than the previous long term solution did - 36.

Re back row balance it seems that his selection of a more dynamic second row has helped shine a light on the fact that it wasn't just the back row being outplayed at the breakdown! For all the talk of Itoje it has been just as significant that Kruis has come on so much this season. Last season he was solid in contact, had a good work rate and was a strong jumper. This term for Sarries (and now England) he has been carrying far more aggressively, running the line-out fantastically and still showing up well in defence.

I'm hoping that Clifford starts getting more game time over the summer tour. Kvesic would be a great guy to counter the Aussie style with 2 7s as well but it seems that he will need to start carrying more again for Eddie to select him.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:...dropping players before disciplinary hearings is a tad ridiculous, hardly worked out well during the world cup did it.

When did Lancaster drop a player before he had appeared at a disciplinary hearing?

Hartley was dropped after his hearing. Specifically, because his ban ruled him out of the first match. Tuilagi was dropped after he he told Lancaster he was pleading guilty to a criminal offence. Cipriani wasn't dropped because no charges had been brought while he was with the squad.

It was more in reference to not taking Hartley at all which is for me the biggest mistake he made.

If we do win a Grand Slam this year - and no-one should take that for granted - it will feel a little odd. Not because it's been so long, and I've forgotten how to react, but because this team doesn't yet feel like it's full of class.

When Carling's side won back-to-back Grand Slams, after blowing a chance in 1990, and Johnson's side eventually won, after blowing 4 chances in a row, I felt they were teams bursting with talent who had finally remembered their lines.

Somehow, the individual players in today's England don't always seem to stand out. In 2013, the starting Lions side had only a 2 or 3 English, and it was hard to feel especially shortchanged. You'd imagine a side selected tomorrow would have more, but many might still lose out to their counterparts in other Home Nations teams.

It was easy to feel Carling's side had class, since many helped turn around the 1989 Lions tour, and they had begun to wallop other NH sides (which made 1990 Murrayfield such a nasty banana skin). Johnson's England dealt out some pastings too, as well as strong record against the SH, so those players also looked a cut above.

I was looking at a list players who got capped in Johnson's managerial tenure, and at the beginning of Lancaster's (an arbitrary period of 2009 - 2013). How many have really stepped up? This isn't an exhaustive list (there's one here) but look at these names:

Ben Foden, Matt Banahan, Chris Robshaw, Chris Ashton, Dan Cole, Ben Youngs, Courtney Lawes, Manu Tuilagi, Tom Wood, Brad Barritt, Owen Farrell, Geoff Parling, Ben Morgan, Tom Youngs, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Freddie Burns, Billy Twelvetrees, Kyle Eastmond, Joe Launchbury, Alex Goode, Jonny May, Marlon Yarde, Billy Vunipola.

There are a lot of fine players there, but a lot more who haven't left as much of a mark on the international scene as I would have hoped.

If we look at players selected from 2014, among them, we have

Maro Itoje, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson, Jamie George, George Ford, George Kruis, Kieran Brookes, Henry Slade.

A lot can change in a short space of time, but it's not inconceivable that seven of those players could be regular England starters, and some of them didn't even appear in the tournament.

I can't decide whether that's just the way the talent has been distributed over the years, or whether the more experienced players carry the taint of failure, which seems to diminish their reputation, perhaps unfairly. Meanwhile, the newer players look good, but any optimism about their class is tempered because we've been here before.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well he's managed to do what we've done in the last few years, with the added bonus of others not matching their normal offerings so we get the Championship! Big question now if how he deals with Marler. I have no doubt he'd be out of the team if Lancaster was still here; in my mind he should defintiely be dropped without waiting for any disciplinary hearings. Mullan in for me, Vunipola in the team.

Thankfully Lancaster isn't still here and Marler will be in the squad if he's available, dropping players before disciplinary hearings is a tad ridiculous, hardly worked out well during the world cup did it.

Disagree completely in this scenario. Clear and admitted racist abuse has to be seen to be punished. If not by the citing process Jones or the RFU simly have to say he's not available for selection.

king_carlos wrote:

It feels that he has identified his long term solution to the IC issue with Manu and Slade - he has made no secret that he didn't feel the other options were yet up to scratch hence he put Farrell in there. Devoto and Hill were guys who had either performed strongly up until the squad was selected or caught his eye with their skill set, he didn't try to sugar coat it when asked why Farrell was picked ahead of them though.

Hopefully one (or both) of them work out better there than the previous long term solution did - 36.

Re back row balance it seems that his selection of a more dynamic second row has helped shine a light on the fact that it wasn't just the back row being outplayed at the breakdown! For all the talk of Itoje it has been just as significant that Kruis has come on so much this season. Last season he was solid in contact, had a good work rate and was a strong jumper. This term for Sarries (and now England) he has been carrying far more aggressively, running the line-out fantastically and still showing up well in defence.

I'm hoping that Clifford starts getting more game time over the summer tour. Kvesic would be a great guy to counter the Aussie style with 2 7s as well but it seems that he will need to start carrying more again for Eddie to select him.

I don't think we need to change anything with the pack over the summer apart from maybe flipping Clifford and Haskell around to give the former some more game time. Haskell and Robshaw playing the way they are at the moment, backed up by Itoje/Kruis is the best combo we have to counter Pocock/Hooper.